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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 00:29 | kivilahtio | Top of the evening #koha. I have started working on the ISO18626 ILL standard implementation to Koha some weeks ago and have been producing some technical documents regarding the Koha tech stack, ISO18626 transaction workflows etc. |
| 00:29 | I published them in the wiki: https://github.com/Hypernova-O[…]a-plugin-iso18626 | |
| 00:29 | Maybe ashimema, Joubu, tcohen[m], dcook, magnuse, are slightly interested? | |
| 00:30 | Also KodoKorkalo[m], nugged. | |
| 00:44 | dcook | kivilahtio: Thanks for the link. Is that all good to go? Also you mention a wiki? |
| 00:45 | kivilahtio | dcook: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/ISO18626_RFC |
| 00:45 | How typical of me to share the wrong link :| | |
| 00:45 | dcook | Hehe all good |
| 00:46 | kivilahtio | dcook: I am just setting up the foundation tech stack to build on. The data models are rather large so takes a bit of thought how to minimize repetitive code. |
| 00:48 | dcook | It certainly looks big. I'll send it over to my director to take a look at since he's been doing iso18626 work too |
| 00:48 | (mostly for projects other than Koha) | |
| 01:28 | tuxayo | kivilahtio++ |
| 01:48 | kivilahtio: That looks impressive, does that need a lot of stuff to be submitted to Koha? How do you manage the differences between Koha-Suomi and upstream Koha in regards to this? | |
| 01:58 | > Does anyone know a ressource for testing EDI/EDIFACT stuff? For example I want to do «Find or create an item invoiced via an EDI INVOICE message» | |
| 01:58 | great, there is this :D t/edi_testfiles/ | |
| 01:59 | Not I need to find out how to use edi_cron.pl | |
| 02:13 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: It is all bundled into a Koha plugin. No upstream changes needed. Just REST API, Vue SPA, DB schema. i18n and all baked in the plugin. One thing which would be easy to upstream is porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript. I have most of the stuff from ERM already working via TypeScript. |
| 02:13 | tuxayo | great :) |
| 02:14 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: To be specific, "I have some of the stuff..." but solved the real technical challenges. |
| 02:17 | tuxayo | > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript |
| 02:17 | kivilahtio For this IIL plugin you had to port ERM JS code to TS? (I'm surely mixing up everything ^^" ) | |
| 02:22 | alohabot joined #koha | |
| 02:28 | dcook | tuxayo: I was curious about that too. I don't understand how the ERM JS relates to this plugin at all... |
| 02:53 | kivilahtio | dcook: tuxayo: the ERM-plugin introduces some good patterns, such as a central notifications bus and DataTable wrappers. store and router, etc utilities. forms and the API accessors. So reusing them, instead of reinventingthe wheel. |
| 02:54 | dcook | kivilahtio: That's something I've been interested in, but I didn't see a way of re-using them? |
| 02:55 | I kept thinking to re-use them they'd need to be in their own repo to be bundled? | |
| 02:55 | I've been thinking it would be great to have a number of core Vue components/features that could be included into Koha plugins... | |
| 02:55 | kivilahtio | dcook: I am speaking more of the patterns. Those patterns are the patterns the Koha devs see when they start wondering about Vue in Koha, so trying to follow those. Apart from the i18n which vue has it's own implementation which is dead easy to use. |
| 02:56 | dcook | I'm not sure I follow. So you mean you're copying/pasting or..? |
| 02:56 | kivilahtio | Also if/when ISO18626 is wanted in the Koha-core, following the patterns makes it easier to ease the plugin to the core. |
| 02:57 | dcook: copy/pasting yes, then porting to TypeScript. Maybe it would be just easier to write new everything, especially since some of the parts are rather obscure with no type definitions, but nothing terribly difficultto figure out, as TypeScript highlights all type issues and invalid invocations so it is easy to find where the refactoring is still lacking. | |
| 02:58 | dcook: It is just so much easier to understand what is happening with the code with good type definitions. | |
| 02:58 | dcook: and especially how everything is supposed to be used. | |
| 03:10 | tuxayo | kivilahtio: |
| 03:10 | > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript | |
| 03:10 | **Maybe** that was deliberate to no add another (even not that big) thing to learn to get onboard on Vue stuff. At the expense of the benefits of TypeScript :( | |
| 03:10 | Recently there was a message warning about the lack of people knowing Vue to changes to Vue pages. | |
| 03:12 | So keeping plain old JS might be necessary. I don't know if that was a choice for foreseeing the current reason. | |
| 03:14 | "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages" | |
| 03:14 | That might be a great contribution opportunity for you kivilahtio ;) Even just reviewing code would help a lot, not full QA. Is that can make it easier to contribute to leave the UI testing for someone else. | |
| 03:19 | kivilahtio | <tuxayo> "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages" - You mean with the the Koha community? |
| 03:19 | tuxayo | yes |
| 03:23 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: Yes, Vue.js is a mouthful, and TypeScript too :) 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible. Now there was only one problem with the default vue project bootstrap scripts :D And I managed to get the production assets bundled how I wanted in an hour or so. |
| 03:23 | But with decent community documentation it is not difficult to set up the project scaffolding and having somebody to maintain it. After that it is very straightforward to focus on the value adding implementation details. | |
| 03:25 | But it is a really nice experience to develop the GUI with all the dev goodies: code hot reload and state persistence in the Vue stores. It is so much more fun than it used to be 10 years ago. | |
| 03:28 | dcook | While that sounds good, I still don't know how a person would handle making real re-usable Vue components in terms of Koha :p |
| 03:29 | Other than the community hosting the Javascript separately | |
| 03:29 | Although I guess I also haven't had a need to find a solution either... | |
| 03:29 | tuxayo | > 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible. |
| 03:29 | Nice that is progressed a lot :D | |
| 03:30 | *it | |
| 03:30 | kivilahtio | dcook: /root/Koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/prog/js/vue/components |
| 03:30 | dcook | That's not how my testing system is set up :p |
| 03:30 | We could do koha-testing-docker's paths though | |
| 03:31 | I used to develop Koha plugins outside of koha-testing-docker, but these days I develop them inside it as well... so maybe that would work | |
| 03:31 | kivilahtio | dcook: Joubu already introduced reusable components. Like the Dialog. |
| 03:31 | dcook | Only within the Koha project though |
| 03:31 | I have been glad for him moving more stuff out of ERM though for sure | |
| 03:31 | kivilahtio | dcook: also the HTTP clients can be repurposed. |
| 03:32 | dcook | I've been meaning to look more at those. I don't think I loved the way the HTTP clients were done.. |
| 03:32 | I figure one of the biggest things is the DataTables | |
| 03:32 | kivilahtio | dcook: They work and are easily extendable. |
| 03:32 | dcook | Being able to re-use that would be amazing |
| 03:33 | My next Koha plugin I might have to look at this all again | |
| 03:33 | Most of my Vue work has been outside of Koha | |
| 03:33 | kivilahtio | dcook: Yes, it has this 1000 rows of legacy datatables.js from the Koha side. Big scary monster with no typing so impossible for compiler to tell if you have all the dependencies with you or not. |
| 03:33 | dcook | datatables.js needs an update as well anyway hehe |
| 03:34 | kivilahtio | dcook: it works :D |
| 03:34 | But it needs a pure Vue replacement to integrate better | |
| 03:34 | dcook | Agreed |
| 03:35 | I actually quite like working with Vue. Once we've got it integrated well into Koha I think it'll make a lot of things much easier | |
| 03:36 | kivilahtio | dcook: yup. Vue is beautiful. If we got websockets working, we could implement all kinds of fun stuff, like a centralized event bus where we could see other librarians logging in to Koha and doing stuff. |
| 03:36 | dcook | I wish... |
| 03:36 | kivilahtio | dcook: while not terribly beneficial, I think the librarians might feel a sense of oneness with the tribe, when theyu see their friends doing stuff in Koha. |
| 03:37 | dcook | It would be interesting to know if another librarian has opened the same record as you.. |
| 03:37 | But I don't know how optimistic I am about architectural changes | |
| 03:37 | kivilahtio | well that could be implemented with the REST API pulling events from Koha every minute or so, but having SPA which reacts in real-time to backend events, such as ILL status changes, would be really nice. |
| 03:37 | dcook | There's only a small handful of us who are interested in newer technologies I think |
| 03:37 | So much inertia.. | |
| 03:38 | bug 31380 | |
| 03:38 | wahanui | hmmm... bug 31380 is what I'm far more interested in but trying to give back a bit more |
| 03:38 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31380 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, dcook, Needs Signoff , Build Mojolicious controller for running Koha plugins |
| 03:39 | dcook | This is still using Mojo::Server::PSGI for compatibility reasons but it offers a way forward with Mojolicious... |
| 03:39 | kivilahtio | dcook: it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience. |
| 03:39 | dcook | ^ |
| 03:39 | And commercial alignments.. | |
| 03:39 | kivilahtio | exactly |
| 03:39 | dcook | On that note, I need to focus on something else ;) |
| 03:39 | But very interested in what you're saying | |
| 03:50 | tuxayo | kivilahtio «it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience.» |
| 03:50 | Yes, for the case of Vue, having people review the patches refining the ERM and making Vue stuff more reusable for the rest of Koha is already hard. | |
| 03:53 | kivilahtio | dcook: interesting improvement you delivered. The plugins also need to deliver for the OPAC. |
| 03:53 | How about one would just use system() [TM] calls to start a separate mojolicious process from the plack.psgi :D | |
| 03:53 | But if you take that route, why not just run Mojolicious in a separate process? | |
| 03:53 | Wouldnt it be a bit easier? | |
| 03:53 | I mean instead of this bug you are proposing, just ditch plack for Mojolicious alltogether and directly route to Mojolicious from Apaceh2 | |
| 03:55 | I don't understand why the legacy CGI and Mojolicious needed to be bundled together. Maybe it is easier to handle it with the koha-plack -helper. | |
| 03:57 | dcook: "At the moment, Koha plugins run via Plack::App::CGIBin, which buffers responses and otherwise prevents plugins from fully leveraging the power of Plack and Mojolicious." | |
| 03:57 | The plugins I write are SPA anyway and use the REST API, so maybe this doesn't help in that case? | |
| 03:58 | dcook: speaking of plugins, I have this one: | |
| 03:58 | https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503 | |
| 03:58 | huginn | 04Bug 33503: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, ASSIGNED , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. |
| 03:59 | kivilahtio | it was a nightmare to debug what was wrong with the OpenAPI2 spec in the plugin. Too me some 3 weeks to solve it and have a patch in bugzilla. |
| 04:11 | tuxayo | kivilahtio++ |
| 04:11 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: It was one of those "routine Koha-version upgrade moments" |
| 04:12 | tuxayo | kivilahtio: you still want to complete the patch, right? Because the ticket status is "ASSIGNED" |
| 04:14 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: well I changed that to Needs Signoff |
| 04:15 | tuxayo | oh great, it was ready! Glad you brought it up, it would have stayed in limbo forever otherwise :o |
| 04:16 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: It shouldnt have any side-effects |
| 04:19 | tuxayo | kivilahtio: Any other patch that might be in the same situation? Anyway, for this one it needs a test plan to demonstrate that it does what is advertises to. Or at least to check for no regressions. Having the test plan understandable by some who doesn't know this area of Koha will help it to get tested. |
| 04:19 | There are 131 need signoff patches ^^" so the clearness of the test plan helps to make them stand out. | |
| 04:19 | Minor QA feedback: commit message have to start with "Bug 33503: " no "Bug 33503 - " | |
| 04:19 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. |
| 04:20 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: ../Koha/REST/Plugin/PluginRoutes.t |
| 04:20 | tuxayo | "same situation" => ready to be switched to need signoff |
| 04:21 | kivilahtio: great, if PluginRoutes.t is enough, then you can just add that in the commit message body. | |
| 04:21 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: okey dokey |
| 04:21 | tuxayo: You are correct, a test plan is something that must be included in the commit message | |
| 04:22 | tuxayo | tests are really great to make signoff a simple trivial formally |
| 05:11 | alohabot joined #koha | |
| 05:30 | ashimema | Morning |
| 05:30 | * dcook | waves to ashimema |
| 05:30 | ashimema | Lovely to see you around again kivilahtio |
| 05:31 | ILL, Pedro Amorim: is your man on that from the ptfs-e side these days. | |
| 05:31 | We're very very keen on iso ill | |
| 05:31 | Just working on far too many fronts all the time . But we were planning on working on it very soon | |
| 05:32 | We need to flip core ILL on its head a bit first though we felt.. having multiple backends installed in parallel works but sucks right now. And most if our libraries have at least three backends if not more | |
| 05:32 | End uswr experience is confusing | |
| 05:33 | Hi dcook | |
| 05:33 | wahanui | Hi dcook are you around? |
| 05:33 | ashimema | I'd love to see websockets and a hypnotoad runner for mojo |
| 05:34 | Really wish I had more time to work on these things... I'm always in a state of do just enough to keep the customers happy right now.. rather than being able to innovate and move those more interesting and future faxing projects forward | |
| 05:34 | It's kinda sad | |
| 05:35 | dcook | I've been thinking a little about that lately actually... |
| 05:35 | Like on one hand I want to innovate locally and prove that things can be done | |
| 05:35 | On the other hand, if I innovate too much, the community won't accept it... | |
| 05:36 | ashimema | It's really hard |
| 05:36 | I don't think it's a lack of interest from the community.. people are keen for innovation to move forward.. we're all just so darn time poor at the moment 😭 | |
| 05:38 | I should probably set myself some more personal time to play with these things. I found myself doing far too much Koha on personal time for a while so I made myself a rule to stop coding and spend more time with the family and friends. (though Koha friends count in my book, so I do lurk here an awful lot.. haha) | |
| 05:38 | dcook | Hehe |
| 05:38 | Yeah I used to do the same | |
| 05:38 | Had to get back to the real world though | |
| 05:39 | Time and inertia... | |
| 05:39 | Koha has also reached a certain size where it's tough to re-architect anything | |
| 05:40 | ashimema | Totally |
| 05:40 | dcook | Although in theory doing more things by API should help.. |
| 05:40 | ashimema | Though I'd love to see more projects in that space |
| 05:41 | I keep hitting bugs where I'm like, yeah we really need this. But he'll I see like 10 steps before we can actually start in the end goal | |
| 05:41 | Commented as such on yet another one yeaterday | |
| 05:41 | dcook | I hear that |
| 05:42 | ashimema | The bugs that makes everything hookable.. I have a real love hate thing going on with that one |
| 05:42 | dcook | Hehehehe |
| 05:42 | I also hear that | |
| 05:42 | I can't see that really working | |
| 05:42 | ashimema | Part of me loves the idea, another part of me is scared, no petrified, by it |
| 05:42 | dcook | ^ |
| 05:42 | Of course, I don't let anyone add plugins anymore ^_^ | |
| 05:43 | ashimema | Our plugins system is way to wild west for my liking |
| 05:43 | dcook | "phenomenal cosmic power itty bitty living space" |
| 05:43 | ashimema | It's another area I'd really like more focus on |
| 05:44 | dcook | It's a logical one too, since it's something we can all use to be more innovative |
| 05:44 | Increasingly I try to do all my devs as plugins | |
| 05:45 | Well local devs | |
| 05:45 | * dcook | dreams of a day of having no local customizations... |
| 05:46 | ashimema | I hear you |
| 05:46 | Though again I have a love hate with plugins in general too | |
| 05:46 | I really like that Koha is all about sharing | |
| 05:47 | dcook | Mmm that's true too |
| 05:47 | ashimema | And I feel plugins opens the door to a lot less sharing |
| 05:47 | Its why I'm keen to have a centralised plugin store so much | |
| 05:48 | I really want much much more discoverability for plugins | |
| 05:48 | dcook | I do think that would be pretty cool |
| 05:48 | Signed by their authors... | |
| 05:49 | ashimema | The search from Koha stuff is nice.. but it's still rather crude and basic.. you kinda have to know what your looking for still.. we don't publish enough metadata to make it really nice and searchable |
| 05:49 | Definitely . | |
| 05:49 | Signing is right up there for me | |
| 05:50 | I'd even like to see dual signatures.. one for the author and one for community so we could have two levels of plugins.. community recommended and vetted and then everything else | |
| 05:50 | dcook | Oh I like that... |
| 05:51 | ashimema | At that point I could see us starting to pull Koha apart a bit and moving a lot of the current core code into much more maintainable modular plugins |
| 05:51 | That's where I'd really really like to see us going | |
| 05:51 | dcook | I was actually thinking about that just a few minutes ago |
| 05:51 | ashimema | Core Koha is just far too big right now |
| 05:51 | dcook | It's so so big |
| 05:51 | ashimema | Pedro Amorim: is super keen on that approach tok |
| 05:51 | Too | |
| 05:52 | dcook | I'm curious how that would work with AuthZ and system preferences... |
| 05:53 | ashimema | He has my support to do that.. but yeah, we have sooooo many customer projects on.. shoe horning this sort of stuff into those paid Devs is a fun management challenge.. well, my challenge really as his manager |
| 05:53 | Haha, yup | |
| 05:53 | That's an area that also needs the overhaul | |
| 05:54 | Our AuthZ system needs to be much more standards based and pluggable | |
| 05:55 | I see plugins being able to define their own scopes and leverage existing scope's . That's where the community signing process would really come in.. checking that plugins lookup and adhere to the scopes they should | |
| 05:55 | Etc | |
| 05:55 | Folio kinda does all this.. though in a hugely over complicated way and much more locked down | |
| 05:56 | Brb, need a shower | |
| 05:56 | dcook | Yeah I feel like I need a shower after talking about those things too.. |
| 05:56 | :p | |
| 05:56 | ashimema | Loo |
| 05:56 | Lol | |
| 06:17 | dcook | On the plus side, customer projects must be good from a business point of view :) |
| 06:32 | Joubu | reading the logs, and my conclusion is: if everybody is saying "lack of interest from the community", we may need to redefine who is "the community" :D |
| 06:35 | dcook | You know... when you say it like that... |
| 06:39 | ashimema | I wouldn't say it's lack of interest at all actually |
| 06:39 | I would say it's lack of time | |
| 06:39 | dcook | Oh yeah we're talking lack of time. If there was lack of interest, that might be further back |
| 06:39 | Joubu | lack of interest, lack of priority, lack of time, lack of focus at the same time, yes all of that |
| 06:39 | ashimema | I feel like all the companies like the idea of innovation, but lack the resources to lt devs 'go with it' at the moment.. they all have so many paying developments in the pipe that they're stuck on those full time. |
| 06:40 | Joubu | but then what do we do? Keep saying it? Or trying to fix those problems? |
| 06:40 | like having a roadmap, spreading the load, helping each others, etc. | |
| 06:40 | dcook | I do like the sound of that ^ |
| 06:41 | Joubu | ask your company to hire ;) |
| 06:41 | (again) | |
| 06:41 | ashimema | Joubu.. I clearly have.. our team has gone from one to 5 |
| 06:41 | dcook | <3 |
| 06:42 | Joubu | yes, I know, and good ones ;) |
| 06:42 | ashimema | and that's awesome, but it's not as trivial as, 'just hire'.. you obviously have to make a case for it (which I managed).. but then it's a really time consuming process finding people and another time consuming process getting them on-boarded and up to speed 😜 |
| 06:42 | We wen't through three rounds before we worked out what we should be looking for and how we should be advertising to get the one's we've got now. | |
| 06:42 | dcook | And with the community system, 1 company could have 50 people and it wouldn't be enough to get changes in, right? |
| 06:43 | ashimema | I know ByWater are in a similar boat.. they've been struggling to find good devs for a while |
| 06:43 | good new devs | |
| 06:43 | totally | |
| 06:43 | but yeah.. I'd love to see more time on the fundamentals | |
| 06:43 | dcook | Definitely hard to find good new devs |
| 06:43 | ashimema | and I've been advocating for a roadmap for literally a decade |
| 06:44 | dcook | Which goes back to maybe what Joubu was saying about redefining "the community" |
| 06:44 | Maybe we should start accepting that there really is a small core group | |
| 06:44 | ashimema | problem is.. roadmaps need to be malleable for what the paying customers are wanting at any given time. |
| 06:44 | dcook | Also true.. |
| 06:44 | ashimema | and when you slot that in with lots of companies and devs in all sorts of different places.. it's really really hard to get people to agree at all levels in the food chain which things to concentrate on when |
| 06:44 | dcook | Although with this csrf stuff.. I think Joubu, me, and one other person could get a lot done |
| 06:45 | Maybe we should change the food chain? | |
| 06:45 | ashimema | who gets to say "We are going to focus on X for Y months" and why did they get to make that decision over anyone else whose arguably just as important |
| 06:45 | Joubu | Sharing my situation: I have time, but lack of motivation. Rebasing the things again and again is really frustrating. I have stopped developping like crazy and refactoring all the legacy code. So now I have only a couple in the queue, and focus on non-direct Koha things (pootle->weblate, screenshots for the manual, etc.). And wait for the stuffs to be pushed (or simply get feedback) to start new things. |
| 06:45 | dcook | Although I suppose Koha has been burnt before by centralizing power.. |
| 06:45 | ashimema | yeah |
| 06:45 | I get you Joubu | |
| 06:46 | I'm keen for a few things.. I'd like more than one hackfest a year and I'd like to get those hackfests much more tightly focused on a deliverable or two | |
| 06:46 | dcook | ^ |
| 06:46 | ashimema | I always find them really good, but really hard.. I never come out the other end with a final goal met |
| 06:46 | and that's hard when you have people above your head pushing for their agenda's.. | |
| 06:47 | which I also get.. | |
| 06:47 | but still.. it's a pain | |
| 06:47 | I'm going to advocate that for the next hackfest my team attend | |
| 06:48 | 3 targets maximum as a team and a push for focus beyond that team on those three targets.. get people onboard with a goal long before we arrive | |
| 06:48 | I think if we can prove a concerted effort can yield results in that situation we stand more of a change of getting medium and long term community wide roadmaps in place | |
| 06:48 | but before we've proved an output to the purse string holders, it aint going to happen.. | |
| 06:48 | my two cents | |
| 06:49 | and breath.... | |
| 06:49 | dcook | hehe |
| 06:50 | Joubu: I was just thinking.. maybe part of it is communication. Sometimes I wait on things and I think maybe no one has even noticed them | |
| 06:50 | ashimema | that's definitely a thing |
| 06:50 | keep bugging me, I WILL get to them | |
| 06:50 | dcook | Yeah, I've said that before too. Definitely keep bugging me. |
| 06:50 | ashimema | but there are LOTS of bugs.. picking which to look at is often hard |
| 06:51 | Joubu | I have tried the communication, some years ago I was sending email to the list, to let people know what we (active core members) were doing and when we needed help |
| 06:51 | we didn't get help | |
| 06:51 | dcook | That does sound familiar... |
| 06:51 | Joubu | less big things, less time to integrate them, focus at the same time |
| 06:51 | that's the only things we need | |
| 06:51 | we don't even need more people | |
| 06:51 | dcook | focus at the same time is a key one I think for sure |
| 06:51 | Joubu | "what's on in koha-devel" it was called |
| 06:52 | dcook | Because in theory if you have 3 people united... you're almost unstoppable hehe |
| 06:52 | author, test, QA | |
| 06:55 | ashimema | I find emails hard.. I am always behind on reading them and always have a backlog or long ones. |
| 06:55 | short snappy catching me on slack/irc is best to get my attention.. | |
| 06:56 | that way I'll stick it in a note and action it within a few hours or days usually. | |
| 06:56 | if it's in an email.. by the time I read it, often the need has already gone.. or the interest has wained | |
| 06:56 | Joubu | or.. team tools everybody use at work, like kanban, etc. but we "tried" that as well |
| 06:56 | email or irc are not working | |
| 06:58 | but talking about "what's on in koha-devel", it was either blog posts or email. I don't have a blog so email was appropriate. | |
| 06:59 | dcook | I was actually just thinking Zoom |
| 06:59 | Tough with timezones of course | |
| 06:59 | At Prosentient, we all work in the office, but I've been wondering how you'd manage a remote workforce.. and surely you'd need to have regular synchronous catchups... | |
| 06:59 | Joubu | the problem is not the tool :D |
| 06:59 | dcook | Agreed |
| 06:59 | I think it's being in sync | |
| 07:00 | Frequent contact, knowing what we're working on/caring about | |
| 07:00 | Of course, it's tough. I don't just work on Koha :/ | |
| 07:01 | cait joined #koha | |
| 07:03 | ashimema | we have a zoom call every morning, whole company still at the moment, though that's starting to be a challenge |
| 07:03 | we discuss the weather and stuff for a few mins to start.. just to keep it light and make sure everyones awake and has that social interaction.. then we do a round table of what people are doing work wise, any challenges etc.. | |
| 07:04 | dcook | During lockdowns, that's we did as well |
| 07:04 | ashimema | it's a big use of time.. like 1 hour a day.. but we've not managed to wean ourselves off it |
| 07:04 | we basically started this way and have carried on ever since as it's always worked.. | |
| 07:04 | but yeah.. growth is making it harder | |
| 07:04 | dcook | I suppose over time you'll have to subdivide |
| 07:04 | ashimema | we now also have team breakouts more which I find helpful |
| 07:05 | dcook | ^ |
| 07:05 | ashimema | and each day the morning meeting it followed by a topic meeting where we discuss Upgrades, Developments, Infrastructure, Support or Sales |
| 07:05 | oh.. and Projects | |
| 07:05 | one per day on a bit of a rotation for some | |
| 07:06 | dcook | Now I'm feeling better about our meetings heh |
| 07:06 | ashimema | the challenge is the level we communicate at in community.. the purse string holders often don't get involved |
| 07:06 | and at the end of the day, they're the one's with real power to give direction | |
| 07:06 | I push hard for my team to have a certain amount of freedom with what they work on.. | |
| 07:07 | but it's always hard.. and when dollar signs light up in peoples eyes it's very difficult to say. "But we were doing this thing and want to finish that first" | |
| 07:08 | dcook | It is hard :/ |
| 07:08 | Joubu | you need to present it correctly: "we have to finish that first, or Koha will collapse in the next 2 weeks" |
| 07:08 | ashimema | haha.. |
| 07:08 | I do | |
| 07:08 | and it works to some extent | |
| 07:08 | but your preaching to the converted here.. | |
| 07:09 | dcook | haha |
| 07:09 | ashimema | we need InLibro to get onboard |
| 07:09 | we need biblibre to get on board | |
| 07:09 | ByWater too to some extent | |
| 07:09 | dcook | I was wondering a bit about BibLibre's numbers |
| 07:09 | According to the dashboard, I've got more contributions this month, and I'm a one man show... | |
| 07:09 | Mind you my contributions are little compared to their past ones.. | |
| 07:10 | ashimema | in my view.. biblibre are awesome for hackfest.. though often their devs keep themselves to themselves on work at hackfest.. |
| 07:10 | but the rest of the year I don't really hear or see much from them | |
| 07:10 | Frido does a bit more again of course now.. but his timezone is challenging | |
| 07:10 | Joubu | And all the "I am a company with a lot of KOHA knowledge and I want to be on the support provider list" companies... |
| 07:10 | dcook | ^ |
| 07:10 | ashimema | they're still good guys.. but busy.. as we all are.. and don't really focus on Koha a lot |
| 07:10 | dcook | Joubu: I think that's one of my pet peaves |
| 07:10 | pet peeves* | |
| 07:10 | ashimema | ha, definitely Joubu |
| 07:12 | dcook | Maybe I should make more days for just marking everything Failed QA |
| 07:12 | No bugs - no problems | |
| 07:13 | Actually, I am trying to figure out some way of carving up my time better. It's hard because I'm dev and support.. | |
| 07:13 | Anyone can come along at any time... | |
| 07:14 | ashimema | yup |
| 07:14 | we're all dev and support here | |
| 07:14 | our teams are loosely focused, but the expectation is you lend a hand whenever you can | |
| 07:14 | cait | don't ask about all my hats :) |
| 07:14 | dcook | hehe |
| 07:15 | ashimema | I will admit, I've been terrible for the roadmap this cycle.. I've barely even looked at it.. |
| 07:15 | dcook | People ask me what I do for work sometimes and I find it so hard to explain |
| 07:15 | cait | I think it's ok that not every company has a dev team - some might just run Koha and do that well and I'd be ok with that |
| 07:15 | but overall we need more resources focused on helping others work along | |
| 07:15 | to resolve our bottleneckes | |
| 07:15 | just contributing patches is not going to help us clear queues | |
| 07:15 | ashimema | two reasons.. one I've been focused on getting the team up to speed and super busy and two I was feeling burned out roadmap wise.. I tried for like 5 cycles to move roadmap projects on and failed and it killed my motivation to work that way |
| 07:16 | cait | I didn't mean you or anyone specific |
| 07:16 | ashimema | just submitting bug reports isn't helpful either |
| 07:16 | cait | just that we are out of balance and it shows in the queues |
| 07:16 | ashimema | I often see a bug report.. fix it and never hear from the reporter again |
| 07:16 | no feedback, no signoff, nothing | |
| 07:16 | it's infuriating | |
| 07:17 | especially as that's almost always on my personal time | |
| 07:17 | dcook | <3 |
| 07:17 | cait | I think I have been guilty of that too |
| 07:17 | but there is just SO MANY things that it#s hard to keep on top | |
| 07:17 | impossible really | |
| 07:17 | * magnuse | is guilty too |
| 07:17 | ashimema | that wasn't directed at you either cait |
| 07:17 | cait | I was really annyoed at myself for knowing about a database bug that badly bit us for ... like years |
| 07:17 | but I never got around to fix it | |
| 07:17 | and then we lost data | |
| 07:17 | ashimema | you do a lot already.. it's the drive by one's that get my goat |
| 07:17 | the expectation you'll fix things and they never bother to come back on anything | |
| 07:17 | Joubu | any companies making money with Koha can find 1 hour a month to sign off a bug using the sandbox, no excuses |
| 07:18 | if they all do that, NSO queue is < 10 | |
| 07:18 | magnuse | but if you find a bug, isn't it better to report it than not to report it? |
| 07:18 | cait | lately, the NSO is not the one that worries me |
| 07:18 | ashimema | or.. to be listed as a support company you should have to pay into a pot to pay for some community QA or Devs |
| 07:18 | cait | we are getting close to deadlines already and QA queue is way too ful |
| 07:18 | ashimema | or prove you're contributing in some other way |
| 07:18 | but I always get push back on that idea | |
| 07:18 | and I can see why | |
| 07:18 | but still | |
| 07:18 | cait | it makes people unhappy if their stuff doesn't even get looked at after sitting there long (it makes me unhappy too) |
| 07:18 | not good for anyone's motivation | |
| 07:19 | dcook | Now that I've helped stir the pot, I'm going to go on my little holiday o/ |
| 07:19 | magnuse | dcook++ |
| 07:19 | ashimema | enjoy dcook |
| 07:19 | dcook | haha |
| 07:19 | ashimema | dcook++ |
| 07:19 | dcook | Back more seriously on Oct 9 or so... |
| 07:19 | ciao ciao | |
| 07:20 | Joubu | dcook: Enjoy! |
| 07:20 | ashimema | I encourage my team to try and stay in the top 10 on the SO leaders board... if not top 5.. |
| 07:21 | I think next cycle I'd like to tentatively encourage them into the QA team and again set such a target using the leaderboard. | |
| 07:21 | there's plenty of easy QA's out there they could start with | |
| 07:21 | sorry cait 😜 | |
| 07:21 | talking team.. do we have any thoughts on who might be RM next cycle? | |
| 07:22 | school run time.. brb | |
| 07:24 | cait | heh not me? :) |
| 07:24 | that's how it works right? the last to say it has to be it :) | |
| 07:28 | Joubu | not me |
| 07:29 | ashimema | Wha.. |
| 07:29 | Lol | |
| 07:30 | Joubu | we are good, it will be dcook, he just left |
| 07:30 | ashimema | There's no obvious candidates to me |
| 07:30 | Hehe | |
| 07:33 | * magnuse | has been thinking there could be a hackfest focused on plugins, both focusing on the internals for the core devs and "how to write a plugin" for everyone else |
| 07:33 | Joubu | RM job is 50% of the work time, or it is not done properly (full review, consistent pushes, building and guiding the team with a roadmap, etc.) |
| 07:38 | ashimema | I'd argue even more than 50% a lot of the time |
| 07:38 | That's the challenge. | |
| 07:38 | As much as I can see good people.. they need company support | |
| 07:38 | That's a good focus magnuse | |
| 07:38 | Would make for a good hackfest | |
| 07:39 | * magnuse | thinks so too |
| 07:40 | * ashimema | has a list of topics he 5hinks would really benefit from a week hack approach |
| 07:42 | ashimema | The advent series was good in that regard |
| 07:42 | Time again, I'd love to see more Dev docs like that one | |
| 07:45 | magnuse | +1 |
| 07:48 | ashimema | It was good to be focused.. we'd need to start writing the post asap I reckon. |
| 07:48 | Any thoughts on a good topic? | |
| 07:51 | magnuse | for advent calendar articles? |
| 07:51 | not off the top of my head, but i can try and think about it | |
| 07:53 | ashimema | I'd love to bring it back |
| 07:53 | I look forward to the perl ones every year | |
| 07:54 | They vary a bit, but generally I like them | |
| 07:54 | I love their themed style too.. the elf themed north pole fun makes me giggle every single time.. haha | |
| 07:57 | magnuse | :-) |
| 07:59 | aude_c[m] | Was it an advent calendar with a dev audience in mind? |
| 08:01 | Joubu | https://koha-community.gitlab.io/KohaAdvent/ - yes, dev oriented |
| 08:04 | magnuse | a calendar for librarians is perhaps not a bad idea either? |
| 08:05 | aude_c[m] | That was kind of my question: who's your audience? What do you want them to get out of it? :D |
| 08:07 | One could argue there are plenty of resources for librarians already... | |
| 08:09 | magnuse | true |
| 08:09 | an easy option could be to just gather 24 links to really good things that are already out there, perhaps | |
| 08:10 | ashimema | Yeah.. I liked the idea of a librarian focused one too |
| 08:10 | though I felt librarians were already better catered for with all the various vlogs and things we already have out there | |
| 08:10 | devs were missing that | |
| 08:11 | but I'm not against it.. just didn't have the time/contacts to orchestrate both 😜 | |
| 08:12 | * ashimema | should have read that hole convo before replying |
| 08:12 | aude_c[m] | I agree with Magnus - it would be easy to do and could highlight some lesser-known resources. |
| 08:12 | ashimema | Yeah, that's certainly a great idea |
| 08:12 | aude_c[m] | Depends what we / you want to achieve :) |
| 08:13 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | Reading back on the plugins talk from earlier, my next target on the dev documentation side is to attack the plugins pages on the Wiki and try and bring them up to date |
| 08:13 | ashimema | may also be a good oportunity to highlight a lot of the work that goes on behind the scenes that people are unaware of |
| 08:14 | like all the volunteer time that goes into keeping Jenkins running, building packages, running the translation servers, etc, etc | |
| 08:14 | none of that is really recognised | |
| 08:14 | magnuse | +1 |
| 08:14 | aude_c[m] | +1 |
| 08:25 | ashimema | Joubu still about? |
| 08:25 | matt.blenkinsop may need a pointer on selenium cleanup issues in Jenkins | |
| 08:25 | Joubu | ashimema: yes |
| 08:26 | magnuse | gah, we have a koha 22.05.12 using elastic 7 for search. search works in both opac and staff, but some records are only searchable in staff, not in the opac. it is not bug 30141 or OpacHiddenItems. anyone else seen that? |
| 08:26 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30141 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , ElasticsearchCrossFields enabled returns no search results on OPAC |
| 08:27 | Joubu | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: t/db_dependent/selenium/patrons_search.t failure on 22.11_D11? |
| 08:27 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | Yes thats the one |
| 08:27 | Joubu | if so, I fixed it yesterday |
| 08:27 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | Ah perfect, which bug? |
| 08:27 | Joubu | (trying to remember the bug number) |
| 08:27 | ashimema | awesome people |
| 08:27 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | I'll email Fridolin and backport it |
| 08:27 | ashimema | as painful as Koha can be sometimes.. we do have a lovely community really.. thanks for caring Joubu |
| 08:28 | Joubu | 27634 - but it was not the same failure actually! |
| 08:28 | but I looked at patrons_search.t as well IIRC | |
| 08:29 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | The error is a cleanup issue rather than one of the tests failing |
| 08:30 | Joubu | the failure on jenkins is "Cannot wait more for jQuery to be active", it's not the cleanup |
| 08:31 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: do you get the failure locally? I've tried yesterday on 23.05 and it was passing for me | |
| 08:31 | ashimema | arg |
| 08:31 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | I'm rebooting KTD with selenium to test |
| 08:34 | Joubu | the failure is consistent on jenkins. And both 22.11 and 23.05 are failing since Sept 8th. |
| 08:36 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | 22.11 had an issue with ERM which I fixed yesterday |
| 08:37 | Joubu | I meant, patrons_search.t is failing since https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_22.11_D11/249/ |
| 08:37 | #248 was green | |
| 08:37 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | Ah right ok, I'll see if I can replicate locally |
| 08:38 | Joubu | I am running the whole test suite, replicating jenkins |
| 08:39 | will see how it goes | |
| 08:40 | note that it's logged there already: bug 31199. But it's failing randomly on master, it seems consistent on 22.11 | |
| 08:40 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31199 normal, P5 - low, ---, chris, NEW , selenium/patrons_search.t is failing randomly |
| 08:54 | cait | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: I'd appreciate any dev documentation updates for the wiki! API or plugins would be both great |
| 08:54 | Joubu | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: that's actually a random failure, on run #251 patrons_search.t is passing |
| 08:55 | krimsonkharne[m] | morning #koha |
| 08:55 | Joubu | 252, 253, 255, 256 as well |
| 08:55 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | It passed for me locally just now |
| 08:56 | Joubu | there is something going on when the server is slow to responde, which is hard to replicate locally |
| 08:56 | magnuse | never mind my earlier problem, the records had 942$n = 1 |
| 08:56 | Joubu | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: so basically, the short answer is: it's not blocker for a release. Schedule another build and with a bit of luck it will be green |
| 08:56 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | 256 was the cypress failure, I'll re-trigger a Jenkins run and see if it passes this time |
| 08:56 | Joubu | heh ;) |
| 08:57 | MatthewBlenkinsop[m] | Ok sounds good, thanks for looking at it! |
| 08:57 | krimsonkharne[m] | hey, noob question, but can I find documentation for the qa script somewhere? |
| 08:57 | Joubu | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: you can still log the failure on 31199, provide the job, run #, and node |
| 08:58 | krimsonkharne[m]: what kind of documentation do you want? The project is at https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools | |
| 08:58 | ashimema | https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools |
| 08:58 | the readme is pretty much it | |
| 08:58 | lol | |
| 08:58 | krimsonkharne[m] | alright, thanks both |
| 08:58 | joubu++ ashimema++ | |
| 08:59 | Joubu | krimsonkharne[m]: are you looking for something specific? |
| 08:59 | krimsonkharne[m] | Joubu: yeah |
| 08:59 | I have zero experience with writing my own perl scripts and wanted to try it out | |
| 08:59 | ashimema | he magic is, you don't need any of the setup if you're using ktd.. it's all there for you already |
| 08:59 | so you literally just call qa and that does all the magic for you | |
| 08:59 | krimsonkharne[m] | for bug 29324 |
| 08:59 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=29324 minor, P5 - low, ---, philip.orr, Failed QA , Some files still don't have the correct license statement |
| 08:59 | * ashimema | should add --more-tests to the readme though |
| 08:59 | ashimema | that's not documented there.. but is in the --help |
| 09:00 | krimsonkharne[m] | the idea I had was to write a perl file to prepend copyright or license statements to all files missing them |
| 09:00 | would work fine but qa gives me a couple of fails, and as a noob non-dev I don't understand them... | |
| 09:00 | Joubu | don't take koha-qa.pl as an example of good practices |
| 09:01 | ok, forget what I just said then. | |
| 09:01 | What is the failure? | |
| 09:01 | wahanui | well, the failure is due to the Docker_3 executor |
| 09:01 | krimsonkharne[m] | file permissions: File must have the exec flag |
| 09:02 | ashimema | chmod +x on the files it mentions is the resolution for that one |
| 09:02 | and commit it of course | |
| 09:02 | file permissions | |
| 09:03 | Joubu.. do you know what -d was ever for in the qa script? | |
| 09:03 | it doesn't appear to do anything now | |
| 09:05 | Joubu | "added -d arg for smart-comments" |
| 09:05 | Date: Fri Aug 24 09:52:29 2012 +1200 | |
| 09:05 | since then we removed smart comments | |
| 09:06 | so -d is useless and should be removed | |
| 09:06 | ashimema | okies |
| 09:09 | krimsonkharne[m] | yep that fixed it ashimema! |
| 09:09 | ashimema++ | |
| 09:12 | ashimema | that's just basic linux file permissions stuff.. but if you don't know you don't know.. glad I could help |
| 09:12 | I just did a tiny update to the README to get it inline with current functionality 🙂 | |
| 09:14 | cait | ashimema++ |
| 09:16 | ashimema | are you happy with your fix for issue_75 Joubu |
| 09:16 | it looks solid to me.. and works in a quick test.. | |
| 09:16 | can I merge it:? | |
| 09:16 | qa script that is | |
| 09:19 | Joubu | MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: my laptop is overwhelmed at the moment, loadavg is 25, and the test is failing :D |
| 09:24 | ashimema: not really happy, but it's the best solution I found | |
| 09:24 | ashimema | yeah.. I can't think of anything better off the top of my head |
| 09:24 | I reckon lets go with this and refine if we get inspired down the line | |
| 09:24 | "it's only tooling" | |
| 09:24 | I'd rather see it move than languish 😜 | |
| 09:26 | I was just considering a look at https://gitlab.com/koha-commun[…]tools/-/issues/63 | |
| 09:27 | contemplating whether we need a QohA::File::Specific::DBRev class for a new class of tests against our db_rev files | |
| 09:27 | we already have a couple of special catches for them embedded inside File::Perl | |
| 09:28 | for the INSERT IGNORE INTO test | |
| 10:04 | demetriv22[m] joined #koha | |
| 10:05 | Joubu | ashimema: yes, we definitelly need a new class! |
| 10:05 | ashimema | coolios |
| 10:06 | the minor thing holding me back was thinking we probably want both to run.. our standard Perl checks + the atomic update specific ones | |
| 10:06 | I wasn't sure how to do that.. add the QohA::File::* twice.. once for Perl and once for Special::DBRev | |
| 10:06 | or what | |
| 10:06 | any preference? | |
| 10:06 | do we even need to run the standard Perl tests on it | |
| 10:07 | demetriv22[m] | I'm seeking some advice on the implementation of the Koha library system. In particular, how does the system interact with local servers or Microsoft 365? Is there process documentation that can be share,please? |
| 10:07 | ashimema | interact in what way demetriv22 |
| 10:07 | Koha's is self contained and web based | |
| 10:07 | but you can use API's to talk to it.. and you can use various Auth mechanisms and things | |
| 10:08 | like LDAP, Shibboleth, SAML2, CAS et al | |
| 10:08 | demetriv22[m] | Hi, so can Koha be used in conjuction with M365 powerapps? |
| 10:08 | ashimema | Azure and MS etc all happily link in those ways |
| 10:08 | I have no idea what a M365 powerapp is or what you want to do with it | |
| 10:09 | Joubu | ashimema: I think it will fail if you run the usual perl tests (at least critic) on the dbrevs, but something to confirmed! |
| 10:09 | you are not supposed to add a file twice, at least we don't do that so far | |
| 10:10 | I would make DBRev inherit from File::Perl if you want to run tests from both classes | |
| 10:11 | ashimema | ah, good call! |
| 10:11 | why didn't I think of inheritance.. sometimes the brain is slow | |
| 10:11 | demetriv22[m] | So, I want to use this system as a means of sharing insights across my business. These insights are reports, PDFs, books, and journal papers. There are several groups that will need insights. |
| 10:12 | ashimema | to me, that sounds like Koha is hugely overkill.. it's a fully fledged library management system. |
| 10:13 | it's not a 'plug and play app' for the M365 ecosystem. | |
| 10:13 | but I could be wildly misunderstanding your use case | |
| 10:18 | demetriv22[m] | I thought that it might be too. However, I can't find something that's between the basic file sharing system and a more advanced platform. The issue we have is that there are lots of reports, hosted in different places, which last year took months to consolidate. As our area of work expands so does the number of reports. I want a central repository where uses can add and search for reports that may be of interest. I'd welcome your thoughts |
| 10:18 | here, thanks. | |
| 10:19 | oleonard joined #koha | |
| 10:20 | ashimema | I kinda feel like an object repository might suit you better.. something like dspace.. though again I have no idea how that integrates with existing MS offerings |
| 10:20 | sorry I can't really be of much more help | |
| 10:31 | khall joined #koha | |
| 10:48 | demetriv22[m] | Ok thanks. I'll look into it. |
| 11:30 | oleonard | ashimema: Potential complication to the DataTables upgrade... I'm finding that the new and old options names are not playing nice together. I've posted to the DataTables forum to get more information. |
| 11:31 | I'd like to avoid having to update dozens of templates :( | |
| 11:33 | Joubu | we could script the renaming, I am sure it will be easy to find a link between old and new and it should not catch a lot of incorrect matches. |
| 11:34 | I mean, a list of the old<->new options' names | |
| 11:34 | oleonard | Joubu: I'm more concerned about the difficulty in moving such a big patch through testing |
| 11:35 | ashimema | I'd love to see us make that move.. dropping all the old Hungarian style or whatever it was called |
| 11:35 | but.. perhaps not as part of this particular patch | |
| 11:37 | oleonard | The options are supposed to be backwards compatible, but I'm finding that with 1.13.x if you define a default in camelCase it overrides the Hungarian-style option on the page |
| 11:41 | cait | I'd be happy to help testing |
| 11:41 | i think for a GUI change like this we could also recruit other people | |
| 11:42 | oleonard | I've been submitting so many patches lately with huge test plans... I'm going to wear out my welcome :D |
| 11:45 | cait | nah |
| 11:45 | I don't see any danger there | |
| 11:47 | * cait | misses kidclamp |
| 11:51 | magnuse | oleonard++ |
| 11:59 | ashimema | meeting? |
| 11:59 | wahanui | meeting is over :) |
| 11:59 | ashimema | ho.. I made a :tea: about an hour ago and forgot to drink it.. lol |
| 12:02 | caroline | the meeting is now right? |
| 12:02 | thd joined #koha | |
| 12:07 | ashimema | I thought so |
| 12:08 | thd | I am waiting for moderator in jitsi |
| 12:08 | caroline | same |
| 12:08 | thd | tcohen are you present for the meeting? |
| 12:08 | magnuse | https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]27_September_2023 |
| 12:09 | * ashimema | pokes tcohen in slack |
| 12:09 | aude_c[m] | Can't anyone be the moderator? |
| 12:09 | That was my impression from your meeting agenda (https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]7_September_2023) and I was interested because I have never used that function, haha | |
| 12:10 | thd | We had scheduled a meeting time two hours earlier on this occasion to avoid a conflict with the previously scheduled documentation meeting. |
| 12:14 | ashimema | no response from him yet |
| 12:17 | marie-luce joined #koha | |
| 12:17 | thd | Maybe still a little early to find tcohen ordinarily. |
| 12:17 | ashimema | I'm going to carry on with my support calls |
| 12:18 | it's 9.15 in corboda | |
| 12:18 | but I have a feeling he's just completely forgotten | |
| 12:18 | caroline | ok well, ping me if you need an update on Kohacon. So far nothing much has changed from the last time. Still trying to get in touch with perl people, mainly through nugged, but not much response |
| 12:18 | ashimema | it's earlier for most of bywater |
| 12:18 | caroline | I got to the office earlier too |
| 12:19 | It's not super early (8am) but I usually get in at 9 | |
| 12:20 | thd | Definitely early for much of the US. |
| 12:20 | ashimema | oh no, sorry caroline |
| 12:26 | caroline | no need to be sorry! |
| 12:27 | (you can be sure I'll leave early lol) | |
| 12:36 | khall joined #koha | |
| 12:39 | tcohen[m] | hola #koha o/ |
| 12:39 | I had the wrong time for the meeting | |
| 12:39 | sorry for that | |
| 12:40 | #startmeeting Development Meeting 27 September 2023 | |
| 12:40 | huginn | Meeting started Wed Sep 27 12:40:27 2023 UTC. The chair is tcohen[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 12:40 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | |
| 12:40 | The meeting name has been set to 'development_meeting_27_september_2023' | |
| 12:40 | tcohen[m] | #topic Introductions |
| 12:41 | #info Tomas Cohen Arazi | |
| 12:43 | caroline | Sorry, I have another meeting at 9 |
| 12:43 | (in 20 minutes) | |
| 12:45 | tcohen[m] | #info No quorum for the dev meeting this time. Re-scheduling |
| 12:45 | #endmeeting | |
| 12:45 | huginn | Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 12:45:13 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) |
| 12:45 | Minutes: https://meetings.koha-communit[…]-09-27-12.40.html | |
| 12:45 | Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-communit[…]3-09-27-12.40.txt | |
| 12:45 | Log: https://meetings.koha-communit[…]27-12.40.log.html | |
| 12:54 | marie-luce joined #koha | |
| 13:19 | Joubu | aude_c[m]: https://docs.weblate.org/en/we[…]i.html#categories - (yet another) example of "New in version x" |
| 13:20 | There is also, on the same page "Deprecated since version 2.6" | |
| 13:27 | ashimema | caroline |
| 13:27 | wahanui | caroline is always referring to this page, actually to this one https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]-_Tips_and_Tricks for the heading marks |
| 13:27 | aude_c[m] | Thanks! |
| 13:28 | caroline | lol, I am always refering to that page actually |
| 13:28 | what's up? | |
| 13:28 | aude_c[m] | 😁 |
| 13:28 | ashimema | do you understand what the heck the the onshelf holds preferences are meantt to do |
| 13:29 | caroline | ugh, holds, the bane of my existence... which pref? or do you mean the rules? |
| 13:29 | aude_c[m] | Joubu That's a really neat example 👍️ |
| 13:30 | ashimema | must be a rule.. I can't find a pref |
| 13:30 | caroline | oh, do you mean the if any available vs if none available? |
| 13:30 | aude_c[m] | I really don't like the way the onshelf options in the circ rules are named (so confusing) |
| 13:30 | ashimema | the options are confusing |
| 13:30 | caroline | me either |
| 13:30 | aude_c[m] | lol |
| 13:31 | ashimema | 'Yes', 'If any unavailable' and 'If all unavailable' |
| 13:31 | what the heck do those mean? | |
| 13:31 | caroline | Ok, so yes is pretty self explanatory |
| 13:31 | ashimema | Pedro Amorim: is doing his head in trying to understand |
| 13:32 | I'm baffled as to why there's no 'No' options | |
| 13:32 | it's yes, yes or yes | |
| 13:32 | caroline | if any unavailable is if at least one item is unavailable, you can place on shelf holds (I think) |
| 13:32 | aude_c[m] | But it's different types of yes! |
| 13:32 | Yes: This will allow to place holds on items at all times. It doesn’t matter if they are available or checked out. | |
| 13:32 | If any unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as one or more items of the record are checked out. It doesn’t matter if there are still one or more items available on the shelf. | |
| 13:32 | If all unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as all items on the record are checked out that could fill the hold. This is especially useful for libraries that don’t offer the service of getting items placed on hold off the shelf for patrons. | |
| 13:32 | caroline | If all unavailable is basically no |
| 13:33 | ashimema | why not call it No then! |
| 13:33 | lol | |
| 13:33 | caroline | don't ask me! lol |
| 13:33 | ashimema | well.. we're basically finding is doesn't work |
| 13:33 | PedroAmorim[m] | it was originally tho |
| 13:33 | https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]&attachment=50824 | |
| 13:33 | check smart-rules.tt | |
| 13:34 | caroline | The only time I use if any unavailable is for libraries who don't allow onsehlf holds, but have like serials on the same record, so they want patrons to ba able to place holds on checked out issues |
| 13:34 | PedroAmorim[m] | it then became no, if one unavailable, if all unavailable |
| 13:34 | and after that became what we have now | |
| 13:34 | caroline | so it's 'Yes', 'No, but maybe', and 'No' :) |
| 13:35 | ashimema | this is all in regard to bug 34886 btw |
| 13:35 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34886 normal, P5 - low, ---, pedro.amorim, Signed Off , Regression in when hold button appears |
| 13:35 | ashimema | we have multiple customers unhappy about it.. but can't for the life of us work out what is meant to be happening |
| 13:36 | I basically want to revert bug 30846 at this point | |
| 13:36 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30846 normal, P5 - low, ---, hammat.wele, Pushed to oldstable , "If any unavailable" doesn't consider negative notforloan values as unavailable |
| 13:36 | Joubu | PedroAmorim[m]: aren't you reverting 30846 with your second patch? |
| 13:36 | PedroAmorim[m] | no |
| 13:37 | and, second patch from what bug? =D | |
| 13:37 | Joubu | talking in the current context |
| 13:37 | PedroAmorim[m] | 34886 |
| 13:37 | Joubu | 34886 |
| 13:37 | PedroAmorim[m] | I'm rolling back Martin's first proposal |
| 13:37 | in my 2nd patch | |
| 13:37 | not 30846 | |
| 13:37 | Joubu | ok, ignore me then |
| 13:37 | staying away of this discussion :D | |
| 13:37 | PedroAmorim[m] | ignore you? that's easy! |
| 13:38 | no, please stay (really, we could use you here) | |
| 13:38 | Joubu | I don't want to! :) |
| 13:38 | holds!! | |
| 13:38 | ashimema | LOL |
| 13:39 | caroline | I feel like those two bugs should fix something totally different, no? |
| 13:39 | Joubu | and you are correct, I misread 30846 |
| 13:39 | caroline | One is based on the status, one is based on the patron being logged in or not? |
| 13:39 | ashimema | 30846 caused the other |
| 13:39 | it looks like a tiny change, but in fact it's huge | |
| 13:40 | Dyrcona joined #koha | |
| 13:40 | caroline | how come the status one affects the patron? |
| 13:40 | ashimema | one line, but that one line completely changes what functions it's using.. so it's more like a few hundred line change |
| 13:40 | we never looked at patron before | |
| 13:40 | the switch changes us from looking at status only to requiring patron so we can look at patron too | |
| 13:41 | caroline | I don't understand, is it because there is a circulation rule and the circ rule has a patron category? |
| 13:42 | but even then, the negative not for loan should be considered unavailable but holdable no matter what the circ rule says | |
| 13:42 | ashimema | correct |
| 13:42 | that's what should have been getting checked.. | |
| 13:43 | I don't think we should ever have switched to using a method that checks a lot more than that | |
| 13:44 | caroline | for that case |
| 13:44 | but for other cases, you might need to check the patron, no? | |
| 13:45 | like if teachers can place onshelf holds, but not students | |
| 13:45 | ashimema | totally |
| 13:45 | but you can't check that until after login | |
| 13:46 | caroline | yes |
| 13:46 | ashimema | our customers are angry that the hold button has disappeared in 90% of cases for them because their students aren't logged in yet.. |
| 13:46 | the possiblity for a hold needs to be obvious up front. | |
| 13:47 | caroline | I understand |
| 13:47 | PedroAmorim[m] | Before 30846, the function being called from the opac page was Koha::CirculationRules->get_onshelfholds_policy which does not require a $patron to be defined in order to work. It checks $patron itself and has it's own fallback. |
| 13:47 | After 30846, the function now being called is IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest which is a function that requires $patron to be defined if On shelf holds allowed = "If all unavailable". | |
| 13:47 | I think IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest has never even been used by a OPAC page before, thus it always had a $patron defined since you need to be authenticated in the staff UI but don't quote me on that | |
| 13:49 | caroline | we have had complaints in the other direction: patrons see the button, click on it, log in, and then are told they can't reserve, complain to the library, library complains to us :) |
| 13:51 | ashimema | lol |
| 13:52 | aude_c[m] | Just some advance warning that we're having a Documentation meeting starting on the hour. We'll be using Jitsi Meet for discussions but also attempting to use (!) this channel to record minutes. |
| 13:52 | Joubu | The first "place hold" button when the patron is not logged in could be renamed like "check holdability", to remove the ambiguity |
| 13:52 | tcohen[m] | I gree :-D |
| 13:53 | caroline | interesting solution |
| 13:53 | aude_c[m] | I can foresee a lot of users finding this annoying 😅 |
| 13:54 | ashimema | lol |
| 13:54 | caroline | I think users will be annoyed either way, as we've seen, you get complaints for one behaviour and we get complaints for the exact reverse behaviour |
| 13:57 | gotta move for the meeting bbl | |
| 13:58 | aude_c[m] | Any interested or curious individuals are welcome to join in the Koha Docs meeting starting in 2min (on Jitsi Meet)! :) Details of the meeting are at: https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]27_September_2023 |
| 13:59 | caroline_catlady joined #koha | |
| 14:01 | ml joined #koha | |
| 14:02 | kellym joined #koha | |
| 14:03 | ashimema | just about to head out for the school run.. will try to join once I'm back aude_c |
| 14:03 | aude_c[m] | #startmeeting Documentation meeting 27 September 2023 |
| 14:03 | huginn | Meeting started Wed Sep 27 14:03:26 2023 UTC. The chair is aude_c[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 14:03 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | |
| 14:03 | The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_meeting_27_september_2023' | |
| 14:03 | aude_c[m] | #chair marie-luce |
| 14:03 | huginn | Current chairs: aude_c[m] marie-luce |
| 14:03 | David_Liddle joined #koha | |
| 14:04 | aude_c[m] | #info Aude Charillon, PTFS Europe, UK |
| 14:04 | #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro, Montreal, Canada | |
| 14:04 | #info Marie-Luce Laflamme, inLibro, Montreal, Canada | |
| 14:05 | ml | #info marie-luce inlibro, Montreal Canada |
| 14:05 | aude_c[m] | #info David Liddle, central Germany |
| 14:05 | #info Kelly McElligott, ByWater Solutions, Maine, USA | |
| 14:05 | #info Lucy Vaux-Harvey, PTFS Europe, UK | |
| 14:06 | #info Jonathan, Koha dev, Toulouse, France | |
| 14:06 | ml | #topic Review action points |
| 14:07 | aude_c[m] | #info Rebecca Bradshaw, England, UK |
| 14:09 | #info Aude to keep planning "How to document" workshops for the next few months, with Philip's help | |
| 14:09 | #topic What the team has been working on | |
| 14:12 | #info Jonathan has been working on moving Pootle to Weblate. Need a decisions about the one manual idea within one month | |
| 14:15 | #info Kelly has been working on the automated screenshots spreadsheet! | |
| 14:15 | #info Aude is working on updating Documentation's wiki pages | |
| 14:15 | #topic Automated screenshots | |
| 14:16 | #info Folder with spreadsheet and instructions https://docs.google.com/spread[…]it#gid=1050827337 | |
| 14:16 | #info Correct link (previous one was just for spreadsheet) https://drive.google.com/drive[…]ry3dc?usp=sharing | |
| 14:17 | #action "Keep going!" :D | |
| 14:23 | #info It's ok to pick and choose lines in the spreadsheet. Feel free to ask Caroline, Jonathan (or even Aude) for advice or if the guidelines need to be expanded. | |
| 14:26 | ml | #action we need more "random" images update to validate our automated screenshots script |
| 14:26 | aude_c[m] | #topic Existing notices section of the manual |
| 14:30 | ml | #link https://koha-community.org/man[…]notices-and-slips |
| 14:32 | aude_c[m] | #info idea is to expand the amount of information about each notice, and add anchors |
| 14:33 | ml | #info how can we include information about the template tool kit in the manual |
| 14:33 | aude_c[m] | #action Lucy and Aude to log a bug and start to show how it would look |
| 14:34 | #info Also raises the question of what belongs in the Manual and what should be in the wiki - something raised by others recently. | |
| 14:35 | #action Aude to add what belongs to Manual // Wiki as agenda item to next meeting | |
| 14:36 | ml | #idea maybe reformating the info in the notices section and decide how much details should we keep in the manual. |
| 14:37 | aude_c[m] | #topic Re-organising the manual |
| 14:39 | ml | #link https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32391 |
| 14:39 | huginn | 04Bug 32391: enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents |
| 14:41 | ashimema | Not able to join the call as still on the school run.. but with notices I really think the tooling inside Koha needs to be improved.. we shouldn't be expecting people to learn TT as much as we are.. and it's not just TT but Koha internals.. the picket options should output TT and we should expose options using context.. like navigating from one object to another using relation accessors . |
| 14:41 | Sounds very technical, but a picker would make it obvious and easy | |
| 14:43 | ml | #idea How can we improve search within the manual? Is there a way to redirect to the exact section from the results page? |
| 14:43 | emlam joined #koha | |
| 14:44 | cait | ashimema: i love the idea about navigating to the objects... I was pondering how to write better documentation, but the nested structure is kinda hard to explain? |
| 14:44 | ashimema | Yup |
| 14:44 | cait | now that you have that object... you can get another object from here... etc. |
| 14:44 | ashimema | This has been on the roadmap for literally years |
| 14:44 | There's never been enough interest for me to be able to do it | |
| 14:46 | aude_c[m] | #action Aude to get back to David Nind to say yes |
| 14:46 | cait | cryptic :) |
| 14:46 | yes to what? | |
| 14:46 | aude_c[m] | #action Aude to raise bugs about searching in the Manual |
| 14:47 | very ;) | |
| 14:56 | ml | #action we all agreed to keep only one manual from 23.11 |
| 14:57 | #topic Issues in the Pootle translation module | |
| 14:58 | #info Sometime translations are not moved directly into the manual | |
| 15:01 | #info Next meeting: 25 October 2023, 11:30 UTC | |
| 15:03 | #endmeeting | |
| 15:03 | aude_c[m] | ml++ |
| 15:03 | ashimema | darn.. I just got back |
| 15:03 | lol | |
| 15:04 | aude_c[m] | Thank you so much for your minuting! We talked A LOT! :D |
| 15:04 | oleonard | documentation_team++ |
| 15:05 | aude_c[m] | 😁 |
| 15:09 | caroline joined #koha | |
| 15:10 | aude_c[m] | #endmeeting |
| 15:10 | huginn | Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 15:10:27 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) |
| 15:10 | Minutes: https://meetings.koha-communit[…]-09-27-14.03.html | |
| 15:10 | Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-communit[…]3-09-27-14.03.txt | |
| 15:10 | Log: https://meetings.koha-communit[…]27-14.03.log.html | |
| 15:10 | aude_c[m] | Argh, looks like the person starting the meeting has to end it - not the co-chair |
| 15:11 | Another lesson learnt :D | |
| 15:11 | ashimema | co-chair can if they've been made it officially in meetbot I believe |
| 15:12 | yeah.. | |
| 15:12 | you used full name instead of irc nick above | |
| 15:12 | aude_c[m] | oops |
| 15:12 | ashimema | 'ml' wont have been linked to maria-luce |
| 15:12 | aude_c[m] | cait It was yes to going ahead with Bug 32391 |
| 15:12 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32391 enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents |
| 15:12 | ashimema | all good.. it's all learning |
| 15:13 | ta | |
| 15:13 | marie-luce joined #koha | |
| 15:13 | ashimema | we'll certainly need to test the contextual linking carefully with that.. make sure links from Koha's pages still work as intended |
| 15:14 | aude_c[m] | @later Tell davidnind Documentation team said "It looks nice" and "Yes, please go ahead" with bug 32391 (in today's meeting) |
| 15:14 | huginn | aude_c[m]: The operation succeeded. |
| 15:15 | khall joined #koha | |
| 15:15 | aude_c[m] | ashimema You want to add that as a comment to the bug? |
| 15:19 | ashimema | done |
| 15:20 | caroline | ashimema, PedroAmorim[m] I saw you added more patches to the place hold button bug, so you found a solution? |
| 15:22 | PedroAmorim[m] | kidclamp is giving it a go with an alternate patch. Meanwhile I made it depend on 34836 to not hold that one and separate things |
| 15:27 | cait | aude_c[m]: i have't had time to look at the bug- but when reorganizing, please keep the links from koha help to the manual in mind |
| 15:28 | ashimema | hahaha |
| 15:28 | that's what I commented | |
| 15:28 | cait | :) |
| 15:36 | aude_c[m] | On the bug now :D |
| 16:22 | caroline | I get what it means in context, but I find this sentence incredibly funny "Agreement user %s is missing a user" |
| 16:56 | kivilahtio | ashimema: Thanks. I definitely needed more loving. |
| 17:14 | kellym_ joined #koha | |
| 17:26 | kellym_ joined #koha | |
| 17:41 | kivilahtio | tuxayo: Bug 33503. I added a test plan now and incremented the test plan counter by one. Also changed the Koha plugin route injection subsystem to prefer the api_spec instead of api_routes, so we can have plugins support the legacy model and the new model. |
| 17:41 | huginn | 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions. |
| 18:01 | davidnind | @later tell aude_c Thanks! (About the manual reorganisation). I will update what I did (a while ago now...), and do a merge request. |
| 18:01 | huginn | davidnind: The operation succeeded. |
| 18:02 | davidnind | kellym_++ Spreadsheet and information about screenshots |
| 18:12 | khall joined #koha | |
| 19:22 | caroline | anyone around using the ERM module? |
| 19:25 | ill ask my question and maybe someone will see it later... | |
| 19:26 | davidnind | ashimema++ (Thanks for the comments on the Koha manual reorganisation document) |
| 19:26 | caroline | Why is the Physical location under Licenses > Documents not populated by ERM_AGREEMENT_LICENSE_LOCATION while the physical location under Agreement > Licenses is? |
| 19:27 | what is the difference between those two fields? | |
| 20:49 | slef joined #koha | |
| 21:20 | fridolin joined #koha | |
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| 22:59 | khall joined #koha |
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