IRC log for #koha, 2023-09-01

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Time Nick Message
00:13 tuxayo +1 , major OSes having still old releases supported doesn't mean programs still have to support that. Things are less strict.
00:13 dcook They're also "supported" in a way that I think isn't accessible to most users anyway.
00:14 I think it comes with added fees so I don't know if people actually buy that extra support or just say it's supported because there's a future date published on the internet..
00:15 Docker is available from RHEL 7+ anyway, so hopefully koha-docker will mature and then it's less of an issue after that
00:16 These days, if you're not running Debian/Ubuntu and want Koha, then I'd say the way to do it would be via Docker if you don't want to switch OSes
00:16 Easier said than done at the moment, but I think Tomas and folk are working on it
00:17 tuxayo ""supported" in a way that I think isn't accessible to most users anyway. "
00:17 Aren't libraries or any public institutions have some chance of being Red Hat customers for stuff like Extended Life-cycle Support (ELS) ?
00:17 Still should be rare though.
00:20 "Docker is available from RHEL 7+ anyway, so hopefully koha-docker will mature and then it's less of an issue after that"
00:20 Indeed, it feel it would be easier to get sysadmins to manage a container of a recent OS than upgrade the OS running on the bare metal.
00:20 Even though it's still an OS to manage, update look for security issue. So I'm not sure if objectively there is much difference.
00:22 "if you're not running Debian/Ubuntu and want Koha, then I'd say the way to do it would be via Docker if you don't want to switch OSes"
00:22 Ah I see, it's objectively simpler to use containers if your bare metal OS it already running other stuff.
00:24 > Easier said than done at the moment, but I think Tomas and folk are working on it
00:24 dcook doesn't it work well to spin a Debian or Ubuntu container and follow the install instructions?
00:24 Unless it's about using docker like a packaging format instead of just light VMs
00:27 dcook tuxayo: You have to be careful with your volumes if you don't want things to disappear when it comes time to update your container image
00:28 Managing containers comes with its own challenges I reckon. It's scarier to do updates since you're updating the whole thing instead of just a few files
00:32 tuxayo That lessens the potential of containers helping for old OS installs. And convincing to use containers instead of switching the OS. Still a net gain I think.
00:33 dcook Well if their sysadmins are doing the work. If someone experienced with Koha is doing it, I think it'll be fine (once the Koha community builds up its skills too)
00:33 But I do wonder...
00:33 It might be wise for Docker images to take over completely, so that everyone is deploying it the same way
00:34 I think the images would still be using Debian or Ubuntu and we'd still end up with custom Deb packages on custom images
00:34 But if that base infrastructure choice were shared across the board then it would be easier for everyone to support and collaborate...
00:48 tuxayo > It might be wise for Docker images to take over completely
00:48 Hopefully there will be a viable fork if Microsoft does something predatory. In the vein of embrace, extend, and extinguish.
00:48 If they are subtile enough it will never be problematic enough to create the incentive of a fork to try to keep monopoly. And do things boiling frog style.
00:49 Hopefully there will never be a "business opportunity" to monetize docker and the sales at Azure will be enough as well as having devs not switching to Linux anymore due to having now most nice stuff on Windows.
00:50 dcook There are already business opportunities for monetizing Docker and so far so good I think
00:50 Most of the core things should be open as well
00:51 Funny enough Red Hat's Podman is a drop-in replacement for Docker
00:51 I think Podman is actually supposed to be better than Docker. There have been times I've thought of trying it out
00:59 tuxayo > Most of the core things should be open as well
00:59 There are non-core things that can become very prevalent and an obstacle if needing to migrate. Hopefully nothing like that get will prevalent in the industry.
00:59 Given there didn't seems to be mass migration from mongoDB and elasticsearch when they effectively became non libre as a whole, that looks like a real risk.
00:59 Good to know about Podman, thanks.
00:59 dcook That's true. That is a worry that I have too
01:00 I think it's one reason why I haven't pushed to use Docker in prod beyond times where it's been the only choice
01:02 I'd forgotten that Kubernetes stopped using Docker a while ago. It can use Docker images which are just OCI images I think..
01:02 tuxayo Maybe just using it as a light VM and for the propositioning using Ansible would make the thing pretty safe since it could be swapped with even LXD
01:03 Ah great no need to even give up on Kubernetes
01:03 dcook Yeah lots of different tools for working with containers
01:04 tuxayo (Assuming LXD and podman comply with OCI)
01:04 dcook Can't speak to LXD but Podman does
01:05 What we call Docker images are really OCI images, and they're widely supported
01:05 So I think overall it'd be OK
01:06 Looks like LXD doesn't though
01:06 But I think if we need to jump ship then we do that when the time comes. Rolling with the punches... getting with the times... etc
01:09 tuxayo > and for the propositioning using Ansible would make the thing pretty safe
01:09 Oh and that also avoids the issue of prebuild images. I'm not sure most production deployments of apps rebuild their images. It's another version of downloading and running binaries from the internet. Only without touching the host OS.
01:10 > Looks like LXD doesn't though
01:10 Oh :(
01:14 > if we need to jump ship then we do that when the time comes
01:14 It's not the same effort if having many hours of provisioning work coded in docker instead of Ansible. That's a choice for every project.
01:14 And on a wider scale, Podman has to exist and Kubernetes to support it. There needed to be enough people using (and continuing to use) and making these alternatives so everyone has those lifeboats if needed.
01:16 dcook Yeah we got to keep our eyes and ears open
01:16 The work involved in making things work with Docker is generally useful work anyway
01:17 tuxayo > we got to keep our eyes and ears open
01:17 speaking of that, I found this: https://katacontainers.io/
01:18 dcook Yeah the name is familiar but I can't remember why
01:20 So I have this system that I run in a VM in prod, but locally I run it on Docker
01:20 And I've developed services for it that locally I'll run in separate containers
01:20 But they can easily run on the same VM too
01:21 tuxayo > The work involved in making things work with Docker is generally useful work anyway
01:21 Indeed there is a lot. Though I wonder how hard it's to empty an existing dockerfile and to migrate the stuff to ansible, salt or something else.
01:21 dcook By architecting it to work in containers, I just made it easy to manage its config and dependencies
01:21 tuxayo nice :D
01:21 dcook Ideally your Dockerfile shouldn't be that big
01:21 If it is, it should probably have more things put into scripts
01:22 tuxayo Isn't declarative syntax better for a fair share of cases compared to scripts?
01:23 dcook Depends on what you're trying/needing to do
01:23 https://gitlab.com/koha-commun[…]le?ref_type=heads
01:23 tuxayo Wait, dockefile are more just like scripts than declarative stuff?
01:24 dcook Ansible and Docker aren't really trying to solve the same problems
01:25 tuxayo Right, it's more like scripts. I don't know why I had an idea closer to a declarative paradigm. Maybe because of the logic of destroying and building from scratch a clean thing that docker and ansible allow to do.
01:27 dcook: QA question, should we prefer to have default values in the constructor rather than in the function? When possible, like seemingly here:
01:27 https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]54680&action=diff
01:27 vs part of the changes could be here:
01:27 https://git.koha-community.org[…]Patroncard.pm#L74
01:27 I don't know enough about which Perl good practices we should try to care about beyond our mandatory guidelines.
01:29 dcook Yeah always a tough one eh
01:30 In theory, defaults in the constructor, but then Perl lets you mess with things, so sometimes it feels safer doing it in the function where no one else could mess with it
01:31 tcohen[m] Constructor. And check+exceptions for bad ones
01:38 tuxayo > In theory, defaults in the constructor
01:38 Good, same a other langs :)
01:38 *as
01:39 tcohen: hola :)
01:39 > Constructor
01:39 So in this case I should do a follow-up a continue the review.
01:39 tcohen[m] We need to short circuit early if possible. On such deeply nested code as Koha's, tracking down where things come from is challenging.
01:39 tuxayo "for bad ones" what do you mean?
01:40 s/a/and/
01:40 tcohen[m] I should be sleeping so lacking some context. But yeah. Default where it makes sense, explode where it makes sense, so devs have tools to understand what they need to do
01:40 * dcook thumbs up
01:40 dcook Why are you're you sleeping, tcohen[m]?
01:41 aren't*
01:41 "Why are you not sleeping"*
01:41 Jeez maybe I should go back to bed...
01:41 tcohen[m] Hi both. Interested in reading the containers talk tomorrow morning
01:41 * dcook is always down to talk about containers
01:42 tcohen[m] Good night!
01:42 dcook night!
01:44 tuxayo tcohen good night, thanks for passing by :)
01:54 dcook: thanks for the update on the world of containers ^^ And the QA advice. I'll make a follow-up for setting the default in the constructor. The rest of the changes seems to be using intermediate variables for calculations in various steps instead of a long one. + reuse of a value. So good stuff.
02:19 see you another day all :)
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06:25 marcelr hi #koha
06:26 lmstrand joined #koha
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06:39 cait joined #koha
06:54 magnuse \o/
06:54 marcelr o/
07:03 dcook hola hola
07:03 and ciao ciao
07:08 * cait waves
07:17 magnuse ciao dcook
08:04 thomas63[m] hi there... (full message at <https://matrix.org/_matrix/med[…]mdHjhHSHDgOebIeJu>)
08:09 Joubu bug 34683
08:09 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34683 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, In Discussion , The DB upgrade process is not tested
08:10 Joubu thomas63[m]: the selectors you want are .navbar and #header_search
08:10 (if you are running a recent version of Koha)
08:17 PedroAmorim[m] morning o/
08:24 aroussos Good morning PedroAmorim[m]
08:25 PedroAmorim[m]: Thank you for the speedy SO on Bug 31964
08:25 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31964 normal, P5 - low, ---, a.roussos, Signed Off , Missing manpage for koha-z3950-responder
08:25 aroussos PedroAmorim[m]++
08:25 thomas63[m] Joubu: thanks a lot, works!
08:28 marcelr hi PedroAmorim[m]
08:28 * cait waves some more
08:33 marcelr hi cait
08:34 thomas63[m] Joubu: one more keyword please… for the breadcrumbs menu
08:40 paulderscheid[m] @later tell tcohen I'd like to test your ktd testing branch just by working, should I expect anything catastrophic? :D
08:40 huginn paulderscheid[m]: The operation succeeded.
08:40 Joubu thomas63[m]: in your browser you can open the developper tools and inspect the structure of the page
08:41 that will help you find the class/id you want
08:41 The breadcrumbs is contained into the element with id="sub-header"
08:53 cait Joubu++
09:34 PedroAmorim[m] Easy bugs to test that need QA:... (full message at <https://matrix.org/_matrix/med[…]OlbrwnsMZUfTGLDoA>)
09:48 marcelr not found..
09:49 but we have 160 to go
09:49 that is 30 lower than this morning btw
09:50 cait marcelr++
09:50 stuck on wriing some specification here .(
09:51 marcelr Joubu++
09:52 Joubu only picking the easy ones to lower the number..
09:52 marcelr cheating :)
09:53 i have only enh in the so queue and they dont seem to move much nowadays
09:53 not talking about getting a so
09:54 see you later #koha
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10:35 oleonard Hi #koha
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11:13 PedroAmorim[m] \o
11:14 tcohen[m] hola #koha o/
11:22 cait can someone tell if we have an API route for old checkouts?
11:22 as in... am I missing it or is it not there yet?
11:25 Joubu cait: there is a checked_in flag you can pass
11:25 cait hm to which route?
11:25 Joubu checkouts
11:25 tcohen[m] Exactly
11:25 cait aha!
11:26 thx :)
11:26 and then I an use x-query to limit to a patron_id - right?
11:26 Joubu https://api.koha-community.org[…]stBiblioCheckouts
11:26 checked_in
11:26 boolean
11:26 By default, current checkouts are returned, when this is true then checked in checkouts are returned as result.
11:26 cait i think then I am onyl missing self registration and address change requests
11:31 because both are moderated, verification email etc.... need their own thing
11:37 have a great weekend all!
11:37 and Joubu++
11:37 cait left #koha
11:37 tcohen[m] an admin endpoint for doing it from a third party service?
11:38 oleonard Joubu++
11:38 Thanks for the QA work!
11:47 Joubu oleonard: thank you for the nice patches!
11:47 tcohen[m]: seen bug 34683?
11:47 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34683 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, In Discussion , The DB upgrade process is not tested
12:35 oleonard tcohen: Your issue_396 ktd branch didn't make Elasticsearch magically work on my Intel Mac ;)
12:47 tcohen[m] without it, it works, right?
12:47 I have an intel mac and hove no issues
12:47 oleonard I don't think I've ever gotten ES to work on my Mac
12:48 tcohen[m] buy an M2
12:48 haha
12:48 let me take a look at my intel one
12:49 * oleonard will wait as long as possible to replace his 27" iMac now that they're not making them anymore :(
12:49 tcohen[m] keep it forever!
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12:57 oleonard Joubu: Regarding Bug 32890, is it only the "delivered today" tab that is incorrect?
12:57 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32890 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Signed Off , Add DataTables to curbside pickups
12:59 tcohen[m] oleonard: have you done a ktd --es7 pull recently
13:00 Joubu oleonard: I don't know, it's Friday afternoon :D I remember that this was a nightmare to make it ordered correctly.
13:00 caroline is the one who knows! :D
13:01 oleonard Okay XD
13:02 caroline I know everything!! lol
13:02 I can't even remember what I did yesterday...
13:04 oleonard I'd completely forgotten I'd written a patch for Bug 34135 until Joubu QA'd it
13:04 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34135 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Passed QA , Show the icons for selected tab to the left of the search bar in the staff interface
13:05 oleonard In fact during one of the KohaCon sessions someone pointed out a bug that was bothering them and I thought, "I'll bet we can fix that" Turns out I'd already submitted a patch!
13:05 tcohen[m] PQA push fest starting once I take a screenshot
13:06 * tcohen[m] uploaded an image: (1164KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/med[…]RZixrXH/image.png >
13:06 uploaded an image: (793KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/med[…]euhKfkk/image.png >
13:07 uploaded an image: (199KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/med[…]hXZzFgZ/image.png >
13:18 caroline re bug 32890, it seems I had already asked that it be a datatable with a default order in bug 32883... at least I'm consistent ;)
13:18 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32890 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, Signed Off , Add DataTables to curbside pickups
13:18 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=32883 normal, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, RESOLVED FIXED, Curbside pickups - Order "To be staged" by date and time of scheduled pickup
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13:33 Joubu yes, caroline, that's why you opened 32890 ;)
14:50 aude_c[m] caroline++ for her help with Documentation management tasks
14:58 KodoKorkalo[m] help! bulkmarcimport messes up my character encodings!
14:59 it used to work fine on the previous version of Koha but in 22.11 my i get mess with characters like å, ä, ö
14:59 s/my//
15:00 the nice thing is that we're on our production conversion here 😄
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15:01 KodoKorkalo[m] it seems that the characters on the first record are correct, but starting from the second they get all messed up
15:28 oleonard KodoKorkalo[m]: I don't use bulkmarcimport but when I get that problem with a file I've imported via the GUI it usually means the encoding I picked didn't match the encoding of the file
15:28 KodoKorkalo[m]: MARC8 vs. UTF-8 for instance
15:28 KodoKorkalo[m] nope, the file is utf-8
15:29 strange, it works on my dev-koha 😄
15:30 same koha ja same data, different result
15:30 ja=and 😄
15:34 jalway KodoKorkalo[m]: Have you run it through the MARC Validator in MARCEdit?
15:36 KodoKorkalo[m] jalway nope, but I have validated the XML with libxml
15:37 jalway in addition we have a monsterous script that does all kinds of things to MARC data prior to import (including different checks and validation), but that doesn't seem to be the problem either and it works on my dev machine afterall 😄
15:38 jalway Are your dev machine and production machines on the same version?
15:40 KodoKorkalo[m] jalway yep, they seem to be
15:41 jalway Are you using Unimarc?
15:41 KodoKorkalo[m] jalway nope, MARC21
15:42 hmm... i think it might be one of out own patches that breaks it
15:43 the version on my dev-machine is pretty much clean community-koha without the "local" patches
15:45 jalway That sounds like a place to start. I'm not seeing any bugs relating to bulkmarcimport in koha's bugzilla. Doesn't mean there isn't, but as you say it works in your dev environment.
15:45 KodoKorkalo[m] yep, it must be one of our own patches, i'll talk to my collagues on monday about this
15:46 thanks for your help and time jalway 🙂
15:46 and oleonard too
15:48 jalway KodoKorkalo[m]: My pleasure!
16:05 PedroAmorim[m] filed bug 34694 I think this is a critical bug if some more people can also take a quick look at
16:06 huginn 04Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=34694 critical, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , OPAC bib record blows up with error 500
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22:25 Laura joined #koha
22:26 Guest1481 hola a todos, soy Laura de Argentina y estoy preparando un trabajo sobre Koha
23:45 tcohen[m] Buen fin de semana, Guest1481

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