IRC log for #koha, 2023-09-27

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Time Nick Message
00:29 kivilahtio Top of the evening #koha. I have started working on the ISO18626 ILL standard implementation to Koha some weeks ago and have been producing some technical documents regarding the Koha tech stack, ISO18626 transaction workflows etc.
00:29 I published them in the wiki: https://github.com/Hypernova-O[…]a-plugin-iso18626
00:29 Maybe ashimema, Joubu, tcohen[m], dcook, magnuse, are slightly interested?
00:30 Also KodoKorkalo[m], nugged.
00:44 dcook kivilahtio: Thanks for the link. Is that all good to go? Also you mention a wiki?
00:45 kivilahtio dcook: https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/ISO18626_RFC
00:45 How typical of me to share the wrong link :|
00:45 dcook Hehe all good
00:46 kivilahtio dcook: I am just setting up the foundation tech stack to build on. The data models are rather large so takes a bit of thought how to minimize repetitive code.
00:48 dcook It certainly looks big. I'll send it over to my director to take a look at since he's been doing iso18626 work too
00:48 (mostly for projects other than Koha)
01:28 tuxayo kivilahtio++
01:48 kivilahtio: That looks impressive, does that need a lot of stuff to be submitted to Koha? How do you manage the differences between Koha-Suomi and upstream Koha in regards to this?
01:58 > Does anyone know a ressource for testing EDI/EDIFACT stuff? For example I want to do «Find or create an item invoiced via an EDI INVOICE message»
01:58 great, there is this :D t/edi_testfiles/
01:59 Not I need to find out how to use edi_cron.pl
02:13 kivilahtio tuxayo: It is all bundled into a Koha plugin. No upstream changes needed. Just REST API, Vue SPA, DB schema. i18n and all baked in the plugin. One thing which would be easy to upstream is porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript. I have most of the stuff from ERM already working via TypeScript.
02:13 tuxayo great :)
02:14 kivilahtio tuxayo: To be specific, "I have some of the stuff..." but solved the real technical challenges.
02:17 tuxayo > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript
02:17 kivilahtio For this IIL plugin you had to port ERM JS code to TS? (I'm surely mixing up everything ^^" )
02:22 alohabot joined #koha
02:28 dcook tuxayo: I was curious about that too. I don't understand how the ERM JS relates to this plugin at all...
02:53 kivilahtio dcook: tuxayo: the ERM-plugin introduces some good patterns, such as a central notifications bus and DataTable wrappers. store and router, etc utilities. forms and the API accessors. So reusing them, instead of reinventingthe wheel.
02:54 dcook kivilahtio: That's something I've been interested in, but I didn't see a way of re-using them?
02:55 I kept thinking to re-use them they'd need to be in their own repo to be bundled?
02:55 I've been thinking it would be great to have a number of core Vue components/features that could be included into Koha plugins...
02:55 kivilahtio dcook: I am speaking more of the patterns. Those patterns are the patterns the Koha devs see when they start wondering about Vue in Koha, so trying to follow those. Apart from the i18n which vue has it's own implementation which is dead easy to use.
02:56 dcook I'm not sure I follow. So you mean you're copying/pasting or..?
02:56 kivilahtio Also if/when ISO18626 is wanted in the Koha-core, following the patterns makes it easier to ease the plugin to the core.
02:57 dcook: copy/pasting yes, then porting to TypeScript. Maybe it would be just easier to write new everything, especially since some of the parts are rather obscure with no type definitions, but nothing terribly difficultto figure out, as TypeScript highlights all type issues and invalid invocations so it is easy to find where the refactoring is still lacking.
02:58 dcook: It is just so much easier to understand what is happening with the code with good type definitions.
02:58 dcook: and especially how everything is supposed to be used.
03:10 tuxayo kivilahtio:
03:10 > porting the Vue.js assets to TypeScript
03:10 **Maybe** that was deliberate to no add another (even not that big) thing to learn to get onboard on Vue stuff. At the expense of the benefits of TypeScript :(
03:10 Recently there was a message warning about the lack of people knowing Vue to changes to Vue pages.
03:12 So keeping plain old JS might be necessary. I don't know if that was a choice for foreseeing the current reason.
03:14 "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages"
03:14 That might be a great contribution opportunity for you kivilahtio  ;) Even just reviewing code would help a lot, not full QA. Is that can make it easier to contribute to leave the UI testing for someone else.
03:19 kivilahtio <tuxayo> "lack of people knowing Vue to review changes to Vue pages" - You mean with the the Koha community?
03:19 tuxayo yes
03:23 kivilahtio tuxayo: Yes, Vue.js is a mouthful, and TypeScript too :) 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible. Now there was only one problem with the default vue project bootstrap scripts :D   And I managed to get the production assets bundled how I wanted in an hour or so.
03:23 But with decent community documentation it is not difficult to set up the project scaffolding and having somebody to maintain it. After that it is very straightforward to focus on the value adding implementation details.
03:25 But it is a really nice experience to develop the GUI with all the dev goodies: code hot reload and state persistence in the Vue stores. It is so much more fun than it used to be 10 years ago.
03:28 dcook While that sounds good, I still don't know how a person would handle making real re-usable Vue components in terms of Koha :p
03:29 Other than the community hosting the Javascript separately
03:29 Although I guess I also haven't had a need to find a solution either...
03:29 tuxayo > 6 years ago the state of the tooling (webpack, gulp, grunt, whatever, amd, umd) was terrible.
03:29 Nice that is progressed a lot :D
03:30 *it
03:30 kivilahtio dcook: /root/Koha/koha-tmpl/intranet​-tmpl/prog/js/vue/components
03:30 dcook That's not how my testing system is set up :p
03:30 We could do koha-testing-docker's paths though
03:31 I used to develop Koha plugins outside of koha-testing-docker, but these days I develop them inside it as well... so maybe that would work
03:31 kivilahtio dcook: Joubu already introduced reusable components. Like the Dialog.
03:31 dcook Only within the Koha project though
03:31 I have been glad for him moving more stuff out of ERM though for sure
03:31 kivilahtio dcook: also the HTTP clients can be repurposed.
03:32 dcook I've been meaning to look  more at those. I don't think I loved the way the HTTP clients were done..
03:32 I figure one of the biggest things is the DataTables
03:32 kivilahtio dcook: They work and are easily extendable.
03:32 dcook Being able to re-use that would be amazing
03:33 My next Koha plugin I might have to look at this all again
03:33 Most of my Vue work has been outside of Koha
03:33 kivilahtio dcook: Yes, it has this 1000 rows of legacy datatables.js from the Koha side. Big scary monster with no typing so impossible for compiler to tell if you have all the dependencies with you or not.
03:33 dcook datatables.js needs an update as well anyway hehe
03:34 kivilahtio dcook: it works :D
03:34 But it needs a pure Vue replacement to integrate better
03:34 dcook Agreed
03:35 I actually quite like working with Vue. Once we've got it integrated well into Koha I think it'll make a lot of things much easier
03:36 kivilahtio dcook: yup. Vue is beautiful. If we got websockets working, we could implement all kinds of fun stuff, like a centralized event bus where we could see other librarians logging in to Koha and doing stuff.
03:36 dcook I wish...
03:36 kivilahtio dcook: while not terribly beneficial, I think the librarians might feel a sense of oneness with the tribe, when theyu see their friends doing stuff in Koha.
03:37 dcook It would be interesting to know if another librarian has opened the same record as you..
03:37 But I don't know how optimistic I am about architectural changes
03:37 kivilahtio well that could be implemented with the REST API pulling events from Koha every minute or so, but having SPA which reacts in real-time to backend events, such as ILL status changes, would be really nice.
03:37 dcook There's only a small handful of us who are interested in newer technologies I think
03:37 So much inertia..
03:38 bug 31380
03:38 wahanui hmmm... bug 31380 is what I'm far more interested in but trying to give back a bit more
03:38 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31380 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, dcook, Needs Signoff , Build Mojolicious controller for running Koha plugins
03:39 dcook This is still using Mojo::Server::PSGI for compatibility reasons but it offers a way forward with Mojolicious...
03:39 kivilahtio dcook: it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience.
03:39 dcook ^
03:39 And commercial alignments..
03:39 kivilahtio exactly
03:39 dcook On that note, I need to focus on something else ;)
03:39 But very interested in what you're saying
03:50 tuxayo kivilahtio «it is extremely difficult to have the right persons in the same time focusing on the same problem with enough motivation in this distributed developer experience.»
03:50 Yes, for the case of Vue, having people review the patches refining the ERM and making Vue stuff more reusable for the rest of Koha is already hard.
03:53 kivilahtio dcook: interesting improvement you delivered. The plugins also need to deliver for the OPAC.
03:53 How about one would just use system() [TM] calls to start a separate mojolicious process from the plack.psgi :D
03:53 But if you take that route, why not just run Mojolicious in a separate process?
03:53 Wouldnt it be a bit easier?
03:53 I mean instead of this bug you are proposing, just ditch plack for Mojolicious alltogether and directly route to Mojolicious from Apaceh2
03:55 I don't understand why the legacy CGI and Mojolicious needed to be bundled together. Maybe it is easier to handle it with the koha-plack -helper.
03:57 dcook: "At the moment, Koha plugins run via Plack::App::CGIBin, which buffers responses and otherwise prevents plugins from fully leveraging the power of Plack and Mojolicious."
03:57 The plugins I write are SPA anyway and use the REST API, so maybe this doesn't help in that case?
03:58 dcook: speaking of plugins, I have this one:
03:58 https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503
03:58 huginn 04Bug 33503: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, ASSIGNED , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions.
03:59 kivilahtio it was a nightmare to debug what was wrong with the OpenAPI2 spec in the plugin. Too me some 3 weeks to solve it and have a patch in bugzilla.
04:11 tuxayo kivilahtio++
04:11 kivilahtio tuxayo: It was one of those "routine Koha-version upgrade moments"
04:12 tuxayo kivilahtio: you still want to complete the patch, right? Because the ticket status is "ASSIGNED"
04:14 kivilahtio tuxayo: well I changed that to Needs Signoff
04:15 tuxayo oh great, it was ready! Glad you brought it up, it would have stayed in limbo forever otherwise :o
04:16 kivilahtio tuxayo: It shouldnt have any side-effects
04:19 tuxayo kivilahtio: Any other patch that might be in the same situation? Anyway, for this one it needs a test plan to demonstrate that it does what is advertises to. Or at least to check for no regressions. Having the test plan understandable by some who doesn't know this area of Koha will help it to get tested.
04:19 There are 131 need signoff patches ^^" so the clearness of the test plan helps to make them stand out.
04:19 Minor QA feedback: commit message have to start with "Bug 33503: " no "Bug 33503 - "
04:19 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions.
04:20 kivilahtio tuxayo: ../Koha/REST/Plugin/PluginRoutes.t
04:20 tuxayo "same situation" => ready to be switched to need signoff
04:21 kivilahtio: great, if PluginRoutes.t is enough, then you can just add that in the commit message body.
04:21 kivilahtio tuxayo: okey dokey
04:21 tuxayo: You are correct, a test plan is something that must be included in the commit message
04:22 tuxayo tests are really great to make signoff a simple trivial formally
05:11 alohabot joined #koha
05:30 ashimema Morning
05:30 * dcook waves to ashimema
05:30 ashimema Lovely to see you around again kivilahtio
05:31 ILL, Pedro Amorim: is your man on that from the ptfs-e side these days.
05:31 We're very very keen on iso ill
05:31 Just working on far too many fronts all the time . But we were planning on working on it very soon
05:32 We need to flip core ILL on its head a bit first though we felt.. having multiple backends installed in parallel works but sucks right now.  And most if our libraries have at least three backends if not more
05:32 End uswr experience is confusing
05:33 Hi dcook
05:33 wahanui Hi dcook are you around?
05:33 ashimema I'd love to see websockets and a hypnotoad runner for mojo
05:34 Really wish I had more time to work on these things... I'm always in a state of do just enough to keep the customers happy right now.. rather than being able to innovate and move those more interesting and future faxing projects forward
05:34 It's kinda sad
05:35 dcook I've been thinking a little about that lately actually...
05:35 Like on one hand I want to innovate locally and prove that things can be done
05:35 On the other hand, if I innovate too much, the community won't accept it...
05:36 ashimema It's really hard
05:36 I don't think it's a lack of interest from the community.. people are keen for innovation to move forward.. we're all just so darn time poor at the moment 😭
05:38 I should probably set myself some more personal time to play with these things. I found myself doing far too much Koha on personal time for a while so I made myself a rule to stop coding and spend more time with the family and friends. (though Koha friends count in my book, so I do lurk here an awful lot.. haha)
05:38 dcook Hehe
05:38 Yeah I used to do the same
05:38 Had to get back to the real world though
05:39 Time and inertia...
05:39 Koha has also reached a certain size where it's tough to re-architect anything
05:40 ashimema Totally
05:40 dcook Although in theory doing more things by API should help..
05:40 ashimema Though I'd love to see more projects in that space
05:41 I keep hitting bugs where I'm like, yeah we really need this.  But he'll I see like 10 steps before we can actually start in the end goal
05:41 Commented as such on yet another one yeaterday
05:41 dcook I hear that
05:42 ashimema The bugs that makes everything hookable.. I have a real love hate thing going on with that one
05:42 dcook Hehehehe
05:42 I also hear that
05:42 I can't see that really working
05:42 ashimema Part of me loves the idea, another part of me is scared, no petrified, by it
05:42 dcook ^
05:42 Of course, I don't let anyone add plugins anymore ^_^
05:43 ashimema Our plugins system is way to wild west for my liking
05:43 dcook "phenomenal cosmic power itty bitty living space"
05:43 ashimema It's another area I'd really like more focus on
05:44 dcook It's a logical one too, since it's something we can all use to be more innovative
05:44 Increasingly I try to do all my devs as plugins
05:45 Well local devs
05:45 * dcook dreams of a day of having no local customizations...
05:46 ashimema I hear you
05:46 Though again I have a love hate with plugins in general too
05:46 I really like that Koha is all about sharing
05:47 dcook Mmm that's true too
05:47 ashimema And I feel plugins opens the door to a lot less sharing
05:47 Its why I'm keen to have a centralised plugin store so much
05:48 I really want much much more discoverability for plugins
05:48 dcook I do think that would be pretty cool
05:48 Signed by their authors...
05:49 ashimema The search from Koha stuff is nice.. but it's still rather crude and basic.. you kinda have to know what your looking for still.. we don't publish enough metadata to make it really nice and searchable
05:49 Definitely .
05:49 Signing is right up there for me
05:50 I'd even like to see dual signatures.. one for the author and one for community so we could have two levels of plugins.. community recommended and vetted and then everything else
05:50 dcook Oh I like that...
05:51 ashimema At that point I could see us starting to pull Koha apart a bit and moving a lot of the current core code into much more maintainable modular plugins
05:51 That's where I'd really really like to see us going
05:51 dcook I was actually thinking about that just a few minutes ago
05:51 ashimema Core Koha is just far too big right now
05:51 dcook It's so so big
05:51 ashimema Pedro Amorim: is super keen on that approach tok
05:51 Too
05:52 dcook I'm curious how that would work with AuthZ and system preferences...
05:53 ashimema He has my support to do that.. but yeah, we have sooooo many customer projects on.. shoe horning this sort of stuff into those paid Devs is a fun management challenge.. well, my challenge really as his manager
05:53 Haha, yup
05:53 That's an area that also needs the overhaul
05:54 Our AuthZ system needs to be much more standards based and pluggable
05:55 I see plugins being able to define their own scopes and leverage existing scope's . That's where the community signing process would really come in.. checking that plugins lookup and adhere to the scopes they should
05:55 Etc
05:55 Folio kinda does all this.. though in a hugely over complicated way and much more locked down
05:56 Brb, need a shower
05:56 dcook Yeah I feel like I need a shower after talking about those things too..
05:56 :p
05:56 ashimema Loo
05:56 Lol
06:17 dcook On the plus side, customer projects must be good from a business point of view :)
06:32 Joubu reading the logs, and my conclusion is: if everybody is saying "lack of interest from the community", we may need to redefine who is "the community" :D
06:35 dcook You know... when you say it like that...
06:39 ashimema I wouldn't say it's lack of interest at all actually
06:39 I would say it's lack of time
06:39 dcook Oh yeah we're talking lack of time. If there was lack of interest, that might be further back
06:39 Joubu lack of interest, lack of priority, lack of time, lack of focus at the same time, yes all of that
06:39 ashimema I feel like all the companies like the idea of innovation, but lack the resources to lt devs 'go with it' at the moment.. they all have so many paying developments in the pipe that they're stuck on those full time.
06:40 Joubu but then what do we do? Keep saying it? Or trying to fix those problems?
06:40 like having a roadmap, spreading the load, helping each others, etc.
06:40 dcook I do like the sound of that ^
06:41 Joubu ask your company to hire ;)
06:41 (again)
06:41 ashimema Joubu.. I clearly have.. our team has gone from one to 5
06:41 dcook <3
06:42 Joubu yes, I know, and good ones ;)
06:42 ashimema and that's awesome, but it's not as trivial as, 'just hire'.. you obviously have to make a case for it (which I managed).. but then it's a really time consuming process finding people and another time consuming process getting them on-boarded and up to speed 😜
06:42 We wen't through three rounds before we worked out what we should be looking for and how we should be advertising to get the one's we've got now.
06:42 dcook And with the community system, 1 company could have 50 people and it wouldn't be enough to get changes in, right?
06:43 ashimema I know ByWater are in a similar boat.. they've been struggling to find good devs for a while
06:43 good new devs
06:43 totally
06:43 but yeah.. I'd love to see more time on the fundamentals
06:43 dcook Definitely hard to find good new devs
06:43 ashimema and I've been advocating for a roadmap for literally a decade
06:44 dcook Which goes back to maybe what Joubu was saying about redefining "the community"
06:44 Maybe we should start accepting that there really is a small core group
06:44 ashimema problem is.. roadmaps need to be malleable for what the paying customers are wanting at any given time.
06:44 dcook Also true..
06:44 ashimema and when you slot that in with lots of companies and devs in all sorts of different places.. it's really really hard to get people to agree at all levels in the food chain which things to concentrate on when
06:44 dcook Although with this csrf stuff.. I think Joubu, me, and one other person could get a lot done
06:45 Maybe we should change the food chain?
06:45 ashimema who gets to say "We are going to focus on X for Y months" and why did they get to make that decision over anyone else whose arguably just as important
06:45 Joubu Sharing my situation: I have time, but lack of motivation. Rebasing the things again and again is really frustrating. I have stopped developping like crazy and refactoring all the legacy code. So now I have only a couple in the queue, and focus on non-direct Koha things (pootle->weblate, screenshots for the manual, etc.). And wait for the stuffs to be pushed (or simply get feedback) to start new things.
06:45 dcook Although I suppose Koha has been burnt before by centralizing power..
06:45 ashimema yeah
06:45 I get you Joubu
06:46 I'm keen for a few things.. I'd like more than one hackfest a year and I'd like to get those hackfests much more tightly focused on a deliverable or two
06:46 dcook ^
06:46 ashimema I always find them really good, but really hard.. I never come out the other end with a final goal met
06:46 and that's hard when you have people above your head pushing for their agenda's..
06:47 which I also get..
06:47 but still.. it's a pain
06:47 I'm going to advocate that for the next hackfest my team attend
06:48 3 targets maximum as a team and a push for focus beyond that team on those three targets.. get people onboard with a goal long before we arrive
06:48 I think if we can prove a concerted effort can yield results in that situation we stand more of a change of getting medium and long term community wide roadmaps in place
06:48 but before we've proved an output to the purse string holders, it aint going to happen..
06:48 my two cents
06:49 and breath....
06:49 dcook hehe
06:50 Joubu: I was just thinking.. maybe part of it is communication. Sometimes I wait on things and I think maybe no one has even noticed them
06:50 ashimema that's definitely a thing
06:50 keep bugging me, I WILL get to them
06:50 dcook Yeah, I've said that before too. Definitely keep bugging me.
06:50 ashimema but there are LOTS of bugs.. picking which to look at is often hard
06:51 Joubu I have tried the communication, some years ago I was sending email to the list, to let people know what we (active core members) were doing and when we needed help
06:51 we didn't get help
06:51 dcook That does sound familiar...
06:51 Joubu less big things, less time to integrate them, focus at the same time
06:51 that's the only things we need
06:51 we don't even need more people
06:51 dcook focus at the same time is a key one I think for sure
06:51 Joubu "what's on in koha-devel" it was called
06:52 dcook Because in theory if you have 3 people united... you're almost unstoppable hehe
06:52 author, test, QA
06:55 ashimema I find emails hard.. I am always behind on reading them and always have a backlog or long ones.
06:55 short snappy catching me on slack/irc is best to get my attention..
06:56 that way I'll stick it in a note and action it within a few hours or days usually.
06:56 if it's in an email.. by the time I read it, often the need has already gone.. or the interest has wained
06:56 Joubu or.. team tools everybody use at work, like kanban, etc. but we "tried" that as well
06:56 email or irc are not working
06:58 but talking about "what's on in koha-devel", it was either blog posts or email. I don't have a blog so email was appropriate.
06:59 dcook I was actually just thinking Zoom
06:59 Tough with timezones of course
06:59 At Prosentient, we all work in the office, but I've been wondering how you'd manage a remote workforce.. and surely you'd need to have regular synchronous catchups...
06:59 Joubu the problem is not the tool :D
06:59 dcook Agreed
06:59 I think it's being in sync
07:00 Frequent contact, knowing what we're working on/caring about
07:00 Of course, it's tough. I don't just work on Koha :/
07:01 cait joined #koha
07:03 ashimema we have a zoom call every morning, whole company still at the moment, though that's starting to be a challenge
07:03 we discuss the weather and stuff for a few mins to start.. just to keep it light and make sure everyones awake and has that social interaction.. then we do a round table of what people are doing work wise, any challenges etc..
07:04 dcook During lockdowns, that's we did as well
07:04 ashimema it's a big use of time.. like 1 hour a day.. but we've not managed to wean ourselves off it
07:04 we basically started this way and have carried on ever since as it's always worked..
07:04 but yeah.. growth is making it harder
07:04 dcook I suppose over time you'll have to subdivide
07:04 ashimema we now also have team breakouts more which I find helpful
07:05 dcook ^
07:05 ashimema and each day the morning meeting it followed by a topic meeting where we discuss Upgrades, Developments, Infrastructure, Support or Sales
07:05 oh.. and Projects
07:05 one per day on a bit of a rotation for some
07:06 dcook Now I'm feeling better about our meetings heh
07:06 ashimema the challenge is the level we communicate at in community.. the purse string holders often don't get involved
07:06 and at the end of the day, they're the one's with real power to give direction
07:06 I push hard for my team to have a certain amount of freedom with what they work on..
07:07 but it's always hard.. and when dollar signs light up in peoples eyes it's very difficult to say. "But we were doing this thing and want to finish that first"
07:08 dcook It is hard :/
07:08 Joubu you need to present it correctly: "we have to finish that first, or Koha will collapse in the next 2 weeks"
07:08 ashimema haha..
07:08 I do
07:08 and it works to some extent
07:08 but your preaching to the converted here..
07:09 dcook haha
07:09 ashimema we need InLibro to get onboard
07:09 we need biblibre to get on board
07:09 ByWater too to some extent
07:09 dcook I was wondering a bit about BibLibre's numbers
07:09 According to the dashboard, I've got more contributions this month, and I'm a one man show...
07:09 Mind you my contributions are little compared to their past ones..
07:10 ashimema in my view.. biblibre are awesome for hackfest.. though often their devs keep themselves to themselves on work at hackfest..
07:10 but the rest of the year I don't really hear or see much from them
07:10 Frido does a bit more again of course now.. but his timezone is challenging
07:10 Joubu And all the "I am a company with a lot of KOHA knowledge and I want to be on the support provider list" companies...
07:10 dcook ^
07:10 ashimema they're still good guys.. but busy.. as we all are.. and don't really focus on Koha a lot
07:10 dcook Joubu: I think that's one of my pet peaves
07:10 pet peeves*
07:10 ashimema ha, definitely Joubu
07:12 dcook Maybe I should make more days for just marking everything Failed QA
07:12 No bugs - no problems
07:13 Actually, I am trying to figure out some way of carving up my time better. It's hard because I'm dev and support..
07:13 Anyone can come along at any time...
07:14 ashimema yup
07:14 we're all dev and support here
07:14 our teams are loosely focused, but the expectation is you lend a hand whenever you can
07:14 cait don't ask about all my hats :)
07:14 dcook hehe
07:15 ashimema I will admit, I've been terrible for the roadmap this cycle.. I've barely even looked at it..
07:15 dcook People ask me what I do for work sometimes and I find it so hard to explain
07:15 cait I think it's ok that not every company has a dev team - some might just run Koha and do that well and I'd be ok with that
07:15 but overall we need more resources focused on helping others work along
07:15 to resolve our bottleneckes
07:15 just contributing patches is not going to help us clear queues
07:15 ashimema two reasons.. one I've been focused on getting the team up to speed and super busy and two I was feeling burned out roadmap wise..  I tried for like 5 cycles to move roadmap projects on and failed and it killed my motivation to work that way
07:16 cait I didn't mean you or anyone specific
07:16 ashimema just submitting bug reports isn't helpful either
07:16 cait just that we are out of balance and it shows in the queues
07:16 ashimema I often see a bug report.. fix it and never hear from the reporter again
07:16 no feedback, no signoff, nothing
07:16 it's infuriating
07:17 especially as that's almost always on my personal time
07:17 dcook <3
07:17 cait I think I have been guilty of that too
07:17 but there is just SO MANY things that it#s hard to keep on top
07:17 impossible really
07:17 * magnuse is guilty too
07:17 ashimema that wasn't directed at you either cait
07:17 cait I was really annyoed at myself for knowing about a database bug that badly bit us for ... like years
07:17 but I never got around to fix it
07:17 and then we lost data
07:17 ashimema you do a lot already.. it's the drive by one's that get my goat
07:17 the expectation you'll fix things and they never bother to come back on anything
07:17 Joubu any companies making money with Koha can find 1 hour a month to sign off a bug using the sandbox, no excuses
07:18 if they all do that, NSO queue is < 10
07:18 magnuse but if you find a bug, isn't it better to report it than not to report it?
07:18 cait lately, the NSO is not the one that worries me
07:18 ashimema or.. to be listed as a support company you should have to pay into a pot to pay for some community QA or Devs
07:18 cait we are getting close to deadlines already and QA queue is way too ful
07:18 ashimema or prove you're contributing in some other way
07:18 but I always get push back on that idea
07:18 and I can see why
07:18 but still
07:18 cait it makes people unhappy if their stuff doesn't even get looked at after sitting there long (it makes me unhappy too)
07:18 not good for anyone's motivation
07:19 dcook Now that I've helped stir the pot, I'm going to go on my little holiday o/
07:19 magnuse dcook++
07:19 ashimema enjoy dcook
07:19 dcook haha
07:19 ashimema dcook++
07:19 dcook Back more seriously on Oct 9 or so...
07:19 ciao ciao
07:20 Joubu dcook: Enjoy!
07:20 ashimema I encourage my team to try and stay in the top 10 on the SO leaders board... if not top 5..
07:21 I think next cycle I'd like to tentatively encourage them into the QA team and again set such a target using the leaderboard.
07:21 there's plenty of easy QA's out there they could start with
07:21 sorry cait 😜
07:21 talking team.. do we have any thoughts on who might be RM next cycle?
07:22 school run time.. brb
07:24 cait heh not me? :)
07:24 that's how it works right? the last to say it has to be it :)
07:28 Joubu not me
07:29 ashimema Wha..
07:29 Lol
07:30 Joubu we are good, it will be dcook, he just left
07:30 ashimema There's no obvious candidates to me
07:30 Hehe
07:33 * magnuse has been thinking there could be a hackfest focused on plugins, both focusing on the internals for the core devs and "how to write a plugin" for everyone else
07:33 Joubu RM job is 50% of the work time, or it is not done properly (full review, consistent pushes, building and guiding the team with a roadmap, etc.)
07:38 ashimema I'd argue even more than 50% a lot of the time
07:38 That's the challenge.
07:38 As much as I can see good people.. they need company support
07:38 That's a good focus magnuse
07:38 Would make for a good hackfest
07:39 * magnuse thinks so too
07:40 * ashimema has a list of topics he 5hinks would really benefit from a week hack approach
07:42 ashimema The advent series was good in that regard
07:42 Time again, I'd love to see more Dev docs like that one
07:45 magnuse +1
07:48 ashimema It was good to be focused.. we'd need to start writing the post asap I reckon.
07:48 Any thoughts on a good topic?
07:51 magnuse for advent calendar articles?
07:51 not off the top of my head, but i can try and think about it
07:53 ashimema I'd love to bring it back
07:53 I look forward to the perl ones every year
07:54 They vary a bit, but generally I like them
07:54 I love their themed style too.. the elf themed north pole fun makes me giggle every single time.. haha
07:57 magnuse :-)
07:59 aude_c[m] Was it an advent calendar with a dev audience in mind?
08:01 Joubu https://koha-community.gitlab.io/KohaAdvent/ - yes, dev oriented
08:04 magnuse a calendar for librarians is perhaps not a bad idea either?
08:05 aude_c[m] That was kind of my question: who's your audience? What do you want them to get out of it? :D
08:07 One could argue there are plenty of resources for librarians already...
08:09 magnuse true
08:09 an easy option could be to just gather 24 links to really good things that are already out there, perhaps
08:10 ashimema Yeah.. I liked the idea of a librarian focused one too
08:10 though I felt librarians were already better catered for with all the various vlogs and things we already have out there
08:10 devs were missing that
08:11 but I'm not against it.. just didn't have the time/contacts to orchestrate both 😜
08:12 * ashimema should have read that hole convo before replying
08:12 aude_c[m] I agree with Magnus - it would be easy to do and could highlight some lesser-known resources.
08:12 ashimema Yeah, that's certainly a great idea
08:12 aude_c[m] Depends what we / you want to achieve :)
08:13 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Reading back on the plugins talk from earlier, my next target on the dev documentation side is to attack the plugins pages on the Wiki and try and bring them up to date
08:13 ashimema may also be a good oportunity to highlight a lot of the work that goes on behind the scenes that people are unaware of
08:14 like all the volunteer time that goes into keeping Jenkins running, building packages, running the translation servers, etc, etc
08:14 none of that is really recognised
08:14 magnuse +1
08:14 aude_c[m] +1
08:25 ashimema Joubu still about?
08:25 matt.blenkinsop may need a pointer on selenium cleanup issues in Jenkins
08:25 Joubu ashimema: yes
08:26 magnuse gah, we have a koha 22.05.12 using elastic 7 for search. search works in both opac and staff, but some records are only searchable in staff, not in the opac. it is not bug 30141 or OpacHiddenItems. anyone else seen that?
08:26 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30141 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , ElasticsearchCrossFields enabled returns no search results on OPAC
08:27 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: t/db_dependent/selenium/patrons_search.t failure on 22.11_D11?
08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Yes thats the one
08:27 Joubu if so, I fixed it yesterday
08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ah perfect, which bug?
08:27 Joubu (trying to remember the bug number)
08:27 ashimema awesome people
08:27 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] I'll email Fridolin and backport it
08:27 ashimema as painful as Koha can be sometimes.. we do have a lovely community really.. thanks for caring Joubu
08:28 Joubu 27634 - but it was not the same failure actually!
08:28 but I looked at patrons_search.t as well IIRC
08:29 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] The error is a cleanup issue rather than one of the tests failing
08:30 Joubu the failure on jenkins is "Cannot wait more for jQuery to be active", it's not the cleanup
08:31 MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: do you get the failure locally? I've tried yesterday on 23.05 and it was passing for me
08:31 ashimema arg
08:31 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] I'm rebooting KTD with selenium to test
08:34 Joubu the failure is consistent on jenkins. And both 22.11 and 23.05 are failing since Sept 8th.
08:36 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] 22.11 had an issue with ERM which I fixed yesterday
08:37 Joubu I meant, patrons_search.t is failing since https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_22.11_D11/249/
08:37 #248 was green
08:37 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ah right ok, I'll see if I can replicate locally
08:38 Joubu I am running the whole test suite, replicating jenkins
08:39 will see how it goes
08:40 note that it's logged there already: bug 31199. But it's failing randomly on master, it seems consistent on 22.11
08:40 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31199 normal, P5 - low, ---, chris, NEW , selenium/patrons_search.t is failing randomly
08:54 cait MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: I'd appreciate any dev documentation updates for the wiki! API or plugins would be both great
08:54 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: that's actually a random failure, on run #251 patrons_search.t is passing
08:55 krimsonkharne[m] morning #koha
08:55 Joubu 252, 253, 255, 256 as well
08:55 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] It passed for me locally just now
08:56 Joubu there is something going on when the server is slow to responde, which is hard to replicate locally
08:56 magnuse never mind my earlier problem, the records had 942$n = 1
08:56 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: so basically, the short answer is: it's not blocker for a release. Schedule another build and with a bit of luck it will be green
08:56 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] 256 was the cypress failure, I'll re-trigger a Jenkins run and see if it passes this time
08:56 Joubu heh ;)
08:57 MatthewBlenkinsop[m] Ok sounds good, thanks for looking at it!
08:57 krimsonkharne[m] hey, noob question, but can I find documentation for the qa script somewhere?
08:57 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: you can still log the failure on 31199, provide the job, run #, and node
08:58 krimsonkharne[m]: what kind of documentation do you want? The project is at https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools
08:58 ashimema https://gitlab.com/koha-community/qa-test-tools
08:58 the readme is pretty much it
08:58 lol
08:58 krimsonkharne[m] alright, thanks both
08:58 joubu++ ashimema++
08:59 Joubu krimsonkharne[m]: are you looking for something specific?
08:59 krimsonkharne[m] Joubu: yeah
08:59 I have zero experience with writing my own perl scripts and wanted to try it out
08:59 ashimema he magic is, you don't need any of the setup if you're using ktd.. it's all there for you already
08:59 so you literally just call qa and that does all the magic for you
08:59 krimsonkharne[m] for bug 29324
08:59 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=29324 minor, P5 - low, ---, philip.orr, Failed QA , Some files still don't have the correct license statement
08:59 * ashimema should add --more-tests to the readme though
08:59 ashimema that's not documented there.. but is in the --help
09:00 krimsonkharne[m] the idea I had was to write a perl file to prepend copyright or license statements to all files missing them
09:00 would work fine but qa gives me a couple of fails, and as a noob non-dev I don't understand them...
09:00 Joubu don't take koha-qa.pl as an example of good practices
09:01 ok, forget what I just said then.
09:01 What is the failure?
09:01 wahanui well, the failure is due to the Docker_3 executor
09:01 krimsonkharne[m] file permissions: File must have the exec flag
09:02 ashimema chmod +x on the files it mentions is the resolution for that one
09:02 and commit it of course
09:02 file permissions
09:03 Joubu.. do you know what -d was ever for in the qa script?
09:03 it doesn't appear to do anything now
09:05 Joubu "added -d arg for smart-comments"
09:05 Date:   Fri Aug 24 09:52:29 2012 +1200
09:05 since then we removed smart comments
09:06 so -d is useless and should be removed
09:06 ashimema okies
09:09 krimsonkharne[m] yep that fixed it ashimema!
09:09 ashimema++
09:12 ashimema that's just basic linux file permissions stuff.. but if you don't know you don't know.. glad I could help
09:12 I just did a tiny update to the README to get it inline with current functionality 🙂
09:14 cait ashimema++
09:16 ashimema are you happy with your fix for issue_75 Joubu
09:16 it looks solid to me.. and works in a quick test..
09:16 can I merge it:?
09:16 qa script that is
09:19 Joubu MatthewBlenkinsop[m]: my laptop is overwhelmed at the moment, loadavg is 25, and the test is failing :D
09:24 ashimema: not really happy, but it's the best solution I found
09:24 ashimema yeah.. I can't think of anything better off the top of my head
09:24 I reckon lets go with this and refine if we get inspired down the line
09:24 "it's only tooling"
09:24 I'd rather see it move than languish 😜
09:26 I was just considering a look at https://gitlab.com/koha-commun[…]tools/-/issues/63
09:27 contemplating whether we need a QohA::File::Specific::DBRev class for a new class of tests against our db_rev files
09:27 we already have a couple of special catches for them embedded inside File::Perl
09:28 for the INSERT IGNORE INTO test
10:04 demetriv22[m] joined #koha
10:05 Joubu ashimema: yes, we definitelly need a new class!
10:05 ashimema coolios
10:06 the minor thing holding me back was thinking we probably want both to run.. our standard Perl checks + the atomic update specific ones
10:06 I wasn't sure how to do that.. add the QohA::File::* twice.. once for Perl and once for Special::DBRev
10:06 or what
10:06 any preference?
10:06 do we even need to run the standard Perl tests on it
10:07 demetriv22[m] I'm seeking some advice on the implementation of the Koha library system. In particular, how does the system interact with local servers or Microsoft 365? Is there process documentation that can be share,please?
10:07 ashimema interact in what way demetriv22
10:07 Koha's is self contained and web based
10:07 but you can use API's to talk to it.. and you can use various Auth mechanisms and things
10:08 like LDAP, Shibboleth, SAML2, CAS et al
10:08 demetriv22[m] Hi, so can Koha be used in conjuction with M365 powerapps?
10:08 ashimema Azure and MS etc all happily link in those ways
10:08 I have no idea what a M365 powerapp is or what you want to do with it
10:09 Joubu ashimema: I think it will fail if you run the usual perl tests (at least critic) on the dbrevs, but something to confirmed!
10:09 you are not supposed to add a file twice, at least we don't do that so far
10:10 I would make DBRev inherit from File::Perl if you want to run tests from both classes
10:11 ashimema ah, good call!
10:11 why didn't I think of inheritance.. sometimes the brain is slow
10:11 demetriv22[m] So, I want to use this system as a means of sharing insights across my business. These insights are reports, PDFs, books, and journal papers. There are several groups that will need insights.
10:12 ashimema to me, that sounds like Koha is hugely overkill.. it's a fully fledged library management system.
10:13 it's not a 'plug and play app' for the M365 ecosystem.
10:13 but I could be wildly misunderstanding your use case
10:18 demetriv22[m] I thought that it might be too. However, I can't find something that's between the basic file sharing system and a more advanced platform. The issue we have is that there are lots of reports, hosted in different places, which last year took months to consolidate. As our area of work expands so does the number of reports. I want a central repository where uses can add and search for reports that may be of interest. I'd welcome your thoughts
10:18 here, thanks.
10:19 oleonard joined #koha
10:20 ashimema I kinda feel like an object repository might suit you better.. something like dspace.. though again I have no idea how that integrates with existing MS offerings
10:20 sorry I can't really be of much more help
10:31 khall joined #koha
10:48 demetriv22[m] Ok thanks. I'll look into it.
11:30 oleonard ashimema: Potential complication to the DataTables upgrade... I'm finding that the new and old options names are not playing nice together. I've posted to the DataTables forum to get more information.
11:31 I'd like to avoid having to update dozens of templates :(
11:33 Joubu we could script the renaming, I am sure it will be easy to find a link between old and new and it should not catch a lot of incorrect matches.
11:34 I mean, a list of the old<->new options' names
11:34 oleonard Joubu: I'm more concerned about the difficulty in moving such a big patch through testing
11:35 ashimema I'd love to see us make that move.. dropping all the old Hungarian style or whatever it was called
11:35 but.. perhaps not as part of this particular patch
11:37 oleonard The options are supposed to be backwards compatible, but I'm finding that with 1.13.x if you define a default in camelCase it overrides the Hungarian-style option on the page
11:41 cait I'd be happy to help testing
11:41 i think for a GUI change like this we could also recruit other people
11:42 oleonard I've been submitting so many patches lately with huge test plans... I'm going to wear out my welcome :D
11:45 cait nah
11:45 I don't see any danger there
11:47 * cait misses kidclamp
11:51 magnuse oleonard++
11:59 ashimema meeting?
11:59 wahanui meeting is over :)
11:59 ashimema ho.. I made a :tea: about an hour ago and forgot to drink it.. lol
12:02 caroline the meeting is now right?
12:02 thd joined #koha
12:07 ashimema I thought so
12:08 thd I am waiting for moderator in jitsi
12:08 caroline same
12:08 thd tcohen are you present for the meeting?
12:08 magnuse https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]27_September_2023
12:09 * ashimema pokes tcohen in slack
12:09 aude_c[m] Can't anyone be the moderator?
12:09 That was my impression from your meeting agenda (https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]7_September_2023) and I was interested because I have never used that function, haha
12:10 thd We had scheduled a meeting time two hours earlier on this occasion to avoid a conflict with the previously scheduled documentation meeting.
12:14 ashimema no response from him yet
12:17 marie-luce joined #koha
12:17 thd Maybe still a little early to find tcohen ordinarily.
12:17 ashimema I'm going to carry on with my support calls
12:18 it's 9.15 in corboda
12:18 but I have a feeling he's just completely forgotten
12:18 caroline ok well, ping me if you need an update on Kohacon. So far nothing much has changed from the last time. Still trying to get in touch with perl people, mainly through nugged, but not much response
12:18 ashimema it's earlier for most of bywater
12:18 caroline I got to the office earlier too
12:19 It's not super early (8am) but I usually get in at 9
12:20 thd Definitely early for much of the US.
12:20 ashimema oh no, sorry caroline
12:26 caroline no need to be sorry!
12:27 (you can be sure I'll leave early lol)
12:36 khall joined #koha
12:39 tcohen[m] hola #koha o/
12:39 I had the wrong time for the meeting
12:39 sorry for that
12:40 #startmeeting Development Meeting 27 September 2023
12:40 huginn Meeting started Wed Sep 27 12:40:27 2023 UTC.  The chair is tcohen[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:40 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
12:40 The meeting name has been set to 'development_meeting_27_september_2023'
12:40 tcohen[m] #topic Introductions
12:41 #info Tomas Cohen Arazi
12:43 caroline Sorry, I have another meeting at 9
12:43 (in 20 minutes)
12:45 tcohen[m] #info No quorum for the dev meeting this time. Re-scheduling
12:45 #endmeeting
12:45 huginn Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 12:45:13 2023 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:45 Minutes:        https://meetings.koha-communit[…]-09-27-12.40.html
12:45 Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-communit[…]3-09-27-12.40.txt
12:45 Log:            https://meetings.koha-communit[…]27-12.40.log.html
12:54 marie-luce joined #koha
13:19 Joubu aude_c[m]: https://docs.weblate.org/en/we[…]i.html#categories - (yet another) example of "New in version x"
13:20 There is also, on the same page "Deprecated since version 2.6"
13:27 ashimema caroline
13:27 wahanui caroline is always referring to this page, actually to this one https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]-_Tips_and_Tricks for the heading marks
13:27 aude_c[m] Thanks!
13:28 caroline lol, I am always refering to that page actually
13:28 what's up?
13:28 aude_c[m] 😁
13:28 ashimema do you understand what the heck the the onshelf holds preferences are meantt to do
13:29 caroline ugh, holds, the bane of my existence... which pref? or do you mean the rules?
13:29 aude_c[m] Joubu That's a really neat example 👍️
13:30 ashimema must be a rule.. I can't find a pref
13:30 caroline oh, do you mean the if any available vs if none available?
13:30 aude_c[m] I really don't like the way the onshelf options in the circ rules are named (so confusing)
13:30 ashimema the options are confusing
13:30 caroline me either
13:30 aude_c[m] lol
13:31 ashimema 'Yes', 'If any unavailable' and 'If all unavailable'
13:31 what the heck do those mean?
13:31 caroline Ok, so yes is pretty self explanatory
13:31 ashimema Pedro Amorim: is doing his head in trying to understand
13:32 I'm baffled as to why there's no 'No' options
13:32 it's yes, yes or yes
13:32 caroline if any unavailable is if at least one item is unavailable, you can place on shelf holds (I think)
13:32 aude_c[m] But it's different types of yes!
13:32 Yes: This will allow to place holds on items at all times. It doesn’t matter if they are available or checked out.
13:32 If any unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as one or more items of the record are checked out. It doesn’t matter if there are still one or more items available on the shelf.
13:32 If all unavailable: This will allow to place a hold as soon as all items on the record are checked out that could fill the hold. This is especially useful for libraries that don’t offer the service of getting items placed on hold off the shelf for patrons.
13:32 caroline If all unavailable is basically no
13:33 ashimema why not call it No then!
13:33 lol
13:33 caroline don't ask me! lol
13:33 ashimema well.. we're basically finding is doesn't work
13:33 PedroAmorim[m] it was originally tho
13:33 https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]&attachment=50824
13:33 check smart-rules.tt
13:34 caroline The only time I use if any unavailable is for libraries who don't allow onsehlf holds, but have like serials on the same record, so they want patrons to ba able to place holds on checked out issues
13:34 PedroAmorim[m] it then became no, if one unavailable, if all unavailable
13:34 and after that became what we have now
13:34 caroline so it's 'Yes', 'No, but maybe', and 'No' :)
13:35 ashimema this is all in regard to bug 34886 btw
13:35 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34886 normal, P5 - low, ---, pedro.amorim, Signed Off , Regression in when hold button appears
13:35 ashimema we have multiple customers unhappy about it.. but can't for the life of us work out what is meant to be happening
13:36 I basically want to revert bug 30846 at this point
13:36 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30846 normal, P5 - low, ---, hammat.wele, Pushed to oldstable , "If any unavailable" doesn't consider negative notforloan values as unavailable
13:36 Joubu PedroAmorim[m]: aren't you reverting 30846 with your second patch?
13:36 PedroAmorim[m] no
13:37 and, second patch from what bug? =D
13:37 Joubu talking in the current context
13:37 PedroAmorim[m] 34886
13:37 Joubu 34886
13:37 PedroAmorim[m] I'm rolling back Martin's first proposal
13:37 in my 2nd patch
13:37 not 30846
13:37 Joubu ok, ignore me then
13:37 staying away of this discussion :D
13:37 PedroAmorim[m] ignore you? that's easy!
13:38 no, please stay (really, we could use you here)
13:38 Joubu I don't want to! :)
13:38 holds!!
13:38 ashimema LOL
13:39 caroline I feel like those two bugs should fix something totally different, no?
13:39 Joubu and you are correct, I misread 30846
13:39 caroline One is based on the status, one is based on the patron being logged in or not?
13:39 ashimema 30846 caused the other
13:39 it looks like a tiny change, but in fact it's huge
13:40 Dyrcona joined #koha
13:40 caroline how come the status one affects the patron?
13:40 ashimema one line, but that one line completely changes what functions it's using.. so it's more like a few hundred line change
13:40 we never looked at patron before
13:40 the switch changes us from looking at status only to requiring patron so we can look at patron too
13:41 caroline I don't understand, is it because there is a circulation rule and the circ rule has a patron category?
13:42 but even then, the negative not for loan should be considered unavailable but holdable no matter what the circ rule says
13:42 ashimema correct
13:42 that's what should have been getting checked..
13:43 I don't think we should ever have switched to using a method that checks a lot more than that
13:44 caroline for that case
13:44 but for other cases, you might need to check the patron, no?
13:45 like if teachers can place onshelf holds, but not students
13:45 ashimema totally
13:45 but you can't check that until after login
13:46 caroline yes
13:46 ashimema our customers are angry that the hold button has disappeared in 90% of cases for them because their students aren't logged in yet..
13:46 the possiblity for a hold needs to be obvious up front.
13:47 caroline I understand
13:47 PedroAmorim[m] Before 30846, the function being called from the opac page was Koha::CirculationRules->get_onshelfholds_policy which does not require a $patron to be defined in order to work. It checks $patron itself and has it's own fallback.
13:47 After 30846, the function now being called is IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest which is a function that requires $patron to be defined if On shelf holds allowed = "If all unavailable".
13:47 I think IsAvailableForItemLevelRequest has never even been used by a OPAC page before, thus it always had a $patron defined since you need to be authenticated in the staff UI but don't quote me on that
13:49 caroline we have had complaints in the other direction: patrons see the button, click on it, log in, and then are told they can't reserve, complain to the library, library complains to us :)
13:51 ashimema lol
13:52 aude_c[m] Just some advance warning that we're having a Documentation meeting starting on the hour. We'll be using Jitsi Meet for discussions but also attempting to use (!) this channel to record minutes.
13:52 Joubu The first "place hold" button when the patron is not logged in could be renamed like "check holdability", to remove the ambiguity
13:52 tcohen[m] I gree :-D
13:53 caroline interesting solution
13:53 aude_c[m] I can foresee a lot of users finding this annoying 😅
13:54 ashimema lol
13:54 caroline I think users will be annoyed either way, as we've seen, you get complaints for one behaviour and we get complaints for the exact reverse behaviour
13:57 gotta move for the meeting bbl
13:58 aude_c[m] Any interested or curious individuals are welcome to join in the Koha Docs meeting starting in 2min (on Jitsi Meet)! :) Details of the meeting are at: https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]27_September_2023
13:59 caroline_catlady joined #koha
14:01 ml joined #koha
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14:03 ashimema just about to head out for the school run.. will try to join once I'm back aude_c
14:03 aude_c[m] #startmeeting Documentation meeting 27 September 2023
14:03 huginn Meeting started Wed Sep 27 14:03:26 2023 UTC.  The chair is aude_c[m]. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:03 The meeting name has been set to 'documentation_meeting_27_september_2023'
14:03 aude_c[m] #chair marie-luce
14:03 huginn Current chairs: aude_c[m] marie-luce
14:03 David_Liddle joined #koha
14:04 aude_c[m] #info Aude Charillon, PTFS Europe, UK
14:04 #info Caroline Cyr La Rose, inLibro, Montreal, Canada
14:04 #info Marie-Luce Laflamme, inLibro, Montreal, Canada
14:05 ml #info marie-luce inlibro, Montreal Canada
14:05 aude_c[m] #info David Liddle, central Germany
14:05 #info Kelly McElligott, ByWater Solutions, Maine, USA
14:05 #info Lucy Vaux-Harvey, PTFS Europe, UK
14:06 #info Jonathan, Koha dev, Toulouse, France
14:06 ml #topic Review action points
14:07 aude_c[m] #info Rebecca Bradshaw, England, UK
14:09 #info Aude to keep planning "How to document" workshops for the next few months, with Philip's help
14:09 #topic What the team has been working on
14:12 #info Jonathan has been working on moving Pootle to Weblate. Need a decisions about the one manual idea within one month
14:15 #info Kelly has been working on the automated screenshots spreadsheet!
14:15 #info Aude is working on updating Documentation's wiki pages
14:15 #topic Automated screenshots
14:16 #info Folder with spreadsheet and instructions https://docs.google.com/spread[…]it#gid=1050827337
14:16 #info Correct link (previous one was just for spreadsheet) https://drive.google.com/drive[…]ry3dc?usp=sharing
14:17 #action "Keep going!" :D
14:23 #info It's ok to pick and choose lines in the spreadsheet. Feel free to ask Caroline, Jonathan (or even Aude) for advice or if the guidelines need to be expanded.
14:26 ml #action we need more "random" images update to validate our automated screenshots script
14:26 aude_c[m] #topic Existing notices section of the manual
14:30 ml #link https://koha-community.org/man[…]notices-and-slips
14:32 aude_c[m] #info idea is to expand the amount of information about each notice, and add anchors
14:33 ml #info how can we include information about the template tool kit in the manual
14:33 aude_c[m] #action Lucy and Aude to log a bug and start to show how it would look
14:34 #info Also raises the question of what belongs in the Manual and what should be in the wiki - something raised by others recently.
14:35 #action Aude to add what belongs to Manual // Wiki as agenda item to next meeting
14:36 ml #idea maybe reformating the info in the notices section and decide how much details should we keep in the manual.
14:37 aude_c[m] #topic Re-organising the manual
14:39 ml #link https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32391
14:39 huginn 04Bug 32391: enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents
14:41 ashimema Not able to join the call as still on the school run.. but with notices I really think the tooling inside Koha needs to be improved.. we shouldn't be expecting people to learn TT as much as we are.. and it's not just TT but Koha internals.. the picket options should output TT and we should expose options using context.. like navigating from one object to another using relation accessors .
14:41 Sounds very technical, but a picker would make it obvious and easy
14:43 ml #idea How can we improve search within the manual? Is there a way to redirect to the exact section from the results page?
14:43 emlam joined #koha
14:44 cait ashimema: i love the idea about navigating to the objects... I was pondering how to write better documentation, but the nested structure is kinda hard to explain?
14:44 ashimema Yup
14:44 cait now that you have that object... you can get another object from here... etc.
14:44 ashimema This has been on the roadmap for literally years
14:44 There's never been enough interest for me to be able to do it
14:46 aude_c[m] #action Aude to get back to David Nind to say yes
14:46 cait cryptic :)
14:46 yes to what?
14:46 aude_c[m] #action Aude to raise bugs about searching in the Manual
14:47 very ;)
14:56 ml #action we all agreed to keep only one manual from 23.11
14:57 #topic Issues in the Pootle translation module
14:58 #info Sometime translations are not moved directly into the manual
15:01 #info Next meeting: 25 October 2023, 11:30 UTC
15:03 #endmeeting
15:03 aude_c[m] ml++
15:03 ashimema darn.. I just got back
15:03 lol
15:04 aude_c[m] Thank you so much for your minuting! We talked A LOT! :D
15:04 oleonard documentation_team++
15:05 aude_c[m] 😁
15:09 caroline joined #koha
15:10 aude_c[m] #endmeeting
15:10 huginn Meeting ended Wed Sep 27 15:10:27 2023 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
15:10 Minutes:        https://meetings.koha-communit[…]-09-27-14.03.html
15:10 Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-communit[…]3-09-27-14.03.txt
15:10 Log:            https://meetings.koha-communit[…]27-14.03.log.html
15:10 aude_c[m] Argh, looks like the person starting the meeting has to end it - not the co-chair
15:11 Another lesson learnt :D
15:11 ashimema co-chair can if they've been made it officially in meetbot I believe
15:12 yeah..
15:12 you used full name instead of irc nick above
15:12 aude_c[m] oops
15:12 ashimema 'ml' wont have been linked to maria-luce
15:12 aude_c[m] cait It was yes to going ahead with Bug 32391
15:12 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32391 enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Reorganise the manual contents
15:12 ashimema all good.. it's all learning
15:13 ta
15:13 marie-luce joined #koha
15:13 ashimema we'll certainly need to test the contextual linking carefully with that.. make sure links from Koha's pages still work as intended
15:14 aude_c[m] @later Tell davidnind Documentation team said "It looks nice" and "Yes, please go ahead" with bug 32391 (in today's meeting)
15:14 huginn aude_c[m]: The operation succeeded.
15:15 khall joined #koha
15:15 aude_c[m] ashimema You want to add that as a comment to the bug?
15:19 ashimema done
15:20 caroline ashimema, PedroAmorim[m] I saw you added more patches to the place hold button bug, so you found a solution?
15:22 PedroAmorim[m] kidclamp is giving it a go with an alternate patch. Meanwhile I made it depend on 34836 to not hold that one and separate things
15:27 cait aude_c[m]: i have't had time to look at the bug- but when reorganizing, please keep the links from koha help to the manual in mind
15:28 ashimema hahaha
15:28 that's what I commented
15:28 cait :)
15:36 aude_c[m] On the bug now :D
16:22 caroline I get what it means in context, but I find this sentence incredibly funny "Agreement user %s is missing a user"
16:56 kivilahtio ashimema: Thanks. I definitely needed more loving.
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17:41 kivilahtio tuxayo: Bug 33503. I added a test plan now and incremented the test plan counter by one. Also changed the Koha plugin route injection subsystem to prefer the api_spec instead of api_routes, so we can have plugins support the legacy model and the new model.
17:41 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=33503 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, olli-antti.kivilahti, Needs Signoff , Plugin OpenAPI2.0 specification schema fragments are not resolved. Merge full schema definitions.
18:01 davidnind @later tell aude_c Thanks! (About the manual reorganisation). I will update what I did (a while ago now...), and do a merge request.
18:01 huginn davidnind: The operation succeeded.
18:02 davidnind kellym_++ Spreadsheet and information about screenshots
18:12 khall joined #koha
19:22 caroline anyone around using the ERM module?
19:25 ill ask my question and maybe someone will see it later...
19:26 davidnind ashimema++ (Thanks for the comments on the Koha manual reorganisation document)
19:26 caroline Why is the Physical location under Licenses > Documents not populated by ERM_AGREEMENT_LICENSE_LOCATION while the physical location under Agreement > Licenses is?
19:27 what is the difference between those two fields?
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