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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:02 | paul | sorry, disconnected my networkcard with my foot... |
| 12:02 | I repeat my question : | |
| 12:02 | GST Registered | |
| 12:02 | how to translate this to french is our question... | |
| 12:02 | so, if someone could explain what it means. | |
| 12:15 | Ben | er, 'enregistré par GST'? |
| 12:15 | at a rough guess | |
| 12:17 | can we not get google languages to translate the strings into english and then reword them? | |
| 12:17 | is anyone here? | |
| 12:18 | paul | yes Ben. |
| 12:18 | Ben | right |
| 12:18 | paul | the problem is that this rough translation means nothing in french |
| 12:19 | Ben | 'GST Registered' would mean, roughly, 'enregistré par GST' |
| 12:19 | paul | (at least, nothing interesting) |
| 12:19 | Ben | I don't know what (the?) GST is |
| 12:19 | paul | The translator (a woman) wondered if it were not a typical term in english |
| 12:19 | (GST : TVA in french) | |
| 12:19 | Ben | oh |
| 12:20 | what does it actually stand for? i.e. TGV stands for train grande vitesse | |
| 12:25 | paul | TVA : Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée |
| 12:25 | (19,6% in France) | |
| 12:26 | (GIST is the complete english term i think) | |
| 12:27 | Ben | ok |
| 12:30 | shaun should be back on in a second - the simpsons has finished :) | |
| 12:30 | kados | hehe |
| 12:31 | yea ... pretty big news | |
| 12:32 | Ben | adobe's website has gone down after being listed on slashdot |
| 12:32 | kados | hehe |
| 12:32 | Ben | and I still have some script writing to do, plus two weeks' geog coursework to be handed in tomorrow |
| 12:32 | nyargh.. | |
| 12:34 | we must get the argentinians to give us their code, or you're heading for a very tedious & repetitive coding session | |
| 12:35 | but how.. | |
| 12:46 | shaun | im back - i was also doing geography coursework :p |
| 12:49 | Ben | lol |
| 12:49 | shaun, do you know any perl at all? | |
| 12:50 | shaun | yes |
| 12:51 | much more than my c(++), much less than my php | |
| 12:51 | Ben | shaun, good work on the mods to the circulation tmpl. can you change 'enter borrower...' to a paragraph |
| 12:52 | and duplicate the formatting of 'settings' below in a new item 'Issues', to be placed just above the input box | |
| 12:52 | shaun | " Enter borrower card number or partial last name" ? |
| 12:52 | Ben | yes |
| 12:52 | then change 'circulation: issues' to 'circulation' | |
| 12:53 | shaun | imo, circulation: issues is better - circulation is the heading for the section. |
| 12:56 | btw: can anybody help with using cvs? I am in a terminal, and don't know what server and repository to use... | |
| 12:59 | over at sourceforge it says "cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co -P modulename" -- what is the modulename? |
|
| 12:59 | kados | use co koha |
| 12:59 | for head | |
| 12:59 | use co -r rel_2_2 koha for 2.2 | |
| 12:59 | don't need the -P | |
| 13:00 | shaun | so "cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymouscvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co koha" |
| 13:00 | wow - big downloads... | |
| 13:01 | so, if I edit the template (say returns.tmpl was buggy - i'll try my hand at that first), how do I commit the changes with my sourceforge username etc.? | |
| 13:02 | kados | well ... you'll need to check it out as your sourceforge user |
| 13:02 | then just do cvs commit filename | |
| 13:02 | shaun | is that relative to the current directory? |
| 13:02 | kados | so I run cvs -z3 -d:joshferrarocvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co koha |
| 13:03 | well after you check out the tree you'll navigate to your file, make the changes then do cvs commit filename | |
| 13:04 | Ben | shaun,. could you please make the changes I asked you to do, or send me the tmpl? |
| 13:06 | hmm, Adobe Dreamweaver.. | |
| 13:06 | shaun | so, im in /home/shaun, which has a subdirectory koha/ - I just use "cvs commit koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/default/en/circ/returns.tmpl" ? |
| 13:06 | kados | yep provided you checkd out koha as your sourceforge user |
| 13:06 | shaun | | OT: I'm wondering what will come of GoLive |
| 13:06 | kados | otherwise it won't work |
| 13:07 | shaun | *checks out cvs* |
| 13:07 | thanks | |
| 13:08 | Ben | hopefully golive will be crushed and burned |
| 13:08 | gtg | |
| 13:08 | bye | |
| 13:08 | shaun | bye |
| 13:16 | if anyone is here: cvs [server aborted]: "commit" requires write access to the repository | |
| 13:18 | brb | |
| 13:18 | kados | shaun: right ... so in order to commit stuff paul'll have to add you to the Koha developer list on sourceforge |
| 13:19 | shaun | chris added me last night |
| 13:19 | kados | huh |
| 13:19 | strange | |
| 13:19 | are you sure you checked out the repo as your user? | |
| 13:19 | shaun | https://sourceforge.net/projec[…]hp?group_id=16466 |
| 13:20 | Root: :pserver:shaunevanscvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha |
|
| 13:20 | i really have to go - i'll be back in less than an hour | |
| 13:31 | kados | pserver won't work shaun |
| 13:31 | you have to use ssh | |
| 13:50 | shaun | ah, that's it - how does that work? |
| 13:51 | kados | read this: http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=16466 |
| 13:51 | http://sourceforge.net/docman/[…]id=768&group_id=1 | |
| 13:51 | http://sourceforge.net/docman/[…]=14033&group_id=1 | |
| 13:51 | :-) | |
| 13:55 | shaun | done - im checking viewcvs just to make sure i haven't killed cvs ;) |
| 13:57 | oh damn - owen got there first :p | |
| 13:57 | owen | on rel_2_2 only |
| 13:57 | But you should be working in HEAD | |
| 13:59 | If you'd like to get emails when someone makes a commit (to keep track of what's new), go here: https://lists.sourceforge.net/[…]listinfo/koha-cvs | |
| 13:59 | There's also this list, for bugs: https://lists.sourceforge.net/[…]istinfo/koha-bugs | |
| 14:00 | shaun | it doesnt seem to have gone in - any idea where the file I have committed would be> |
| 14:00 | ? | |
| 14:01 | kados | are they new files? |
| 14:02 | shaun | just returns.tmpl - Owen committed the change to 2.2, afaik - I tried to commit the change to HEAD |
| 14:02 | shaunevanscvs.sourceforge.net's password: |
|
| 14:02 | Checking in koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/default/en/circ/returns.tmpl; | |
| 14:02 | new revision: 1.19; previous revision: 1.18 | |
| 14:02 | done | |
| 14:02 | Mailing koha-cvslists.sourceforge.net... |
|
| 14:02 | Generating notification message... | |
| 14:02 | Generating notification message... done. | |
| 14:02 | [shaunbuildsys koha.dev]$ |
|
| 14:02 | kados | yea ... so sourceforge seems pretty slow today based on a commit I made recently |
| 14:02 | paul_dine | good news : it's in HEAD |
| 14:02 | kados | give it a few hours |
| 14:02 | ;-) | |
| 14:03 | shaun | lol |
| 14:03 | paul: how do you know? by checking out? | |
| 14:03 | paul | I know by koha-cvs mailing list) |
| 14:03 | shaun | maybe the list message isn't up on sourceforge either... |
| 14:03 | kados | the webview of cvs is usually way behind the actual tree |
| 14:04 | paul | iirc, that's updated only once every X hours. |
| 14:04 | kados | paul did you get my earlier commit to HEAD too? |
| 14:04 | shaun | *signs up to mailing list, creating even more thunderbird rules* |
| 14:04 | paul | opac-search? yes |
| 14:04 | kados | yea that's the one |
| 14:04 | paul | 9:11 |
| 14:04 | kados | I'm working on the suggest database creation script (documenting it) |
| 14:04 | I'll commit it as soon as i've finished | |
| 14:05 | paul | shaun : commit is OK, as well as log message. I'll take care of it for 2.2 branch. |
| 14:05 | kados | it builds db for suggest, spellcheck, and search log |
| 14:05 | shaun | ok thanks - yay, my first commit on koha :) |
| 14:05 | kados | congrats shaun |
| 14:05 | paul | let's have a virtual drink |
| 14:05 | kados | hehe |
| 14:05 | shaun | lol |
| 14:06 | paul | I offer "pastis", the alcohol that all ppl in Marseille drinks |
| 14:06 | Ben | hihi |
| 14:06 | paul | hehe, we drink, so Ben arrives, that's it shaun ? |
| 14:07 | Ben | lol |
| 14:07 | I am not an alcohol-induce hallucinate vision | |
| 14:07 | *induced | |
| 14:07 | anyway.. | |
| 14:08 | shaun | Ben: all are alcohol our belong to you ;) |
| 14:08 | kados | hehe |
| 14:08 | Ben | shaun, circulation.tmpl, returns.tmpl and branchtransfers.tmpl please |
| 14:08 | shaun | waawaawaa - you editing my templates again... what's wrong with the latter two? |
| 14:09 | Ben | well, I don't actually want branchtransfers.pl, but the labels don't line up with the inputs, and there is a 'messages' box displayed even when there are no messages |
| 14:09 | shaun | How do I build a directory structure in the style of either the release tarballs or the installed system at /usr/local/koha (for me, anyway) from CVS head? |
| 14:09 | Ben | circulation.tmpl & returns.tmpl please shaun |
| 14:10 | paul | shaun : misc/buildrelease |
| 14:10 | shaun | hang on, signing in to IM |
| 14:10 | Ben | ok |
| 14:10 | shaun | ah, brilliant |
| 14:10 | Ben | what's brilliant |
| 14:11 | ? | |
| 14:11 | shaun | paul: shaun : misc/buildrelease |
| 14:11 | Ben | ah. |
| 14:11 | paul | to build a tarball release : $koharoot/misc/buildrelease sh script |
| 14:12 | shaun | isn't it a perl script? |
| 14:12 | Ben | (slightly) |
| 14:12 | paul | oups, right. |
| 14:12 | it's a perl script. | |
| 14:12 | (without the .pl extension, that's why i made the mistake | |
| 14:13 | Ben | shaun, *files please!* |
| 14:14 | shaun | what's wrong with the current ones? I find it much easier to implement changes at this end if you tell me what's wrong - diffing the files is no good |
| 14:15 | Ben | *deep breath* |
| 14:15 | change the header 'enter borrower... last name' to left-aligned | |
| 14:16 | shaun | paul: it worked - I now have a koha-2.2.2.1.tar.gz that I don't know what to do with... :D |
| 14:16 | Ben | change the spacing between it and the input box to match 'settings' etc |
| 14:16 | paul | tar xvfz koha-2.2.2.1.tar.gz |
| 14:16 | Ben | and matcvh all the other spacing in that div |
| 14:16 | paul | ./installer.pl to install your version. |
| 14:16 | Ben | to the settings div |
| 14:17 | paul | in misc, there is an uninstaller too. |
| 14:17 | so you can test your packages | |
| 14:17 | Ben | also, there is too much space underneath the settings div |
| 14:18 | shaun | I don't want it to overwrite current config... I'll stick with 2.2.2 and just modify the templates for now... |
| 14:19 | just noticed - /tmp now contains a file called xses-shaun.jEReMy - I was talking to somebody called jeremy today :% | |
| 14:20 | i'm not ignoring you - i'm merely being silent while doing coursework... | |
| 14:21 | Ben | you're being pretty vocal to paul |
| 14:22 | thankyou for doing the autofocus javascript | |
| 14:22 | shaun | can we wait to do this until tomorrow? I will be free, having handed in my coursework, and we will probably have talked to the katipo developers by then. |
| 14:23 | Ben | they being? |
| 14:24 | shaun | chris in nz (not katipo), plus rach and si (don't know much about si) |
| 14:24 | paul: jooi, how did you become release manager? | |
| 14:24 | Ben | ok |
| 14:24 | paul | jooi ? |
| 14:25 | shaun | o... just out of interest |
| 14:25 | paul | ok, thanks. |
| 14:25 | I became a release manager because : | |
| 14:25 | shaun | (soz, i go ott with my toflas) |
| 14:25 | paul | 1- I was highly involved in the project |
| 14:25 | 2- I candidated to developp what was wanted (& was paid for that) | |
| 14:25 | 3- I applied to be RM ;-) | |
| 14:26 | as ppl were happy with me for 2.0.0, I applied again for 2.2.x | |
| 14:26 | shaun | don't mean to be nosy, but who employs you to develop it? |
| 14:26 | paul | I could have applied for 2.4 once again, but I hope someone else will come with idea & take the role. |
| 14:26 | you're not nosy. | |
| 14:27 | nobody employs me. i'm self employed. | |
| 14:27 | but some libraries wanted to add some features to this great tools & launched a RFP. | |
| 14:28 | shaun | if i knew perl, I would probably jump for it - I have the time, most of the time... |
| 14:28 | paul | then, some libraries came and said "ok, Koha is great, but I can't use it witjhout XXX, who want to develop this for me, for the price I would have to pay for a proprietary ILS" |
| 14:29 | now I've many customers that want me to install Koha. For the price I charge I have time to develop new features. | |
| 14:29 | and I work with Henri Damien Laurent (nick hdl), at full-time on Koha | |
| 14:29 | you know the story now ;-) | |
| 14:30 | Ben | so we are working by kernel version rules. |
| 14:30 | going up in twos | |
| 14:30 | shaun | i c |
| 14:30 | so, is 2.3 in existence (is it in english :p )? | |
| 14:31 | Ben | well, I am writing a presentation to give to ODFE soonish, as soon as we have got this general messy revamping sorted, inc. hopefully extracting the code from the argentinians |
| 14:32 | shaun | btw: Paul, was it you who I told about why we are involved in Koha (about Linux in education)? I have a pic you may want to see |
| 14:32 | paul | kados & al : do you know why my changes on the wiki don't appear ? |
| 14:32 | (on my RSS feed i mean) | |
| 14:32 | kados | no ... |
| 14:32 | Ben | shaun, can I please see the pic as well? |
| 14:33 | paul | yes, send the address. |
| 14:33 | shaun | ben, you've seen it; http://dev.shaunevans.co.uk/fles/Screenshot.png (i think) |
| 14:33 | Ben | oh, fles |
| 14:33 | paul | strange, because i've rss feed on april, 9, and 4 |
| 14:34 | shaun : i expected a picture of YOU ;-) | |
| 14:34 | kados | what's this screenshot for? |
| 14:34 | shaun | being an RHEL clone, it still has the red hat... the interface work (metacity and gtk themes) was done by me based on the clearlooks engine, the icons are RH Bluecurve |
| 14:34 | Ben | I told owen why we're doing koha |
| 14:35 | kados, shaun is making a linux distro taylored for education based on RHEL | |
| 14:35 | shaun | FLES - the Free/Libre Educational System *name is open for debate with ben ;)* |
| 14:35 | kados | sweet |
| 14:35 | Ben | *tailored |
| 14:35 | shaun | this is how we became involved in koha in the first place |
| 14:35 | Ben | you told me is was free linux... :( |
| 14:35 | it | |
| 14:35 | shaun | i didnt tell you that |
| 14:36 | you thought of that in your sleep - one night it was FLES, the next morning it was another FLES :p | |
| 14:36 | wdyt of the screenshot? | |
| 14:36 | Ben | (20:49:37) Shaun: free linux education something. |
| 14:37 | shaun | focus isn't on linux - the tools might run on windows just as well, after all ;) |
| 14:37 | Ben | oh well |
| 14:38 | anyway, shaun is developing a linux distro for education, including giant-graphics-tablet-syncronised-with-projector support, and some remote control software.. | |
| 14:40 | and we wanted a library system. shaun drew my attention to koha, which I said I was very impressed with, and I asked him to install it. two reinstallations due to shaun buggering it up later, and we had a working ish koha, which we have been improving for a while now | |
| 14:40 | shaun | earlier: "I am the founder of a Linux distro that will be used in primary and secondary schools in the UK - based on RHEL, with lots of things that schools find useful, e.g. vnc based remote control, pre-designed intranet and remote management, and I am including lots of OSS that RHEL does not come with, e.g. DansGuardian for filtering - the obvious choice for the library system was Koha, but we thought the interface had a lot of room for improve |
| 14:40 | ment, and so, I am here now." | |
| 14:42 | Ben | and are hoping to install it on our school's server, saving the school €3 600 ($4,800) |
| 14:43 | paul_bed | ok guys, take care. I go to bed. Then 4 days in Paris then Ouest provence. |
| 14:43 | Ben | yay.. |
| 14:43 | paul_bed | will be back on monday, 25 |
| 14:43 | Ben | bye paul |
| 14:43 | shaun | thanks paul, see you later |
| 14:44 | http://www.informationweek.com[…]ticleID=160900911 | |
| 14:44 | Ben | shaun, shall I invite doddy in? |
| 14:44 | read it via slashdot ealier | |
| 14:44 | load of b*******s | |
| 14:45 | shaun, shall I invite doddy in? | |
| 14:45 | shaun | does doddy spend time on irc? what would he be talking about... |
| 14:45 | Ben | dunno |
| 14:46 | yes or no? | |
| 14:46 | answer needed now..! | |
| 14:47 | shaun | well, invite him in, but im not available for talking atm |
| 14:52 | DoddyUK | lo all |
| 14:53 | kados | hi there |
| 14:54 | DoddyUK | :) |
| 14:54 | hows everyone? | |
| 14:55 | Ben | ok |
| 14:55 | kados, this is mike dodd, one of our open source enthusiast colleages | |
| 14:55 | doddy, kados is a koha dev | |
| 14:56 | paul_bed | paul really go to bed now. Will read irc logs on http://koha.org/irc later... |
| 14:56 | Ben | bye paul |
| 14:56 | brb | |
| 14:56 | DoddyUK | bye |
| 14:58 | shaun | doddy - are you using xchat, chatzilla or what? |
| 14:59 | kados - when do the new zealanders at katipo come online? | |
| 15:00 | kados | anytime now |
| 15:00 | shaun | ooh |
| 15:00 | doddy also comes to the school that we will probably be getting koha to run in, and afaik helps out the techs | |
| 15:05 | kados | great |
| 15:06 | shaun | the last few days have been hectic and i can't remember this... kados, did you see the templates up at http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/ ? |
| 15:07 | kados | yep they look nice |
| 15:08 | you can bypass that initial refresh screen with a scriptallias in your virtual host | |
| 15:09 | something like: | |
| 15:09 | ScriptAlias /index.html "/path/to/mainpage.pl" | |
| 15:09 | shaun | well, i was thinking of replacing it with a colourful splash screen with the koha logo on, and increasing the refresh time to 3 or 4 seconds |
| 15:09 | kados | oughta do it |
| 15:11 | owen | But your librarians will hate having to see it every day ;) |
| 15:12 | kados | hehe |
| 15:12 | shaun | i don't know... the ALICE startup is quite painful - takes 3 minutes, on a good day (it could be turned off easily enough - just get the tech to delete the img tag, and reduce the refresh time to 0 - or use kados' method, ScriptAlias) |
| 15:14 | talking of which - I was talking to the tech support guy in school, and he said that the entire ALICE database was stored in a few gigs' worth of flatfile... no wonder it's slow... | |
| 15:16 | *was expecting lols, maybe either my sense of humour is going, or everybody is sleeping...* | |
| 15:20 | indradg | shaun, I was reading up the transcript... just a word of advice abt using RHAT specific graphics in your custom distro |
| 15:21 | RHAT specific graphics are copyrighted and yes propietory to RHAT... you can't reuse the shadowman logo | |
| 15:21 | it violates the RHEL EULA | |
| 15:21 | you might want to look into that | |
| 15:21 | shaun | im not using red hat logos, just the icons |
| 15:22 | indradg | ok... you screenshot shows the smallish shadowman logo as the main menu graphics |
| 15:22 | shaun | wbel, centos, lineox, tao linux etc use the Bluecurve theme, but have replaced all instances of the hat with their own project logos |
| 15:22 | indradg | yep.. themes are OK |
| 15:22 | shaun | yes - i said earlier that we will replace that, but we don't have a logo of our own yet |
| 15:22 | indradg | cool |
| 15:22 | shaun | (i should start my own irc channel for this...) |
| 15:23 | indradg | not a bad idea |
| 15:24 | shaun | know any hosts? i don't like freenode, don't know why... |
| 15:24 | does anybody have a need for rpms of koha, that work out of the box for fedora and rhel-based distros? | |
| 15:28 | well, never mind, because i'm making them anyway for my distro... | |
| 15:35 | kados | good luck with that ;-) |
| 15:35 | it's quite tricky | |
| 15:35 | shaun | "it's quite tricky" -- how? |
| 15:36 | kados | well ... try packaging yaz for instance |
| 15:36 | shaun | see http://ftp.indexdata.dk/pub/yaz/redhat/fc2/ |
| 15:37 | they've done it... | |
| 15:37 | I'm running my koha installation on those rpms on this box, btw | |
| 15:39 | the only perl module which doesn't have an rpm that i'm aware of is z39.50 - which I can probably achieve by reverse engineering the current source rpms for perl modules, and then writing a specfile with a dependency of yaz... | |
| 15:39 | kados | cool ... well I've got my Koha installs down to 8 mins without an rpm so I never got around to it |
| 15:39 | you'll need "Event" too IIRC | |
| 15:39 | shaun | what systems are you running? |
| 15:40 | kados | I've got koha installed on Debian woody and sarge, FC2, 3, RHEL4, and OSX |
| 15:40 | shaun | iirc? (ive never had a chance to ask 8-( ) |
| 15:40 | kados | or do you mean where ... location? |
| 15:40 | shaun | no, i meant what distros/OSes |
| 15:40 | kados | right |
| 15:40 | IIRC if I recall correctly | |
| 15:41 | I wrote all the install manuals on kohadocs ;-) | |
| 15:41 | shaun | anyway, making an rpm would be nothing compared to making an msi :p |
| 15:42 | kados | hehe |
| 15:42 | indradg | i installed Koha on Gentoo.... plan to write an ebuild one of these days |
| 15:42 | kados | cool |
| 15:42 | shaun | well, please share the ebuild - i can probably use it to make the specfile, if i dont get there first... |
| 15:42 | kados | I've never gotten around to it mainly because all the packages Koha relies on as well as Koha itself are in a constant state of flux |
| 15:43 | and it's user-base isn't exactly wide | |
| 15:43 | indradg | well... package maintanence is an issue |
| 15:43 | kados | and if you're brave enough to run your own ILS you better know how to put it together |
| 15:43 | piece by piece | |
| 15:43 | well I differ slightly in my approace | |
| 15:43 | I usually scrap the whole OS when I do an upgrade | |
| 15:44 | approach that is | |
| 15:44 | swap hardware too | |
| 15:44 | indradg | kados, that sounds a bit extreme ;) |
| 15:44 | kados | that way I get to play around with different distros |
| 15:44 | it's pretty simple | |
| 15:45 | i just change the IP address of the 'testing' machine to the IP of the 'production' | |
| 15:45 | shaun | you should only have to run emerge -uD world and come back a week later, then have a working operating system - then you have to install koha on it. |
| 15:45 | kados | I leave the production machine on but unplugged from the network for abotua week after the upgrade just in case |
| 15:46 | then I double-check I've got all the data I need from it and start over ... | |
| 15:46 | indradg | cool |
| 15:47 | kados, my blogpost http://blogs.randomink.org/node/view/206 | |
| 15:47 | shaun | talking of which: i am getting a new hd tomorrow, and i am moving the current one over to my server, so i can set up an svn repo for the new templates, and host them up all the time, and i wont be randomly deleting chunks of stuff to find a couple megs of disk space any more... |
| 15:47 | indradg | kados, here is a sample library card -> http://www.randomink.org/indra[…]ages/src-card.jpg |
| 15:48 | kados | cool |
| 15:48 | shaun | wow... |
| 15:49 | kados | indradg: where's your rss? |
| 15:50 | got it | |
| 15:50 | my blog is at kados.org ;-) | |
| 15:51 | I haven't been too active lately with the new company and all | |
| 15:51 | and it's really really slow due to being on an old 486 | |
| 15:51 | indradg | as lame as it may sound this is first time that an university in eastern india is going for barcoded library card along with complete barcoding of all the items... and yes it all runs on Koha :D |
| 15:52 | kados | wow |
| 15:52 | might as well go with something newer | |
| 15:52 | fingerprinting | |
| 15:52 | or dna analysis ;-) | |
| 15:52 | or rfid | |
| 15:52 | hehe | |
| 15:53 | naw ... cards look good | |
| 15:53 | indradg | kados, this university has issued abt 100 smart cards to students on a test pilot..... but u know what there isnt a single card reader ;) |
| 15:53 | kados | hehe |
| 15:53 | that's great | |
| 15:54 | shaun | in our library, we use library cards with barcodes, but for the last 8 years, we haven't had a barcode scanner, and probably will not have one in the forseeable future. I fail to see why. |
| 15:55 | indradg | the reason being the IS dept and the company which designed those parts did it on Windows... and hold ur breath! their developers dont know how to use a RS-232c reader in Linux |
| 15:55 | apparently the card reader doesn't come with a linux driver | |
| 15:55 | ;) | |
| 15:57 | shaun | (every time somebody issues a book in our library, the librarian has to type two 16 digit strings of numbers and letters, which seems pointless... this time, because everytime you plug the barcode reader in, the computer crashes, reloads the database, and then repeats several times.) |
| 15:57 | (and that is on windows ;) ) | |
| 15:58 | indradg | so I suggested that they write a user-land driver for kernel 2.6.x... to poll the serio input layer, parse it and re-write the ASCII data to the input layer handler for PS/2 keyboard port... their developers gave me very ugly looks ;) |
| 16:00 | also in india, the cost differential matters a lot.. the barcoded card costs abt US 9cents where as a smart card (microprocessor based) costs abt USD 4.5 | |
| 16:04 | shaun | hmm, rach and co. seem late - owen said evening... |
| 16:04 | chris | im here, just working |
| 16:04 | owen | Well, they've got other business besides Koha |
| 16:05 | shaun | they always seem to be signed in, but not actually online and talking... i want to talk to rach, as i have quite a few questions |
| 16:06 | owen | Sure, if you never log off your machine, why not leave irc open? Makes it easier to catch up on what's been going on. |
| 16:06 | chris | thats what screen is for |
| 16:06 | :) | |
| 16:06 | owen | Send an email to Koha-devel with your questions, and she can answer them when she has time |
| 16:07 | shaun | ok |
| 16:09 | indradg | chris, i hope u didn't see that last indo-pak match... it went horribly for us :P |
| 16:09 | chris | luckily i was watching rugby instead |
| 16:09 | :) | |
| 16:09 | indradg | good :) |
| 16:10 | lowest even domestic total :( | |
| 16:10 | chris | eek |
| 16:11 | indradg | and that too on John Wright's last match as the indian coach |
| 16:11 | kados | too bad they don't have every item |
| 16:12 | indradg | kados, does the use of Amazon API call be any commercial agreement? |
| 16:12 | chris | kados: seen books we like ? (http://bookswelike.net/) |
| 16:12 | kados | cool |
| 16:12 | chris | indradg: sad way to finish up as coach |
| 16:12 | kados | indradg: you need a developer key and associates membership |
| 16:13 | see the docs in the Amazon.pm module (in HEAD0 | |
| 16:13 | HEAD that is | |
| 16:13 | ) | |
| 16:13 | :-) | |
| 16:13 | indradg | kados, will do... when I'm less sleepy in the morning ;) |
| 16:13 | kados | interesting |
| 16:14 | chris | yep |
| 16:15 | kados | they have multiple isbns per item too so it may even be better than Amazon |
| 16:17 | actually it'd be nice to pull that data from lots of places | |
| 16:17 | review, images, ratings, descriptions, everything we can get our hands on | |
| 16:17 | ;-) | |
| 16:17 | chris | the more the better |
| 16:17 | kados | hehe |
| 16:17 | chris | i was thinking some patrons might like to be able to write their reviews and books we like would be good for that |
| 16:18 | kados | right |
| 16:18 | rach | morning |
| 16:18 | kados | morning rach |
| 16:18 | shaun | morning (evening? :p ) rach |
| 16:19 | indradg | shaun, remember the international date line? ;) |
| 16:19 | rach | is morning here |
| 16:20 | shaun | lol, its 10:20 PM here... i'd best be getting ready for 2moz... |
| 16:31 | rach: i've been waiting for you to come online for the whole weekend ;) - how is your progress with the logo and interface redesign going? we (ben and i) have a redesign test up and running at http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/ , un kohaadmin, pw hexthouse - we have yet to port over all the features of the default koha one, but the main features are there - circulations has been patched most so far | |
| 16:31 | im not making sense... v. tired... | |
| 16:32 | it's all in xhtml 1.0 strict | |
| 16:34 | wdyt? | |
| 16:34 | kados | she'll need the password |
| 16:35 | shaun | ^ soz, im not forming sentences properly now... |
| 16:35 | rach | he gave me that |
| 16:36 | looks good shaun (& ben :-) | |
| 16:38 | shaun | thanks - any suggestions for getting the official logo? have you got access to any non-rendered versions like svg? |
| 16:38 | rach | but the colours are much improved :-) |
| 16:38 | yes I can send you that, e-mail me - rachelkatipo.co.nz |
|
| 16:38 | indradg | well... i'm off to sleep... cya all |
| 16:38 | rach | and you'll get one return post |
| 16:38 | kados | night |
| 16:39 | shaun | do you prefer vertical nav for <div id="submenu... and below ? i've seen its a part of the other new redesign (the conceptual one, which i have just seen) |
| 16:39 | (in the flesh!) | |
| 16:39 | rach | yep - and we have done code for the other design |
| 16:40 | owen | ...And NPL's :) |
| 16:40 | shaun | and npl's, yes |
| 16:40 | rach | um yep I do tend to - we have breadcrumbs on our one I think, and it gets a bit stripey otherwise :-) |
| 16:41 | I like your white box top right | |
| 16:42 | shaun | that was done last thursday - for four hours, I was sitting here with bluefish and firefox open - ben was on IM saying "a little to the right", "make that text a little bit darker", "slightly less left padding" and various other things about the header... |
| 16:43 | rach | :-) |
| 16:43 | as you do | |
| 16:44 | shaun | i'm not sure how I could implement vertical nav into our design... |
| 16:45 | rach | ah well, you'll have to stick with horizontal then |
| 16:45 | are you doing this for a particular library? | |
| 16:45 | shaun | owen: it's an html/css/other various web languages editor with helpers eg tag completion |
| 16:46 | owen | Yeah, looking at screenshots now. The lack of a good editor was one of the things that kept me from moving to a Linux desktop at work |
| 16:47 | shaun | i used to use DW - i find bluefish and the GIMP are quite adequate for any design work I want to do - i'm out of my wysiwyg stage now... |
| 16:47 | owen | Yeah, I can't even use DW now if I try. |
| 16:48 | shaun | you have missed a lot ;) - i'm doing it because i'm the founder of a project to build a linux distro for use in the education environment. obviously, secondary schools need some form of free libre library automation system, and koha seemed the most logical choice ;) |
| 16:50 | rach | excellent |
| 16:50 | shaun | we thought there was a lot of room for improvement in the default template, and i'm primarily a web *coder* (ben...) and a designer, so i thought I could help. |
| 16:51 | rach | great |
| 16:51 | you won't find any argument about that here | |
| 16:51 | personally I'm not very into the "boxes" look | |
| 16:52 | kados | msg chris my how things have changed |
| 16:52 | owen | I think the more the merrier is the way to go with templates, but it is a LOT of work to keep up with updates. It's important that we get template authors to commit themselves to sticking with it. |
| 16:52 | rach | http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album102/cat_search |
| 16:52 | kados | oops ... /me hates when that happens |
| 16:52 | rach | we did this for 2.0 |
| 16:52 | and have people using that | |
| 16:53 | kados | remember how many templates we had for 1.2? |
| 16:53 | rach | we did a quick makeover on 2.2 for going to sydney, which is the bison version |
| 16:53 | kados | there were like 6 or seven at one point |
| 16:53 | rach | yep, they are hard work to keep up to date |
| 16:53 | kados | yep |
| 16:53 | chris | it has some *issues* tho |
| 16:53 | rach | yes it does |
| 16:53 | chris | which is why its not been committed yet |
| 16:53 | kados | LibLime's templates aren't ready for commmitment yet ... we're still working with a modified version of NPL |
| 16:53 | shaun | what are the issues? |
| 16:53 | kados | for our demos |
| 16:54 | rach | well you have to make sure that they do actually work :-) |
| 16:54 | chris | bugs in the templates |
| 16:54 | kados | mainly just HTML/CSS problems in IE for us |
| 16:54 | chris | some of the html ppl got a little overzealous |
| 16:54 | and changed some of the TMPL_VAR bits .. or removed them | |
| 16:54 | kados | hehe |
| 16:54 | chris | tends to go badly :) |
| 16:54 | rach | mad buggers - did they |
| 16:54 | kados | what the heck are those things ... get them outa here ;-) |
| 16:54 | owen | :D |
| 16:55 | kados | this is going to be CLEAN html ;-) |
| 16:55 | rach | doing one set of templates is easy |
| 16:55 | redoing them every time a new feature is added less so | |
| 16:56 | kados | yep ... it's a pain |
| 16:56 | rach | hence we tend to do them for particular clients at a particular point in time, if they are geting mods as well |
| 16:56 | kados | there must be a better way |
| 16:56 | owen | Sometimes I find it's easier to re-do a particular template from scratch rather than try to puzzle out the diff |
| 16:56 | rach | you can do a lot with the CSS |
| 16:56 | shaun | separate content from presentation and keep it modular ;) |
| 16:56 | kados | yea ... great in theory |
| 16:56 | but hard in practice | |
| 16:56 | owen | Yeah, but what if your idea of modular isn't the same as the next guy's? |
| 16:57 | rach | but some of the things that *I* think are wrong with any given "page" or module, are say the architecture of the page |
| 16:57 | rather than just the colour | |
| 16:57 | kados | and remmeber that the order of the html actually does limit your use of the css |
| 16:57 | rach | http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8[…].pl?type=intranet |
| 16:57 | is a great example | |
| 16:57 | kados | user/pass? |
| 16:57 | rach | of a page taht I think has some architectural problems |
| 16:57 | erm | |
| 16:57 | it was up a bit - kohaadmin | |
| 16:58 | shaun | kohaadmin, hexthouse |
| 16:58 | rach | hexthouse |
| 16:58 | owen | Yeah, those long forms are a pain. |
| 16:58 | kados | how wicken of you |
| 16:58 | ;-) | |
| 16:59 | owen | (shaun -- I find this page has a little too much white space, by the way) |
| 16:59 | shaun | i haven't been into catalogue yet - hence most things /are/ broken ;) |
| 17:00 | rach | ah so what's a bit you have? |
| 17:00 | shaun | for some reason, all of the fields are in <p>s, and so there is unnecessary padding |
| 17:00 | circulation | |
| 17:00 | | i will be changing them all over to plain labels, within divs tomorrow | |
| 17:00 | lol | |
| 17:00 | kados | just define <p> in your css |
| 17:01 | without padding | |
| 17:01 | shaun | *shaun realises it is 11:00, and he really needs to finish off this work for tomorrow* |
| 17:01 | kados | IMO, in some cases, <p>s are better for older browser support |
| 17:01 | shaun | i could, but i'm touching up the html/templates anyway tomorrow |
| 17:03 | well, rach (or chris, can't remember) said that it's best to keep with mozilla-based browsers, as the librarians probably won't be using IE - and the chance of somebody using something like IE4, NS6 or some other ridiculously underused browser as their library terminal is minimal... | |
| 17:03 | rach | :-) |
| 17:03 | not really | |
| 17:03 | chris | i was saying the opac needs to be careful |
| 17:03 | rach | it should at least work in IE |
| 17:03 | kados | that may be true of the intranet |
| 17:03 | shaun | it was chris then... |
| 17:04 | kados | but imo the opac should work in every browser |
| 17:04 | chris | but for our clients the intranet should work best in mozilla |
| 17:04 | rach | and the OPAC must work in IE i |
| 17:04 | kados | our's works in the original web browser ;-) |
| 17:04 | chris | and if that means it looks a little poxy for IE .. serves them right |
| 17:05 | shaun | the opac is much less complicated... go firefox, when it comes to providing a decent "desktop client" for a koha system, imo |
| 17:05 | chris | lots of opacs are open to the world |
| 17:05 | so it needs to work in everything | |
| 17:05 | kados | the PINES Evergreen folks are going with a firefox extension for their intranet interface btw |
| 17:05 | rach | you have to work in everything for the OPAC, even older IE etc |
| 17:05 | shaun | any browser which supports forms, inputs and divs should not break the opac... |
| 17:08 | rach | well all power to you shaun |
| 17:08 | look forward to seeing the finished product | |
| 17:08 | kados | ditto |
| 17:09 | shaun | by hiding the css through @import, the older browsers are kept out anyway, and see the page without css - so then you only need to worry about NS6/7 and IE5+ - is it worth going to the time and effort to support "picky" interface features for pre-IE5, and pre-NS6 ? |
| 17:09 | talking about opac, there | |
| 17:10 | kados | my perspective is that most of my potential clients are not computer savvy |
| 17:11 | rach | none of my clients are computer savvy :-) |
| 17:11 | if they were they wouldn't need us | |
| 17:11 | kados | so if they see a weird opac because they have an older browser |
| 17:11 | the're not going to realize it's their fault | |
| 17:11 | rach | but if you're doing this for the DIY koha folks that's all good |
| 17:11 | shaun | (i dont like making a decision like that - anybody got any apache logs for the client data?) |
| 17:11 | rach | ? |
| 17:11 | you'd have to get that on a per client basis | |
| 17:12 | shaun | soz, by client i meant browser and platform |
| 17:12 | rach | the stats for us here in NZ will be different to you in UK (? I think that's where you're from?) or the US or Uganda |
| 17:12 | kados | I'd rather take the time to build a backwards-compliant interface so it looks decent even on their box ;-) |
| 17:12 | I'll tell you that at NPLS over 50% of our queries are outside the library | |
| 17:13 | on the opac that is | |
| 17:13 | don't have browser stats handy | |
| 17:13 | I was actually surprised at that | |
| 17:13 | I figured more people came to the library and THEN did their search | |
| 17:13 | but most of our folks check first to se if we have something | |
| 17:14 | shaun | i would expect that too, but how many people are using IE4 or NS4? - I don't know what the push is like in NZ, but people in the UK are constantly being told about upgrading their browser etc...) |
| 17:15 | kados | I have some browser stats I used for evaluating my website ... let me see if I can pull them |
| 17:16 | http://www.w3schools.com/brows[…]rowsers_stats.asp | |
| 17:16 | from a marketing friend: | |
| 17:16 | shaun | well, a website's stats would really be different again... e.g. my site receives 60% ff, 30% IE, and 10% script kiddies trying to hack me, while another site on the same server gets about 93% IE, and the rest Safari... |
| 17:16 | kados | Here is some data. I can tell you that our Urchin data |
| 17:16 | (for www.ussearch.com) - we have 4% usage of Firefox and 1.5% of our visitors | |
| 17:16 | are Netscape, and 85% are IE - we have about 6MM uniques a month so I would | |
| 17:16 | think that is decent sample size. Of the 1.5%, 2% are on Netscape 6. All | |
| 17:16 | others are Netscape 7 to 7.2. | |
| 17:17 | shaun | http://www.webopac.plymouth.go[…]sh?enqtype=SEARCH -- where i live's OPAC - this degrades gracefully, but I wouldn't like to see it without non-CSS formatting |
| 17:18 | kados | shaun do you have the web developer plugin for FF? |
| 17:18 | it's a must have | |
| 17:18 | shaun | which would that be? i have editcss and tidy... |
| 17:19 | kados | http://chrispederick.com/work/[…]fox/webdeveloper/ |
| 17:19 | shaun | i think i tried web developer before - i found it annoying |
| 17:20 | yes, this is the same one. | |
| 17:22 | going to bed now, see you tomorrow... the test site is going down btw, it is on this box | |
| 17:22 | kados | I use the outline feature quite often |
| 17:22 | cao ... | |
| 17:23 | shaun | what is cao? |
| 17:26 | bye | |
| 21:21 | kados | chris still around? |
| 21:21 | have you seen this: | |
| 21:21 | http://cdsware.cern.ch/index.shtml | |
| 21:21 | it's damn fast! | |
| 21:22 | chris | yeah its pretty nice |
| 21:23 | coupling it with koha would be good, using it to handle digital documents | |
| 21:23 | kados | I"m wondering if we can skip the whole process of redesigning our search and just integrate CDS |
| 21:24 | chris | hmm probably be more work |
| 21:25 | youd have to redesign acquisitions and circulation | |
| 21:26 | its more like greenstone than it is koha | |
| 21:28 | but it certainly wouldnt hurt to look at how they do their search | |
| 21:29 | its gonna be faster than ours, because its only searching the bibliographical data | |
| 21:30 | kados | and ours is searching holdings data too? |
| 21:31 | chris | and items data |
| 21:31 | kados | right |
| 21:31 | chris | ie, this is for digital data... u dont have the concept of items |
| 21:31 | but maybe for speed we need to do that | |
| 21:31 | kados | paul found a major flaw with my idea: you can't search using phrases |
| 21:32 | hmmm | |
| 21:32 | chris | just search the biblio data |
| 21:32 | kados | well we could have a single table with all the results data pre-populated |
| 21:32 | chris | but then u cant restarict by branch etc |
| 21:32 | -a | |
| 21:32 | kados | I dunno ... I'm not clear on how to do it |
| 21:33 | in my "high perform mysql book' it says that sorting searches often causes slowness | |
| 21:33 | chris | yep |
| 21:34 | its the nature of the searches we are trying to do | |
| 21:34 | kados | if we could have the table auto organized by title and auto-populated we might be able to do the whole search in a single query |
| 21:34 | chris | if ppl knew the titles ofthe books |
| 21:34 | and typed all of them, we could do an exact search and bang itd be super fast | |
| 21:34 | kados | yea |
| 21:34 | chris | its because we have to do like searches |
| 21:35 | kados | in fact, we shouhld allow that kind of search for advanced users |
| 21:35 | chris | we used to |
| 21:35 | kados | with handling of "" |
| 21:35 | chris | it was called exact search |
| 21:35 | kados | yea I know ;-) |
| 21:35 | chris | and rosa wants it back |
| 21:35 | kados | so do I |
| 21:35 | chris | its one of the reasons they are still using 1.2.3 |
| 21:36 | yep, ill put it back when i get a chance | |
| 21:36 | kados | is there a fear of many seperate search indexes for different searches? |
| 21:36 | chris | the only thing is keeping them up to date |
| 21:36 | kados | ahh |
| 21:36 | and real-time is pretty important for the holdings data | |
| 21:36 | hmmm | |
| 21:36 | chris | so acquisitions/cataloguing needs to make sure it updates everything |
| 21:36 | kados | right |
| 21:37 | chris | only one thing worse than slow searches |
| 21:37 | kados | and that could causes slowness on that side ... sigh |
| 21:37 | chris | and thats wrong searches |
| 21:37 | kados | right |
| 21:37 | chris | u know what |
| 21:37 | we really should have an irc brainstorm | |
| 21:37 | kados | what |
| 21:38 | yea that sounds good | |
| 21:38 | chris | invite anyone who is interested |
| 21:38 | kados | haven't had one in a while |
| 21:38 | chris | and have a chat about 2.4 searching |
| 21:38 | kados | that'd be great |
| 21:38 | chris | everyone can bring along some ideas and we can natter and see what comes out of it |
| 21:39 | collectively we must be smart enough to come up with some good plans :) | |
| 21:39 | kados | it's too bad mysql doesn't have more complex data structures internally |
| 21:39 | like perl | |
| 21:39 | chris | ah well it kinda does |
| 21:39 | kados | you could do some really neat stufff |
| 21:39 | chris | i really think we need to look at using the newer mysql features |
| 21:40 | like stored procedures | |
| 21:40 | kados | ohh that looks nice |
| 21:40 | chris | http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql[…]edure-syntax.html |
| 21:41 | kados | yep I'm there |
| 21:41 | chris | and cursors |
| 21:42 | kados | what's the advantace of cursors? |
| 21:42 | advantage | |
| 21:45 | chris | ok, currently our best case scenario |
| 21:46 | we do some query with a limit something | |
| 21:46 | mysql hands us back 10 results or so | |
| 21:46 | then we call it again | |
| 21:46 | to get the next 20 say | |
| 21:46 | next 10 even | |
| 21:47 | so the query gets executed twice, or 3 times etc | |
| 21:47 | now thats the best case | |
| 21:47 | worse case is our query is some complicated we have to break it into 3 separate queries | |
| 21:47 | then use perl to combine the results | |
| 21:47 | and return some number | |
| 21:48 | ie we run three queries, mysql returns all the results for all of them | |
| 21:48 | and then if we want page 2 | |
| 21:48 | we do the same again | |
| 21:48 | make sense so far? | |
| 21:48 | with a stored procedure and a cursor | |
| 21:49 | we define our complicated set of queries in mysql | |
| 21:49 | and the cursor allows us to run it once | |
| 21:49 | and then step thru them | |
| 21:51 | persistence of results | |
| 21:51 | between cgi calls | |
| 21:51 | at least i think thats what they do :) | |
| 21:52 | the other thing that will win us speed, is mod_perl | |
| 21:54 | but i best get back to work :) | |
| 22:27 | kados | right ... sorry I was responding to a LibLime web inquiry (second one today!) |
| 22:28 | NPL is running mod_perl and Apache::DBI | |
| 22:37 | indradg | kados, what kind of speed gains do u see with mod_perl? |
| 22:41 | kados | I didn't notice any ;-) |
| 22:41 | the only noticable speed gains come with a well configured my.cnf | |
| 22:41 | and mysql version 4.0 or greater | |
| 22:42 | (cause of query cache) | |
| 22:42 | which was essential for NPL | |
| 22:42 | server load goes down by about 1000% for us | |
| 22:42 | indradg | hmmm |
| 22:43 | i use mysql 4.x anyway... for proper utf-8 support | |
| 22:44 | chris | you should win a big performance without perl starting and stopping and persistent dbi connections |
| 22:51 | eeeww | |
| 22:52 | im getting horrible performance on my net connection at the moment | |
| 22:53 | kados | well I notice most perf gains from mysql configuration ... |
| 22:54 | chris | yep that will win you the big swings |
| 22:54 | but everything should run faster under mod_perl | |
| 22:54 | kados | and since I have always done that part last it's prolly why I don't notice any difference with the other changes |
| 22:59 | indradg | chris, I'm a perl newbie... so perhaps this is a newbie question... but has anyone tried to use perlcc with koha? |
| 22:59 | chris | not that im aware of |
| 22:59 | might be something to try out some time | |
| 22:59 | indradg | i c |
| 23:00 | chris | The code generated in this way is not guaranteed to work. The whole codegen suite ("perlcc" included) should be con-sidered very experimental. Use for production purposes is strongly discouraged. |
| 23:00 | but theres no harm in trying | |
| 23:00 | indradg | ok |
| 23:12 | gnite | |
| 23:13 | chris | night |
| 11:24 | owen | Hi tim, long time no see |
| 11:26 | tim | Yeah. I had a lot of other stuff to do. Now I forgot most of what I learned before. Stupid short memory. |
| 11:26 | owen | Yeah, I know what you mean. |
| 11:27 | I get that every time I decide I'm going to learn Flash again. | |
| 11:29 | tim | I'm trying to get current item status moved to Koha. The current system doesn't export a borrowernumber or itemnumber. Just the barcodes. |
| 11:30 | I'm hoping there's a MySQL query that could handle it, but so far I'm not having any luck. | |
| 11:30 | owen | Ouch...no circ data at all? |
| 11:32 | tim | Circ data, but I need a way to get borrowernumbers and itemnumbers into issues when the old system uses the barcode numbers instead. |
| 11:33 | owen | Oh, so the old system uses patron barcode and item barcode |
| 11:33 | tim | Yup. |
| 11:34 | owen | It sounds like a good Perl script would do the trick. In what format is the old data in? |
| 11:35 | tim | I have all of the old stuff in the mysql test database now. It exported to dbf and I converted it. |
| 11:37 | So far I've been able to convert everything but the marc records using mysql. | |
| 11:37 | owen | So does your new Koha database have complete borrower and biblio/item data? |
| 11:37 | tim | Yup. Got that much done. |
| 11:38 | At least it looks like it's done. | |
| 11:38 | I hope | |
| 11:38 | owen | If you were able to use a script to do the processing, you could query the old data, loop over the results, and for each row query your new Koha database for borrower and item number, and insert as you go. |
| 11:38 | ...theoretically. | |
| 11:39 | tim | I just noticed the topic is Koha in non-public libraries. Looks like we're livin' on the edge here with all this rule breaking. |
| 11:41 | Yeah. That's why I've been checking into trying to get things done with mysql. I'm learning both mysql and perl, so using only one makes things easier. | |
| 11:41 | sometimes | |
| 11:50 | I like that one. |
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