IRC log for #koha, 2009-12-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time	Nick	Message
00:43	brendan	@wunder 93117
00:43	munin	brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 13.6�C (4:42 PM PST on December 02, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 71%. Dew Point: 8.0�C. Pressure: 29.90 in 1012.4 hPa (Falling).
00:50	chris	back
00:50	imp	wb
00:54	chris	thanks
00:56	brendan	later #koha
00:58	chris	cya brendan
01:10		brendan left #koha
01:10		wizzyrea left #koha
01:25		joetho joined #koha
01:30		brendan joined #koha
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02:05		joetho joined #koha
02:27	pianohacker	nengard++ # for ui cleanup patches
02:33	chris_n2	@wunder 28334
02:34	munin	chris_n2: The current temperature in Erwin, North Carolina is 19.0�C (9:20 PM EST on December 02, 2009). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 17.0�C. Pressure: 29.56 in 1001 hPa (Steady). Tornado Watch 791 in effect until 4 am EST Thursday...
02:34	chris_n2	ouch
02:34		looks like a long night... *sigh*
03:08		joetho left #koha
03:18		Genji joined #koha
03:23	pianohacker	chris_n2: good luck! I hope your house is still on the ground in the mornin'~
03:23		Amit joined #koha
03:23	Amit	hi brendan, chris_n2, chris
03:23	chris_n2	me too.... or maybe I'll be in kansas with wizzyrea
03:23		hi Amit
03:29	pianohacker	hi, Amit
03:29	Amit	heya pianohakcer
03:29		pianohacker: i have done offline circulation
03:30	pianohacker	Amit: yay!
03:30		What needed to be done?
03:31	Amit	run only create_koc_db.pl script
03:31		it gives borrowers.db
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04:31	crackjack	is there a how-to about notificaton sending in KOHA
04:32	Amit	heya crackjack
04:32	brendan	hi amit
04:32	crackjack	hello all
04:32	Amit	heya brendan
04:33	crackjack	any idea about the notification sending in KOHA 3.0.3
04:35	Amit	overdues notice
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04:56	Amit	heya Genji
04:59	crackjack	I mean overdue_notices and advance_notices
05:00		i have written it in the crontab....it calculates the fines.....but doesnot send the overdue_notices
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05:12	crackjack	any help about the overdue_notices????I want to send mail for any overdue in KOHA
05:25		paul_p left #koha
05:28	chris_n2	g'night #koha
05:32	crackjack	i desperately need help regarding the overdue notices problems
05:41		don't we have some how-tos of overdue notices sending in KOHA
05:44		Amit left #koha
05:44	chris	we have the manual and the documentation in the cronjob, you have set up the notices and set up the triggers, and the cronjob to send the mail is runnin?
05:44		http://koha.org/documentation/[…]3.2/tools/notices
05:46		you have cron running overdue_notices.pl and process_message_queue.pl and have done triggers in the notices section in tools?
05:47		Amit joined #koha
05:52	crackjack	ya
05:53	chris	well then they should run, thats how everyone else has done it
05:53	crackjack	I first made an overdue amount making an issue in the backdate...then I setup the trigers in the koha trigger section....then I setup the crontab
05:53	chris	you have verified those cronjobs are running and that your system can send mail?
05:54		and you set up the notice too?
05:54	crackjack	I have attached images with my mail in the mailing list aswell
05:54	chris	try running the scripts by hand
05:54	crackjack	I have verfied that the cronjobs are running becaouse it calculates the fines fron the same cronjobs
05:55	chris	yes
05:55		that only verifies the fines one is running
05:55	crackjack	I have tried running the scripts manually but they give no results
05:55	chris	check the message queue table in the database
05:55	crackjack	it takes abt 3-4 seconds to return me the shell again
05:55		where to check the database???
05:56	chris	just run the overdues one (with the -t switch)
05:56	crackjack	the table message_queue is blank
05:57	chris	then check that table
05:57		if you run it with -t and the table is still blank (before running hte process_message_queue.pl)
05:57		and its still blank
05:58	crackjack	ok I ran ./overdue_notices.pl -t
05:58		the table is still blank
05:58	Amit	chris: I think template problem in overdues notices
05:58	chris	and you had set up the environment variables
05:59		Amit: you would get an error on the commandline if it was that
05:59	crackjack	should I set it up again now???
05:59	Amit	yes
05:59	chris	and there is no error, so its not that amit
05:59		its just koha doesnt think it should be generating notices for today
05:59	Amit	sory no
05:59	chris	so we have to figure out what is set up wrong
05:59	Amit	my overdues notices running fine
06:01	chris	crackjack: try it without the -t
06:01		and see if you get any rows in the message queue
06:01	crackjack	ok
06:01	chris	actually try -v
06:02		it should give you some info about what it is doing
06:02	Amit	$PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/overdue_notices.pl -t
06:02		$PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/process_message_queue.pl
06:02		$PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/process_message_queue.pl -v
06:02	crackjack	I tried both -t and wothout -t ... no rows in the table yet
06:03	chris	right can you try without and with -v
06:03		without -t and with -v
06:04	crackjack	ya...with -v it gave a lot of output.....
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06:05	chris	yeah dont paste it in here
06:05	crackjack	with -v it gave a lot of output
06:05	chris	paste it at http://paste.workbuffer.org
06:05	crackjack	ok
06:05	pastebot	"crackjack" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "./overdue_notice -v" (179 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/73
06:06	crackjack	did you check the images that I attached to my mail in the mailing list??
06:07	chris	right you have no overdues
06:07	crackjack	I think I have made some silly mistakes
06:07	chris	you can see that because everything returns 0 rows
06:07	crackjack	ya
06:07		but I have about $2000 fines and its abt 2 yrs due
06:07		in my koha
06:07	chris	thats too long
06:08		make it due 2 ago
06:08	crackjack	I think I need to redo the process......can I get some step by step guide or something here?
06:08	chris	no
06:08		its just your item is too overdue
06:09	crackjack	I have folllowed the guide at the Nabble and KOHA
06:09	chris	they dont send notices everyday for the same item
06:09	crackjack	oh
06:09		ok
06:09	chris	so 2 years old is just way to old
06:09		when is your trigger for? 1 day overdue?
06:09	crackjack	so shall I make an item with abt 7 days overdue?
06:10	chris	try one just due yesterday or the day before
06:10		7 would be too long too
06:10		unless you have a trigger for 7
06:10	crackjack	I didn't get that????
06:11		please clarify a bit
06:11	chris	overdues run when the triggers match
06:12		Amit left #koha
06:12	chris	they dont just keep sending notices every day
06:13		they only send them when the conditions match your trigger, cna you try making a book due back yesterday
06:13		and then try running it with -v again
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06:16	crackjack	ok
06:23		I just made an issue for yesterday
06:23		so should I run fines.pl now??
06:24	chris	no need
06:25		fines are totally separate to overdue notices
06:25		just try the overdue_notices.pl -v
06:26	crackjack	it still says 0 rows returned
06:27	chris	for all of them?
06:27		ok edit the date_due and make it due the date before yesterday
06:29	crackjack	I have made the due_date 2nd Dec and today's date as 4th Dec
06:30	chris	?
06:30		you changed the system time on your computer?
06:30	crackjack	did I make something wrong???
06:30		ya...
06:30	chris	that might work
06:30		give it a try
06:31	crackjack	where else should I change the time
06:31		I already tried to run it...its the same result
06:31	chris	i wouldnt change the system time
06:32		i would just update the row in the issues table
06:32		change the date_due column
06:32	crackjack	ohk
06:32		shall I make it again??
06:33	chris	categories.overduenoticerequired=1
06:33		can you do a select overduenoticerequired from categories;
06:34		do they all have 1 ?
06:34	crackjack	where should I look for this??
06:35	chris	run that query in mysql
06:35		select overduenoticerequired from categories;
06:36	crackjack	there are altogether 12 entries out of them 10 are 1s
06:36	chris	right
06:37		so the question now is
06:37		does the borrower who has the book out
06:37		belong to one of the 2 that arent set to 1
06:37		you can see at /cgi-bin/koha/admin/categorie.pl
06:38		your categories ... does the borrower who has the item out belong to one that has overdue notices switched on?
06:38	crackjack	how do I kow that?
06:39	chris	who has the item out?
06:39		look at their member record in koha
06:40		and find out what category they belong to
06:40	crackjack	The name iof the patron in Nitesh Rijal and it's a student category
06:41	chris	and does that category has overdue notices set?
06:41	pastebot	"crackjack" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "member_records" (8 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/74
06:42	crackjack	ya...its like:
06:43		student delay (1) advance_notice delay (2) item sue reminder delay(3) overdue_notices
06:43		I can send you the screenshot if needed
06:44	chris	hmm thats the wrong screen
06:44		go to administration
06:44		then to patron categories
06:45		then click on the student category and check overdue notices is set to yes
06:48	crackjack	it is set to yes
06:49		i just looked at it
06:52	Ropuch	Morning #koha
07:01	Amit	heya Ropuch
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07:47	kf	good morning #koha :)
07:49	Ropuch	Hi kf :)
07:54	Amit	heya kf
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08:13	zico	hi
08:13		i want to delete "My library" from my koha staff client page....
08:14		what i need to do? as... when i go to delete this... it shows me the error...."Library cannot be deleted because there are patrons using that library"
08:15	chris	you need to switch the homebranch of the patrons using it to another library
08:16	zico	chris: the thing is... i don`t have any patron there even
08:16		so... patron is null
08:16	chris	id just delete it in the db then
08:16	Ropuch	Hi chris
08:17	chris	hi Ropuch
08:17	Genji	okay, im back.
08:18		Kivutar joined #koha
08:21	zico	chris: i cannot understand
08:21		what do i need to delete? id?
08:22	chris	the branch from the branch table
08:24	zico	ok
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08:49	Amit	heya nicomo
08:53	chris	wow joetho is up early
08:53	kf	hi hdl_laptop, nicomo, joetho :)
08:54	imp	moin moin
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08:59	chris	nicomo_laptop: you about?
08:59	nicomo_laptop	yes
08:59		hi chris
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08:59	chris	heya, if you want to try something, on aim message kohabot
08:59		and say
08:59		issued items
09:00		actually you will need to login to it first, then try that
09:01	nicomo_laptop	can't now
09:01		in meetings more or less all day
09:01		but will tomorrow
09:03	kf	morgen imp
09:09	chris	k
09:14	magnusenger	chris: head not quite working... what is the url for cloning the bot?
09:16	chris	you wll need to tweak it a lot to make it work for you
09:16		but its git clone git://git.workbuffer.org/kohabot.git
09:16		im still working on it, rewriting it to use ils-di
09:17		at the mo you can authenticate as an opac user, and find out what books you have out
09:17		thats all
09:17	imp	fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
09:18	chris	ah sorry
09:18		but its git clone git://git.workbuffer.org/git/kohabot.git
09:19	imp	:)
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09:23	magnusenger	chris: thanks! I havn't really got the time to play with it now, but i'd really like to do it anyway... ;-)
09:23		Does the search work?
09:24	chris	not yet, it used to with 2.2
09:24	magnusenger	how do you implement the search? Against SRU or Z39.50?
09:24	chris	ils-di
09:25		koha's restful api, thats how it does the authen, and gets the borrower data etc, it can also place holds, renew items etc
09:26		its what SOPAC uses
09:26		search hasn't been implemented yet, i will implement it as part of the work on the bot
09:26		but using that api you could build something for wave very easy
09:26		have you seen ils-di?
09:27		http://opac.koha.workbuffer.or[…]bin/koha/ilsdi.pl
09:27		check that out
09:27		Kivutar did most of it i think, and its neat
09:29		a neat feature missing from LEK
09:30	Kivutar	chris: what is LEK?
09:30	chris	liblimes proprietary fork of koha
09:31	magnusenger	i've heard about ils-di, but not looked into the details
09:31		didn't know search was a part of it!
09:32	chris	that page explains all the things it can do, some not implemented yet, but i plan to implement search for it
09:32	kf	I think 3.2 will have many nice features not available in lek csv output, batch editing/deleting of items... :)
09:32	chris	*nod*
09:33	Kivutar	the new offline circulation is nice too (for 3.4 ?)
09:33	kf	and there is a lot more :)
09:34		new acq (I think they have to pay more to use GetIt?)
09:34	Genji	Will we see the end of LEK someday?
09:34	magnusenger	chris: the linked bullet points are implemented, i guess?
09:34	chris	yup
09:34		click on one, and it gives you instructions and example output
09:35	magnusenger	ok
09:35		but impleneting search through SRU shouldn't be too hard either?
09:35		(as long as it's turned on, of course)
09:35	chris	Genji: no one knows, only if liblime's clients refuse it i think
09:35		yep, but ils-di is a webservice and a published one
09:36	Genji	there might come a time when koha has all the features of LEK, and more, eh?
09:36	chris	already has way more
09:37	magnusenger	chris: but SRU is just a call to a URL too, and you get MARCXML in return...
09:37	chris	but enough about LEK, i shouldnt have brought it up, its pointless to talk about it, we cant do anything about it
09:37		magnusenger: while that might sound good to librarians
09:37	Genji	so..... uhh... its just due to misinformation, that liblime is able to bring people into LEK?
09:37	chris	magnusenger: 99% of the world doesnt care about SRU or MARC in any form
09:38		if you give them an api that doesnt force them to have to learn that
09:38		you make it more likely they will use it
09:38	magnusenger	but it looks like at least GetRecords returns marcxml too?
09:38	chris	if you want it to
09:38	magnusenger	ah
09:39		any other formats?
09:39	chris	currently koha just returns marcxml, but it could do mods, or more usefully for a lot of people dublin core
09:39		since we have code to do that already elsewhere in the opac
09:40	magnusenger	(and of course i agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't expect people outside libraries who want to play with our data to learn marc!)
09:41	chris	also, i like that its on port 80
09:41		which means less mucking around with firewalls ;)
09:42	magnusenger	good point!
09:42		wave bots *have* to run on Google App Engine, which can only get things from 80 and another port i forget...
09:42	chris	yep
09:43		app engine is pretty neat
09:43	magnusenger	come to think of it though: SRU can return dc, marcxml, mods, rss2, rdfdc and utils formats *today* ;-)
09:43	chris	yeah but you have to understand SRU
09:44		which is not as arcane as z39.50
09:44		but its close
09:44	magnusenger	which isn't all that hard, i think? (at least compared with understnding marc ;-)
09:45	chris	yep, but it does mean running a separate service
09:45	magnusenger	on the server?
09:45	chris	and you can download dc, mods extra from the opac
09:45		so its probably very lttle time to do it from ilsdi
09:45	magnusenger	yeah, the functionality is probably there
09:46	chris	yeah you have to enable sru/sw and put it on a public port
09:46	magnusenger	the more ways to get at the data the better!
09:46	chris	yep
09:46	magnusenger	this is one huge advantage Koha has over the proprietary systems here in norway!
09:46	chris	library types can use sru, the rest of the world can have a restful api
09:46	magnusenger	way to go! ;-)
09:47	chris	biblibre have already done 80% of it
09:47		its just adding the other 20
09:47	magnusenger	biblibre++
09:48		zico joined #koha
09:49	zico	chris: i tried to delete..but
09:49		this error came
09:49	kf	koha foundation meeting today?
09:49	zico	mysql + #1451 - Cannot delete or update a parent row: a foreign key constraint fails
09:49	Genji	sounds like you do have some patrons using that branch, zico.
09:50	zico	Genji: but, there is no patron there!!! :( the patron r empty
09:50	Genji	hmm......
09:51	chris	probably an item then
09:51	* Genji	nods.
09:51	chris	has that branch as its home branch
09:52	Genji	Interesting, this constraint concept. stops people from deleting data by mistake.
09:52	kf	search groups?
09:52	chris	kf: yep foundation meeting in about 9 hours
09:53	kf	chris: thx :)
09:53	Genji	hmm.... 7am nzd?
09:53		8am?
09:53	chris	8am
09:53	* Genji	nods.
09:55	magnusenger	and 8pm in my neck of the woods... ;-)
09:57	* chris	goes to sleep
09:57	magnusenger	sleep tight!
09:57	kf	good night chris#!
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12:03	kf	lunch :)
12:03	Ropuch	[;
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12:06	Ropuch	guten Hunger, kf [;
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12:40	kf	Ropuch: thx :)
12:52		nil joined #koha
12:52	nil	hello
12:53	imp	heyho
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13:04	chris_n	g'morning all you code mills ;-)
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13:10	heupink	hi. I'm trying to migrate from 2.2.5 to 3.0.4, and having trouble. My question: can I run update22to30.pl as many times as I need?
13:12		I'm importing the 2.2.5 mysql database in my 3.0.4 server, and then try to update the database 'format'.
13:13	jwagner	Good morning all.  chris_n, what was the result of your rebase db problems yesterday?  I had to leave in the middle of it.
13:16	hdl_laptop	updatedatabase ?
13:17	jwagner	hdl_laptop, yes -- I think it was the new head with the biblibre patches
13:17	chris_n	jwagner: still awaiting hdl's thoughts
13:18	pastebot	"hdl_laptop" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "updatedatabase" (53 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/75
13:18	jwagner	Your dire warnings did at least save me from disaster yesterday :-)  I had a site visit and I would normally have done a git pull/git rebase master as part of the trip.  Good thing I knew not to try that before I went!
13:18	hdl_laptop	here you are.
13:19		on my todo list
13:20	heupink	hdl_laptop: is that meant for me?
13:20	hdl_laptop	heupink: no, meant for jwagner.
13:20	heupink	hmm. :( thought so...
13:20	hdl_laptop	sorry
13:20	nil	hello
13:20	heupink	haha, no problem.
13:21	nil	hello
13:21		i need some help for koha
13:21	hdl_laptop	heupink : MARC21 or USMARC ?
13:21	heupink	would be nice if someone could also tell me if running 'update2230.pl' 3, 4 times in a row has bad sideeffects...
13:21		unimarc
13:22	chris_n	jwagner: glad my misery benefited someone :-)
13:22	hdl_laptop	I would say you had better save your database before trying and start from that.
13:22	jwagner	Believe me, I appreciate it!  And sympathize!!!  I gather there are some new Perl dependencies as well -- hdl_laptop or someone, is there a list of those?
13:24	heupink	i have saved my database, installing on different server anyway, thats not the problem.
13:24		it's jst: I'm getting errors, and am trying to solve them one by one,
13:24		and wonder if after every adjustment I can simple run the script again
13:27	jwagner	nil, what's your question?
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13:29	hdl_laptop	@later tell chris_n some more time. I will work on that tonight
13:29	munin	hdl_laptop: The operation succeeded.
13:29	chris_n	tnx hdl_laptop
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13:36	Schuster	Morning all
13:36	hdl_laptop	hi Schuster
13:36	chris_n	hi Schuster
13:42	jwagner	morning, schuster.  Sorry I had to miss the KUDOS meeting yesterday.
13:43		nil left #koha
13:46	Schuster	It was a day of meetings wow I understand.  I've posted notes everywhere I can think of!  If you'll be at ALA they are going to try and have a face to face.
13:48		owen-away joined #koha
13:49	owen-away	Hi #koha, sorry I missed all the meetings yesterday
13:49		owen-away is now known as owen
13:50	* owen	was taking care of a sick baby
13:50	chris_n	owen: sorry to hear that
13:51	owen	Nothing serious, but it tends to put Koha out of one's mind.
13:51	* chris_n	understands that
13:54	nengard	anyone else having fun testing all of the new awesome biblibre additions??
13:54		I'm testing/prepping for docs/patching
13:55	* chris_n	tries to shove a 283M file through gmail
13:55	* owen	is excited to see what's new
13:55	gmcharlt	chris_n: eek! would that be destined for me?
13:55	nengard	owen - make sure you update your Perl modules - at first everything was broken for me cause I forgot that step :) hehe
13:55		nicomo_laptop joined #koha
13:55	gmcharlt	if so, I can provide space for you to sftp it instead
13:55	chris_n	gmcharlt: your intuition is startling ;-)
13:55		yes, gmail is borking
13:56	gmcharlt	ok, hang on
13:56	owen	nengard: What did you have to update?
13:56	nengard	hiya gmcharlt - sorry for all of the patches yesterday - well not really sorry - but sorry for the extra work for you :)
13:56		owen ... i forget now :) hehe - according to my About Koha page I was missing 3 modules
13:57		I was in a bad mood last night and doing things way way too fast - chris might remember - since he was helping so much :)
13:57	jwagner	nengard or gmcharlt or hdl_laptop, can we get a list of the new Perl modules needed?
13:57	nengard	hang on - i'll tell you want I was missing
13:57	chris_n	jwagner: I think its only one
13:58	hdl_laptop	hi gmcharlt.
13:58	nengard	I don't know if these are ones i was missing all along or cause of the update but last night I installed these:
13:58		PDF::Table
13:58		PDF::API2::Simple  (which I'm still missing)
13:59		Lingua::Stem::Snowball
13:59		collum joined #koha
13:59	nengard	and Number::Format
14:00	jwagner	Thanks.  We have some sites that host locally so we'll warn them to go ahead & install those.
14:00	chris_n	jwagner: [Bug 3828] Add dependency Authen::CAS::Client
14:00	munin	04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3828 major, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharltgmail.com, NEW, Missing Dependency In Makefile.PL
14:01	jwagner	Thanks.  I'd suggest an email to the listserv(s) warning people about all these before others start trying to update.
14:01	Schuster	Thanks for that list nengard.
14:02	nengard	np - hope that's all of them - guess I'll find out if I hit more errors
14:02		for some reason I can't install PDF::API2::Simple
14:02	Schuster	I responded to your question about fastbib - or whatever that was, but I suspect jwagner can maybe talk more about that new cataloging preference than I.
14:03	chris_n	actually, most of the ones nengard lists have been in Makefile.PL for a while
14:04	nengard	oops - bad me :) hehe
14:04	chris_n	no, not bad
14:04		just catching up ;-)
14:05		the problem with running over git is that you don't run Makefile.PL every time and so can get behind on deps especially if you do not use certain portions of code
14:06	jwagner	Schuster, our fastadd feature hasn't gotten submitted yet -- I suspect this is a BibLibre version?
14:06	chris_n	it would be nice to have some other mechanism for ensuring that deps are installed as added when running over git
14:06	hdl_laptop	will do
14:06		jwagner: yes we did some work on that.
14:07	nengard	jwagner - yes it is
14:08	hdl_laptop	based on addbiblio with fastadd framework
14:08	owen	chris_n: Is there a certain process one should follow to check for new dependencies?
14:09	hdl_laptop	I will send a message on the lists about that.
14:09	chris_n	owen: you can check the 'about' page I think
14:09	nengard	hdl_laptop - i submitted a bug regarding that -- I think it's great! but you shouldn't be able to delete the FastAdd Framework because of the links to it and the permissions issues
14:09	hdl_laptop	it is a food start.
14:10		I saw your bug report.
14:10	nengard	do you agree? or am I wrong in my assumptions of how it works?
14:10	hdl_laptop	No you are right.
14:11		But not that straight forward to do.
14:12		should not be a blocker.
14:12	chris_n	owen: the 'Perl Modules' will list the version or 'module is missing'... although I do not see the new module there, so I may be wrong
14:14		nengard: fwiw, I was missing PDF::API2::Simple too :-)
14:19	nengard	chris_n can you get it to install?
14:19		hdl_laptop - if i were to delete the FA framework what would happen? if we'd have broken links and things then that's why i said blocker - didn't want to delete it to test :) hehe
14:20	chris_n	nengard: using cpan it seems to install fine... not sure about the package version
14:21	nengard	yeah - tried cpan ... need to go back and read what it's telling me
14:24	hdl_laptop	nengard: mmm... I think links are shown only whether framework is there.
14:24	nengard	okey dokey
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14:55	owen	Okay folks, here's what I'm getting after fetching the newly approved stuff and rebasing: "Can't locate YAML.pm in @INC"
14:57		|Lupin| joined #koha
14:57	|Lupin|	hello, everybody
14:58		hdl_laptop left #koha
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15:04		hilongo joined #koha
15:04	hilongo	hello there ...
15:05	|Lupin|	hi hilongo
15:08	hdl_laptop1	owen : cpanp install YAML
15:10	owen	"Transfer truncated: only  out of 162997 bytes received"
15:12	* owen	tries sudo apt-get install libyaml-perl and it seems to work
15:12	owen	If it works it works? Or not?
15:13	hdl_laptop1	yes
15:13		brendan left #koha
15:14	owen	The confusing thing for me is guessing the name of what I should install based on the name of what's missing :|
15:15	* owen	is learning
15:15	hdl_laptop1	yes debian and perl are quite funny
15:18	nengard	owen chris told me about packages.debian.org -- searching there sometimes helps you find the name you want to install
15:21	owen	Thanks nengard that helps a lot
15:21	nengard	:)
15:22		just don't make the mistake i did - which is searching with the colons you see on the about page - search with hyphens instead
15:22	owen	nengard: No luck for you on getting PDF::API2::Simple installed?
15:23	nengard	nope
15:23	owen	The about page says I'm missing it too
15:23	nengard	not yet
15:23	owen	packages.debian.org lists libpdf-api2-perl
15:24	nengard	yeah - but my system says i already have the newest version -- and koha says i'm missing it
15:25	|Lupin|	till soon folks !
15:25		|Lupin| left #koha
15:26	owen	I don't see a message on the about page about Lingua::Stem::Snowball, but I couldn't search without it
15:26	nengard	yeah owen - i had the same issue
15:27		but i don't know how to add things to that about page - or do we just report it as ab ug
15:27		?
15:27	hdl_laptop1	owen nengard it is in order to use stemming
15:27	owen	hdl_laptop1: Do you know why it wasn't reported missing on the about page?
15:27	hdl_laptop1	I think it is not in Makefile.PL
15:27	nengard	should it be? should we report a but that it shoudl be in there?
15:28	hdl_laptop1	file a bug. assign to me.
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15:38	owen	Hi wizzyrea
15:40		brendan joined #koha
15:41	wizzyrea	mornin owen
15:42		Nate joined #koha
15:44	nengard	hdl_laptop1 -- done - bug 3842 reported and assigned to you
15:44	munin	04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3842 major, P5, ---, henridamienkoha-fr.org, NEW, Lingua::Stem::Snowball Missing from Makefile.PL
15:44	* owen	is thinking about whether the staff client cart link should be somewhere else in the toolbar
15:47		Donaran joined #koha
15:47	wizzyrea	the cart... on the staff client...
15:48		i might be missing it... what screen is it on?
15:51	owen	It's in the latest round of updates to HEAD from BibLibre
15:52	jwagner	chris_n, still online?
15:54		hilongo left #koha
15:58	wizzyrea	ohhhh yea that explains it
16:00		reiko joined #koha
16:00	chris_n	jwagner: here now
16:00	reiko	hi
16:00	jwagner	chris_n, one of our users was trying to scan a barcode into the new label creator, & got an error like Can't use an undefined value as a HASH reference at kohaclone/labels/label-item-search.pl line 129
16:01		I know you had some fixes to that, but the version of head they're at should have them all, I thought.  Do you recognize that one?
16:01	chris_n	I've not encountered that one that I can recall
16:02		label-item-search.pl... scanning a barcode to search for an item?
16:02	jwagner	Yes.  I can send you the screenshot if you want.  We've done a lot of development on this system.  Haven't touched the label scripts, but we may be butting heads elsewhere in one of the .pm files?
16:03	chris_n	jwagner: maybe a description of the steps to reproduce the error
16:04		I can look at it later today as we use that code here in production
16:05	jwagner	What's your email address?
16:05	chris_n	I think all of the bugfixes I've submitted have made it into the HEAD
16:05		cnighswongerfoundations.edu
16:05	jwagner	Thanks, will send.
16:06	chris_n	bbiab
16:09	reiko	hi, i'm having troubles with authority searching, do i need to configure authority-zebra-indexdefs.xsl in order to search? i have some custom auth types.
16:11		http://img340.imageshack.us/im[…]628/capturezw.png <- heres a screen of how some authorities show up when i search for them
16:21	nengard	wizzyea and own i thought it was for new acq - but it's not - it's just a cart for staff to make it easier to perform bulk actions - kind of cool :)
16:22	hdl_laptop1	nengard: thanks
16:23	nengard	hdl_laptop1 it's like christmas morning with this new update to koha - all kinds of presents under the hood :) hehe
16:23	hdl_laptop1	yes... Some gifts are fine, others less fine ;)
16:24		Kivutar left #koha
16:24	nengard	hdl_laptop1 I have not found many major issues - mostly tiny things that I have been able to fix on my own
16:24		:)
16:24	hdl_laptop1	nengard+++
16:25	jwagner	So long as there are no lumps of coal :-)  I can't wait to take a look myself, but I have too much else going on right now.
16:25	nengard	I do have one complaint - and that is that the commit messages were too brief - meaning I can't always figure out what a new section is for
16:26	wizzyrea	nengard that sounds sweet
16:26	hdl_laptop1	Yes. too brief commit message--.... But We shall try and improve that.
16:27		we are already asking for commits to be more verbose.
16:27		(internally)
16:28		But we had no guidelines for that... And time to develop is somtimes way too short.
16:29		and sometimes, it is quite difficult to know WHAT to tell to be thorough and fully understood.
16:32	kf	I also had a problem to understand some things
16:33		in the new acq module
16:33		sekjal joined #koha
16:34	kf	but I think nicole's documentation will fix that :)
16:35	imp	hdl_laptop1: with subversion, you can setup procommit hooks, they can do stuff like enforcing longer commitmessages (just exploring the stuff myself right now because 3/5 from my team tend to write _nothing_ in there...)
16:50		Nate left #koha
16:51	wizzyrea	brendan: have you ever set up the SIP server for Koha?
16:52		pianohacker joined #koha
16:53	brendan	I've messed with it before
16:53		what's up
16:53		heya pianohacker
16:53	pianohacker	hi brendan
16:53	brendan	errrr...  Dr. pianohacker
16:54	jwagner	hey, pianohacker, how are the fingers? Haven't heard recently.
16:54	pianohacker	If I'm going to be a doctor, I probably need something better than a sweatshirt and old corduroys
16:55		the fingers are doing excellent. I have my thumb taped up after finding out the joint bends back a bit too far now, but other than that they're great
16:55		How are you guys?
16:55	brendan	I'd say that's a sure thing pianohacker
16:58	jwagner	But surely the thumb would give you better reach on the keyboard that way :-)
16:59		Nate joined #koha
16:59	pianohacker	hehe. right now, unless it's taped it can bend rather sickeningly far back
16:59		my mom, as a pt, is morally opposed to this
17:01	jwagner	Details, details....
17:01	wizzyrea	brendan: i was going to ask you if there was server user configuration,  but I found what i needed in the manual
17:01		lol
17:02	brendan	good deal wizzyrea
17:03	owen	Anyone here ever configured VirtualBox so that they can access their guest OS from the host?
17:05	wizzyrea	I did, there's some trick to it
17:05	pianohacker	owen: http://markmail.org/thread/6xwumgcczgpl3q5z might help
17:05		I'm interested, as I'm setting up a virtualbox koha install at the moment myself
17:06	wizzyrea	sec, lemme look for the voodoo required
17:06	kf	bye #koha - bbl for the meeting
17:06		kf left #koha
17:07	wizzyrea	this was the post I followed
17:07		http://mydebian.blogdns.org/?p=148
17:07	owen	Okay, that's what I was just looking at
17:07		The VBoxManage commands...those are meant to be run on the guest system?
17:08	wizzyrea	on the host
17:09		you have to do similar forwarding rules for 80 and 8080
17:09		if you are using those
17:09		so I did 88 and 8888
17:09		for example
17:09	owen	Okay, I guess I just was guessing incorrectly what was meant by "Guest machine name."
17:09	wizzyrea	so from my host machine I would do localhost:8888 for the staff interface
17:10	owen	wizzyrea: Just replacing 2222 with 88 and 8888?
17:10	wizzyrea	right, i'll example, sec
17:11		VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/HostPort" 8888
17:11	nengard	owen - someone said you can use FTP - install filezilla server on one and filezilla on the other
17:11		but i have never gotten it to work
17:11	wizzyrea	VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/GuestPort" 80
17:12		er, that first should be 88, so localhost:88 forwards to 80 on the guest
17:12		then you would change the http80 to http8080 and do the same
17:13		and a protocol for each of those, so:
17:13		VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/Protocol" TCP
17:16	pastebot	"wizzyrea" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "virtualbox extradata settings, from my vbox config at /Users/liz/Library/Virtual​Box/Machines/Debian-Koha" (15 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/76
17:16	wizzyrea	this may help :P
17:16		i spent several hours trying to figure it out
17:22		i'm guessing atz wrote the bit in the manual on SIP?
17:22		(sounds like him)
17:23	pianohacker	Probably
17:25	wizzyrea	man, is that guy ever going to stop saving my sorry butt. I doubt it.
17:26	pianohacker	hehe
17:29	owen	wizzyrea: the example you gave above uses "http80" and the example in your pasted sample uses "guestapache" Is that significant?
17:30	wizzyrea	yea, actually, each port has a distinctive name
17:30		it's arbitrary, but must be unique for each set
17:30		mine has a bunch of extra ports configured
17:30		for some testing I was doing
17:31		CGI758 joined #koha
17:31	chris_n	jwagner: I sent a reply
17:32		not sure if it helps or not, however
17:32	jwagner	Muchas gracias in advance!
17:33	hdl_laptop1	imp could be done also on git
17:38	brendan	@wunder 93117
17:38	munin	brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 11.5�C (9:34 AM PST on December 03, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 85%. Dew Point: 9.0�C. Pressure: 30.02 in 1016.5 hPa (Rising).
17:41	owen	wizzyrea: Sorry, I'm completely confused.
17:41		reiko left #koha
17:41	owen	Can we go back over this?
17:42		Genji joined #koha
17:42	wizzyrea	yep
17:42	owen	I'm looking at the xml file
17:42	wizzyrea	which port are you wanting and what's your vbox name?
17:43	owen	I've got the OPAC running on 80 and the staff client on 8080
17:44	* chris	goes to catch the early bus to get to work in time for the meeting, i hope i can remember the alarm code
17:46		bebbi joined #koha
17:47	wizzyrea	ok, I would delete all of the entries you've got in there
17:48	pastebot	"wizzyrea" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "run each line once to add the settings" (9 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/77
17:48	wizzyrea	in your terminal
17:49	owen	Is "http80" an arbitrary (descriptive) name?
17:49	wizzyrea	yep
17:49		(the bright side is that the next time I need to do this I'll have no problem remembering ^.^)
17:51		jransom joined #koha
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17:57	chris	before i run down the hill
17:57		it is 1 hour til the meeting right?
17:57	wizzyrea	i thought so but joann seems to think it's in 5 mins
17:57	chris	jo just scared me with her tweet, according to my calculations there is still 1 hour to go
17:58	owen	I thought 1 hour too
17:58	chris	yeah thats right it is, just worked it out again
17:58		nz is utc + 13
17:58		7pm = 8am
17:58		cool i will go catch my bus
17:58		bbiab
18:00	nengard	okay - taking a break from testing and patching - need to run an errand
18:00	* nengard	be back later
18:03		tomascohen left #koha
18:03	owen	Trying to restart Apache... Why would I be getting the error "apachectl: command not found" ?
18:04		Joann joined #koha
18:04	wizzyrea	/etc/init.d/apache2 restart and you get that?
18:06	imp	owen: do you have a apache2ctl? (maybe it's just an old initscript)
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18:08	Joann	so is the meeting in an hour?
18:09	Genji	~50 mins
18:09	Joann	thanks
18:10		George - sorry I got the time conversion wrong .... you can make Shirley breakfast now :)
18:11		its 8am NZ time
18:11	GeorgeSue	Thanks Jo:)
18:11	pianohacker	Wait a minute, I thought it was us US peoples' job to get time conversions wrong
18:14	sekjal	When we regain koha.org, perhaps we should consider some kind of time localizer tool for displaying meeting times.
18:14	brendan	no matter what - someone will still get it wrong
18:14	* brendan	has been wrong more than once
18:15	sekjal	true enough; the conversion isn't the only factor
18:15	brendan	:)
18:15		hey sekjal
18:15	sekjal	hey brendan
18:15	brendan	I was wondering how your planning for course reserves was going
18:16	sekjal	we're going to be forming a task force to evaluate what we need out of a course reserves tool.
18:16		interestingly enough, I was just talking with our head of Circ, and had some ideas
18:17		like allowing professors to request items be moved to course reserves directly through the OPAC
18:17		and allowing course reserves, and other items, to be "bookable"
18:17	brendan	sounds very useful
18:18		will be excited to see some of it
18:18	sekjal	this would really help with our equipment and room reservations, which are a larger and larger percentage of the circ desk's business each day
18:18	pianohacker	sekjal: Would PC reservations be useful to integrate into all this? Just curious, as I have a system that's been languishing for a while
18:19	sekjal	pianohacker: I think the development could be generalized enough to do that, yes
18:19		we have a graphics area we want to be able to book, and also gather usage stats on
18:20	wizzyrea	i love this line of discussion
18:20	sekjal	I think just adding a field to Item Types to allow for it to be bookable, then add the necessary tables and logic to keep the reservations organized
18:20		have built in iCal standard export, so people can subscribe to an item's "calendar"
18:21	wizzyrea	hot!
18:21	jwagner	Speaking of 'bookable' -- Unicorn has a bookings module for things like laptops, projectors, whatever that people want to reserve for a particular time.  Might that be useful to integrate?
18:21	sekjal	gtg.  phone call with prospective Koha library
18:21	jwagner	Or did I miss that you were already including that :-)
18:21		cait joined #koha
18:22	cait	hi #koha
18:22	imp	heyho cait :)
18:25	cait	bist du eigentlich mal nicht hier? ;)
18:34		owen is now known as owen-away
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18:47		Joann is now known as jransom
18:51	jransom	can anyone suggest a good alternative to Deep Freeze for locking down public internet PCs?
18:52	wizzyrea	deepfreeze is the perennial favorite here
18:52		nicomo joined #koha
18:52	jransom	We've used it for years and its rock solid - but I cannot get the new version to work with our new PCs.
18:52	Genji	I'd suggest linux springing from VM's.
18:52	wizzyrea	well I don't know what microsoft is doing with the shared computer toolkit
18:52	jransom	causes them to lockup - so we take it off and they are fine
18:52	wizzyrea	if you are forced in the MS direction
18:53	jransom	oh yeah - we are looking today in desperation :(
18:53	Genji	or a linux thinnet server.
18:53	wizzyrea	curious what kind of computers are they?
18:54	hdl_laptop	hi
18:54		jransom: kyle hall developped libki
18:54	jransom	will have to find the specs - brb
18:55	wizzyrea	there's also groovix, if you're going the linux route
18:55		or userful
18:55	jransom	they are windows running xp
18:55	wizzyrea	curious if you've contacted faronics with your issues
18:55	jransom	(public got grumpy when we had linux ones)
18:56		will do that today as well
18:56		owen-away is now known as owen
18:56	wizzyrea	the last time we had trouble with deepfreeze they had a patch for us in a couple of days
18:56		and a new version like a week later
18:56		francharb left #koha
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18:56		Genjimoto is now known as Genji
18:56	wizzyrea	our results may not be typical
18:57	chris	back
18:57	jransom	oh that is good news - we just dicovered what we think may be the source of the problem last night
18:57	Genji	Welcome back, did you trigger any alarms?
18:59		IrmaCalyx joined #koha
19:00	chris	nope
19:00		all good
19:00	pianohacker	jransom: We use SteadyState; its mildly fussy but does its main job of resetting the hard drive quite well
19:00	thd	jransom: Why do you want to lock down the PCs?
19:00	jransom	thanks
19:00	wizzyrea	yea that's part of the shared computer toolkit right?
19:01		jdavidb is now known as jdavidb_meeting
19:01	Genji	jransom: you definately have to use Windows?
19:01	pianohacker	wizzyrea: SteadyState's the new name for it
19:01	wizzyrea	right
19:01	jransom	restores the harddrive to a pristine state after each reboot
19:01	wizzyrea	it's free, right?
19:01	pianohacker	yup
19:01	jransom	these are public pcs
19:01	wizzyrea	we tried it, but we didn't like it :(
19:01		kyle joined #koha
19:02	pianohacker	wizzyrea: what dealbreaker problems did you have?
19:02	wizzyrea	rather our librarians didn't like it
19:02		something about too hard to use
19:02	Genji	Yet, I rememmber Foxton libary using linux on their public pcs.
19:02	IrmaCalyx	g'day everyone
19:02	imp	20:00
19:02		Marijana joined #koha
19:02	brendan	goodday Irma
19:02	chris_n	hi IrmaCalyx
19:02	kyle	hello all
19:03	pianohacker	Definitely easier to admin. Depends how much energy you want to invest in the conversion, tho :)
19:03		cait joined #koha
19:03	Marijana	hello from Croatia
19:03	pianohacker	hi, all
19:03	wizzyrea	maybe I will look at it again
19:04	owen	We use SteadyState too, although I'm not involved with that aspect of things
19:04	jransom	Genji : yeah we had to take them off eventually - but in the new library I'm planning 50% linux 50% windows to start with ...
19:04		kyle left #koha
19:04	Genji	jransom: Reasons for taking off the linux?
19:05	jransom	our opacs are linux thinclients and we trouble free motoring there
19:05		kyle joined #koha
19:05	pianohacker	we actually use steadystate for just protecting the hard drive; we use winlock professional for locking down settings since it has more options and can be unlocked if need be
19:05		vickiteal joined #koha
19:05	owen	Hi vickiteal
19:05	jransom	public frustration at what they found when they sat down - unfamiliarity etc
19:05	Genji	Ah.
19:05		dpavlin joined #koha
19:05	chris	ok, its about that time
19:05	vickiteal	Hi.
19:06	pianohacker	wizzyrea: I can definitely imagine your librarians complaining about the settings lockdown part of steadystate; it's not the best part of the program
19:06		</pac-discussion>
19:06	chris	do we have any volunteers to chair the meeting?
19:06		speak now
19:06	thd	should jransom not be the degault chair?
19:06	chris	or you will end up with me doing it
19:06	jransom	can i nomiate Owen
19:06	chris	thd: jransom is presenting lots of stuff today
19:07		hard to do both
19:07	jransom	not me
19:07	owen	I can if you'd like, but I'm not up on the agenda
19:07		pie joined #koha
19:07	chris_n	http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09dec03
19:08	pianohacker	owen: ping
19:08	owen	Okay, crib sheet prepared.
19:08	chris	ok, well lets do a quick round of introductions first
19:08		and then its over to owen :)
19:09	jransom	Joann Ransom - HLT, NZ
19:09	wizzyrea	Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Library System
19:09	* chris_n	Chris Nighswonger, FBC
19:09	cait	Katrin Fischer, BSZ Konstanz
19:09	nicomo	Nicolas Morin, BibLibre
19:09	chris	Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ
19:09	sekjal	Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries
19:09	pie	Andrew Chilton, Catalyst IT, NZ
19:09	hdl_laptop	Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre
19:09	* brendan	<-- Brendan A. Gallagher, ByWater Solutions, USA
19:09	Nate	Nate Curulla ByWater Solutions, USA
19:09	* pianohacker	= Jesse Weaver, John C. Fremont Library District
19:09	vickiteal	Vicki Teal Lovely, South Central Library System, Madison, WI, US
19:10	IrmaCalyx	CAYX information essentials (Sydney), Aus.
19:10	owen	Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library, USA
19:10	thd	Thomas Dukleth , Agogme, New York City
19:10	magnusenger	Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
19:10	kyle	Kyle Hall, Crawford County Federated Library System, PA, USA
19:10	dpavlin	dpavlin, Marijana - Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, Croatia
19:10	imp	Martin Janitschke - ccc hannover
19:11	jwagner	Jane Wagner, PTFS
19:11	owen	Welcome, everyone!
19:11		First on the agenda: Report on forming HLT Koha foundation committee
19:12	GeorgeSue	George Sue Horowhenua Libary Trust The new lamb on the block, Greetings everyone
19:12	jransom	ok, well we have had communication back and forwards, but nothing constructive.
19:12	chris	jransom: its the committee
19:12	jransom	and we made it clear we were working to this date
19:12	chris	next item is the negotiations
19:13		cm joined #koha
19:13	chris	so i think this agenda item is the time to introduce George
19:13		and talk about the koha subcommittee of HLT etc
19:14	jransom	oops
19:14		sorry - nerves :)
19:14	chris	:)
19:14	jransom	I would like to introduce Georeg Sue
19:15		he has been appointed by HLT to work with the Koha community with forming the HLT Koha subcommitte
19:15		and to carry out these negotiations  with liblime first.
19:15		he was chair when developed koha
19:16	GeorgeSue	Hi everyone I am new to the keyboard  so you will have to bear with me
19:16	jransom	led us through that - and we love him deraly :)
19:16		dearly (even)
19:16	owen	What function does the HLT Koha subcommittee perform, and how should it be composed?
19:17	chris	yep, we all owe a great deal of thanks to George, and the other trustees for bringing Koha into existence, I feel it fitting he is helping us out now also
19:17	IrmaCalyx	indeed!
19:18	jransom	the HLT Koha subcommittee does not exist yet. We thought it was best to develop that with the community. I have asked Bob Birchall to start working on a paper to get us started - but we are winging it at the moment :)
19:18		MickeyC joined #koha
19:18		slef3g joined #koha
19:18	owen	jransom: Do you see it as being composed of HLT people + Koha community people?
19:19	jransom	absolutely.
19:19		MickeyC left #koha
19:19	jransom	dominated by community people
19:19	chris_n	how many seats should be on it?
19:19	slef3g	MJRay, software.coop member
19:19		MJRay, software.coop member
19:19	chris	i think this is what we are still in the process of deciding chris_n
19:20	owen	I'm still not sure I understand what the function of the committee is
19:20	jransom	to be decided with the community,
19:20	chris	so far to date, HLT have appointed george to work from their end
19:20		Mickey joined #koha
19:20	jransom	we are not interested in throwing our weight around.
19:20		the koha community will continue to be driven by the koha community
19:21	chris	as far as i see it, they will just be looking into making sure the community property is being looked after
19:21	jransom	and the community should help decide how the subcommittee should function
19:21	owen	So chris you see it as a group of folks who will keep an eye on what's going on in the Koha world and bring attention to potential problems?
19:22	chris	yup
19:22		oversight
19:22		big picture stuff
19:22		not day to day running of the project
19:22	chris_n	so what things does oversight involve?
19:22	wizzyrea	and potentially overseeing the formation of an independent foundation, right?
19:22	jransom	I suggest we take Bob's first thoughts thinking paper and put it up somewhere and we play around with it until we get something to take back to the Trust. They may wish to tweak it - or not.
19:22	chris	id see them as doing things like finding a good place to host www.koha.org etc
19:23		wizzyrea: yep helping to facillitate discussion aroudn that
19:23		ftherese joined #koha
19:23	chris	jransom: that sounds like a good idea, lets do it nice and publicly too
19:23	jransom	I see us as being an umbrella organisation. the real work will continue to be done by the community
19:23		as it always has done.
19:23		really - its business as usual.
19:23	ftherese	I was in here yesterday asking a question, but no one was able to answer before I had to leave
19:23		so let me try again
19:24	pianohacker	ftherese: currently in middle of meeting
19:24	chris	ftherese: we are in a meeting
19:24	owen	ftherese: You've caught us in the middle of a meeting
19:24	ftherese	sorry
19:24		later
19:24	pianohacker	barbershop trio, even
19:24	chris	hang around, and ask later ;)
19:24	ftherese	how long?
19:24	chris	at least an hour i imagine
19:24	ftherese	ok
19:25	jransom	George: please feel free to step in if I am misrepresenting the Trusts perceived role in this ok
19:25	chris_n	jransom: is Bob's paper available or can it be made available?
19:25	chris	it doesnt exist yet chris_n
19:25		but im sure ti will be available for all when it does
19:25	chris_n	so do we table this item until it is?
19:25	chris	yep i think we can report it as
19:26	owen	It does sound like we need to get a framework together for the discussion
19:26	chris	George has been appointed to work from HLT end, Bob is doing a draft framework
19:26	jransom	Would that be ok? It will be up maybe today but probably next week. I'll get Chris to put it somewhere in the koha public space
19:26	chris_n	it seems that the paper will provide that framework
19:26	chris	and we will revisit when that is done
19:26	owen	Would a wiki page be suitable?
19:26	hdl_laptop	IrmaCalyx: any hint on when it should be out ?
19:27	chris_n	should we put is other than the wiki... somewhere were the community has control?
19:27	IrmaCalyx	I am looking for it now...
19:27	jransom	i have it my inbox as a first draft but have not given it serious thought yet - happy to post it now if Bob is
19:27	GeorgeSue	I would just like to reassure everyone that I am here to help you guys carry on the excelent work you are doing for us and the world,
19:27	chris	chris_n: lets put it a few places
19:27	chris_n	+1
19:27		CGI758 left #koha
19:28	owen	chris: should we wait for an announcement from you on that?
19:28	slef3g	wiki.software.coop exists but is login required atm. can prob make a public subsite easy
19:29	chris	owen: yep that works
19:29	slef3g	sorry slow. stood in train station
19:29	chris	so bob to write a paper, chris to put it somewhere, then we revisit this item
19:29		sound ok?
19:29	* chris_n	seconds the motion
19:30	owen	And part of everyone's homework is to consider what role this committee should play and how it should be composed.
19:30	brendan	+1
19:30	thd	+1
19:30	wizzyrea	+1
19:30	nicomo	+1
19:30	chris	yes, all ideas gratefully received and considered
19:30	hdl_laptop	+1
19:30	sekjal	+1
19:30	chris	id also like to put a motion of thanks to Jo, Bob and George for getting us to this point
19:30	jransom	and please don't be expecting the Trust to dictate how this will work and lead here: Koha is still as much a community led project as it ever was.
19:31	chris_n	+1
19:31	Mickey	+1
19:31	owen	+1
19:31	slef3g	+1
19:31	cait	+1
19:31	wizzyrea	+1
19:31	imp	+1
19:31	Nate	+1
19:31		Donaran left #koha
19:31	IrmaCalyx	+1
19:31	owen	Okay, are we ready for item 2? Report on status of negotiations over assignment of trademarks and domains
19:31	Genji	jransom++
19:31		GeorgeSue++
19:31		..... Whos bob?
19:31	jransom	thanks everyone
19:32	IrmaCalyx	Bob Birchall from CALYX
19:32	jransom	Bob Birchall, Calyx. 1 of the advisiors who has helped us for the last month
19:32		so, we have been communicating with Josh.
19:32	chris	he has a great deal of valuable experience we are benefitting from
19:32	Genji	liblime.josh?
19:32	jransom	yes.
19:32	pianohacker	Genji: yes, joshua ferraro of liblime
19:33	jransom	and to no conclusion.
19:33		We made it clear we were working to this date, and it very freindly and open, ie asking what he needed to make this work.
19:33	owen	jransom: How do you feel the inquiry was received?
19:34	jransom	Our opinion is that he is just not interested.
19:34		there has been no last minute flurry of stalling, horse trading etc.
19:34	Mickey	please amplify/clarify
19:34	chris_n	jransom: so basically no response?
19:34	jransom	There has been 2 responses.
19:35	chris	well once response repeated?
19:35	jransom	Stalling, challenging the Trusts position
19:35		Chris: essentially yes.
19:35	owen	Challenging the Trust's position?
19:35	jransom	we have asserted ourselves as the communitys chosen nonprofit organisation.
19:36	chris_n	jransom: so what direction does the negotiating committee recommend at this point?
19:36	jransom	ie elected by the community.
19:36		we recommend abandoning the negotiations.
19:36	nicomo	jransom: could you be more specific as to the response you've had?
19:36	jransom	and we have a suggestion to go forward with.
19:36	vickiteal	Has he said no, or is he evading the issue?
19:37	jransom	He is stalling, Not no.
19:37	hdl_laptop	Is he challenging your role ?
19:37	jransom	but asking unreasonable questions. about our future plans
19:37	thd	jransom: Was there nothing from LibLime which could imply maybe under condition X?
19:37	jransom	nothing at all.
19:37		richard joined #koha
19:37	richard	hi
19:37	jransom	no mention of money
19:37	chris	i have seen the responses, as have galen and Bob
19:37		as we were elected to help jo in the last meeting
19:38	slef3g	I saw some more llek sales pr. doesn't seem like they should be short of time.money
19:38		dcage left #koha
19:38	jransom	I think he stalling with no intention of playing nicely.
19:39		confirmed in a letter from a university librarian who asked him specifically about this at a conference.
19:39	slef3g	so I agree it's most likely will. +1 to recommend
19:39	chris	and no, there is nothing in his message to suggest they will
19:39	gmcharlt	I concur
19:39	wizzyrea	so, if we are abandoning negotiations, what's the next step?
19:39	chris_n	jransom: can we hear the suggestions?
19:39	jransom	I would like tomake a suggestion
19:39		sure
19:40		Chris, Galen and I had a talk after the last dev meeting.
19:40		and we think we should rename / rebrand Koha as Open Koha and launch the new site with the openkoha.org domain.
19:41		and launch it to coincide with the release of 3.2 in january.
19:41	chris	well, we have only 2 options as i see it
19:41		move on
19:41	thd	What about Free Koha?
19:41	chris	with something like free koha, or open koha
19:41		or get into court battles ... .eeeewwww yc
19:41	kyle	OpenKoha has a nice ring to it.
19:41	imp	thd: free sounds like free-ware, not open as opensource is
19:41	jransom	openkoha.net and openkoha.org have been claimed by a friend for us already (many months ago)
19:41	imp	(imho)
19:42	magnusenger	i have to agree with imp there
19:42	* nicomo	agrees with imp
19:42	* owen	too
19:42	imp	jransom: nice step :)
19:42	jransom	January is 10 years to the month since we launched Koha
19:42	pianohacker	We might have to table discussion of the final name, though my personal vote is for OpenKoha or Open Koha :)
19:42	chris	i personally much prefer the term free software, to open source, but im willing to live with openkoha
19:42	sekjal	I recognize the practicality of changing the name, but its REALLY irksome
19:42	chris_n	very
19:42	thd	imp: Free as in freedom, as in Free Software
19:42	wizzyrea	with sekjal on that, like OpenKoha, if we have to
19:43	jransom	and the new release is the perfect promo for "Koha carrrys on without liblime"
19:43	Genji	OpenKoha... or FreeKoha.. but I think its saying it twice.
19:43	slef3g	no to open. yes to shared or free or community or sustainable
19:43	dpavlin	OpenKoha might be abbriviated to OK which is... OK :-)
19:43	chris	ill still talk about koha as being free software, not opensource .. since the actions of companies like Liblime have soured the term open source
19:43	gmcharlt	LibreKoha?  # just muddying the waters ;)
19:43	chris_n	we should have lots of PR when we do this
19:43	Mickey	whatever let's not get bogged down right now over nomenclature
19:43	pianohacker	right
19:43		CGI942 joined #koha
19:43	nicomo	gmcharlt: too Galic
19:43	jransom	yep - need maximum promo
19:43	pianohacker	could very easily be resolved by a poll, imho
19:43	jransom	press release. blog posts everywhere
19:43	chris	yep, the point is, that we think it might be time to call it a day and move on
19:43	slef3g	ok mickey
19:43	thd	imp: you can have open source without freedom to use, modify, redistribute your modified version
19:43	Genji	Koha = free in maori right?
19:43	imp	thd: don't get me wrong, but it's very hard to explain somebody that something is opensource and really open, freeware is something ugly, but those people tend to get the things wrong
19:43	jransom	library journal story
19:44		CGI942 left #koha
19:44	* chris_n	agrees with chris
19:44	gmcharlt	Genji: more like 'gift', though chris can explain the nuances better
19:44	jransom	(carrys on ignring everybody.. :)
19:44	Mickey	decision to move ahead with a rebranding is the q?
19:44	kyle	I believe Koha means 'A Gift'
19:44	jransom	and we rebrand it
19:44	chris	its a special type of gift
19:44	jransom	chris resurrects the previous website
19:44	thd	imp: people will get it wrong and I mean most people no matter what it is called
19:44	jransom	we update it
19:44		get the wiki and everything elase we can together
19:44	chris	a gift with some strings ... just like free software
19:45	* Genji	loves the original website. "Especially Rachel's origin of koha story."
19:45	chris	ok
19:45	sekjal	its going to be hard to get the community to agree on a new name, but its probably for the best
19:45	chris	this is probably paranoia
19:45		but now this is public
19:45	jransom	Chris: is your emplyer willing to commit resources to get a new site up?
19:45		question is, is it faesible to do this in time?
19:45	chris	can someone please get a copy of the wiki and bugzilla right now
19:45	thd	Genji++
19:46	owen	This is big decision folks, are we prepared to move forward on this plan just with the consensus of those present today?
19:46	pianohacker	Do we have an official date for 3.2 set? Didn't see it in the dev meeting notes, but I could have missed it
19:46	chris	owen; hell no
19:46		this is just the opinion of 3 people
19:46		myself included
19:46	Genji	chris: liblime could be scanning the realtime log, and may pull those two at any moment?
19:46	jransom	3.2 is  the perfect perfect opportunity to launch the new Koha
19:46	owen	Okay, then what's the next step?
19:46	chris	Genji: like i say paranoia
19:47	* owen	is feeling the same paranoia lately
19:47	jransom	is someone grabbing those 2 things?
19:47	imp	maybe the disscusion about a new name should be moved to the mailinglist? don't think it's critical right now (and doodle it later or something like that)
19:47	chris	the important point to decide is
19:47	pianohacker	Set up a poll with 2 questions: Whether to change name, and if so, ranking of choices?
19:47	Genji	How do I get an export of those two things?
19:47	nicomo	pianohacker: ++
19:47	chris	do we want to persist trying to get koha.org back from liblime
19:47		or do we call it a day, and work on a plan to move on
19:48		a possible plan being rebrand and launch in time for 3.2
19:48	chris_n	I'd say we leave the name with them and go our own way
19:48	hdl_laptop	i think we have to call it a day.
19:48	owen	At this point I think we have to rely on the advice of those who have been involved with the negotiations
19:48	wizzyrea	question: what would prevent a non open koha vendor from using openkoha code?
19:48	pianohacker	(above is just to continue precedent of using polls for decision making)
19:48	magnusenger	call it a day, move on, use energy on something constructive
19:48	Mickey	cost-benefit. is it worth a protracted fight? or not?
19:48	chris	wizzyrea: nothing and we dont want to
19:48	hdl_laptop	It's been some time now we are stuck.
19:48	Genji	Anyone grabbing the wiki and bugzilla? How is a full grab done?
19:48	owen	We don't even have any framework established for carrying out a court fight
19:48	gmcharlt	wizzyrea: chris has it
19:49	sekjal	I just tried wget -r on both; no dice
19:49	SelfishMan	I'm coming in late but it seems to me that changing the name will kill the reputation of koha
19:49	slef3g	doodle ok for majorities but bad at consensus building
19:49	chris	SelfishMan: the reputation of koha is currently being killed
19:49	imp	wizzyrea: you can choose a licence, which will (theoreticaly) force them to send their patches upstream
19:49	jransom	yep.
19:49	kyle	SelfishMan: I think the reputation of Koha will follow the community if it is said loud and clear. OpenKoha isn't much of a leap.
19:49	wizzyrea	imp: that's more of what I was getting at
19:50	pianohacker	imp: AGPL is a possibility, but I think it was regarded as a step too far in the other direction
19:50	Mickey	koha is stronger than its specific brand at this point; it has surpassed critical mass
19:50	Genji	sekjal: no dice?
19:50	hdl_laptop	slef3g: I don't think we have to make concensus on the name. majority is ok.
19:50	sekjal	I'm getting blocked by robots.txt, I think
19:50	jransom	and i think we have to be strong and assertive now and send a clear message that Koha Community is strong and determined to control our own destiny.
19:50	owen	If we start fresh with an identity that is owned by a foundation then it doesn't matter if a company doesn't want to share
19:50	Nate	Can we make the change in the name to come after the word "Koha"
19:50	owen	At least they can hijack the identity
19:50	imp	if somebody tells me what to mirror, i can try to get it
19:51	magnusenger	jransom++
19:51	vickiteal	May I make a suggestion?
19:51	Nate	like KohaCommunity
19:51	chris	vickiteal: go right ahead
19:51	kyle	I doubt anyone cares about the name as much as they care about the software functioning.
19:51	Nate	Never underestimate the power of branding
19:51	vickiteal	I'm wondering if we could give the LibLime customers some time to see if they could sway LibLime from relinquishing koha.org?
19:51	jransom	this willsend shockwaves through libraryland - people will hear about the new name :)
19:52	Genji	Can the wiki and bugzilla be exported in their native formats? or will we just have to do html dumps?
19:52	vickiteal	Is there are rush to make such a huge change?
19:52	chris	vickiteal: id love to believe they could, but so far they seem unable to shift them to even releasing the code :(
19:52		Marijana left #koha
19:52	wizzyrea	vickiteal I was thinking the same thing
19:52	owen	Genji: Let's save that discussion for later
19:52	Genji	owen: hopefully there is a later.
19:52	pianohacker	vickiteal: that _might_ have possibilities; my impression was that customer pressure was a part of the recent shift to lek, no?
19:52	chris	vickiteal: we ahve been locked out of www.koha.org for a year now
19:52	sekjal	Genji: changed my browser in wget, got better results
19:52	jransom	we have this huge promo - launch opportunity in 1 month to relaunch Koha.
19:52	chris	this isnt rushed, its positively glacial
19:52	vickiteal	I don't know that the customers have tried that hard yet.
19:52	wizzyrea	yea, except a lot of ... what she said
19:53	kyle	Nate: true, that is why I'm for OpenKoha. I suppose I was speaking as an existing Koha user :)
19:53	wizzyrea	we were waiting to see what the official outcome was
19:53	chris	liblime didnt just wake up 2 months ago and decide to stop playing nice, its been happening for over a year
19:53		i personally feel they have had more than enough time
19:53	owen	vickiteal: I don't have a good sense of what LibLime customers even think of all this, only a few data points
19:53	chris	but if others feel like we should wait longer
19:53		Marijana joined #koha
19:53		Marijana left #koha
19:53	chris	im happy to do so
19:53	jransom	the email I had from a LL university client was very sad
19:53	owen	Could they be persuaded to talk to LibLime, or do they not want to make waves?
19:54		Marijana joined #koha
19:54	SelfishMan	btw, I'm ripping wiki.koha.org now
19:54	owen	("they" in general)
19:54	nengard	i'm back
19:54	slef3g	hdl: disagree. consensus better
19:54	nengard	thought that would be quicker
19:54	jransom	If the community wishes to play the LL game for longer then so be it.
19:54	vickiteal	Owen: good question. I'm not even making a commitment, but I think we would like the opportunity to discuss with other customers.
19:54	sekjal	with any luck, the newly forming KUDOS can serve to promote the community in contrast to LL
19:54	chris_n	I think the only thing that will persuade LL at this point would be a mass exodus of customers
19:54	thd	If there is a serious concern about the US trademark. prepending a word will not change the issue.
19:55	owen	thd: What do you mean?
19:55	vickiteal	I undertand problem has been around for a while, but to me it still feels new.
19:55	jransom	But if we want to move forward we have a perfect opportunity to make a big splash.
19:55	Mickey	yes. what exactly does waiting gain us?
19:56	chris	my fear is, and after reading someones thesis last night, its even more real that liblime are trashing the reputation of koha
19:56	SelfishMan	kyle, chris: I don't doubt the reputation is being killed.  I guess I should have said "brand recognition" instead of reputation.  It has taken a long time to get local libraries to consider koha and changing the name will scare them away again.
19:56	owen	Alright everyone, let's focus on the next step
19:56	chris	i think the longer we stay, the more trashed it is getting
19:56		jdavidb_meeting is now known as jdavidb
19:56	thd	own: Open Koha would also use the US trademark just as much as Koha alone in the context of library software for which Koha is trademarked in the US.
19:56	kyle	chris++
19:56		richard is now known as rich-away
19:56	jransom	Chris ++
19:57	owen	How do we arrive at a communal decision on the identity-change issue?
19:57	slef3g	battery low. no recharge chance. sorry all
19:57	pianohacker	slef3g: Thanks for coming regardless
19:57	jransom	I would like to move that we do.
19:57	* chris_n	motions we move forward on identity change
19:57	vickiteal	I think rushing without exhausting all possibilities may do more harm to Koha, than to take another month or so to see if LL customers can do something.
19:57	kyle	If OpenKoha is too big of a gray area, I think another Maori would would suffice.
19:57	jransom	we have had a year of mucking around Vivky.
19:57	chris	i dont think we are rushing
19:57	vickiteal	If they decide not to, or there is no positivie outcome then at least you know that everything was tried.
19:57	jransom	how much longer do you think is reasonable?
19:57	nicomo	thd: a change of domain name doesn't resolve all the issues (like TM) but it solves pratical issues (the web site)
19:57	SelfishMan	I hate to say it, but I think we are screwed.  You guys are right, a name change is required.  Doing it with the next release would be the way to go
19:57	nengard	i'm with chris and jransom - we're not rushing
19:58	slef3g	kyle++
19:58	vickiteal	One month.
19:58	SelfishMan	maybe instead of the next 3.x go 4.0?
19:58	nicomo	vickiteal: dec. 25th?
19:58	owen	SelfishMan: LibLime has already done that :|
19:58	chris	naw its not a big feature release
19:58		its a performance clean up one, 3.4 is a perfect number ;)
19:58	kyle	SelfishMan, Chris: Then we go to 11!
19:58	chris_n	hehe
19:59	jransom	3.2 is a big release.
19:59	thd	nicomo: yes certainly the domain has to be solved and multiple domains can point to the same place even without a name distincion for the software
19:59	SelfishMan	I'm just thinking that incrementing the major version with a new name would "sell" better
19:59	jransom	and doing nothing means we continue with the website access problems,
19:59	owen	We need to have an up-or-down vote on whether to proceed with the identity change. Should that happen here, now, or under a more formal framework?
19:59	thd	I do fear changing the Koha part of the name on a practical basis for recognition.
20:00	kyle	If we ever get koha.org back, we could always redirect to the new 'home base' url
20:00	thd	Preending is fine
20:00	jransom	and with potential koha libraries landing on liblime when they are looking for koha community
20:00	chris	if vicki is confident liblime customers can sway joshua's mind
20:00	SelfishMan	owen: I could be wrong but it seems to me that the majority of the people that are heavily attached to the project are in this channel.  I say do it hear when the time comes
20:00	chris	i think we should give them time
20:00	jransom	kyle: my thoughts excatly
20:00	nicomo	jransom: yep, SEO for the new web site will have to be reaaally good
20:00	chris	but i fear that they have little chance in doing so :(
20:01		CGI529 joined #koha
20:01	chris_n	vikiteal: how do you propose to go about changing Josh's mind?
20:01	vickiteal	I am not confident. But, I think that we should be given the opportunity to discuss it and try. We had to wait to see what the Trust could do first.
20:01	SelfishMan	I know of a few local liblime customers that are terminating their contracts over this
20:01	chris	would 2 weeks be enough time vickiteal ?
20:01	pianohacker	vickiteal: Also, how much would you be pushing for?
20:01	vickiteal	Ask him.
20:01	pianohacker	(possibly)
20:01	owen	I think vickiteal should try.
20:01	jransom	Timely to announce now that Biblibre and HLT have started the process of transferring the EU Koha trademark over to HLT. At no cost to HLT.
20:01	chris_n	I think LL's customers have the teeth to do it, but I wonder about the practicality of showing them
20:01		CGI529 left #koha
20:02	vickiteal	Josh is going to be on vacation and will not be back until December 17th.
20:02	jransom	We have asked Josh for the community assets, and asked he needs to have in order to give back the domain name.
20:02	vickiteal	I guess we could commit to December 24th.
20:02	slef3g	last I saw that was only a tm attempt
20:03	chris	slef3g: ?
20:03	nicomo	eh eh slef3g I would have been disappointed not hearing from you on this
20:03	vickiteal	f someone could send me an email with what to ask for, I can discuss it with other customers and we can do our best.
20:03	chris	slef3g: whatever it is, its being transferred to HLT
20:03	pianohacker	vickiteal: if that works, would be an excellent noche buena gift :)
20:03	nicomo	I just filed the paperwork to transfer the TM process to HLT
20:03	wizzyrea	nicomo++
20:03	owen	nicomo++
20:03	nicomo	slef3g: want a copy?
20:03		:-)
20:03	slef3g	our coop is first vendor in uk and some other eu states
20:03	chris_n	nicomo++
20:03	slef3g	our coop is first vendor in uk and some other eu states
20:03	vickiteal	As I said, I'm not making promisies. Just want to try.
20:04	chris	you know the people who could fix all this right now
20:04		in 10 minutes
20:04		are the high ups in waldo
20:04	Genji	Wow. the wiki is huge.
20:04	vickiteal	I ahve to leave for another meeting, but I will stay logged in so I can read the rest of the meeting.
20:04	chris_n	chris: yup
20:04	chris	but they are the ones defending it
20:04	wizzyrea	do we know for sure they are defending the hijack of community koha assets?
20:04	sekjal	I've had contact with one Rob Karen at WALDO
20:04		I could try reigniting that discussion
20:04	chris	well they defended LEK
20:04	chris_n	chris: I wonder if they are not responsible for this mess in the final analysis
20:04	cait	i missed ben ide on the mailinglist lately
20:04	slef3g	it is a process not the finished tm. up or ll or more could object
20:04	wizzyrea	of course they did, they paid for it ^.^
20:05	chris	wizzyrea: my point entirely
20:05		ok, how about a vote
20:05	wizzyrea	but I'm not sure they have a stake in the koha community assets
20:05		only in LEK
20:05	chris_n	chris: on?
20:05	chris	should we give LL customers (led by vickiteal) until december 24
20:05		to try their hand
20:05	* chris_n	seconds the motion
20:05	chris	and persuading LL to see reason
20:05	thd	++
20:05	* owen	votes yes
20:05	wizzyrea	pitch it to waldo as it's taking away staff assets (time, attention) to deal with these community assets
20:05	sekjal	+1
20:06	chris	s/and/at/
20:06	cait	+1
20:06	nengard	I have to say this all confuses me - if the real koha is going to be openkoha and advertised as such - what value does koha.org have - why not just give it up and move on with things?
20:06	chris	+1
20:06	imp	1
20:06	nicomo	yes
20:06	imp	+1
20:06	Nate	+1 coca cola would fight tooth and nail for their name with good reason
20:06	kyle	A late thought, instead of having a version number battle, why not move to a date based versioning system like Ubuntu? Koha 9.12?
20:06	nengard	+1
20:06	owen	nengard: This is our last-ditch effort to avoid the identity change
20:06	* SelfishMan	votes yes
20:06	jransom	+1
20:06	* pianohacker	seconds the motion, with note that we might want to start discussions on naming and identity change regardless of outcome
20:06	SelfishMan	(if my vote even counts)
20:06	pianohacker	So we're ready
20:06	Genji	vickiteal++
20:06	chris	good idea pianohacker
20:06	wizzyrea	i vote yes
20:06	hdl_laptop	pianohacker++
20:06	owen	SelfishMan: Why wouldn't it?
20:07	jransom	pianohacker++
20:07	nengard	yeah - i get that - owen - I just don't get why LL is being so stubborn - if we change the name there is no value left in koha.org - so it's pointless to hold on to it so tightly
20:07		rhcl_away is now known as rhcl
20:07	nicomo	by the way, vickiteal's effort is not incompatible with our moving forward
20:07	pianohacker	s/start discussions/start discussions now/
20:07	thd	nengard:everything now points to koha .org all over the internet and those links are not going to change in any hury
20:07	owen	nengard: From their point of view theirs is the only one worth having
20:07	chris	and please if people could do nightly backups for the wiki and bugzilla that would stop me fearing so much
20:07	Mickey	sorry must leave best to all
20:07		Mickey left #koha
20:08	nengard	thd - we're a pretty noisy bunch we can get it to change pretty damn fast :)
20:08	chris	ok, next agenda item?
20:08	nengard	and owen - theirs is LEK - not koha ... but whatever - semanics
20:08	wizzyrea	nengard: it's equivalent in their minds
20:08	pianohacker	nengard: still good to have, if as nothing other than a redirector service, but we're getting ahead of ourselves
20:08	wizzyrea	and winning a branding battle is establishing those equivalents
20:08	sekjal	I think LL still really thinks they and their customers are definitive Koha community; hence the challenge to HLT
20:08	chris	wizzyrea: and in others .. thats the problem
20:08	owen	I think we're on to Item 5 on the Agenda (3 and 4 being moot apparently)
20:08	SelfishMan	So, is there an offical statement/description of what is happening to be passed on to those that aren't well versed in this whole issue?
20:09	IrmaCalyx	I vote yes
20:09	owen	Report on legal status of Ohio based Koha Foundation
20:09	nengard	pianohacker - oh i agree it's good for us to have - just don't see how it helps them - but you're right - ahead of ourselves
20:09		vickiteal left #koha
20:09	chris	thd: can you speak to this?
20:09	owen	Or is the Ohio based Koha Foundation moot as well?
20:09	chris	SelfishMan: i will endavour to get that in the minutes
20:09	brendan	this is what we found :
20:09	nengard	sekjal - their customers are aksing us for help cause they can't get answers from support
20:10	brendan	owen it does seem moot at this point
20:10		Ok here is the info we have discovered about the existing Koha Foundation and how we (the community) can gain control of it.
20:10
20:10		1. Research the bylaws; there should be some rules about membership and voting. We could get everyone to join the existing foundation,
20:10		then vote the agent who is on the foundations filed documents off and replace them with someone else.
20:10
20:10		2. File a separate foundation under a similar but different name.
20:10		As long as they have a tax  ID# associated with the existing foundation we cannot create a foundation with the same name in a different state.
20:10		However we are free to create a foundation supporting the same software under a different name, for example Koha Open Source Foundation etc...
20:10	thd	chris: brendan did the research
20:10	brendan
20:10		3. Have the present agent on the filed foundation sign over their status to another agent (Horowhenua Library Trust).
20:10		This would require Liblime to agree to the hand off.
20:10		sledei joined #koha
20:10	brendan	sorry if that doesn't come through clearly -- I could use paste - if need be
20:10	SelfishMan	I have to run, best of luck everyone.  I'll be reading the scrollback later tonight
20:10	sledei	slef again
20:11	owen	brendan: Does LL's Koha foundation even have bylaws?
20:11	brendan	not that we have found or seen
20:11	sekjal	nengard:  I've noticed.  there is clearly some cognitive dissonence going on
20:11	pianohacker	brendan: do they have to be public to be valid?
20:11	owen	So the name registration is pretty much just a blocker
20:11	thd	Does it have a federal tax ID?
20:11	imp	hm, just start another foundation under the law of another land?
20:12	brendan	we could not find a federal tax ID
20:12		with the searches we did
20:12	pianohacker	imp: us based nonprofit is useful for fundraising here in the states
20:12	brendan	with some money - a more advanced search would be possible
20:12	chris	owen: yes it appears it was only registered to stop anyone else registering it
20:13	nengard	brendan - money - or a librarian in a business library - is there anyone here like that?
20:13		with access to the necessary databases?
20:13	brendan	business librarian would work -- I believe
20:13	sekjal	I think my wife has some business resources at her library
20:13		I could ask her to perform a search... not sure if she has time, though
20:13	chris	nengard: could you ask your friends in SLA
20:13		?
20:13	sledei	wonder if a law lib would help?
20:13	wizzyrea	which databases are you thinking of
20:14	nengard	chris, I could do just that - I just need to know what we're looking or specifically
20:14	thd	I think that SIBL in New York would have  appropriate databases
20:14	nengard	and as for law library - I have connections at jenkins law library - but they do charge for business searhces
20:14		searches
20:14	chris	putting my paranoia hat on again
20:14	Genji	So, Liblime is actively blocking us from taking Koha back?
20:14	chris	this is all public and logged
20:14	thd	Most everything is free at SIBL
20:14	nengard	Genji - actively in their inactivity
20:14	brendan	nengard - that's what i've found
20:14	nengard	...
20:14		slef3g left #koha
20:14		jransom left #koha
20:15	nengard	it's cause the searches cost them money too
20:15		I can ask my connections though
20:15	chris	talking about what we might do to get the already registered foundation, probably means they will block whatever we do
20:15		jransom joined #koha
20:15	imp	pianohacker: if it's just the name, create one outside the states, and a second one inside (with another name) and link from the on outside the usa to the one inside (guess it's possible to make the states-based one, member of the other one)
20:15	chris	forewarned is forearmed and all that
20:15	Genji	Registering a bogus Foundation, right where we want it, name what we want... I'd say thats active.
20:15	thd	SIBL is merely a question of signing up for a time slot on the right terminal and knowing how to conduct the search properly
20:16	GeorgeSue	Registration?? If the country you are registering in is party to the International Treaty, one registration will suffice
20:16	sledei	if ll do, it'd be nice to know it's time to give up on them
20:16	pianohacker	Genji: It's possible it was originally formed with better intentions and later ignored/abandoned
20:16	brendan	owen - that's it from me, whenever you want to move on
20:16	chris	GeorgeSue: ohh thanks for that information
20:16	owen	nengard: You'll see what else you can find out and report at the next meeting?
20:16		jdavidb left #koha
20:17	* owen	isn't sure it'll mean much, but good to know more
20:17	nengard	owen, yes I will try my connections - if someone has a better connection (like a wife) let me know and I'll stop pushing for info
20:17	thd	I would not impute the motive at the time it was registered
20:17	pianohacker	GeorgeSue: But does that go both ways? Does the existing LL-founded US foundation affect any plans for foundations in other nations?
20:17	sekjal	nengard:  I'll let you know
20:17	nengard	:)
20:18	GeorgeSue	Depends on the place of registration
20:18	thd	nengard: you are the best connected person I know
20:18	nengard	hehe :) I try very hard to stay that way :)
20:19	owen	The next item on the agenda is the date of the next meeting, but I'm wondering if we still need to resolve anything about the identity-change voting process. Should this be in process during the next month, or is it tabled until vicki reports back?
20:19	sledei	dinner for me. will read log and reply if needed
20:19	jransom	are we really  going to meet back on christmas eve?
20:19	nengard	i won't be here :)
20:20	thd	owen: That may be a question of whether doing both helps or hinders vicky
20:20	jransom	i don't want to be here :)
20:20	GeorgeSue	Sorry I wont be thereeither
20:20	owen	No, but if vicki was able to report back to someone by then we might be able to plan better for the next meeting
20:20	sledei	would prefer other day but will be here if i have net
20:20	jransom	I think we do proceed along dual paths
20:20		sledei left #koha
20:20	jransom	and abandon one when we need to
20:21	owen	Shall we suggest that she contact jransom directly with what she finds out?
20:21	jransom	then we lose nothing.
20:21	owen	...since jransom was part of the first round of negotiations?
20:21	chris	jransom++
20:21	wizzyrea	jransom I think that sounds reasonable
20:21	jransom	I'm happy to share with Vivky anything useful and helpful
20:22	pianohacker	jransom: agreed. We should include in any mailing list posts that this _is_ one of two possible paths, but we should go forward with both
20:22	hdl_laptop	jransom++
20:22	jransom	pursue both with equal vigour :)
20:22	owen	jransom: What would you propose to do to proceed along the other path, the identity change one?
20:22	IrmaCalyx	dual progress is the go!
20:23	jransom	get endorsement on the principle to relaunch.
20:23		vote on name
20:23		then domain names
20:23		website up
20:23		press releases written
20:23		so those steps.
20:23		will need to be done - but in what order and whan?
20:23	owen	I'm not sure we can get endorsement from the community without hindering vicki's efforts
20:23	IrmaCalyx	original Koha, mother Koha, Koha #1, ....
20:24	chris	i concur
20:24	jransom	maybe the website needs to start immediately
20:24	chris	i think forget about the endorsment or name
20:24	jransom	can slap on branding near the end when we have a name and logo
20:24	chris	BUT
20:24	Genji	We need to register the new name, so liblime doesn't claim it, too?
20:24	jransom	yes.
20:24	chris	we already have
20:24	jransom	OpenKoha is ready for us now.
20:24	Genji	i mean, in a trademark/legal sense.
20:24	chris	what we should be doing
20:24		CGI669 joined #koha
20:24		LBA joined #koha
20:25	jransom	ah yes.
20:25	Genji	Else liblime might try to claim prior.
20:25	chris	is backing up the sites, getting alternate bugzillas, wikis running and alternate website if we need them
20:25	jransom	Can someone register that in the states today and cheaply?
20:25	chris	turn them all off afterwards
20:25		jransom: no
20:25		nothing is cheap with lawyers
20:25	thd	Genji: OpenKoha would probably be a conflicting trademark in the US.
20:25	chris	and lets just dial it back a notch
20:25	jransom	which would mean LL can't grab it either
20:26	chris	we have voted to let vicki try
20:26		lets not queer the deal
20:26	thd	Free software project get free lawyers and very good ones.
20:26	chris	lets get sites set up we can use, and we can slap a anme on them when/if thats needed
20:26	nengard	3 emails sent out to special librarians - we'll see where that goes
20:26	pianohacker	nengard++
20:27	owen	chris++
20:27	wizzyrea	chris: i like that idea, they can be merged if need be with koha.org
20:27	chris	exactly
20:27	imp	Genji: was koha started by liblime? or community based? (iirc the stuff correct about trademarks, you can get the right to use them, by doing so over a long period of time... can't express it right now correct (and it might be only german law))
20:27	chris	imp: it was most certainly not started by liblime
20:27	imp	thd: right :)
20:27	Genji	imp: Koha, was started by HLT, via Katipo.
20:27	jransom	HLT would be happy to let HLT status as the non profit be used to 'house' these community wikis etc in the interim
20:27		CGI669 left #koha
20:27	Genji	But then signed over to liblime....
20:28	chris	only the domain name
20:28		katipo and hlt had no trademarks
20:28		you cant trademark koha in nz
20:28		that would be retarded
20:28	Genji	No?
20:28	thd	The trademark issue might be good for EFF
20:28	jransom	it would be like trademarking 'Hello' in USA
20:28		Ngai joined #koha
20:28	thd	EFF may b better on trademarks than SFLC.
20:28	jransom	waves at Ngai
20:28	Genji	I love this.... Direct from koha.org
20:28		The Koha -- Open Source Library System is � 1999-2009 by LibLime & the Koha Development Team
20:29	pianohacker	fyi: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/sho[…]e=4010:80qv82.2.2
20:29	jransom	yes... etxactly ....
20:29	Genji	Koha� and the Koha logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of LibLime and BibLibre in the United States, France and other countries. Distributed under the GNU GPL license.
20:29	chris	ok, we could talk about this all day :)
20:29		but i think we need to move on
20:29	jransom	so is the plan that we start getting community website up and open
20:29	owen	Do we need to decide who is going to work on mirrors of bugzilla and the wiki?
20:30	pianohacker	chris: motion to table discussion of changing name and what to change it to for after dec 24?
20:30	jransom	with an undecided name
20:30	chris	pianohacker: seconded
20:30	owen	+1
20:30	gmcharlt	+1
20:30		Ata joined #koha
20:30	IrmaCalyx	+1
20:30	sekjal	+1
20:30	imp	if you use, lets say "foobar" for your product for 10 years (but never register it) and somebody else trys to register it for a product in the same sector, you can get the name back (at least under german law, dunno how that stuff is handled elsewhere)
20:30	jransom	we could ask Joshua if he could please point to the community site from his one ...
20:30	thd	++
20:30	cait	+1
20:30	jransom	+1
20:30	hdl_laptop	+1
20:31	SelfishMan	I am mirroring the wiki now. it is rough but complete
20:31		CGI018 joined #koha
20:31	imp	+1
20:31	nicomo	+1
20:31	owen	Do we have a date for the next developers' meeting?
20:31	Genji	mirroring it too, using HTTrack. 25mb down so far.
20:31	chris	yes
20:32	pianohacker	owen: dec 13, I believe
20:32	owen	It's customary to schedule the foundation meeting for the next day, no?
20:32	jransom	Offering HLT 'name' or domain for temporary use by Koha community if it would be useful for the temp 'new' 'just in case' site
20:32	thd	owen: 13 Jan
20:32	chris	and we can never have 2 many mirrors :)
20:32	pianohacker	ohh, nvm, typo on my end, thanks thd
20:32	jransom	what date scheduled for koha 3.2 release
20:32		and do we have flexibility with that?
20:33	gmcharlt	jransom: January
20:33	SelfishMan	is anyone fetching bugzilla?
20:33	thd	jransom: that will be ready when you fix any blocking bugs
20:33	gmcharlt	but I'd prefer not to go too far past january
20:33	chris	SelfishMan: pie is
20:33	jransom	ok - i'll be testing it extensively next week
20:33	rhcl	If anybody is keeping notes Greg Lawson from Rolling Hills Consolidated Library joined late but observed all pertinent proceedings.
20:33	chris	thanks rhcl
20:33	owen	Should we try to schedule the next foundation meeting earlier in Jan. ? The fifth, perhaps?
20:34	jransom	i prefer earlier Jan than mid
20:34	pie	yeah, it's taking a while though
20:34		972/3855 bugs
20:34		:(
20:34		then the attachments (1200ish)
20:34	pianohacker	Should we also make a decision to start name discussions asap after dec 24th, or just wait until the foundation meeting in jan?
20:34	jransom	so the 5th jan?
20:35	nengard	ths is good for me
20:35	jransom	I think we could start name discussions.
20:35	nengard	or 5th is good for me
20:35	owen	Are we rotating meeting times, or is this time good?
20:35	SelfishMan	for the record, i can offer high speed http and rsync mirrors in the uk and multiple points in the us
20:35	jransom	(not such a selfishman then!)
20:35	nengard	hehe
20:35	pie	lol
20:35	gmcharlt	owen: I think this time is good for the foundation meeting
20:36	nengard	yes - this time is good
20:36	jransom	me to
20:36	SelfishMan	jransom: exactly!
20:36	owen	Motion to schedule the next meeting: 19:00 UTC+0 on 5 January 2010
20:36	nengard	+1
20:36	gmcharlt	second
20:36	chris	+1
20:36	jransom	so my task is to work with Bob to get sometime 'up' for discussion about the koha subcommittee of HLT
20:36	pianohacker	+1
20:37	jransom	+1
20:37		veryinky joined #koha
20:37	veryinky	Hi.
20:37	hdl_laptop	+1
20:37	cait	+1
20:37	chris	SelfishMan: thank you for that offer
20:37	pianohacker	I'm sure than any announcement from vickiteal/jransom on the mailing list of result of negotiations will create more than enough discussion, no formal decision needed there :)
20:37	imp	+1
20:37	owen	any loose ends we need to tie up before calling an end to the meeting?
20:37	pianohacker	owen: final decision on temp site hosting?
20:38	SelfishMan	chris: that goes for dns as well. anything else i can probably do if needed.
20:38	thd	++
20:38	* gmcharlt	muses - "KittenKoha"?, then runs off
20:38	owen	I think all we can do is ask for volunteers
20:38	veryinky	Koha 3.0.2, the error in updateseller.pl file is fixed?
20:38	Genji	Ya.. so I know who to send my mirrored files to.
20:38	wizzyrea	afk a lil (LOL gmcharlt)
20:38	* nengard	laughing at gmcharlt
20:38	jransom	(slaps galen)
20:38	SelfishMan	typing on this droid is slow so sorry if i'm way behind
20:38	pianohacker	veryinky: meeting, but will end shortly; and then we can help you :)
20:38	gmcharlt	owen: yep - and I'm sure we'll have no shortage of volunteers
20:38	veryinky	Ah ok.
20:39		CGI090 joined #koha
20:39	chris	catalyst will be able to host if needed
20:39	jransom	mailing  list is the most open channel for sharing so we work on there yes?
20:39		Marijana left #koha
20:39	* gmcharlt	is in favor of a lot of distributed - many entities doing hosting of various pieces of <insert name here>.org, and redundancy
20:39	Genji	Whats the status of katipo in relation to Koha, these days?
20:39	chris	they do koha support
20:39	jransom	they are supporting it - have koha clients
20:40	chris	gmcharlt++
20:40	SelfishMan	gmcharlt: small world
20:40	gmcharlt	jransom: agreed re the mailing list
20:40	pianohacker	jransom: work meaning work on temp sites (that is, figure out temp sites there)?
20:40	* sekjal	wonders if we could encapsulate Koha resources in Git...
20:40	Genji	It would be somewhat poetic if Katipo could host the koha website again.
20:40	jransom	oh it so would.
20:40	gmcharlt	sekjal: depends on the CMS, but in principle, a lot of it could be put under version control
20:41	pianohacker	Genji: Not sure if resources are available/being offered, but it would be poetic
20:41	jransom	Rach is still the kaiwhakahaere so has the moral right to.
20:41	Genji	Katipo + HLT, back again!
20:41	chris	kaitiaki
20:41	jransom	oops
20:41		Kaitiaki
20:42	chris	drupal is what i would lean towards, catalyst, katipo and biblibre all have signficant drupal expertise
20:42	jransom	Richard was here but is gone now - Chris: you want to ask Rach or shall I?.
20:42	nengard	not that my opinion mattes here - but i hate drupal
20:42	chris	and it allows collaboration well
20:42	thd	gmcharlt++ distributed redundancy
20:42	chris	i hate all cms's
20:42	pianohacker	nengard: Well, for which reasons?
20:42	pie	sekjal: I was just thinking that too ... I have a bug tracker that saves things in Git, but probably wouldn't be that useful in this situation :)
20:42	chris	but i hate plone a million times more than drupal
20:43	owen	plone--
20:43	SelfishMan	drupal--
20:43	imp	trac++
20:43	nengard	pianohacker the interface is not intuitive, i don't think it's easy to customize the appearance and i disagree that it handles collaboration well - unless you want to really dig deep to figure it out
20:43	Genji	doesn't katipo have their own cms?
20:43	* veryinky	will be back, need to check something.
20:43		veryinky left #koha
20:43	chris	http://www.odt.co.nz/
20:43		is drupal
20:43	sekjal	it would probably take some work, but perhaps we could find a way to distill the essential data, put it in a Gig repo, then let different hosts display the data in the CMS of their choice
20:43	davi	trac++
20:43	hdl_laptop	kea
20:43	chris	you can customise it
20:43	nengard	but i'm with chris - not sure there is one that's any better - except wordpress - which is what i use for all websites - and wordpress mu would make it so tat we could have a real community site on the new domain
20:43	jransom	yep... but i think they are moving towards other solutions ie drupal
20:44	nengard	chris - yeah if you're a very patient person
20:44		and i'm not :)
20:44	sekjal	wordpress++
20:44	nengard	wordpress is what nekls uses
20:44	chris	nengard: exactly but like i said, catalyst, biblibre and katipo have significant drupal skills
20:44	nengard	yup - which is why i said my opionion didn't matter
20:44	pianohacker	owen: as this is kind of a secondary discussion, consider meeting over?
20:44	chris	yep
20:44	Ata	wordpress++++
20:44	gmcharlt	of course, ultimately it depends on what can be set up reasonably quickly, though I wouldn't mind Drupal or WPMU
20:44	Genji	Anyway, yes, please someone email Rach.
20:44	jransom	if chris is going to use his inhouse team then i think he should make the call
20:45	SelfishMan	is a cms even needed?
20:45	CGI018	\nick kyle_laptop
20:45	jransom	we want tomake this easy if we can
20:45	owen	I've only heard Catalyst volunteered
20:45	thd	chris: you can customise Zope without Plone fairly easily in Python
20:45	SelfishMan	zope--
20:46	owen	...but I'm happy to let the discussion continue and call the meeting closed for folks who aren't interested
20:46	CGI018	what about joomla?
20:46	thd	SelfishMan: Zope underlies Plone
20:46	jransom	katipo use that a bit too
20:46	wizzyrea	nekls has erm, considerable wp experience >.>
20:46	chris	ok, im bailing out on this
20:46	brendan	we would be more than happy to offer some webspace up
20:46	chris	cos this could go on for years
20:46	wizzyrea	hehe for re al
20:46	brendan	*nods*
20:46	sekjal	horribly impractical idea:  develop our own Wave client, and use that for all the community's DNA
20:46	rhcl	We tested both Joomla and Drupal here, and found that Drupal was much better overall and much easier to work with. YMMV
20:46	chris	i dont actually care what is running the site
20:46	wizzyrea	my kid says hi
20:47	jransom	can i suggest that chris just does it
20:47	SelfishMan	thd: not a big fan of zope but my bias is five years old
20:47	* Genji	laughs.
20:47	chris	lets jsut have one that more than just liblime can edit please
20:47	brendan	heh
20:47	nengard	yup yup
20:47	Ropuch	Hello everybody
20:47	thd	chris++
20:47	SelfishMan	jransom++
20:47	jransom	chris++
20:47	* Genji	nods. "Would love it if katipo hosts it, poetic.. .but it doesn't really matter, as long as its hosted.
20:48	pie	hey guys, not sure if this even helps, but I've been working on a site for KohaCon for next year ...
20:48	nengard	i'm with chris - i don't care where it is as long as multiple people have rights to edit everything!
20:48	pie	http://kohacon.appspot.com/ <- though the images and suchlike don't load at the moment :(
20:48	imp	what's the aim with an cms? for news? or wiki and such stuff?
20:48	magnusenger	how about using a wiki for as much as possible, and then something relatively simple like wp strictly for news?
20:48	thd	The good thing about Plone is the CSS which were allso adapted for Wikidedia
20:48	pie	anyone with a Google Account can get admin access (though not much there at the moment)
20:48	wizzyrea	ohh you said the G word
20:48	nengard	magnusenger - i find the wiki very hard to navigate - and we need the site to promote the software with more than just news
20:48	pie	heh, oopse
20:49	thd	LibLime discarded the Plone CSS and started over to some degree
20:49	pianohacker	thd: that would explain why it seems to alternate between crashing and 3-second freezing firefox...
20:49	magnusenger	nengard: agree that the current wiki is hard, i would prefer MediaWiki...
20:49	* imp	would be happy about something like trac, you can browse the source, statics sites, wiki, even a forum if you like - what do you want more?
20:50	nengard	mediawiki would be no easier to navigate
20:50	thd	nengard: I have a solution for Wiki navigation
20:50	nengard	not with the amount of content we have :)
20:50	wizzyrea	i would love to see something like the wordpress codex
20:50	sekjal	I really like the idea of separating the community data from its presentation logic.
20:51	magnusenger	nengard: i think it's easier to structure, but probably just because i know it better...
20:51	nengard	oooo i like wizzyrea's idea :)
20:51	sekjal	get some kind of structured data format that most of the major CMS's can ingest, roll it up in Git, and distribute.
20:52	thd	nengard: While I think that MediaWiki is the best internationalisations solution for the long term.  I have been running a customised verson of DokUWiki templates for three years with the aim of improving readablility and navigation
20:52	pianohacker	http://codex.wordpress.org/Codex:About
20:52	chris	ok, thanks all
20:52		i have to get to work now
20:52		bbl
20:52	pianohacker	cya chris
20:52	pie	have fun (and see you soon) :)
20:52	wizzyrea	we have two problems: 1. for promotion/landing site of koha, 2. for technical documentation
20:52	pianohacker	wizzyrea: 3. bugzilla?
20:52	wizzyrea	2.1 and bug tracking
20:53	pianohacker	*jinx*
20:53		yeah, could be rolled into doc tool
20:53		changing our bug db could be significantly harder than changing your CMS
20:53	owen	pianohacker: How so?
20:53	pianohacker	s/your/our/
20:53	thd	nengard: I will propose community consideration of a change to a different set of templates for DokuWiki to better support navigation and readability in due course
20:53	nengard	documentation will be in XML - so any site that can grab that and apply a stylesheet to generate the documentation works for me
20:53		thd cool
20:53	pianohacker	owen: even if not something like trac, the two are related to some extent
20:54	jransom	are we finished now?
20:54	Genji	uh... the koha logo is copyright Liblime now.... we need a new logo?
20:54	owen	jransom: Yes, thanks for your help
20:54	jransom	should realy go to work if the koha community meeting is finished
20:54	pianohacker	Genji: Bleh, we'll have to figure that out when/if we start naming discussions
20:54		Ata left #koha
20:55		CGI018 left #koha
20:55	jransom	soon - please
20:55		to give time.
20:56		also shows that we are deadly serious about sorting out this domain name situation
20:56	thd	jransom: owen suggested that putting it all forward now would hurt vicki's prospects of succeeding
20:56	pianohacker	jransom: I think the vote was to table until directly after dec 24
20:57	thd	own: do you have further comment about what you think helps or hurts vicki's prospects?
20:57		owen: Do you have further comment about what you think helps or hurts vicki's prospects?
20:57	wizzyrea	if LL thinks that we are serious about changing the name, then they won't be inclined to give us back our real name
20:57	owen	I agree with wizzyrea
20:58	wizzyrea	and they get all of that mindshare associated with the koha name
20:58	thd	wizzyrea: I tend to agree
20:58	wizzyrea	and they can go ahead and make koha.org basicallly liblimekoha.org
20:58	pianohacker	a name change is a large step forward in both good and bad ways
20:58	owen	But I think it's going to take some real agitating on the part of LL customers to make a difference
20:58	pianohacker	owen: is your library self-supported?
20:58	jransom	ok .
20:59	LBA	is anyone organizing LL customers?
20:59	* pianohacker	's impression was that Nelsonville was an LL customer
20:59	Genji	Im worried that LL will look at this log and freak.
20:59	owen	pianohacker: We're still with LibLime for a while longer
20:59	jransom	Vicky is I think.
20:59	thd	own: how much do non-LEK customers count anymore in the mind of kados?
20:59	wizzyrea	yes, there is organization within liblime customers
20:59		he still sells non-lek products
21:00	owen	thd: I'm not sure non-WALDO customers count in the mind of kados. But that's just me being snarky, I don't really know.
21:00	sekjal	LBA:  there is also KUDOS, the US-based Koha group, of which many members are/shall be LL customers
21:00	pianohacker	Genji: I think that LL/Josh has been acting cynically lately but not publically petty
21:01	wizzyrea	plus, he's apparently on vacay until the 17th
21:01	LBA	Know about KUDOS.  Was wondering if LL customers were working together to put pressure on LL to do the right thing.  And who/what is Kados?
21:01	wizzyrea	^.^
21:01	chris	LBA: kados is joshua
21:01		its his irc/wikipedia nick
21:01	LBA	I'm happy to apply pressure...I have nothing to lose as a 3p consultant.
21:02	sekjal	just out of curiousity, does anyone else here have a wikipedia login they use?  some pages in our general sphere have not been updated in recent history
21:02		veryinky joined #koha
21:02	* pianohacker	is Pianohacker
21:02	nengard	sekjal i have a login on wikipedia
21:02	LBA	it would help me to talk with current LL customers.  they are the ones who I don't want to alienate.
21:03	jransom	I really hope LL customers can make a difference here - it would the very best result if we don;t have to rename.
21:03	pianohacker	LBA: Just out of curiosity, what is your affiliation?
21:03		jransom: would also set an excellent precedent going forward
21:03	LBA	independent lib tech consultant galecia group
21:03	jransom	yep.
21:03	pianohacker	sekjal: do any pages pop to mind?
21:03	pie	ok, KohaCon looks better now -> http://kohacon.appspot.com/
21:03	jransom	and would heal the breach in the koha community between LL and non-LL libraries
21:03	nengard	jransom - the problem that i see is that too many librarians are passive and just go with the flow - it's what they've learned after years of dealing with the old vendors - so happy or not they don't seem to fight much
21:03	pie	(very initial prototype though)
21:04	chris	yay pie
21:04	nengard	of course that's not all lbirarians - a few here are big fighters - myself included
21:04	pie	:)
21:04	chris	bywater solutions gets the first sponsorship slot
21:04		bywater_solutions++
21:04	wizzyrea	oh hey that looks nice
21:05		i'm sad that there *is* a breach between ll and non ll customers
21:05		:(
21:05		that's certainly not what we had in mind when we signed up
21:05	chris	yeah, lets close that
21:05	pianohacker	wizzyrea: some ll customers
21:05	SelfishMan	nengard: very true. they usually don't have the resources to investigate for themselves so they ask the neighbors and parent orgs
21:05	sekjal	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koha_(software) does not reflect the currently released version, and the history could stand to be flushed out further
21:05	LBA	my take is that many current LL customers are not getting what they signed up for - an ILS without vendor lock-in
21:06	chris	yep it needs to be edited
21:06	nengard	sekjal i'll fix it
21:06	wizzyrea	lba that would be accurate in many cases
21:06	thd	jransom: Beyond avoiding renaming it would help if kados would appreciate that he has much more to gain by helping the community and that he looses nothing of value in helping.
21:06	pianohacker	wizzyrea: Those that involve themselves in the community are actively working to shorten the gap
21:06	jransom	pie: cool
21:06	chris	LBA: its certainly what im hearing too
21:06	Genji	LBA: and the website of LL's 'no vendor lock-in' .... something like false advertising.
21:06	pie	jransom: yeah, Chris was wanting something up so we'll be putting things in there from the wiki
21:07	LBA	if people would talk to me, I'd be happy to do my best at posting sentiments and urging a closing of the breach - while protecting anonymity
21:07	sekjal	thanks, nengard
21:07	nengard	sekjal - someone beat me to it ...
21:07	pianohacker	pie: hey, what do you have running on appspot to create that site? Looks very nice
21:07	pie	at the moment, it's just static but hopefully soon it'll be logginable and changeable
21:07	jransom	thd: absolutely agree. George and I have spent hours talking our way through trying to find a way to bring Joshua back in from he cold.
21:07	pie	pianohacker: just a small bit of Python ... I'll get you the repo
21:07	pianohacker	pie: ah, cool
21:07	pie	http://gitorious.org/kohacon
21:07		it's all there for the moment
21:07	davi	OpenKoha is not a good name IMHO
21:07	owen	jransom: It makes me very sad to hear that he questioned your position as negotiator
21:08	wizzyrea	freekoha makes me think of three things: 1. FreeCell 2. SkiFree and 3. Free Willy
21:08	imp	.oO(freeware *puke* ;)
21:09	thd	jransom: It is not a business exclusion but a personality conflict which seems to be the difficult obstacle from my conversations with him at ALA.
21:09	davi	Free could be better, but we should manage to find a better name than OpenKoha
21:09	pianohacker	davi: We have tabled that discussion at least formally, but I'm curious why not?
21:09	SelfishMan	yeah, openkoha would be a bad move. either keep the current or completely change it
21:09	owen	Let the informal discussion happen as it may
21:09	davi	Open does not meant freedom. See our current problems
21:10	chris	davi++
21:10	thd	imp: free software killed freeware / shareware in the market.
21:10	jransom	its a nice contrast to koha (as in open vs closed) lol
21:10	pianohacker	davi: free as in libre is an excellent ideal but will likely have different connotations than open
21:10	davi	SelfishMan++
21:10	chris	its not closed, its just not free
21:10	pianohacker	Explaining the meaning of koha is always a nice bit piece at conferences, but people already have hangups on free/open
21:11	jransom	I know - but the english grad in me thinks closed when i see open
21:11	sekjal	the part of me that really hates losing thinks we should fight for the name we have.  the more practical side thinks that it might not be the best tactic
21:11	chris	have you read brenda chawners piece?
21:11	davi	pianohacker, Bad connotations or good ones?
21:11	IrmaCalyx	What about: GlobalKoha?
21:11	wizzyrea	sekjal: I'm with you
21:11		ooh
21:11	imp	thd: yes, but i dont like it if people confuse both things, nearly every time if we talk about licensing stuff at the lib where i deployed koha, i have to explain the difference :/
21:11	wizzyrea	GlobalKoha
21:11	chris	what about Icantbelivesomeamericancorpo​rationhashijackedamaoriword
21:11	jransom	also, it is not completely outside the bounds of possibility that koha.org will come back to the community in the fullness of time
21:12	SelfishMan	NotUrmomsILS
21:12	pianohacker	chris: are there any good derived terms from Koha?
21:12	chris	.org
21:12	jransom	we can slip back to koha very easily from openkoha
21:12	davi	I would agree the best option is follow using just "Koha"
21:12	pianohacker	chris: ICANN would probably approve it :P
21:12	IrmaCalyx	chris: that's a good one! A bit long?
21:12		CGI090 left #koha
21:12	davi	pianohacker, Is there a wiki page or similar when we can add possible names to use if we can not use Koha at the end?
21:13	jransom	chris: yeah thats brilliant. definitely make it one of the options.
21:13	sekjal	http://hello.org:  it works!
21:13	pianohacker	davi: better to keep it informal for now, I would think :)
21:13	chris	http://of2minds.net/reflections/?p=41
21:13		i encourage you all to read this
21:13	rhcl	koala?
21:13	davi	pianohacker, ack
21:13	thd	imp: people will not understand open properly either.  I also like KohaLibre which avoids the ambiguity over free.
21:13		jwagner left #koha
21:13	Ngai	:-)
21:13	davi	I am reading, thanks chris
21:13	pianohacker	davi: Just keep it in mind for after dec 24th when we find out the results of vickiteal's pressure
21:14	wizzyrea	which I think of "nacho libre" but my free associations should not hinder the naming process lol
21:14		(a movie I haven't even seen)
21:14	owen	I have problems with the term "Libre" as well from the point of view of American ears
21:15	ftherese	libre sounds good to me
21:15		are you guys done with your meeting yet?
21:15	davi	ack, pianohacker
21:15	chris	ftherese: ages ago :)
21:15	wizzyrea	yep
21:15	thd	owen: yes I do not propose it actually because it is not English enough.
21:15	pianohacker	...as in acknowledged?
21:15	chris	thd: and koha is?
21:15	ftherese	what can be done to speed up koha's response time?
21:15	pianohacker	regardless of english; a maori/french combo is a bit jarring
21:16	ftherese	just in general
21:16	imp	pianohacker: true
21:16	chris	ftherese: put expires headers on all the static files
21:16	thd	chris: Koha is  at least known
21:16	pianohacker	what he said
21:16		jransom left #koha
21:16	Genji	ack, just realised, httrack is a bad mirroring program. It doesn't save the url as doku.php?etc... but as doku<some serial number>.html
21:16	SelfishMan	genji: yep
21:16	chris	ftherese: give mysql as much ram as possible
21:16	thd	chris: We do not want to loose the known and recognised word.
21:16	imp	what's the maori word for leafs?
21:17	chris	leaves?
21:17	Genji	SelfishMan:not what you wanted eh?
21:17	pianohacker	ftherese: also, if you're running a recent version of koha, bug them about memcached
21:17	SelfishMan	but the content is at least there
21:17	pianohacker	imp: from the logo?
21:17	imp	chris: jupp
21:17	ftherese	bug bug bug
21:17		who do I bug?
21:17	SelfishMan	genji: i knew that going in but not a lot of other options
21:17	ftherese	and chris: how do I do what you suggested?
21:17	pianohacker	ftherese: Whoever admins your Koha install. Note that by recent I mean git
21:17	imp	pianohacker: from the logo? thought it's a wave?
21:17		tajoli joined #koha
21:18	Genji	SelfishMan:you using httrack too?
21:18	SelfishMan	yep
21:18	Genji	Ah. .... so im getting the exact amount of files you are going to get.
21:18	pianohacker	imp: no idea. Where do the leaves come from?
21:18	Genji	currently: 105 mbs, 2623 files written.
21:18	chris	imp: whārangi
21:19	* pie	is up to Bug 2725
21:19	munin	04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2725 normal, P3, ---, paul.poulainbiblibre.com, NEW, uppercasesurnames preference not working
21:19	pie	lol
21:19	pianohacker	bleh, macron
21:19		chris: are there any short/memorable/pleasing sounding maori versions of any of the words we've discussed?
21:19	chris	you could use rau
21:19		for leaf also
21:20		kohamatatou, 3 words koha ma tatou .. ma tatou means = for/of/by us all
21:20	imp	pianohacker: pages from books -> leaves ;)
21:20	SelfishMan	i think 'rau' is illegal in montana
21:20	pianohacker	ftherese: a google search for "apache expires" turns up docs and tutorials
21:20		ftherese: regardless, it'll be editing your koha-httpd.conf in some fashion
21:20		SelfishMan: bahaha, dare I ask why?
21:21		Ngai left #koha
21:21	ftherese	pianohacker: ok thank you
21:21	SelfishMan	is the latest mod_perl happy?
21:21	pianohacker	kohamatatou sounds kind of interesting
21:21		SelfishMan: still not officially supported
21:21	imp	"rau" is the german word for an uneven surface ;)
21:22	rhcl	I eat rau vegetables sometimes, but they ususally taste better cooked.
21:22	owen	'til tomorrow, folks.
21:22	imp	cya owen
21:22	thd	chris: how does rau relate?
21:22		owen left #koha
21:22	pianohacker	You can try, but you are guaranteed to run into problems which the only support we can offer for is "turn off mod_perl, it is eeeevil"
21:22	chris	dunno
21:22		imp asked for the maori word for leaf
21:22	IrmaCalyx	cheerio all - off for some breakfast ...
21:22	chris	i gave him 2 ;)
21:22	pianohacker	bye, IrmaCalyx
21:22	chris	plurals in maori dont change the word
21:22		te rau = the leaf
21:23		nga rau = the leaves
21:23	LBA	leaves...tree....evergreen
21:23	SelfishMan	pianohacker: tried mod_perl long ago but wasn't sure if changes were made recently
21:23	chris	whārangi is a better word for leaf tho
21:23	thd	chris: I thought that you had been offering a word for openness and/or freedom
21:23	chris	nope
21:23	imp	(offtopic) what's the name for the double-helix?
21:23	chris	koha is the word for openness and/or freedom
21:23	SelfishMan	no diacritics in the new name please
21:23	pianohacker	imp: as in dna or the shape?
21:24		kohakoha?
21:24	chris	could use humarie, or rangimarie which both mean peace
21:25	imp	pianohacker: the maori symbol one
21:25	chris	koru
21:25		like in the koha logo?
21:25	* Genji	laughs. "Koha was the word that Rach used to describe the almost free status of the ILS.... and the open status. So saying OpenKoha, or FreeKoha is pretty much repeating itself"
21:25	pianohacker	sharing? If you object being used as a human english-maori dictionary, feel free to say so :)
21:25	chris	manakitangi
21:25		manakitanga even
21:26	thd	nengard: are you still here?
21:26	chris	or whakawhiriwhiri
21:26	nengard	uh huh
21:26	wizzyrea	well whakawhiriwhiri seems appealing
21:26	chris	imp: a koru is used to symbolise new growth/life
21:26	LBA	koru++
21:27	Genji	Korukoha?
21:27	chris	its why its part of the logo
21:27	rhcl	what about neke?
21:27		IrmaCalyx left #koha
21:27	LBA	what about something that means the original one or source or foundation ...
21:27	SelfishMan	koru isn't bad as long as there is an audio file with the correct pronunciation on the site
21:27	thd	nengard: for the links to a new name to have some weight you might consider changing all your old blog posts to a new domain and encourage others to do the same.
21:27	chris	in what context rhcl ?
21:28	nengard	thd - oh i will - as soon as the site is moved - if it's moved
21:28	ftherese	how do I give more ram to mysql?
21:28	Genji	from Rach, the origin of Koha, and its still on LL's website. "Koha isn't a company - it's very important that you understand this. Koha is a project and a product, but many companies are involved in producing Koha. "
21:28	chris	/etc/mysql/my.conf
21:29		koru is well overused
21:29	Genji	http://lists.katipo.co.nz/publ[…]-June/011814.html
21:29	chris	in nz
21:30	SelfishMan	koru would sell well over here
21:30	thd	nengard: are their scripts which could do that globally for popular blogging software without site administration access?
21:30	nengard	doubt it
21:30	chris	lets give vicki a chance first
21:30		then we can thrash out names
21:31	thd	vicki+++
21:31		collum left #koha
21:31	LBA	yes, chris, and think positively
21:31	chris	LBA: its hard, this crap has been going for over a year now
21:31		but im trying to
21:32	LBA	I think it needs to be made more clear to the outside world what LL is doing.
21:32	chris	i was hoping librarians would do so
21:32	LBA	now that more are turning on to the os idea, I think it is a good time
21:32	chris	as developers and support companies
21:32		its hard for us to say anything
21:32		because we get we are attacking the competition leveled at us
21:33	wizzyrea	and customers have fear of retribution
21:33	LBA	yes, not your job.  and yes, it's risky for customers.  that's why people like me have to help get it out.
21:33	brendan	LBA++
21:34		Nate left #koha
21:34	Genji	how easy is it to export a LEK db to a Koha db?
21:34	chris	hard
21:34		heupink left #koha
21:34	chris	because no one has ever seen a LEK db
21:34		thats the whole point
21:34		not even LEK uses get to see it
21:35	Genji	What of marc mass-exporting?
21:35	chris	plus they have renamed columns
21:35		you are asking the wrong people
21:35		you need to ask LL
21:35	* Genji	nods. Laughs. "Okay, so people on LEK are effectively trapped.
21:36	sekjal	I will push KUDOS to act as an educator in the library world, helping to foster the profession's understanding of the project and how to get involved
21:36	chris	thats kinda the point isnt it?
21:36	wizzyrea	sekjal++
21:36	Ropuch	Genji: feel the irony of "no vendor lock-in" on LEK advertiding ;>
21:36	chris	sekjal++
21:36	thd	chris: Do you propose to fix spelling errors as part of 3.4 refactoring?
21:36	chris	yes
21:36	Ropuch	s/advertiding/advertising
21:36	chris	get rid of all those z's
21:36		and put some u's back in
21:36	* Genji	nods. "Someone needs to write a LEK spider to marc export script?
21:36	wizzyrea	lol rangi
21:37	chris	but seriously, yes in script and variable names
21:37	thd	chris: I meant most importantly the ones which are wrong in every English dialect
21:37	chris	yes
21:38		ill be expecting patches from you doing just that ;-)
21:38	thd	They are very easy to trip over when writing code
21:38	pianohacker	bbl
21:38		ftherese left #koha
21:39	thd	chris: I have submitted them but I lost the argument about fixing spelling errors in the past as dangerous refactoring
21:39		chris: My patches were considered bugs
21:40	sekjal	I'm all for considering a moderate-large refactoring for Koha 4.0
21:40	magnusenger	good night (or other time of the day) everyone!
21:40	sekjal	I've got large, impractical ideas that will take too much time
21:40	chris	yeah well you will win with 3.4, cos thats the point of it
21:41		course if your patches introduce bugs, they will be assigned to you :)
21:41	thd	yaaah
21:42		magnusenger left #koha
21:42	LBA	can I suggest that any LL customers who want to talk to me about their situation, please email me at loriayregmail.com...then I'll pop out and let you carry on about bugs  :0
21:42	thd	To be fair my patches were an incomplete fix and therefore they were bugs but I was not allowed to continue and fix spelling errors as bugs themselves
21:43		vickiteal joined #koha
21:46	Ropuch	Guess it's hight time for to get familiar with git
21:46	chris	LBA: might be nest to email that to the list
21:47		because apart from vickiteal and wizzyrea there arent any other LL customers here
21:47		afaik
21:49	wizzyrea	not at the moment :(
21:49	brendan	ah time for some lunch
21:49		bbiab
21:54		ftherese joined #koha
21:57	LBA	okay, thanks Chris, will do.
21:59	vickiteal	Meetings done, right?
22:00		I got disconnected from the chat, so missed rest of meeting. :(  I will wait for text to be posted.  Bye.
22:00	LBA	Bye and thanks.
22:00		LBA left #koha
22:01		jransom joined #koha
22:01		cm left #koha
22:02		vickiteal left #koha
22:03	Genji	... obviously, some people don't know about the real time log.
22:04		tajoli left #koha
22:04	ftherese	chris: I am getting an Invalid command 'Header' error message when trying to use expires thing for apache... is there a quick solution?
22:05	chris	you probably dont have the module enables
22:05		enabled even
22:05	ftherese	I am going to try this LoadModule headers_module modules/mod_headers.so
22:06		is it there? or do I have to install it separately for ubuntu standard install?  if you don't know I'll just keep poking around
22:07	Genji	SelfishMan: 2 hours and 8 minutes.. still going.
22:07		nicomo left #koha
22:07	sekjal	time to head out.  great meeting and followup discussions, all.
22:08		sekjal left #koha
22:11	ftherese	hmmm... I don't know which libapache2-mod to add
22:11		there isn't one explicitly for headers
22:11		is it contained within something else?
22:12		sudo a2enmod headers
22:12		found it I think
22:12	chris	that looks likely
22:16	Genji	2 hr 17mins, 196 MB and growing.
22:18	imp	Genji: do they have a small uplink?
22:18	Genji	Hmm? oh.. im on new zealand ADSL.
22:21	pie	can't connect to http://bugs.koha.org/ anymore
22:21		it's timing out
22:21	chris	same for overseas? can someone in the us confirm?
22:21	imp	it's working here
22:21	brendan	I am able to connect
22:21	imp	but a little bit slow ;)
22:21	pie	hmm
22:21		thanks
22:21	chris	maybe just our ip blocked
22:21		i cant from my work computer
22:22	pie	up to bug 3392/3855
22:22	munin	04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3392 minor, PATCH-Sent, ---, gcollumgmail.com, RESOLVED FIXED, Patrons with no checkout report table not highlighting
22:22	pie	lol (again)
22:22	chris	can from home
22:22	Genji	mass-downloading could be interpreted as an attack by an automated system.
22:22	chris	so yeah blocked from work
22:22	imp	Genji: right
22:22		that's the reason why i'm unsure about mirroring it or not
22:23	chris	well we dont want to lose all the content
22:24	Genji	could get done for attacking a website.
22:24	pie	no-one is attacking it
22:24	* Genji	nods..
22:25	wizzyrea	I can get into it
22:25	imp	yeah, if i want, i can use a machine with a gbit uplink... i'm pretty sure it'll leave any ids screaming DOS...
22:25		(but i'm not sure who much traffic can be pushed down to .nz
22:26	Genji	ill dl it all with httrack, then ill use a specific dokuwiki again, to see if i can get the correct doku url format, raw pages. Just using httrack now to get the content off there, just in case.
22:27		nengard left #koha
22:36		bebbi left #koha
22:44	ftherese	I tried doing the expires thing for the headers, but koha is still very slow to respond
22:55	Genji	what is evil about mod_perl + koha btw?
22:55	rhcl	http://bugs.koha.org/ <- works for me - apparent normal speed
23:05	cait	time to sleep - bye all :)
23:06		cait left #koha
23:13	SelfishMan	Genji: I'm still running, 3600 objects fetched.  Might be time to find a better way to pull it
23:14	Genji	SelfishMan: 5000 for me. Like said, im getting it down, then im going to try again with a script i found.
23:16		something from http://www.raykee.com/wiki:export
23:18	SelfishMan	ganyeah, I'm trying a totally different way
23:18		dpavlin left #koha
23:19	Genji	SelfishMan: what you trying?
23:19	SelfishMan	wget -m -e robots=off
23:19	Genji	-m -e?
23:19	SelfishMan	-m is mirror
23:20		and -e sets a flag
23:20		gives me filenames like "doku.php?id=ubuntu_9.04_based_opac_kiosk"
23:20	Genji	its a real pity that doku doesn't have any exporter built in.
23:20	SelfishMan	I know
23:20	Genji	Ah, very nice.
23:21	SelfishMan	much faster
23:21	Ropuch	Ok, goodnight all
23:21	chris_n2	g'night Ropuch
23:27	imp	do you want every open bug, or all bugs?
23:29		Topic for #koha is now  Discussion channel for the Koha ILS | Next general irc meeting is scheduled at 19:00 UTC+0 on 13 January 2010
23:30	chris_n2	imp: all bugs I'd suspect
23:31	imp	k
23:31	chris_n2	we'd hate to lose the history
23:32	imp	will fetch the 1 - 4000 right now, creating a list of "no go links" later and then pull the attachements
23:33	Genji	I assume your using xm.cgi?
23:33		xml.cgi?
23:34	imp	ohh
23:34		good idea
23:34		used show_bug.cgi..
23:35		(without ctype=xml)
23:35	Genji	write a script... for 'ing through and wgetting.. or LWPing.
23:36	imp	just a simple for loop with `seq 1 4000`
23:36		(and -O $i ;)
23:36	Genji	ah sure.
23:37	* imp	likes the bash
23:37	Genji	what version of bugzilla is it?
23:37		http://old.nabble.com/Bugzilla[…])-to10722199.html
23:38	imp	version 3.0.4.1-2+lenny1
23:38	Genji	that url will give you the ability to export without scripting.
23:42	imp	you mean by adding multiple &id=.. fields?
23:45	Genji	http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]y_format=advanced
23:45		then just click search, then XML
23:45		way at the bottom of the list
23:46		got it?
23:48	imp	clicked xml - waiting now :D
23:49	Genji	woops.
23:49		forgot to mention, select all statuses
23:49		click stop, start over.
23:50	imp	there are crossed out ones listed (wontfix, fixed, worksforme)
23:50	Genji	yes, chris_n2 wants all of the entire db.
23:52		my search says 3849 bugs entirely.
23:52	imp	bla, malformed xml bla line Nr. 23149, row 265: ....
23:52		think i'll just continue using wget
23:53		every bug on it's own
23:53		one per file
23:53		thats ok i think
23:53	Genji	how about.... wget the url that xml was trying to get.
23:53		copy and paste the url from the address bar.
23:53		all the id #'s are in it.
23:54	imp	Genji: i'm already fetching the bugs in xml format
23:54	Genji	k
23:54	imp	(at least, since you mentioned it :)
23:55		nearly 0.5k/3,8k
23:55		so it won't take that long
23:55		(with a friendly 1s sleep between each one)