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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:58 | kados | morning stephen |
| 11:59 | hi all | |
| 11:59 | shedges | morning kados |
| 12:58 | morning owen | |
| 12:58 | owen | Hi |
| 12:58 | thd | are you feeling better kados? |
| 13:03 | owen: the default intranet template has support for moving subfields up and down within the field in the record editor for rel_2_2. The intranet template provides no such support now. | |
| 13:04 | owen | Do you mean the NPL template provides no such support now? |
| 13:04 | thd | owen: yes that is what I mean |
| 13:04 | owen | You're talking about addbiblio, right? |
| 13:05 | thd | owen: Yes. |
| 13:05 | owen | Okay, I'll check it out |
| 13:05 | shedges | thd: has that feature been improved? It used to be that you could keep moving subfields up and up, into the previous tag, and the previous tag... |
| 13:05 | (not good!) | |
| 13:05 | paul | no, it hasn't yet. |
| 13:05 | i'll do it for 2.2.6 | |
| 13:05 | shedges | hi paul! |
| 13:05 | paul | hello everybody. Still stuck with utf8 on this side of atlantic :-( |
| 13:06 | shedges | (we all use Windows on this side of the atlantic) |
| 13:06 | thd | shedges: Oh yes, up and up but that still allows changing the order of the subfields. |
| 13:08 | paul: Will you also add changing the order of entire repeated fields? | |
| 13:09 | paul | nope. This hack was just a dirty hack before Koha 3.0 that will be shipped with a new marc editor |
| 13:11 | thd | paul: Changing field order is important for sequencing linked fields and also for altering primary, secondary, etc. importance in repeated fields. |
| 13:14 | paul: This hack is actually sufficiently functional to provide for the possibility of creating standards compliant records in the Koha record editor that had been impossible for many common cases previously. | |
| 13:21 | paul: Why was .the inconspicuous "..." chosen to hide the best features of Koha instead of something more visible? Especially in the OPAC, it must be missed by most patrons who would not have special information about Koha features. | |
| 13:23 | paul: Should '...' not be some symbol or text that signifies its function clearly to any new user. | |
| 13:23 | ? | |
| 13:26 | hdl: you had been asking about shipping costs divided by the number of items received and associated with the item in normal acquisitions. | |
| 13:26 | hdl | thd : No. |
| 13:27 | I asked about the freight being multiplied for each order line :) | |
| 13:28 | thd: that seems quite different ;) But I wait and listen to you. | |
| 13:28 | thd | hdl: You mean multiplied improperly and not based on the number of copies or total items ordered? |
| 13:28 | hdl | thd: And sent a mail on koha-devel about that matter |
| 13:29 | thd: I mean | |
| 13:29 | To my mind freight is like "frais de port" in french. | |
| 13:29 | You pay it for the whole parcel because of its weight. | |
| 13:29 | owen | thd: a "best feature" for a librarian isn't necessarily the best feature for a patron |
| 13:30 | hdl | So it should not be multiplied for each order line but should be added to total. |
| 13:31 | And maybe, but I am not an expert, after that the VAT (GST) is calculated. | |
| 13:32 | Moreover, some ppl told me that VAT in france depended upon the books or the booksellers. (But Koha is great. It manages that for a parcel.) | |
| 13:35 | (except that it is a value and not a percentile) | |
| 13:46 | kados | hehe |
| 13:46 | one of my clients was confused and thought that | |
| 13:46 | 'debarr' meant 'not barred' | |
| 13:46 | :-) | |
| 13:47 | so they were 'debarring' every patron they added :-) | |
| 13:47 | causing no end of confusion until I realized how they were using the word :-) | |
| 14:04 | thd | hdl: There is often a difference between how freight is assessed on shipments to some types of customers such as bookshops and libraries as opposed to ordinary retail customers. |
| 14:05 | hdl | thd: tell me |
| 14:06 | thd | hdl: In an ordinary retail transaction you usually know the shipping charge in advance. |
| 14:07 | hdl | kados : are they speaking french ? Som of our customers would also ask the question the same way. |
| 14:07 | thd: still listening. | |
| 14:08 | kados | hdl: maybe we should think up a new term for 3.0 |
| 14:08 | hdl: that's not so confusing :-) | |
| 14:08 | thd | hdl: The vendor in an ordinary retail transaction will set a charge based on the vendor's needs but the real fee for shipping may be hidden in the profit on the price of the books themselves. |
| 14:10 | hdl: In the ordinary retail transaction the vendor will seldom raise the price originally set for shipping even if there are many partial shipments to fulfil the order. | |
| 14:10 | paul | a quick question : |
| 14:10 | how to dump the content of a variable in perl ? | |
| 14:10 | kados | use Data::Dumper' |
| 14:11 | paul | data::dumper, thanks |
| 14:11 | kados | ; even |
| 14:11 | warn Dumper($variable); | |
| 14:12 | thd | hdl: For customers such as libraries and bookshops the business relationship that the vendor has may be rather different. |
| 14:14 | paul | kados : it's almost time to leave for me. |
| 14:14 | BUT : | |
| 14:14 | a GOOD news, that has to be confirmed in 2 days (tomorrow i won't be here) | |
| 14:14 | it seems that i have a correct solution to our utf8 problem. | |
| 14:14 | it relies on mysqlPP package. | |
| 14:15 | that is a 100% Pure Perl mySQL connector. | |
| 14:15 | it is 100% pure perl. It also requires only 1 line change in Context.pm | |
| 14:15 | AND : | |
| 14:15 | I have included Encode::decode_utf8() at the right place, and it seems to work fine ! | |
| 14:16 | I changed nothing except this in most scripts, and that work fine. | |
| 14:18 | thd | hdl: In every case their may be a vendor set basis of a fixed minimum fee for the presumed package plus something for each item shipped. The vendor's own calculation may be based on weight and size or more usually a set fee per item that is averaged in the vendor's own calculations between the expected total volume of heavy and large and light and small, |
| 14:19 | s/their/there/ | |
| 14:22 | hdl: For any customers there may be an itemised invoice or packing slip attributing a shipping price to each item shipped. | |
| 14:22 | paul | mmm... seems to work imperfectly. |
| 14:22 | but at least works a little ! | |
| 14:22 | hdl | thd: Would you have some bills to send me as examples. |
| 14:24 | thd | hdl: Unfortunately, I was not the record keeper for my own business and no longer have such documentation. |
| 14:25 | hdl: However, you must be able to ask some of your libraries to send copies of some examples that show varied practices. | |
| 14:27 | hdl: Otherwise, if you know any small shopkeeper well enough to ask any business would have such records. | |
| 14:27 | hdl | thd: Sure, but would certainly be quite awkward ;) |
| 14:28 | kados, owen, chris, rach, shedges, or russ : could you send some different orders and reception bill exemples ? | |
| 14:29 | thd | hdl: Packing slips are also useful to see what accompanies a shipment when the bill or invoice is usually separate. |
| 14:30 | hdl | send those too :) |
| 14:30 | I hope bills are not too localized but doubt it. | |
| 14:31 | thd | hdl: Often packing slips will be a form similar to the invoice except that the important numbers apart from quantity may be greyed out. |
| 14:34 | hdl: For an ongoing business relationship the vendor is likely to charge for each partial shipment and because there is likely to be a minimum charge for each package the total may be more than if everything could have been sent in one package. | |
| 14:36 | hdl: Therefore, the original expected shipping price at the time the order was placed may be understood as only an estimate. | |
| 14:37 | kados | paul: do you know of a problem with the MARC editor where ISBN cannot be deleted? |
| 14:38 | paul | mmm... not that I remember atm |
| 14:38 | hdl | thd: If you have some time, try Acquisition an parcel management and you will see the core of my question. |
| 14:38 | kados | one of my clients is unable to delete isbns or save the record without the isbn value filled |
| 14:38 | might be a template issue ... I'll look into it | |
| 14:39 | hdl | kados: It could be a framework parameter also :) |
| 14:39 | kados | ahh |
| 14:39 | but it's default framework | |
| 14:39 | hdl | default framework can have been a little modified. |
| 14:40 | thd | hdl: The original order being based on estimated or provisional prices where even the price of the books might change by the time that the order was fulfilled. |
| 14:40 | kados | hdl: if it's set to 'mandatory' it will behave that way? |
| 14:40 | hdl: 020$a is set to: | |
| 14:41 | hdl: Tab:0, | Koha field: biblioitems.isbn, Not repeatable, Mandatory | |
| 14:41 | thd | kados: Almost certainly 020 $a has been set to mandatory. |
| 14:41 | hdl | kados: When set to mandatory : value is needed. |
| 14:41 | Unless provided a value you cannot input data. | |
| 14:41 | kados | thd: but in some cases it's not there ... why would it be mandatory? |
| 14:42 | hdl | Is that not the strict norm ? ;) |
| 14:42 | And norms must get adapted to uses.... :D | |
| 14:43 | thd | kados: If and only if you were in a library where you expected all books catalogued using the new books framework to have ISBNs then in that case it probably should be set to mandatory. |
| 14:44 | hdl | thd Thx. |
| 14:44 | kados | thanks guys, that really helps |
| 14:44 | thd | kados: That should not be a generic default for all cases but would certainly be an understandable one. |
| 14:44 | hdl | Well folks, |
| 14:44 | kados | should isbn be repeatable? |
| 14:44 | I think yes right? | |
| 14:45 | thd | good evening hdl_away |
| 14:45 | kados | well ... the tag 020 anyway, how about the subfield $a? |
| 14:45 | thd | kados: absolutely |
| 14:45 | kados | both? |
| 14:45 | thd | kados: $a is unique within 020 |
| 14:46 | kados | I'm getting some framework suggestions from a cataloger who works in a prospective client's library |
| 14:46 | so hopefully soon I'll have several framework options on the liblime demos | |
| 14:46 | she was describing 'materials designation' as the most important distinction to use when deciding what framework to use | |
| 14:46 | 245$h and a number of other fields ... | |
| 14:46 | thd: that sound familiar? | |
| 14:48 | thd | kados: I have not finished the compile and fully validated default framework. I was delayed starting and continuing by odd template behaviour. |
| 14:48 | s/compile/complete/ | |
| 14:49 | kados: 245 $h is not in all records and cannot be used alone as the basis. | |
| 14:50 | kados: 000/06-07 is the best starting point for framework selection. | |
| 14:52 | kados: 000/06-07 are absolutely required but libraries using Koha with an incomplete framework that lost their original records may have no 000. | |
| 14:52 | kados | thd: so the first job for me is to get a nice looking default framework on the demo |
| 14:52 | thd: so that libraries won't be scared off :-) | |
| 14:54 | thd | kados: I was distracted by appearance in the MARC display that was obviously scaring off libraries independent of having even a perfect framework. |
| 14:54 | kados | thd: right ... but that's cleared up now right? |
| 14:54 | thd: or at least we have a fix | |
| 14:55 | thd: I can make the modif to LibLime's demo | |
| 14:55 | thd: if you think that would be good | |
| 14:56 | thd | kados: I have a fix for one issue for both the intranet and the OPAC but we need a new preference to commit to rel_2_2. |
| 14:56 | kados | thd: I can do the pref and the fix |
| 14:57 | thd: just let me know what the fix is | |
| 14:57 | thd | kados: paul had made the MARC display less verbose and making it appear as if something is wrong underneath even when everything is right. |
| 14:58 | kados | thd: I understand that |
| 14:58 | thd: we just need to put a simple 'if' statement before some lines right? | |
| 14:58 | thd: can you think of a good name for the new syspref? | |
| 14:59 | thd | kados: That was a complaint of some of his customers so less verbose and and more correct need a system preference. |
| 15:01 | kados: MARC Semantic View Verbosity: standard | economical | |
| 15:02 | kados | hehe |
| 15:02 | too verbose I'm afraid | |
| 15:02 | :-) | |
| 15:02 | thd | kados: There should also be a very traditional MARC view that is very compact with no semantic labels. |
| 15:04 | kados: MARCSVV: 0 | 1 :) | |
| 15:05 | kados: that is much less verbose but also unclear. | |
| 15:05 | kados | yep |
| 15:05 | how about | |
| 15:06 | Standard MARC Layout | |
| 15:06 | yes/no | |
| 15:08 | thd | kados: There should be some attempt at distinguishing the traditional codes only MARC view from the one with semantic labels otherwise the user will expect something that Koha does not have at the moment but which could be added with fairly trivial work. |
| 15:09 | kados | thd: er? what's that? |
| 15:09 | thd | kados: also I have no clue about what I would expect when choosing no in your example |
| 15:09 | kados | you mean MARC view with no labels at all? |
| 15:10 | syspref MARC Labels yes/no | |
| 15:10 | thd: that's above and beyond what we're talking about though | |
| 15:11 | thd | kados: The usual one you see everywhere with only codes is something that is missing from Koha and probably expected by MARC fanatics and is certainly beyond what we are talking about. |
| 15:12 | kados: However, that is in the context of meeting librarians' expectations so they do not run in the other direction after a brief look at Koha before they understand its fantastic benefits. | |
| 15:14 | kados: Labled MARC View: standard | economical | |
| 15:15 | kados: That is less verbose and perfectly clear. | |
| 15:17 | kados: It also reserves a distinction for the coded but otherwise unlabelled MARC view that should be there and could easily be added. | |
| 15:18 | kados | thd: right ... |
| 15:18 | thd: ok ... I'll make it so | |
| 15:18 | thd | kados: I did stay up much of last night working on the default framework for MARC 21 but I had forgotten how much was missing and incorrect. |
| 15:18 | kados | thd: cool |
| 15:19 | thd | kados: I still have much more to do. |
| 15:20 | kados: I hope there are no more additional places for libraries to use the wrong mislabeled field to store ISBN numbers. | |
| 15:21 | kados: I wonder how many inexperienced part time cataloguers may have mucked up new records with that alone. | |
| 15:23 | kados: actually, that field would not have appeared previously in the record editor so it would have gone unnoticed. | |
| 15:23 | kados: I have been using the latest rel_2_2 but I do not see the system preferences that you added. | |
| 15:24 | kados: Did you commit the extra system preferences to rel_2_2? | |
| 15:25 | kados: are you still there? | |
| 15:27 | kados: or have you succumbed to your fever from last night? | |
| 15:28 | kados | I'm here |
| 15:28 | was just handling a support issue | |
| 15:28 | done now | |
| 15:28 | thd: which sys prefs? | |
| 15:28 | thd: do you mean? | |
| 15:29 | thd | kados: You had added ones for Amazon and one for linking to other resources outside Koha. |
| 15:30 | kados: I do not see them in the latest rel_2_2 that I am running. | |
| 15:31 | kados | did you updatedatabase? |
| 15:31 | thd | kados: As far as I know nothing updated when I ran the database updater. |
| 15:32 | kados | well they're there |
| 15:32 | try exporting KOHA_CONF and running it again | |
| 15:34 | thd | kados: I should try updating the database again because I found that sudo had lost PERL5LIB even though root and I still had it. |
| 15:35 | kados: Do have any idea what could clobber PERL5LIB for sudo on a Debian testing system? | |
| 15:35 | s/Do/Do you/ | |
| 15:38 | maybe root had actually unset it and it was restored with a new shell as it should have been when I tested. | |
| 15:40 | kados | I'm not sure |
| 15:40 | just run updatedatabase from within the CVS koha dir | |
| 15:40 | and it'll automatically put C4 in PERL5LIB | |
| 15:41 | thd | kados: Actually, thinking carefully there is a comment in updatedatabase that seems to suppose no value in reading koha.conf but that may be a forgotten ancient historic artifact. |
| 15:43 | kados: I may not have used cd to the directory first. Does that make a difference? | |
| 15:44 | kados: Does updatedatabase need the working directory context? | |
| 15:44 | kados | thd: updatedatabase is updated |
| 15:44 | thd: with the new syspref | |
| 15:45 | thd: can you tell me which lines to enclose in the syspref for opac-MARC detail et all | |
| 15:45 | thd: if you know | |
| 15:45 | thd: before I ever run any script I always set KOHA_CONF and PERL5LIB | |
| 15:45 | thd: because so many things can go wrong if you don't | |
| 15:45 | thd: it's a good rule of thumb | |
| 15:46 | thd | kados: I have the environment variables in my bash profile so I assumed that I was safe. |
| 15:51 | kados: I could commit the two files to rel_2_2 now and you can update them with the needed nested if else clauses for using the system preference. I have not studied hdl's instructions to you or closely examined an isolated example to do that yet. | |
| 15:51 | kados | thd: when I get back, let me know which lines I should look at in the MARC detail pages |
| 15:51 | thd: just tell me the lines, I'll commit the change | |
| 15:52 | thd | kados: I have to go to the dentist. Wil you be around in several hours? |
| 15:52 | s/several/a few/ | |
| 16:05 | kados | yep |
| 16:07 | thd | kados: I will provide all information in commented files when I return from having a filling replaced. ouch |
| 16:30 | kados | ouch is right :/ |
| 16:57 | thd-away: LabelMARCView support is now committed into CVS and seems to be working on LibLime's demo | |
| 16:58 | thd-away: once you confirm it's working as expected I'll post a note to koha-devel | |
| 16:59 | thd-away: we may also want to formulate an answer to Stephen about it, explaining that it was nothing but a display issue | |
| 17:55 | shedges | kados: so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags? |
| 17:56 | kados | shedges: saving scrambled tags? |
| 17:56 | shedges: do you mean for libraries like NPL? | |
| 17:57 | btw: remember way back when when i was trying to get us to look at the leader and fixed fields rather than a local use tag for itemtype? | |
| 17:57 | turns out I was right :-) | |
| 17:58 | shedges | is the leader flexible enough to store user-defined item types? |
| 17:58 | kados | no |
| 17:58 | you have to follow AACR2 | |
| 17:59 | the unfortunate bit is that NPL lost all the 00X fields on import | |
| 17:59 | shedges | ah, right |
| 18:00 | kados | because paul's original bulkmarcimport discarded those fields |
| 18:00 | it doesn't strictly affect any performance ... | |
| 18:01 | it just means that NPL won't ever have script MARC-compliant records | |
| 18:01 | unless we can come up with a clever way to intuit that info from the data | |
| 18:02 | shedges | ...or just goes to all XML and let's MARC die... |
| 18:03 | kados | yep |
| 18:03 | that would be truly innovative | |
| 18:04 | shedges | it would certainly make life in the Web much easier! |
| 18:06 | kados | I think for that we'll have to wait until 3.0's finished and we've got the new holdings forest in place |
| 18:06 | then we can start working on some kind of XML-based profile for library records | |
| 18:27 | yay logbot | |
| 22:03 | thd | kados: I see that you committed the code to opac-MARCdetail.pl to rel_2_2. |
| 22:04 | kados | thd: yep |
| 22:04 | thd: but it's a syspref | |
| 22:04 | thd: so we should be safe :-) | |
| 22:04 | thd | kados: I can commit the corresponding changes for the intranet and also to HEAD. |
| 22:05 | kados | already did |
| 22:06 | wait ... didin't to head | |
| 22:06 | thd | kados: That does not cure all about which Steven was commenting. That is however, where, he was observing that issue. Other issues that he had were not mere appearance. |
| 22:08 | kados: I saw no commit to MARCdetail.pl only to opac-MARCdetail.pl. | |
| 22:09 | kados | i commited both MARCdetail and opac-MARCdetail in rel_2_2 IIRC |
| 22:09 | thd: are those a matter of a better default framework? | |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: Also paul had cited an additional if clause for MARCdetail.pl that seems not to be present in opac-MARCdetail.pl. |
| 22:10 | kados: yes, a better default framework. | |
| 22:11 | kados | thd: which you're working on right? |
| 22:11 | thd | kados: yes |
| 22:12 | kados: back to that just after I succeed with updatedatabase | |
| 22:12 | kados | cool |
| 22:14 | thd: do this exactly: | |
| 22:14 | thd | kados: NPL has an external record store that it can use for recovering 00X and anything else that may need recovering from the SQL void in Koha does it not? |
| 22:14 | kados | cd /path/to/koha/cvs/repo |
| 22:14 | ie, the 'koha' directory | |
| 22:15 | export KOHA_CONF=/path/to/koha.conf | |
| 22:15 | updater/updatedatabase | |
| 22:15 | then you'll be done :-) | |
| 22:15 | and you can get to work on frameworks :-) | |
| 22:17 | thd | kados: I will add that to my grabkoha.sh script that is doing all the repetitious tasks now. |
| 22:17 | kados: Dose NPL not have the data preserved for recovering what was lost inside Koha? | |
| 22:19 | kados | thd: pass |
| 22:19 | thd | kados: pass? |
| 22:20 | kados | thd: they don't |
| 22:21 | thd | kados: was it not your job to look after their data for them? :) |
| 22:21 | kados | thd: I tried ... did you see my earlier message to stephen? |
| 22:23 | thd | kados: I saw some log from today but I must have missed part of the discussion and logbot was down. |
| 22:23 | kados | sorry then :-) |
| 22:27 | thd | kados: I have from this point on and seem to have had an uninterrupted connection for much of today.. |
| 22:27 | shedges kados: so there was no possibility of saving scrambled tags? | |
| 22:27 | kados shedges: saving scrambled tags? | |
| 22:28 | kados | thd: in fact, it doesn't matter for NPL at all |
| 22:28 | thd: having valid marc would give them zippo ... nadda | |
| 22:28 | thd | kados: There must have been something before that which was not a public message. |
| 22:28 | kados | nope |
| 22:29 | thd | kados: Why would invalid MARC help NPL? :-) |
| 22:29 | kados | um ... the point is valid marc would do nothing _for_ them |
| 22:29 | I didn't say invalid would help :-) | |
| 22:29 | just that valid wouldn't help :-) | |
| 22:30 | in fact, there would be absolutely no advantage for NPL | |
| 22:30 | thd | kados: You merely mean that Koha ignores that data now? |
| 22:30 | kados | no ... |
| 22:30 | I mean that even if Koha didn't, it wouldn't matter to them | |
| 22:30 | they don't have professional catalogers even | |
| 22:31 | thd | kados: That is not an uncommon problem even where there are simply not enough professional cataloguers. |
| 22:32 | kados | there's nothing that valid MARC would give them that they don't already have |
| 22:32 | due largely to their current cataloging practices | |
| 22:33 | thd | kados: After I finish the framework, I will send you the long delayed message about how that can be remedied for every library. |
| 22:33 | kados | thd: I may have finished my framework before you finish yours :-) |
| 22:34 | thd | kados: Too much work required to finish tonight. |
| 22:34 | kados | I got a specification from a potential client |
| 22:34 | several actually | |
| 22:35 | thd | kados: Do you mean the have given you a copy of the SQL already? |
| 22:35 | s/the/they/ | |
| 22:35 | kados | thd: of course not ... just the tags/subfields they need to be in certain frameworks and how to fill the fix fields, etc. |
| 22:35 | materials designation, etc. | |
| 22:36 | thd | kados: one default framework will be insufficient for meeting needs. |
| 22:36 | kados | of course ... |
| 22:37 | that's why they sent me several :-) | |
| 22:37 | thd | kados: Some plugins need to be written as well but nothing major for minimal compliance. |
| 22:38 | kados | yep, and I've already written one of those :-) |
| 22:41 | thd | kados: I am specifying minimal requirements for all subfields. After that is done and carefully checked we can discuss what other standard frameworks should be created. I am carefully noting the salient differences for national framework which would be a modest modification. |
| 22:42 | kados | thd: I'm starting to think we're going to need several frameworks |
| 22:42 | a general one where the user is prompted to enter values for all relevant fields | |
| 22:42 | then one for each materials designation | |
| 22:42 | minimally: | |
| 22:42 | Book (monograph) | |
| 22:42 | Computer File | |
| 22:42 | thd | kados: There should be a national level one just to prove that Koha can be used for national level cataloguing. |
| 22:43 | kados | Video (film, filmstrip, transparency) |
| 22:43 | Picture, study Print, Photograph, Chart | |
| 22:43 | Kit (Book and nonmusical Casette) | |
| 22:43 | Manuscript Lanuage Material | |
| 22:43 | Maps Globes and Atlases | |
| 22:43 | Mixed Material | |
| 22:43 | Music (Printed) | |
| 22:43 | thd | kados: UNIMARC Koha has those, however, they are full of mistakes and the libraries that paul has do not care. |
| 22:43 | kados | Three dimensional Artifact, Object |
| 22:44 | Sound Recordings (nonmusical) | |
| 22:44 | Serial (Printed Periodical, etc.) | |
| 22:44 | Sound Recording(Musical) | |
| 22:44 | phew :-) | |
| 22:45 | thd: do you know where I can find out what the leader should be for each of those materials? | |
| 22:45 | thd | kados: UNIMARC Koha only has some of that more complete list. They have no realia framework for cataloguing cannonballs and paintings. |
| 22:46 | kados: That same table for 000/06-07 | |
| 22:51 | kados: I had given you the related 008 table before but see the table at the bottom of http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0021.htm | |
| 22:51 | kados | shit ... I don't want to have to decode that :-) |
| 22:52 | i need a valid string for 'BOOK(MONOGRAPH)' :-) | |
| 22:52 | thd | kados: That is easy, I have the Perl code already. |
| 22:52 | kados | yea? |
| 22:53 | for now could you just tell me what the value should be for a book? | |
| 22:53 | '00428nam 2200145u' 4500 look right to you? | |
| 22:53 | oops ... | |
| 22:53 | thd | kados: yes, I started it months ago for a message to koha-devel until too many additional fields were involved for a simple message. |
| 22:54 | kados | '00428nam 2200145u 4500' |
| 22:55 | thd | kados: where did n come from? |
| 22:55 | kados | no offense, but you've got to just send those messages even if they are not 100% complete |
| 22:56 | I got that from one of my client's catalogs | |
| 22:56 | Code n (Special instructional material) is obsolete. Defined 1975-1983; use code k (Two-dimensional nonprojectable graphic) and code r (Three-dimensional artifacts and naturally occurring objects). | |
| 22:57 | thd | kados: I did send the message I just did not attach incomplete code to it to prove an obvious point. |
| 22:57 | kados | how's this: |
| 22:57 | '00994pam 2200301 a 4500' | |
| 23:00 | thd: did you write the 'marc21leader.pl'? | |
| 23:00 | thd: the plugin? | |
| 23:01 | thd | kados: paul wrote that, I suggested good default values for the most likely use in Koha. |
| 23:03 | kados: your last example is the monograph component part of a mixed material. | |
| 23:03 | kados | can you tell me what the correct code for a simple Book (Monograph) should be? |
| 23:04 | thd | kados: your previous example is the monograph component part of a nonstandard (not in the MARC standard) record type. |
| 23:05 | kados: maybe the first part is a typo. | |
| 23:06 | kados: plugins may not cure typos but can certainly reduce them and at least leave you with a valid record of some sort. | |
| 23:08 | kados | hmmm ... I added a 000 to my 'Book' Framewokr |
| 23:08 | but it still doesn't show up when I try to edit a MARC record | |
| 23:09 | do I need to add it as @000 ? | |
| 23:09 | thd | kados: 000/06 is not defined for 'n'. There is a remote possibility that it is an historical usage which should have been converted long ago. |
| 23:11 | kados: you need to add it to your '@' subfield for 000 in the bibliographic framework editor. | |
| 23:11 | kados | not enough characters to fit it :( |
| 23:11 | the template is preventing it :-) | |
| 23:12 | thd | kados: What do you mean? Not enough characters to fit what? |
| 23:13 | s/what/what where/ | |
| 23:16 | kados | I mean that I can't enter in more than 3 chars in the 'tag' input box |
| 23:17 | thd | kados: you mean the add field box? |
| 23:18 | sorry retract last post | |
| 23:18 | kados | found the prob |
| 23:18 | have to commit it to cvs tonight | |
| 23:19 | thd | kados: It is working on my rel_2_2 system so it must already be in CVS. |
| 23:19 | kados | so when I add it as @000 |
| 23:19 | it doesn't show up :-) | |
| 23:20 | thd | kados: Add field 000. |
| 23:20 | kados | er? |
| 23:20 | I thought you said to do it as @000 | |
| 23:20 | thd | kados: create subfield '@' |
| 23:20 | kados | ahh |
| 23:21 | I'm a dumbass :-) | |
| 23:21 | thd | kados: actually if you leave the subfiled name blank the default templates will create it as '@'. |
| 23:21 | kados | ahh |
| 23:21 | doesn't on mine | |
| 23:22 | thd | kados: try the default template. |
| 23:22 | kados: default only for intranet in MARC. | |
| 23:23 | kados | shit ... npl template doesn't even save the @ subfield |
| 23:23 | wtf | |
| 23:25 | thd | kados: The default templates are now only non-MARC in the OPAC for some mistake that happened during 2.2.4. |
| 23:25 | kados | doesn't work in default either |
| 23:26 | thd | kados: Some translations are tied to the default OPAC templates so there is now a problem for users of those languages. |
| 23:26 | If hey are using MARC Koha. | |
| 23:26 | s/hey/they/ | |
| 23:27 | kados | no, I'm not even able to add a @ subfield in the 000 tag |
| 23:27 | it won't 'stick' | |
| 23:27 | thd | kados: update to the latest rel_2_2 in CVS. I only had 2.2.5 for a couple of days. |
| 23:28 | kados: I run a single script to update everything now. | |
| 23:28 | kados | it _is_ latest cvs |
| 23:29 | thd | kados: Is there some legacy problem in your bibliographic framework table? |
| 23:30 | kados | could be |
| 23:30 | that's the thing about updatedatabase | |
| 23:31 | it doesn't update if the table exists :( | |
| 23:31 | well ... table and column that is | |
| 23:31 | ok ... I'll delete the framework table and run updatedatabase | |
| 23:31 | thd | kados: owen told me that no one would touch the frameworks at NPL because of some problem from versions ago would give permanent headaches that no one else had ever been able to reproduce. |
| 23:32 | kados: That problem with updatedatabase should be cured. | |
| 23:33 | kados: You must be able to add columns to an existing table or nothing would hardly ever update without being dropped first. | |
| 23:35 | kados | actually, I'm not even sure which table the framework stuff is in |
| 23:38 | ok ... deleted biblio_framework and readded it with updatedatabase | |
| 23:39 | ok that must not be it | |
| 23:41 | I'm guessing it's probably marc_subfield_structure and marc_tag_structure | |
| 23:41 | maybe even others | |
| 23:41 | this sucks | |
| 23:42 | thd | kados: careful not to delete the wrong table :) |
| 23:44 | kados | I may have :-) |
| 23:44 | yea, looks like it's toast :-) | |
| 23:45 | totally | |
| 23:45 | shit | |
| 23:49 | thd | kados: you built everything from an SQL dump right? |
| 23:55 | kados | yea, restoring now |
| 00:16 | I decided to completely start over with a fresh install | |
| 00:16 | to grab the frameworks stuff | |
| 00:19 | now updatedatabase has run | |
| 00:37 | thd: do you know this syspref: | |
| 00:37 | itemcallnumber 676a The MARC field/subfield that is used to calculate the itemcallnumber (in UNIMARC | |
| 00:37 | it cuts off | |
| 00:40 | thd | kados: That preference is supposed to aid in filling an item call number from a standard location. |
| 00:40 | kados | does it apply to usmarc/marc21 too? |
| 00:40 | thd | kados: It is not UNIMARC dependent but I could never get it to work |
| 00:40 | kados | thd: also, even now, my marc structure doesn't display a 000 tag |
| 00:40 | thd: or does the new default still not have it? | |
| 00:41 | thd | kados: Default is very poor and is missing much. |
| 00:43 | kados: Inaccurate repeatability was added to the original work but nothing more. | |
| 00:45 | kados | ARRRG |
| 00:45 | thd | kados: The librarian who helped paul originally prepare the specifications for the frameworks did not have the compulsion for validity that people may loose their data if this is incomplete or inaccurate. |
| 00:45 | kados | just added 000 |
| 00:45 | then attempted to addd subfield @ | |
| 00:45 | and it didn't work! | |
| 00:45 | thd | kados: what template are you using? |
| 00:45 | kados | npl |
| 00:45 | switching to default now | |
| 00:46 | thd: using default I get the same thing! | |
| 00:47 | yea, it's definitely not working! | |
| 00:47 | this is SO frustrating | |
| 00:47 | thd: koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/marc_subfields_structure.pl?tagfield=000&frameworkcode=BOOK | |
| 00:48 | give it a shot yourself | |
| 00:48 | see if you can make it dance | |
| 00:51 | thd: are you trying it? | |
| 01:08 | thd: is it possible that the non-default frameworks can't have their own values for LEADER -- only the default can? | |
| 01:09 | nope :( | |
| 01:11 | thd | kados: I succeeded |
| 01:11 | kados | thd: in what? |
| 01:12 | thd | kados: There were no plugins listed though. |
| 01:12 | kados | I still dont' see the @ subfield listed |
| 01:12 | if you do, please show me where | |
| 01:13 | thd | kados: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]rameworkcode=BOOK |
| 01:13 | kados | hey! |
| 01:13 | what was I missing then? | |
| 01:14 | Text for librarian i bet | |
| 01:14 | thd | kados: maybe the templates reject the attempt to add the subfield if you do not provide text for the librarian or OPAC |
| 01:14 | kados | shoot ... that was a complete waste of time :/ |
| 01:14 | thd: I was gonna use a 'Auth value' not a plugin | |
| 01:14 | thd: because I thought the BOOK framework would only need one value for leader | |
| 01:14 | thd: am I wrong? | |
| 01:15 | thd | kados: You cannot use an authorised value for the leader and have an accurate leader. |
| 01:15 | kados | why not? |
| 01:16 | thd | kados: The leader is supposed to include information about the record size etc. that should be filled automatically. |
| 01:17 | kados: I am not certain that paul's plugin calculates the record size when you choose the submit button but it could eventually. | |
| 01:18 | kados: If I recall correctly, as long as the plugins directory is in the correct place all plugins will be listed. | |
| 01:19 | kados: The apache user has to be able to read and execute them of course. :) | |
| 01:21 | kados | they are of course executable by apache |
| 01:21 | thd | kados: You should merely alter the leader plugin with other copies set to different correct defaults for different bibliographic media. |
| 01:21 | kados | thd: what is in your 'scripts' directory? |
| 01:22 | thd: and, from the sound of it, calculate the length of the record :-) | |
| 01:24 | thd | kados: they are in the value builder directory for CVS. |
| 01:24 | kados | I know where they are |
| 01:24 | I just don't know why my Koha's not finding them | |
| 01:24 | are they also in your 'scripts' directory? | |
| 01:26 | thd: we're back to not having the '000' $@ again now that I switched back to npl templates | |
| 01:26 | thd | kados: not that I see. |
| 01:27 | kados | both the @ and the plugins |
| 01:27 | thd: what was the value for 'Text for librarian'? | |
| 01:27 | thd | kados: I will run the find command |
| 01:28 | kados: I used 'control field' in '@' for 000 | |
| 01:29 | kados | wow ... plugin's just magically started working! |
| 01:30 | hey, looks like it's even working ! | |
| 01:30 | yay! | |
| 01:30 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]mple/addbiblio.pl | |
| 01:31 | well ... kinda | |
| 01:31 | the values don't really look right to me | |
| 01:32 | interesting ... you can even specify if there should be links | |
| 01:34 | thd | kados: koha/intranet/cgi-bin/value_builder |
| 01:34 | kados | yea, I have no idea why they were't showing up before |
| 01:35 | thd: I didn't realize that you would use a plugin as paul's marc21leader.pl works | |
| 01:35 | thd | kados: links work now in both MARC view and the default non-MARC detail view |
| 01:35 | kados: what else would you use? | |
| 01:36 | kados | thd: it looks like perhaps it is meant to cover all possible cases |
| 01:36 | thd: would you simply specify defaults if you were going to make a marc21.books.leader.pl? | |
| 01:36 | or would you change the actual way the script works? | |
| 01:37 | thd | kados: I would mak a copy of the script and change the defaults |
| 01:37 | kados | what should the values be for the types I listed above ... do you know off hand? |
| 01:42 | thd | kados: Book (monograph) 000/06 a 000/07 m |
| 01:43 | kados | thd: I don't know what that means |
| 01:44 | thd | kados: Computer File: 000/06 m, 000/07 whatever applies |
| 01:45 | kados: leader positions six and seven | |
| 01:46 | kados | thd: are those the only two that need to be changed? |
| 01:46 | thd | kados: those are the only two that set material type in the leader |
| 01:47 | kados: their are other fields that need plugins, well all of them do. :) | |
| 01:47 | s/their/there/ | |
| 01:48 | kados | yea, but lets focus on the leader first |
| 01:48 | thd | kados: 008 is a required field and has much to do with material type |
| 01:48 | kados: leader only for now | |
| 01:48 | kados | thanks :-) |
| 01:49 | looking over this template, I can't figure out how to get it to default to a specific value | |
| 01:49 | thd | kados: Video (film, filmstrip, transparency) 000/06 g, 000/07 whatever applies |
| 01:50 | kados | nevermind |
| 01:50 | I see how | |
| 01:51 | thd | kados: It is very simple with just the leader |
| 01:53 | kados: book is tricky by requiring both 000/06 and 000/07 | |
| 01:55 | kados: proper material typing is complex because it involves several fields including ones that cannot be relied upon being present in a found record and many cataloguers have no time to create in an original record. | |
| 01:55 | kados | hang on |
| 01:55 | I still can't figure out how to make it default to the values we want | |
| 01:55 | the leader that is | |
| 01:56 | do you know? | |
| 01:56 | thd | s/fields/fields, fixed field positions, and subfields/ |
| 01:57 | kados: I have not tried changing the default yet. | |
| 01:57 | kados: It may use JavaScript along with Perl. | |
| 01:59 | kados: there must be something different about the current defaults or there reference :) | |
| 01:59 | s/there/their/ | |
| 02:00 | kados | I get it now |
| 02:00 | ok ... we're in business | |
| 02:05 | thd | yes line 82 $result = " nam 7a " unless $result; |
| 02:05 | kados | thd: can you check to see if you like what you see? |
| 02:05 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]mple/addbiblio.pl | |
| 02:05 | I think what we should do ... if you have time ... | |
| 02:06 | is to go through the other fields up to 008 | |
| 02:06 | plus the materials designations (if you know what those should be) | |
| 02:06 | and try to pick values for them that would apply for BOOK (MONOGRAPH) | |
| 02:06 | or write plugins for them if the values are shifty | |
| 02:06 | thd: are you up for it? | |
| 02:07 | thd | kados: I am well rested and have a new indestructible filling |
| 02:07 | kados | heh |
| 02:08 | thd | mostly indestructible but real tooth enamel is better |
| 02:08 | kados | shoot ... not sure it's working right |
| 02:09 | thd | kados: I grew up where fluoridated water was thought to be a communist plot. |
| 02:09 | kados | arrrg |
| 02:09 | for the marc21_computerfile.pl I changed it to: | |
| 02:10 | $result = " nmm 7a " unless $result; | |
| 02:10 | but still doesn't work :( | |
| 02:10 | thd | Although I never had a cavity until I had been living a few years in New York. |
| 02:11 | kados: The existing default is right for books already as the most common thing to be catalogued. | |
| 02:11 | kados: what is the problem? | |
| 02:12 | kados: I think that is an illegal value | |
| 02:12 | kados | thd: did you visit the above link? |
| 02:12 | thd: and try to catalog a new Computer File | |
| 02:12 | using the COMPUTER FILE framework? | |
| 02:12 | it doesn't fill 000/07 with 'm' | |
| 02:13 | like it should | |
| 02:13 | well ... 000/06 I mean | |
| 02:14 | I bet the problem is this: | |
| 02:14 | defaultvalue=document.forms[0].field_value[i].value; | |
| 02:15 | where the heck is that stored? | |
| 02:17 | document.forms[0] is the first form in the document | |
| 02:17 | thd | kados: perhaps there is even more to change for the default |
| 02:18 | kados | field_value[i] is a variable for the value of the field within that form ... each one of them has a value |
| 02:21 | thd | kados: there is a reference to unimarc field 100 in line 56 |
| 02:24 | kados | well ... we'll have to ask paul tomorrow |
| 02:24 | I can't figure it out | |
| 02:25 | thd: lets move from the leader | |
| 02:25 | thd: what's next in terms of importance ... 008? | |
| 02:25 | thd | kados: 001 is mandatory |
| 02:25 | kados | ok ... so 001 then |
| 02:25 | it shouhhld be linked to biblionumber for now, right? | |
| 02:26 | biblio.biblionumber ... right? | |
| 02:26 | thd | kados: 001 should be filled automatically from biblionumber yes |
| 02:26 | kados | thd: what's the label? |
| 02:27 | thd | kados: what label do you mean? |
| 02:27 | kados | thd: what should I call it ? |
| 02:27 | thd | kados: you mean subfield '@'? |
| 02:27 | kados | Control Number |
| 02:28 | no, I meant 001 itself | |
| 02:28 | thd | CONTROL NUMBER |
| 02:29 | kados | it's not repeatable |
| 02:29 | it has one subfield ... @ right | |
| 02:30 | thd | kados: all '@' subfields are non-repeatable |
| 02:30 | kados | ok ... what's next? |
| 02:30 | ahh | |
| 02:30 | thd | kados: the fields may be repeatable but not in this case |
| 02:30 | kados | right |
| 02:30 | what's next ... 002? :-) | |
| 02:30 | I'm guessing 003 | |
| 02:30 | Control Number Identifier | |
| 02:31 | thd | kados: a plugin should move any old 001 value to 035 |
| 02:31 | kados: there is no 002 | |
| 02:31 | kados | the 003 can have an authorized value |
| 02:32 | so I'll set that up quickly | |
| 02:32 | with LibLime's code | |
| 02:33 | thd | kados: that should be the branch doing the cataloguing read from wherever the cataloguing user information is located. |
| 02:33 | kados | what's next? |
| 02:34 | 005? | |
| 02:34 | thd | kados: That is supposed to be an authorised code assigned by LC for the institution |
| 02:34 | kados | yep, we have one |
| 02:34 | LibLIme that is | |
| 02:34 | OLvl I think | |
| 02:34 | I can look it up later ... lets move on | |
| 02:34 | 005? Date and Time of Latest Transaction | |
| 02:34 | should be filled with today's date right? | |
| 02:35 | or last time's date? | |
| 02:35 | thd | kados: an existing 003 from a copy catalogued record should be moved to whatever field I said it should in my email from months ago |
| 02:35 | kados | thd: I routinely do this for my clients |
| 02:36 | thd: when I bulk-import records | |
| 02:36 | but we need a plugin that can handle an existing value | |
| 02:36 | and put it in the right field right? | |
| 02:36 | thd | that would be the one I finally sent when I had finished the default framework this past weekend :) |
| 02:36 | kados | right |
| 02:37 | I have a plugin script that can be changed to do this | |
| 02:37 | should be fairly easy | |
| 02:37 | thd: so ... 005 ... todays' date? | |
| 02:37 | thd | 005 has to be regenerated every time a record edit is submitted. |
| 02:37 | kados | ok ... got a plugin for tha talready |
| 02:38 | thd | kados: date and time in the required format |
| 02:38 | kados | thd: which is what? |
| 02:38 | thd | kados: mostly ISO |
| 02:39 | kados | 2006-12-30 then? |
| 02:39 | thd | The date requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern yyyymmdd. The time requires 8 numeric characters in the pattern hhmmss.f, expressed in terms of the 24-hour (00-23) clock. |
| 02:40 | there is a dot in between the date and the time | |
| 02:41 | retract the dot is where the above sentence says | |
| 02:41 | kados | thd: should this be linked to a koha field? |
| 02:42 | biblioitems.timestamp maybe? | |
| 02:42 | depending on how that's used | |
| 02:42 | thd | kados: maybe but no koha field stores the value in the exact required format unless I am mistaken |
| 02:42 | kados | I'll go with it for now then I'll check to make sure I'm right later |
| 02:43 | k ... what's next? | |
| 02:43 | 006 I'm guessing | |
| 02:43 | thd | fractional second appear after the dot but could be fractional seconds '0' |
| 02:44 | kados | thd: yep, I've got it noted ... for now it's just 2006-12-30 |
| 02:44 | thd: but I'll definitely add that functionality as it's quite easy | |
| 02:44 | thd: but I'm just eager to get a working framework in place | |
| 02:44 | because I've got a webex demo on Thur :-) | |
| 02:44 | thd | kados: updates also affect a leader value |
| 02:44 | kados | updates to what? |
| 02:44 | 005? | |
| 02:45 | thd | kados: record updates |
| 02:45 | kados | right |
| 02:45 | I know that already | |
| 02:45 | we already support that | |
| 02:45 | I don't see any need to create a separate framework for each material JUST for updates | |
| 02:45 | lets move to 005 | |
| 02:45 | sorry ... 006 | |
| 02:45 | this looks a lot like the leader | |
| 02:46 | in terms of what it's supposed to do | |
| 02:46 | well ... look like | |
| 02:46 | leader has 24 char positions | |
| 02:46 | 006 has 17 | |
| 02:46 | no sweat | |
| 02:46 | thd | kados: 006 s for additional material and is not needed unless you have a complex type of material to catalogue composed of multiple parts |
| 02:47 | kados | so what's our default value supposed to be? |
| 02:47 | thd | kados: That could of course be something as simple as a CD with a booklet insert though. |
| 02:47 | kados | I guess I'll need to wait on that one since I still dont know how to adjust those leader scripts |
| 02:47 | I forgot | |
| 02:47 | I'll ask paul about it tomorrow | |
| 02:48 | but in the meatime, what shoudl the values be for a BOOK or for DEFAULT? | |
| 02:48 | (so that I can fill them when i find out from paul tomorrow how to do so) | |
| 02:48 | thd: do you know? | |
| 02:48 | thd | kados: 006 is not needed in most cases but would be for some types of material |
| 02:48 | kados | ok ... should we move on then>? |
| 02:49 | thd | kados: yes |
| 02:49 | kados | 007 Physical Description Fixed Field |
| 02:50 | thd | kados: 007 is not mandatory but is very nice for someone like me who wants to do a lot of work to make good cataloguing easy. |
| 02:50 | kados | right |
| 02:50 | so should it be an authorized value? | |
| 02:50 | thd | kados: it needs a complex plugin |
| 02:51 | kados: it is like the leader only more complex | |
| 02:51 | kados | right I see that |
| 02:51 | ok ... 008 then | |
| 02:51 | same deal there | |
| 02:51 | thd | kados: 008 is similar but mandatory |
| 02:51 | kados | ok ... so I need to ask paul tomorrow morning about how to handle these |
| 02:51 | i just can't figure out how the plugin works in this case | |
| 02:52 | thd: what's next? | |
| 02:52 | thd | kados: If we can understand how his plugins work it should merely be work to build more complex ones. |
| 02:52 | kados | yep, shouldn't be too hard |
| 02:53 | thd | kados: That is all the control fields |
| 02:53 | kados | sweet ... not really that bad after all :-) |
| 02:54 | thd | kados: other fields are mandatory and could use much support but 000-008 are the most difficult for humans |
| 02:55 | kados | strange ... |
| 02:55 | 003 has stopped showing up | |
| 02:55 | ahh ... I bet I know why | |
| 02:56 | thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]eworkcode=Default | |
| 02:56 | thd: it's a start anyway | |
| 02:56 | thd: thanks for your help | |
| 02:56 | thd | kados: paul's code may do nothing for record size etc. in the leader but he may envision treating that outside the editor. |
| 02:57 | kados | yea ... I think MARC::Record already handles that actually |
| 02:58 | thd | kados: it should not require pressing a JavaScript link to fill an initial default value. |
| 02:59 | kados: There should be some way of auto activating default values for plugins if the field is empty. | |
| 03:00 | kados | there is such a way |
| 03:01 | thd | kados: also the three dots are difficult to spot. There should be something more visible that signifies the function. |
| 03:01 | kados | yep |
| 03:02 | thd | kados: cataloguers can always be informed but there is a related function in the OPAC that must be missed by most users |
| 03:03 | kados: About the best feature of Koha is almost hidden. | |
| 03:04 | kados: It should be shouted as a great advancement in user interfaces for library applications. | |
| 03:04 | kados | yep |
| 03:09 | thd: before you go | |
| 03:09 | thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]mple/addbiblio.pl | |
| 03:10 | check out the functionality of the 005 | |
| 03:10 | don't click on the ... | |
| 03:10 | just put your cursor in the field | |
| 03:10 | today's date should appear :-) | |
| 03:10 | thd | kados: I just thought of a cheap way to separate the OPAC MARC view from the fields specified for the cataloguer to use by default. |
| 03:14 | kados: the old value should appear until the record is submitted but a new value should not require any user action other than submitting the record. | |
| 03:15 | above sentence for 005 | |
| 03:15 | kados | ok ... I've got to get to bed |
| 03:15 | thd | kados: of curse you need the right date time format still but you understood that. |
| 03:16 | kados | or else I'll miss paul ... won't get up in time :-) |
| 03:16 | thd | like me unless I stay up and then miss you |
| 03:17 | kados | heh |
| 03:32 | thd | kados: I had forgotten something important that confused me about your leader examples. |
| 03:33 | kados: position numbering starts with 00 so that 06 is in the seventh position. | |
| 05:31 | osmoze | hello |
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