IRC log for #koha, 2012-01-04

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time	Nick	Message
00:00	wizzyrea	there has to be a joke in there somewhere
00:01		that shark got pwnt.
00:01	rangi	yup
00:30		Brooke joined #koha
00:30	Brooke	o/
00:30		the sharks are plotting revenge though
00:30		http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.co[…]tralia/?hpt=hp_c2
00:31		but does this mean that when fighting an orca, one SHOULD fight like an octopus?
00:34		@later tell Oak Camille Claudel (1988)
00:34	huginn	Brooke: The operation succeeded.
00:55	rangi	http://www.freesoftwaremagazin[…]orchestra_january
00:55		very cool
01:16		melia left #koha
01:23		si joined #koha
03:10	bag	evening #koha
03:22		AmitG joined #koha
03:30	AmitG	heya bga
03:30		heya bag
03:30	bag	heya AmitG
04:39		cait joined #koha
04:41		kmkale joined #koha
04:43	cait	hi #koha
04:43	eythian	hi cait
04:44	cait	hi eythian :)
05:11		eek rain
05:11		@wunder Konstanz
05:11	huginn	cait: The current temperature in Konstanz, Germany is 7.0°C (6:00 AM CET on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 84%. Dew Point: 5.0°C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014 hPa (Falling).
05:27		hdl joined #koha
07:06	magnuse	kia ora #koha!
07:10	cait	uh
07:11	magnuse	huh?
07:11	* cait	is missing OPACItemHolds
07:14	bag	try searching for it
07:14		;)
07:14	cait	ok
07:14	bag	hardy har har
07:14	cait	found it
07:14		or found the reason
07:14	bag	noice
07:15		hey what up magnuse
07:15	magnuse	yo bag
07:15		just checking in to work...
07:15	cait	and hi bag, morning magnuse :)
07:15	bag	just checking out - with a nice mixed drink ;)
07:15	magnuse	yay
07:16	bag	ah I'll be here for awhile I've got to program some acquistions migrations scripts for a SD migration :(
07:16	magnuse	ooh, sounds like fun
07:17	bag	totally!
07:17	magnuse	especially if you just realized you have to do it before you can leave
07:21	bag	heh
07:22	alex_a	hello
07:22		alex_a joined #koha
07:22	alex_a	hello
07:23	bag	hi there alex_a
07:23		mtj?
07:23	wahanui	DeM KraZy NutZ!!
07:23	bag	love it ;)
07:25	cait	@seen mtj
07:25	huginn	cait: mtj was last seen in #koha 5 days, 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <mtj> ooh, Devel::CoverReport looks to do the magic there
07:28	bag	@seen kados
07:28	huginn	bag: I have not seen kados.
07:28	bag	HA
07:28		;)
07:29		@seen brendan
07:29	huginn	bag: brendan was last seen in #koha 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 37 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <brendan> @wunder 93109
07:29	bag	wow that's weird
07:29		I'm only off my 37 minutes and 13 seconds
07:30		but last year at this time… I was in a way way different place. Long live Koha 3.4 :) - my most favorite verison of koha
07:37		AmitG_ joined #koha
07:42		cait left #koha
07:48		reiveune joined #koha
07:49	reiveune	hello
07:49	wahanui	salut, reiveune
07:57		julian_m joined #koha
07:57	matts	hi
08:00		francharb joined #koha
08:01	francharb	hello
08:01	wahanui	what's up, francharb
08:03	bag	hi francharb
08:03		paul_p joined #koha
08:03	paul_p	good morning #koha
08:03	magnuse	bonjour france!
08:04	bag	heya paul_p
08:05	paul_p	hi bag. Very early (or late) for you isn't it ?
08:05		hello magnuse
08:05	bag	it's late :)
08:05	paul_p	waiting for Iowa results or the IRC meeting ?
08:06	bag	heh - not the Iowa results
08:06		but I think they are in now
08:07	paul_p	and the winner is ? (at 8AM here they said XX, by 34 votes, and at 8:30 they said romney by 8 votes)
08:10		asaurat joined #koha
08:15		kf joined #koha
08:15	kf	good morning #koha
08:15	asaurat	hi!
08:16	kf	hi asaurat :)
08:19	magnuse	looks like romney by 8 votes
08:19	kf	?
08:20	magnuse	preparations for us elections...
08:20	kf	oh
08:23	paul_p	magnuse, not just preparation: the vote of Iowa for the republican candidate choose
08:23	kf	bonjour paul_p :)
08:24	paul_p	hello kf
08:25	AmitG	heya paul_p, kf
08:25	bag	night all
08:26	magnuse	good night bag
08:26	kf	good night bag
08:26		hi AmitG
08:39		Guillaume1 joined #koha
09:22		Brooke joined #koha
09:22	Brooke	0/
09:23	magnuse	\o
09:23	kf	hi Brooke
09:24	Brooke	howdy
09:24		Galen won't let me create a circular dependency! He's so strict if he won't let me do that!
09:25	magnuse	yeah, that's mean ;-)
09:26	Brooke	;)
09:26	magnuse	meeting is in ~30 minutes?
09:27	Brooke	a yep
09:27	magnuse	good thing our designated driver is present and accounted for then!
09:28	Brooke	heh
09:28		I just agreed to be a bus driver
09:28		never said I was sober :P
09:28		in fact, the French made me chair after gin.
09:29	magnuse	yay for the french!
09:29	Brooke	@later tell druthb http://www.xkcd.com/
09:29	huginn	Brooke: The operation succeeded.
09:35	Brooke	death to C4 by lingering nomenclature poison
09:39	kf	hm
09:39		anyone an idea about the alert and notifys tables? are those used for anything?
09:48		ColinC joined #koha
09:48		thd joined #koha
09:50		kmkale joined #koha
09:53		julian_m joined #koha
09:54	julian_m	hi #koha
09:54	Brooke	hi there
09:55		mbalmer joined #koha
09:55	mbalmer	meeting started yet?
09:55	Brooke	nope
09:55		they'd throttle me if I started 5 min early
09:56	* Brooke	has tried. ;)
09:56	mbalmer	ok, np then. I am here ..
09:56		jwagner joined #koha
09:56	* Brooke	is jonesin for a new First Monday
09:57	slef	morning
09:57	kf	hi slef :)
09:57	paul_p	hello & good (early) morning USA !
09:57	kf	happy new year :)
09:57	paul_p	happynew year slef
09:57	slef	happy new year everyone
09:58	mbalmer	hny to every1!
09:58	clrh	hello all :)
09:58	Brooke	it's never to early for mimosas, Paul ;)
09:58	asaurat	hello all and happy new year :)
09:59	thd	Brooke: Who is "jones" and what is "First Monday"?
10:00	Brooke	#startmeeting
10:00	huginn	Meeting started Wed Jan 4 10:00:01 2012 UTC. The chair is Brooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
10:00		Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
10:00	Brooke	#topic Introductions
10:00		Topic for #koha is now Introductions
10:00	kf	#info Katrin Fischer, BSZ Germany
10:00	kmkale	#info Koustubha Kale Anant Corporation, India
10:00	magnuse	#info Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
10:00	Brooke	Haere Mai welcome to the Koha Community Meeting feel free to introduce yourself with #info
10:00	paul_p	#info Paul Poulain, France, 3.8 Release Manager
10:00	jwagner	#info Jane Wagner, LibLime/PTFS
10:00	thd	#info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
10:00	ColinC	#info Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe, UK
10:00	slef	#info MJ Ray, the http://software.coop's liaison to http://koha-community.org
10:01	mbalmer	#info Marc Balmer, micro systems, CH, NetBSD committer, X.Org committer, Basel, Switzerland
10:01	clrh	#info Claire, BibLibre, MArseille France
10:01	asaurat	#info Adrien Saurat, BibLibre, France
10:01	julian_m	#info Julian Maurice, BibLibre, Marseille, France
10:01		Joubu joined #koha
10:02	Joubu	#info Joubu Jonathan Druart. BibLibre FR
10:02	matts	#info Matthias Meusburger, BibLibre, Sélestat, France
10:02	Joubu	hello
10:03		davidnind joined #koha
10:03	Brooke	neat someone stuck announcements on the agenda
10:04	paul_p	no one from NZ ? you're all sleeping already ?
10:04	Brooke	#topic Announcements
10:04		Topic for #koha is now Announcements
10:04	Brooke	anyone?
10:04	slef	is KohaCon its own item?
10:04	paul_p	yes, i've one: it's sunny in Marseille ;-)
10:04	* slef	plays hunt the agenda
10:05	Brooke	yes it is slef
10:05	slef	paul_p: send the sun North, please!
10:05	paul_p	(and more sunny in March, so come here for the hackfest :D )
10:05	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]g,_4_January_2012
10:05	slef	magnuse: ta. Just found it :)
10:05	Brooke	on a serious note, we didn't get the DML grant, but that's no surprise given how hostile their attachment thingy was
10:05	mbalmer	my own announcement would be support for PostgreSQL, but that is already a point on the agenda
10:05	slef	DML?
10:05	Brooke	and also that submission was over KohaCon
10:05		the achievement thing
10:05		mebbe try next year, mebbe not
10:06		yeah stop hoppin the agenda :P
10:06	slef	Hrm, too much eggnog for me, clearly.
10:06	Brooke	#topic Roadmap to 3.4
10:06		Topic for #koha is now Roadmap to 3.4
10:06	Brooke	update on old stuff anyone?
10:07	paul_p	chris_n is not here, I suspect we won't have any update
10:07	kf	I think he published some dates to the mailing list
10:08	Brooke	k consult el mailing list
10:08	kf	[Koha-devel] 3.4.8 Release Timeline Update
10:08	Brooke	and I'm thinking that might affect the next point too but hey
10:08		#Topic Roadmap to 3.6
10:08		Topic for #koha is now Roadmap to 3.6
10:09	kf	26th december: string freeze on 8th, release on 14th january
10:09		for 3.4.8
10:10	Brooke	kk
10:10		#topic Roadmap to 3.8
10:10		Topic for #koha is now Roadmap to 3.8
10:10	slef	#info the Roadmap to 3.4 and Roadmap to 3.6 wiki pages need updating to reflect current release maintenance
10:10	Brooke	take it away Paul
10:10	paul_p	well, I've sent my monthly RM newsletter, where i've already written many things.
10:11		there is a lot of traffic. It seems the process of signing-QAing-pushing goes faster and faster, even if some patches stay stuck for a long period
10:11		mostly that's those who are hard/long to test
10:11	magnuse	#link http://lists.koha-community.or[…]ember/036711.html
10:12	paul_p	otherwise, i'm working on my sandbox testing mechanism those days. I've something that start to work
10:12		I may open something soon, for some volunteers who could be candidate to test
10:12	* Brooke	will guinea pig for that.
10:12	kf	in general it would be great to see more different people signing off
10:13		some of the patches stuck in queue are hard to test without reading the code/looking at the code too
10:13	paul_p	another topic: we plan to have BibLibre dev team dedicating half of his time to Koha (4 persons).
10:13		that will be dedicated to submitting our acquisition/serials/solR work to mainstream
10:13	magnuse	yay!
10:14	clrh	(Joubu: julian_m matts and me)
10:14	slef	I'm still a bit confused about 3.6/3.8/master.
10:14	Brooke	how so?
10:14	slef	First of all, when should I tag a bug rel_3_8 and when master?
10:14	paul_p	slef, could you explain ?
10:15	thd	paul_p: What does the BibLibre development team do when not working on Koha?
10:15	slef	Brooke: I can't type that fast :)
10:15	paul_p	thd, BibLibre funded stuff ;-)
10:15	kf	does the koha work include sign-offs and testing?
10:15	paul_p	I answer to SLEF
10:15	thd	paul_p: Is that not funded for Koha in reality or eventuality?
10:15	paul_p	slef: if you declare a bug, please declare it against the version you get it (3.6)
10:16	Brooke	@quote add paul_p "I answer to SLEF"
10:16	huginn	Brooke: The operation succeeded. Quote #174 added.
10:16	slef	paul_p: I'll nearly always have confirmed it against master.
10:16	paul_p	slef: if it's an ENH, declare it against master. when the patch is submitted/pushed, I (as RM) will tag it to rel_3_8 or rel_3_6
10:16		depending on if it's to be backported to 3.6 or will be in 3.8
10:17		SO :
10:17	slef	paul_p: not usually an ENH
10:17	paul_p	slef, small ENH are pushed in rel_3_6 by chris_n if they apply and don't change the workflow/display
10:17		so:
10:17		* rel_3_6 => the patch will be in 3.6 or is in 3.6
10:18		* master => the patch has not be merged, and we don't know in which version it will be merged
10:18		* rel_3_8 => should be used only by me when pushing to say "it's for 3.8"
10:18	slef	paul_p: so what in my example case? Bug (not ENH) reported to me against 3.6 which I confirm is still present is master, but I feel should be fixed in a 3.8 release? => master?
10:19		paul_p: in other words, mortals should not use the rel_3_8 version?
10:19	paul_p	slef, "mortals" should not use rel_3_8 (but, breaking news, i'm mortal too ;-) )
10:19	slef	paul_p: yeah but you've temporary super cow powers.
10:19	paul_p	in your example, you should use 3.6, and you can use master
10:20		(if you use master i'll update to rel_3_6 when pushing the patch)
10:20		sound clear ?
10:20	slef	why should use 3.6? In the example, the bug is still in master.
10:20		s/still/also
10:20	paul_p	slef, yes, but the workflow is to submit bugs against the version where it's detected.
10:21	thd	paul_p: The better translation from the Greek is supposedly "liable to death". However, death should be illegal. Please let us have no fatal accidents.
10:21	Brooke	#info submit bugs against the version where you detect it
10:22	paul_p	#info if you detect a bug in 3.6, declare it rel_3_6. If you don't know, or if it's an ENHancement, use master
10:22	slef	paul_p: I've detected it in both, so I'd intuitively thought it should be reported against the latest applicable and then the fix will spread backwards.
10:22	kf	as paul_p mentioned the sign-off process - I would like to talk about that once paul_p is finished answering slef's question
10:22	slef	Anyway, that clears that one up even if it's counter-intuitive to me. Thanks. My other confusion is how do I tell which public-reported bugs are from 3.6 and which are from master? I think master now reports a 3.6 version number.
10:22	paul_p	#info rel_3_8 is used by the Release Manager when pushing a patch that will, then, be in 3.8 once it's released
10:23	slef	kf: oops, sorry!
10:23	kf	slef: no reason :)
10:23	paul_p	slef, yep, and that's a mistake (from me) i'll fix (vey) soon. We had a long (private) discussion about that with rangi & chris_n
10:23	slef	paul_p: ok, temporary problem. Cool. Thanks.
10:23	paul_p	I have to summarize everything and send a mail to koha-devel
10:23		mle joined #koha
10:24	paul_p	kf, your question ?
10:24	kf	not a question
10:24		but I want to remind people to look at patches
10:24	paul_p	thd, about your question = yes, our halftime include signof & testing, of course
10:24	kf	signing off can not only be done by a few people / bug wranglers
10:24	slef	#info Koha master/dev versions reporting 3.6.x version numbers is a temporary problem which will be fixed. Email to koha-devel soon.
10:24	kf	it's a task too big for a few people and very important
10:25	paul_p	kf++
10:25	Brooke	#help as always, we need more people to help with signoffs, and kf promised to bake for you *notintendedasafactualstatement
10:25	kf	so please, if everyone here would sign off one bug a week, or look at it, coment, add information
10:25	paul_p	and we will submit in the next months a lot of changes to acquisition & serials, so we will need everybody help here !
10:25	kf	we could move much faster
10:26	Brooke	I should hope a working sandbox will speed this up cait :)
10:26	paul_p	I really hope too !
10:26	kf	I am not sure it will
10:26		I think people here could work without sandboxes easily
10:26		the problem is making time for it and doing it
10:26	Brooke	some of it
10:26	wahanui	some of it is foolish pride
10:26	paul_p	#info Paul is working on sandbox system and should have something in the next weeks. That will help librarians testing patches
10:27	mle	#info Matthew Edmondson, software.coop/Project Manager (apologies for latenesss)
10:27	paul_p	kf, yes and no : the problem is also having a git setup with at least a few git skills
10:27	Brooke	but if it moved into pick up work at a Library, folks that don't usually code could contribute to the effort :)
10:27	clrh	sandboxes should help, everything that automate things helps but right, we need time and people ;)
10:27	paul_p	I really want to have more librarians involved
10:27	Brooke	paul_p++
10:27	kf	paul_p: I think it's not up to librarians to do all of the job
10:27	Brooke	(not that Cait is not a Librarian)
10:27	kf	developers have to do it too
10:28	paul_p	and I mean true librarians, those that will never learn "git bz apply 1234"
10:28	thd	paul_p++ more librarians
10:28	kf	I mean we have to split time
10:28		between writing new features (which is always more fun) and looking at the code of others
10:28	mbalmer	#info we are setting up a group with two librarians, one content guy and one tech guy
10:28	kf	it's give and take
10:28	paul_p	kf, agreed
10:28	Brooke	I think it's important not to feel overwhelmed and rushed as a dev
10:28	paul_p	well, we will see how the sandbox works & is welcomed by volunteers !
10:28	thd	paul_p: True librarians should also learn git, even if that would not be necessary for all.
10:29	paul_p	s/welcomed/use/
10:29		thd, in France, if librarian were 1st all learning english, I would be very happy.
10:29	Brooke	ha!
10:29	paul_p	thinking they could learn git ... no...
10:29	mbalmer	mince ;)
10:29	asaurat	we should all switch to latin
10:29	paul_p	mbalmer, you speak french ?
10:30	Brooke	asaurat++
10:30	kf	paul_p: I think we shouldn't start the discussison again about what librarians can or not can do ;)
10:30	slef	bah, you francophobe paul_p ;)
10:30	mbalmer	mais oui
10:30	paul_p	kf++
10:30		any more question about 3.8 ?
10:30	* magnuse	has been working on a script to help make testing/signing off easier - improvements welcome https://github.com/MagnusEnger/kohatesting
10:30	thd	paul_p: I try learning a little French to meet them a little way. :)
10:31	slef	eh bon, nous choisons français comme langue official koha-community?
10:31	asaurat	:D
10:31	paul_p	je suis d'accord !
10:31	* slef	pardonpetas
10:31	kf	oh
10:31	Brooke	no!
10:31	kf	and as we talked about testing
10:31		GBSD is on friday!
10:31	Brooke	Lingua Latina :P
10:31	mbalmer	what is GBSD?
10:31	wahanui	rumour has it GBSD is Global Bug Squashing Day
10:31	Brooke	anyhow
10:31		moving on to the nerd fight
10:31	kf	so if anyone has problems with testing or questions - I will be around and can answer questions (to my best knowledge)
10:31	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]bug_squashing_day
10:31	slef	wahanui++ for a useful contribution for a change
10:31	mbalmer	ah, not another BSD...
10:31	paul_p	kf, yep, GSBDing on all BibLibre friday agenda
10:32	Brooke	#topic Running Koha on PostgreSQL
10:32		Topic for #koha is now Running Koha on PostgreSQL
10:32	mbalmer	I have two goals which would like to be goals of the community:
10:32		1 Let Koha users run Koha on PostgreSQL
10:33		2 Help developers write proper SQL code that runs on both MySQL and PostgreSQL
10:33		1 will be achieved through 2
10:33	thd	mbalmer++
10:33	Brooke	step 3 profit?
10:33	dpavlin	mbalmer++
10:33	mbalmer	I think a shim layer is needed that produces some of the SQL code.
10:33	thd	Step 2 is the difficult part.
10:34	mbalmer	I did a code "audit" and identified already many problematic spots. Some of the SQL code is just - excuse me - horrid ;) But easy to fix.
10:34	paul_p	mbalmer, would you be able to write a wiki page with incompatibilities ?
10:34		like ` iirc
10:34	mbalmer	I already started that page.
10:34	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/PostgreSQL
10:34	thd	mbalmer: "shim"?
10:35	mbalmer	and I already started to write the abstraction layer.
10:35		shim as in as small as possible and as little overhead as possible.
10:35	clrh	mbalmer: great, could you share it?
10:35	slef	there must be other pages out there already. We are not the first project to move from mysql to multiple sqlds
10:35	magnuse	isn't there some pre-existing code that can be used?
10:35	mbalmer	no.
10:35	clrh	because we begin to really think about this work
10:35	ColinC	yes we dont want to reinvent
10:36	mbalmer	and it is not needed. it easy, if you understand the database stuff right..
10:36	paul_p	mbalmer, about the abstraction be carefull, it may conflict with general code rewriting (remove C4 !)
10:36	mbalmer	of course I can share.
10:36	clrh	try to think of better code layers and splitting stuffs
10:36	mbalmer	I have a pgsql git branch locally, btw.
10:36		big question NR 1: Is PostgreSQL a goal?
10:36	Brooke	can you #info your git branch if it's amenable?
10:36	mbalmer	If yes, then I can write up some best practices etc. documents
10:37	Brooke	I think interoperability is always a goal
10:37	slef	Brooke: mbalmer: or #link?
10:37	Brooke	but I could be very wrong.
10:37	paul_p	mbalmer, I don't think so, our goal should be to be database agnostic
10:37	mbalmer	Brooke, what do you mean? putting it online?
10:37	Brooke	putting it here if possible so folks that are curious can poke at it
10:37	slef	mbalmer: yes, I think it should be, as a step towards full DB Independence
10:37	mbalmer	paul_p, yes support PostgreSQL as one possibility, of course.
10:38	paul_p	ok, we agree then. And in this case, it's something that must be included in the general process rewrite/refactoring
10:38	mbalmer	but that means that people should stop committing stuff that is MySQL only… At least when a neutral form is easy to accomplish
10:38	paul_p	so not a goal in itself, just a consequence of a "refactoring for more performance/stability/portability"
10:39	mbalmer	that is why started a page with SQL idioms, MySQL form, PostgreSQL form, neutral form.
10:39	Brooke	mm hmm
10:39	paul_p	mbalmer, it's something for QA, if you can write guidelines, then that would be a good start !
10:39	mbalmer	A neutral form is not always possible, that is way that SQL layer is needed.
10:39	paul_p	mbalmer, you could even write a test, like complaining if you detect CURDATE() somewhere !
10:39		s/test/unit test/
10:39	magnuse	unit_tests++
10:40	thd	mbalmer: There is certainly some code which is not reducible to standard SQL.
10:40	mbalmer	so you all agree that supporting PostgreSQL, in addition to MySQL, is a viable goal?
10:40		thd, exactly.
10:40	paul_p	mbalmer, yep
10:41	mbalmer	but I think a way can be found to make such code work on MySQL _AND_ PostgreSQL by dynamically producing the SQL code in an optimal form for the respective database.
10:41	clrh	at BibLibre, we have a hook "pre-cpommit" we use to filter bad practice before git commit, it helps
10:41	thd	mbalmer: One very radical idea is to not use SQL at all for some problems which are not reducible to standard SQL.
10:41	clrh	and we should have a list of good practices of what touse and what avoid
10:41	paul_p	mbalmer, joubu is sitted just on my right, so you've already 2 members of the QA team that are OK to check SQL if they have directions to do so !
10:41	magnuse	clrh++
10:42	thd	mbalmer++ dynamically generated code
10:42	clrh	what to use
10:42	mbalmer	I can start such a document. I have very long experience in the database area. And I still think the Koha database is not too complex.
10:42	Brooke	the goal is not to support Eurasia or Eastasia
10:42		the goal is to support all options possible
10:42	ColinC	Surely the good practice is to factor out the sql to a db layer
10:42	clrh	so mbalmer if you can share your best practices, it would be great
10:42		ColinC: we agree too
10:42	mbalmer	Brooke, I agree totally.
10:42	paul_p	Other information: this afternoon, joubu & i have a meeting to list all inconsistencies in the database. We will write a wiki page.
10:42	Brooke	kk just putting that out there
10:43	thd	Brooke: the goal is to support Oceania. ;)
10:43	paul_p	inconsistencies or strange things in DB (from a design point of view)
10:43	mbalmer	If we can factor out the mysqlisms, and psqlisms, we can do the same for virtually ANY database
10:43	Brooke	if you're gonna bother with compatibility might as well bother as much as poss
10:43	clrh	clean layers, no circular dependencies, etc. but it is next subject ;)
10:43	Brooke	thd: I have ate the taro and kumara ;P
10:43		it's not the next subject, but it's coming
10:43	mbalmer	ok. I am fine with the outcome. Thanks!
10:43	Brooke	#topic KohaCon2012
10:43		Topic for #koha is now KohaCon2012
10:44	kf	paul_p++ was writing database documentation today and I think some tables are no longer used
10:44	mbalmer	how many people do usually attend a KohaCon?
10:44	slef	OK. I think mle will scream if I'm wrong, but we're going to release the dates now.
10:44	* slef	looks it up to make sure
10:44	magnuse	ooh!
10:44	paul_p	Brooke, can I say most of us (BibLibre) don't understand half of your sentences ?
10:45		I have ate the taro and kumara => ??
10:45	Brooke	paul_p that's true of everywhere
10:45		slef said support oceania
10:45		I ate well when there, bro
10:45	slef	#info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
10:46	mbalmer	where?
10:46	Brooke	hooray for dates
10:46	paul_p	slef++
10:46		hooray for dates !
10:46	slef	#info That's in central Edinburgh
10:46	kf	slef++ mle++
10:46	mbalmer	oh, cool!
10:46	slef	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ategory:KohaCon12
10:46	magnuse	slef++ mle++
10:47	kf	slef: will you send a mail to the list too?
10:48	jwagner	slef, when will you be asking for presenters?
10:48	mle	: )
10:48	slef	#info the wiki will be updated RSN (please help), the list emailed this week, some sort of sponsorship drive started this month and registrations taken
10:48	mbalmer	slef, I could to a DB releated talk, about how to, what to, what not to, and so on.
10:48	slef	jwagner: after we've contacted the volunteers
10:49	paul_p	slef, do you plan to organize a trip like in NZ ?
10:49	slef	We will give preference to things that appear on the Wishlist (and haven't been added by their presenter ;-) )
10:50		paul_p: I intend to, but at this point it is only an intention. We will prioritise organising the conference.
10:50	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ist_for_KohaCon12
10:50	paul_p	slef, of course, but the trip Auckland=> Wellington was so great that I would be very happy to do London=>Edinburg as well !
10:51	mbalmer	norther scotland whisky trails ;)
10:51	asaurat	a fishing session on Loch Ness
10:51	slef	paul_p: ah, I was meaning the Friday off. I'd like to do a road trip too, if there is interest.
10:52	paul_p	slef, you can consider there is an interest from BibLibre (for a roadtrip)
10:53		(+ for the friday off trip, of course)
10:53	slef	paul_p: could someone from BL add a sign-up/interest list to the wiki, please? Just who to contact and how many seats?
10:54	Brooke	#help now that we have dates and junk start adding things to the wiki
10:54	mle	inital fishing enquiries suggest its expensive near edinburgh
10:54	asaurat	I fish with my bare hands
10:55	Brooke	asaurat++
10:55	asaurat	but well, a road trip is fine too ;)
10:55	slef	#action add initial interest/sign-up lists for conference, hackfest, road trip and Friday social to the wiki Category:KohaCon12
10:55	ColinC	guggling in Scotland
10:55	thd	slef: What are your plans to fish for defeating the expense problem?
10:55	slef	mle: any answer to thd?
10:56		thd: I'm leaving that to mle because he's in that city and I'm not.
10:56	AmitG	heya slef
10:57	* mle	googles guggling : )
10:57	slef	Any other questions, or tips, or whatever?
10:58	mle	thd: we have some ideas, but notheing to announce as yet. : )
10:58	thd	mle: the overall expense of the venue is a most important question.
10:58		mle: The lower the cost the greater the attendance.
10:58	Brooke	are we exhausted on Conference yet?
10:59	mle	thd the expense of the venue is very very affordable
10:59	slef	OK, hearing nothing more...
10:59		#info we look forward to welcoming you in Scotland's capital during the UN International Year of Co-operatives!
10:59	Brooke	#topic Discuss the move from C4 to Koha namespace
10:59		Topic for #koha is now Discuss the move from C4 to Koha namespace
10:59	mle	thd: ++
10:59	thd	mle: Perhaps I was not taking your reference to 'fishing' literally enough.
10:59	Brooke	galen up yet?
11:00	clrh	as I said, we try to thing about koha design and layers
11:00	slef	thd: yeah, some (jcamins?) suggested actual fishing for fish as an activity on the Friday.
11:00	paul_p	s/thing/think/
11:01		was it me that added this topic ? I think so.
11:01	thd	What is in a layer?
11:01		or What layers are there / should there be?
11:02	Brooke	looks like Chris N
11:02	clrh	a layer in app is parts of code that answer to some goals
11:02	paul_p	We spoke a lot of code rewritting, and we (BibLibre) agree it's needed. I think most of us agree on how it should be done (separate business logic/ database for example)
11:02	clrh	thd we talk before about "data layer"
11:02	paul_p	what we need now, I think, is a POC !
11:02	clrh	but there is to "front layer" and surely somthing between
11:03	kf	paul_p: I think thre are some POC
11:03		patches already using a new Koha:: namespace
11:03	paul_p	kf = where ?
11:03		kf that's not a POC !
11:03		a POC is a more general plan on where we want to go
11:03	kf	Ithought it was code showing how something works
11:03		sekjal joined #koha
11:04	magnuse	bug 7359
11:04	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7359 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Begin migration to a new "Koha" namespace from the old "C4" namespace
11:04	clrh	kf we talk about application design, we cant just drop some code lines
11:04	paul_p	kf, yes it is.
11:04	kf	paul_p: plans are different things
11:04	slef	POC is Proof Of Concept
11:04	wahanui	i already had it that way, slef.
11:04	paul_p	kf, i'm not clear
11:05		we must have general directions about where we want to go, then a POC, then patches.
11:05	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]amespace_QA_Rules
11:05	paul_p	I think most of the general directions are in our minds, but written nowhere.
11:05		magnuse, that's a good start, right
11:06	thd	paul_p: I had thought that there was a list. Separating business logic from X always seems much more difficult in practise than in mere contemplation.
11:06	sekjal	#info Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions, QAM foe 3.8 (sorry I'm late, alarmclock malfunction)
11:06	paul_p	thd, we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about that. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon
11:06	kf	paul_p: I think if we take too much time planning, we will not get anywhere - there are already patches implementing something that has been talked about a while ago - why not look at those?
11:06	paul_p	hello sekjal
11:07	kf	if there is disagreement about how things are done there it can be improved, can be used to test the new plan
11:07	paul_p	kf, the patch attached to 7359 contains nothing
11:07		just + './Koha' => 'PERL_MODULE_DIR',
11:07	kf	there are others
11:08		I think hourly loans
11:08		is one of them
11:08	paul_p	kf, patch number ?
11:08	kf	jared did something too for local cover images
11:08	magnuse	7359 was meant as an official starting point and center of discussion for starting moving things into Koha:: namespace, i think
11:09	clrh	kf 5549?
11:09	kf	agreed, so perhaps we can link the other bugs to that
11:09	magnuse	jcamins chenged his patch so it does not use Koha:: after all
11:09	thd	There is a fundamental problem that business logic creeps in or seems especially difficult to abstract just as many things for which we use the database cannot be abstracted to standard SQL alone.
11:09	kf	yes, because there was disagreement about it
11:09		but perhaps we should encourage people working on new features to start using Koha::
11:09	clrh	I think we just don't want to copy C4 into Koha but improve thinks
11:09	magnuse	kf: yup, or rather that it had not been officially discussed/decided
11:10	paul_p	I repeat : we had 2 meetings (at BibLibre) about this refactoring. Joubu even has written a 1st POC that could be shared soon
11:10	clrh	kf yep, I did'nt see it (for links)
11:10	magnuse	clrh++
11:10	Brooke	so then
11:10	paul_p	it's much more than hourly loan example.
11:10	Brooke	if we're looking for official action
11:10	mbalmer	clrh, maybe the move from C4 to Koha could be used to fix a few SQL things as well
11:10	Brooke	do we vote now or do we vote later?
11:10	paul_p	Brooke, later !
11:10	clrh	mbalmer: of course
11:10	kf	bug 7387, bug 7284, bug 929
11:10		Waylon joined #koha
11:10	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7387 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , Add Template::Toolkit plugin to allow caching of includes
11:10	Brooke	galen's guidelines made sense even to me
11:10	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7284 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jcamins, ASSIGNED , Authority matching algorithm improvements
11:10		04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
11:10	Waylon	hello all!
11:10	ColinC	without seeing the code we have nothing to go on
11:10	kf	hm bug 7248 (typo sorry)
11:10	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7248 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services
11:10	paul_p	Brooke, yes, but they're not enough
11:11		ColinC++
11:11	Brooke	surely that's enough for a start.
11:11	Waylon	Ah.. a meeting currently in session?
11:11	Brooke	yep
11:11	Waylon	k. ill wait... watch. and might learn something.
11:11	clrh	it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace"...
11:11	paul_p	Brooke, enough for investigating more. But WHAT do we put in this new namespace !
11:12		if we want to split business & data logic, for example, we need to define their namespace as well !
11:12	clrh	it is not just "putting a pm on a new namespace", and I think it should contains data layer problematics too - we need a little bit of time to think about id
11:12		it
11:13	Brooke	can you guys add your reservations to the bug then? Because I'm not seeing those from here.
11:13	kf	clrh: that's not like it was done I think
11:13	mbalmer	I will pbly use two modules/namesspaces, SQL and DB, should they be within Koha or outside? Maybe SQL, which is Koha agnostic, outside?
11:13	sekjal	idea for Koha:: namespace: two layers of .pm, Data access and Transactional. Only Data access layer talks to DB, and Transactions talk to Data access layer
11:14	magnuse	loose_consensus_and_running_code++
11:14		if we spend too much time discussing what to do we might never get around to doing anything...
11:14	kf	yes
11:14	Brooke	magnus++
11:14		bigbrovar joined #koha
11:14	paul_p	sekjal, agreed ! and that's where/why we need a more detailled proposition !
11:14	thd	clrh: The difficulty of abstraction is partly that what is returned by the data layer can improperly define the business logic. I had written a meta-bug report about this problem.
11:14	kf	magnuse++
11:15	Waylon	hmm... so isolating db specific code, so one can develop db access for other databases without too much hassle eh?
11:15	kf	I think we could take existing work as a start
11:15		people can make suggestions looking at this code - signingoff/qaing it
11:15	clrh	thd what number please?
11:15	Brooke	http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7248
11:15	huginn	04Bug 7248: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Caching for services
11:16	thd	clrh: checking ...
11:16	mbalmer	I suggest a SQL module which produces "optimal" SQL for a specific DB for operations that can not be expressed in standard SQL. Should that be in Koha or outside? I am for outside.
11:16	sekjal	writing/migrating the Data Access layer should involve, I think, looking at some of the data structures we currently have in our DB, and what we can do to change/improve them
11:16		like primary keys for reserves, etc
11:17	thd	clrh: http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3092
11:17	huginn	04Bug 3092: normal, P1 - high, ---, frederic, NEW , Data values storage and use 100 bug meta-bug
11:17	ColinC	there was some discussion of using a standard orm module earlier
11:17	mbalmer	I think using SQL is not a mistake.
11:17	clrh	The idea is not to write things from scratch but having best practice to refactor code little by little in a new workspace I think
11:18	mbalmer	clrh++
11:18	magnuse	clrh: agreed
11:18	kf	clrh: agreed
11:18	sekjal	clrh: much more practical that way
11:18	clrh	so we will continue how work
11:18		s/how/our
11:18	mbalmer	I will add my two modules, they can later be moved into Koha namespace, if it makes sense.
11:18	clrh	to give you asap some concrete things to talk about
11:18	magnuse	this is starting to sound like the topic for a separate meeting?
11:19	thd	clrh++ the proposed remedy I have at the end of that meta-bug is fixing the problem tiny piece by piece in an isolated manner so that nothing breaks.
11:19	clrh	magnuse: I think yes
11:19	ColinC	I would see most of the current big C4 modules as candidate for refactoring into the new name space and code slowly migrating to them
11:19	clrh	thd: did you find the reference?
11:19		o I didnt see it!
11:19		thx
11:19	Brooke	that and not everything need take place in a meeting
11:19	paul_p	Brooke++
11:19	clrh	agreed Brooke :)
11:20	Brooke	did we secretly move on to Coding Guidelines while talking about C4?
11:20		#topic Coding Guidelines
11:20		Topic for #koha is now Coding Guidelines
11:20	magnuse	Brooke: don't think so ;-)
11:21	thd	clrh: However, paul_p wrote about rewriting code which is an opportunity to avoid having features which function as poorly before rewriting as after.
11:21	mbalmer	- Try to avoid SQL code that works only on a particular database.
11:21		- Refactor existing SQL code to work on any database ;)
11:21		that would be two guidelines.
11:21		plus:
11:22		- if in doubt, ask.
11:22		paul_p left #koha
11:22		paul_p joined #koha
11:23	thd	Refactoring and rewriting are not the same. rangi has stated this many times but had given up reminding and may be asleep now.
11:23		alex_a joined #koha
11:23	Brooke	fool! Rangi never sleeps :P
11:23	mbalmer	thd, I agree. I meant rather rewrite or adapt, btw
11:23	Brooke	you guys aren't talkative so
11:24		#topic GBSD
11:24		Topic for #koha is now GBSD
11:24	Brooke	hey there's one coming up
11:24	mbalmer	there's bugs?
11:24	Brooke	it's Friday, or possibly Saturday depending on where you are
11:24		but you can always cheat and pretend you live someplace else. :D
11:25		http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]bug_squashing_day
11:25	magnuse	nah, it's friday, in whatever timezone you happen to be in
11:25	Brooke	Friday?
11:25	wahanui	Friday is It's Friday, Friday Gotta get down on Friday
11:26	Brooke	#topic Actions from Last Meeting
11:26		Topic for #koha is now Actions from Last Meeting
11:27	thd	Brooke: one injection about the hastily left issue of coding practise?
11:27	Brooke	the only stuff I see looks to be KohaCon 2013
11:27		any new stuff there?
11:27		thd: do you have a specific link to summat for something I've already moved past?
11:27		is it really, really pressing?
11:27	magnuse	i think maybe kf had things to say about coding guidelines too?
11:28	thd	Brooke: We had in the past suggested being clear in commits about ...
11:28	magnuse	#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]Coding_Guidelines
11:28	mbalmer	coding guidelines topic still open?
11:28	Brooke	#topic Coding Guidelines again
11:28		Topic for #koha is now Coding Guidelines again
11:28	thd	fixing Perl coding style.
11:28	Brooke	if we keep skipping back to stuff, these meetings are gonna get even longer. #justsayin.
11:28	slef	did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki
11:28	mbalmer	I'd love of lines would not be longer than 80 characters and indents be tabs with 8 character width.
11:29	kf	sorry, phone call
11:29	mbalmer	s/of/if/
11:29		sophie_m joined #koha
11:29	thd	We should also be clear in commits between refactoring and rewriting where rewriting has altered functionality.
11:30	magnuse	we already decided on http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Perltidy
11:30	mbalmer	a bit like http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man[…]fault&format=html
11:30	asaurat	must a patch correct only what the bug title implies, or should we add other enhancements when possi
11:30	paul_p	mbalmer, we already have decided to use 4 spaces.
11:30	mbalmer	ok.
11:30	thd	The test for refactoring is that the same bugs are implemented in a different manner.
11:31	ColinC	bugs/behaviour
11:31	thd	Rewriting changes bugs fixes and/or adds new ones.
11:31	Brooke	this is failing my mental tests for does it belong in a meeting, btw
11:31		I think I have to do those up
11:31		and vote on em at some point
11:32	thd	Brooke: right
11:32	magnuse	i think the question now was how much perltidy'ing should we be doing?
11:32		sophie_m left #koha
11:32	magnuse	if we fix some bug, should we perltidy just the one line we touched, a block, a whole function?
11:32	thd	magnuse: There was an unanswered question which paul_p posed about when to tidy?
11:32	Brooke	magnuse I think the old consensus was new stuff pretty darn tidy, old stuff we'd get to eventually.
11:33	thd	paul_p are you still here?
11:33	paul_p	thd, yep.
11:33	magnuse	so if a patch is tidying lines that were not otherwise changed, should it be failed qa?
11:33	ColinC	If you tidy more than is chamged it gets hardr to see what the change was in the history
11:33	paul_p	the problem is git blame.
11:33	magnuse	yup
11:34	clrh	something is to dig about "git blame -w"
11:34	thd	paul_p: Do you remember that you had wanted to discuss when to tidy during KohaCon 2011 dev week?
11:34	ColinC	but use taste i.e. a line before or after may get tidied to make the indent obvious
11:34	asaurat	yep, of course
11:34	mbalmer	why not tidying a file before fixing a bug? aka fix bugs in previously tidyied files?
11:35	magnuse	"-w Ignore whitespace when comparing the parent's version and the child's to find where the lines came from." cool!
11:35	paul_p	mbalmer, not in the same patch as the fix iteself !
11:35	mbalmer	so these tidy ups get separate commits
11:35	paul_p	(otherwise, QAing is almost impossible, you get 1000 lines changed !)
11:35		yep, in separate commits.
11:35	* kf	reads back now
11:35	mbalmer	paul_p, that is what I meant. one patch to tidy up, no function changes, a separate one for the actual fix
11:36	ColinC	you lose history if you tidy the file but it may be a good way to work on it just dont commit the whole tidied file
11:36	magnuse	there's also git diff to think about
11:36	paul_p	but a perltidy will result in git blame being wrong.
11:36	Brooke	do we care if the code is nicer?
11:36	paul_p	I think we must choose our poison !
11:36	mbalmer	ColinC, why loose history? the tyding up becomes part of the history, or do I miss sth?
11:37	jwagner	Brooke, I think we definitely do care -- we frequently need to see when a particular change came in and who did it
11:37	mbalmer	Brooke, nicer code is easier to maintain, and means less errors
11:37	paul_p	either decide to perltidy everything, and loose history, or keep history and stop complaining about tidy
11:37	ColinC	yes we do care because it becomes harder to see what introduced some behaviour
11:37	thd	Brooke: It is not merely about having prettier code. Readability and consistency helps avoid bugs.
11:37	paul_p	I don't see another option !
11:37	slef	mbalmer: maybe not lose history, but it can obscure it.
11:37	mbalmer	I don't understand why do we loos the history?
11:37		it's just an additional commit, right?
11:37	paul_p	is our goal to keep history clear (you're right slef) or have something more readable ?
11:38	Brooke	but that's not what was decided
11:38		and I don't see a reason to deviate from new code meeting new standards
11:38	kf	mbalmer: it will not be clear who wrote the line
11:38	paul_p	mbalmer, right. but git blame will say the perltidy author is to blame for almost everything
11:38	sekjal	if we keep our tidy commits and our functionality commits distinct
11:38	kf	mbalmer: only who last changed it
11:38	Brooke	and old code would eventually phase itself out
11:38	ColinC	paul_p in practice to compromise between the two
11:38	paul_p	ColinC, how ?
11:38	sekjal	and the commit message is "Tidying code" or the like
11:38	mbalmer	paul_p, a now I see the issue.
11:38	sekjal	we can easily skip over that patch in a git log, and look for the next functionality-based patch, when checking history
11:38	paul_p	I think so.
11:39	slef	ok, does anyone remember if git blame can drill down into history, or shall I test now?
11:39	kf	I think one suggestion was tidying the parts where your bug fix is
11:39		perhaps we could say - tidy the whole code block in that case?
11:39	paul_p	does it mean we would/should/could go for a big perltidy one day ?
11:39	kf	not sure that's practical
11:39	Brooke	do we have anything to discuss that we didn't already agree upon two months ago?
11:39	mbalmer	is git blam so holy? I mean the history is still there...
11:39	magnuse	what's a block of code?
11:39	Brooke	is there anything new here?
11:39	paul_p	kf, you're right ! having a part tidied and a part not tidied is a nightmare very soon !
11:39	kf	Brooke: the problem is, that it's not clear now - so people don't know what to do, we should clarify
11:40	thd	Brooke: This issue was left unresolved two months ago.
11:40	paul_p	s/is/will be/
11:40	thd	Brooke: Tidy was resolved but not the issue about the rate of use.
11:40	kf	paul_p: didn't mean the whole file - not sure
11:40	mbalmer	I am all for clean, consisten code.
11:40	ColinC	if there was to be a big tidy choose your moment i.e. as part of the 3.8 release
11:40	Brooke	http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]g,_5_October_2011
11:40	mbalmer	consistent, even.
11:40	paul_p	mbalmer, everybody is for that ;-)
11:40	sekjal	git blame is handy, but it's just one tool in our debugging arsenal
11:40	kf	ColinC: that might be reasonable
11:40		similar to the template toolkit switch
11:40	magnuse	+1
11:41	paul_p	I agree for git blame is one tool !
11:41	mbalmer	paul_p, hard to believe, because Perl code will never be nice ;) (scnr)
11:41	paul_p	ColinC++
11:41	kf	if we do a global thing, we can check out the branch, but we should decide about it
11:41	paul_p	mbalmer is a troller !!!
11:41	slef	mbalmer: how do you find the history of a line otherwise?
11:42	paul_p	I like ColinC idea of a big perltidy for 3.8
11:42	mbalmer	well at least I went through the pain of learning the language the last weeks, paul_p ;)
11:42	slef	mbalmer: reading all diffs for a file is not fun IMO.
11:42	mbalmer	slef, I agree. But you would have to do that, then
11:42		afaict.
11:43		maybe git blame is to blame for not being able to go back further in the history of a file
11:43	thd	Brooke: Clarifying: we voted to use Perl standard for tidy but deferred how to approach the issue of when to tidy code which is not being modified otherwise.
11:43	slef	paul_p: yes, a perltidy Day would make things a bit easier (if git blame on master is uninformative, run git blame on pre-perltidy-day tag).
11:43	paul_p	the more I think of it the more I like the idea of a bit perltidy in 3.8 !
11:44	slef	mbalmer: I'm sure they'd welcome patches to git-blame.
11:44	Brooke	12:09:26 <kf> I hve no strong opinion about the coding thing - make it consistent and choose one, change code not at once but bit by bit perhaps
11:44		12:09:37 <paul_p_> kf++
11:44	clrh	I agree paul_p
11:44	Brooke	12:09:43 <wizzyrea> kf++
11:44		12:09:47 <ColinC> kf+
11:44		12:09:51 <slef> mtj: git format-patch -o .. 'HEAD^'
11:44		12:09:57 <wizzyrea> (and publish it somewhere)
11:44		12:09:58 <thd> kf++
11:44		I really bloody hate talking things over that are minutia twice.
11:44	sekjal	putting it off until the end of this release cycle would make coding 3.8 easier
11:44	paul_p	sekjal, ???
11:45		why is it easier ?
11:45	magnuse	Brooke: it's not minutia imho, it's a question of what patches to fail qa...
11:45	thd	Brooke: Bit by bit had seemed to be the previous consensus but paul_p had raised problems with that approach on the mailing list.
11:45	Brooke	fine
11:45		we vote
11:45	clrh	magnuse: rebase + perltidy does not seems really big ;)
11:45	paul_p	OK, i'll send a mail to koha-devel with this proposition.
11:45	Brooke	instead of talking about voting
11:45	clrh	ok Brooke
11:45	paul_p	OK for voting Brooke !
11:46	Brooke	so the proposal is we handle things as we code ensuring that they're in line with perl tidy and other suggestions with the coding guidelines
11:46		+1 for little by little.
11:46	ColinC	+1
11:46	kf	clrh: will give conflicts perhaps? patches in the list now changing same files and so on? not sure
11:46	paul_p	-1 (i'm for big perltidy day)
11:46	mbalmer	there is one technical problem, however:
11:46	clrh	-1 (i'm for big perltidy day)
11:46	magnuse	+1 for bit by bit
11:46		mveron joined #koha
11:47	kf	+1 for little by littel - will not hurt anything now
11:47	sekjal	paul_p: lets us differ the issue, focus on functionality for the next few months, then we can run scripts to do mass clean up after
11:47	mbalmer	some of the better editors cut whitespace off the line endings, and that leads to whitespace patches when you edit a file.
11:47	sekjal	maybe not any easier
11:47	thd	-1 big perltidy day timed with release cycle if possible
11:47	sekjal	seemed that way to my pre-coffee brain
11:47	* sekjal	drinks a cup now
11:47	paul_p	sekjal, that's also an option.
11:47	kf	little by little for me means = fix things where you fix your bug
11:47		not the whole file, the lines you are working on
11:48	magnuse	kf++
11:48	Brooke	I agree with that kf
11:48	paul_p	kf, NO NO NO !
11:48	ColinC	kf++
11:48	mbalmer	what if the editor clears up whitespace?
11:48	paul_p	that will be unreadable quickly !
11:48	slef	git log --pretty=oneline -S'string to search for' # may help with seeing behind a perltidy
11:48	mbalmer	paul_p++
11:48	kf	paul_p: I think for most things it will work quite ok - we already have it all mixed up
11:48	thd	My position for a big tidy day is not against using tidy when you modify a file as a separately labelled patch.
11:48	clrh	there is two little by little kf be carefull
11:48	kf	can't get more unreadable, only moving into one direction now instead of a lto of directions
11:49	Brooke	finish actual voting
11:49		:P
11:49	mbalmer	err, so my editor question remains unanswered?
11:49	Joubu	-1
11:49	julian_m	-1
11:49	matts	-1 too
11:50	kf	perhaps I am misunderstood... I wanted to say write new things using perltidy, fix old when you work on that code, but not outside of the scope of your bug - like fixing the whole file?
11:50		because for now that will not hurt and we can still do a global day later with a release if that's agreed on
11:50	paul_p	kf, i'm against this idea too ;-)
11:50	mbalmer	what can you do if your editor does clean up whitespace when saving the file?
11:50	thd	mbalmer: What do you mean by 'editor'? Who or what is the 'editor'?
11:50	mbalmer	text editor.
11:50	kf	mbalmer: deactivate it
11:50	Brooke	so it looks like little by little now fails.
11:51	mbalmer	kf, for sure not.
11:51	paul_p	kf, if you add a loop outside of existing code, you'll get a foreach that is perltidied & indented, and inside the loop, you may have a different indentation. unreadable quickly !
11:51	Brooke	come up with an alternative and propose it, Paul.
11:51	thd	Brooke: We need to clarify the issue.
11:51	mbalmer	I am not only working on Koha, and otherwise whitespace at line endings is very much frowned upon
11:51	paul_p	Brooke, big perltidy day on 3.8 release
11:51	sekjal	git blame and git diff have "ignore whitespace" flags
11:51	kf	I think in that case perhaps have a follow up doing the perltidy for that part?
11:51	sekjal	so if it's just whitespace, we're fine
11:51	mbalmer	sekjal, ok, that settles it, thanks.
11:52	paul_p	sekjal, yep, but perltidy is also a matter of where to put {} and not only whitepsaces
11:52	sekjal	ah
11:52	mbalmer	it's only WS at line ends, NOT perltidy or so. text structure gets not changed.
11:52	thd	Brooke: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until tidy day or when modifying otherwise and a big tidy day?
11:52	Brooke	vote: Big perltidyday on 3.8 release
11:52	paul_p	+1 (already said ;-) )
11:52	mbalmer	+1
11:52	Brooke	#info Voting on perltidy
11:52	clrh	+1
11:52	thd	+1
11:52	Joubu	=1
11:52		+1
11:53	Waylon	+1
11:53	Brooke	NO EQUALS! RAWR
11:53	julian_m	+1
11:53	sekjal	0
11:53	kf	0
11:53	jwagner	0
11:54	ColinC	0 RM's prerogative tho
11:54	paul_p	1PM here, my stomash is asking for some food ;-)
11:54	slef	0
11:54	thd	paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day?
11:54	sekjal	we need to clearly lay out the pros and cons for this change
11:54		incremental vs. all-at-once
11:55	mbalmer	paul_p, same TZ here, same problem, too ;)
11:55	thd	sekjal: I agree that the vote was a little hasty
11:55	kf	perhaps something to think about for the global change: you can't compare files between different versions then and patches will not apply backwards
11:55	paul_p	yes, but many of us are hungry ;-)
11:55	sekjal	if perltidy is going to give us more than just whitespace changes on single lines
11:55		davidnind left #koha
11:55	sekjal	then we're not going to be able to use a lot of our git tools effectively anymore
11:56		git diff and git blame, for one
11:56	Brooke	thd we voted to have a big perltidy day on 3.8 release
11:56	kf	yes
11:56		but perhaps we need to think more about it
11:56		to see all pro and cons
11:56		that have not been brought up here
11:56	sekjal	would the tidy be backported to 3.6.x?
11:56	thd	sekjal: Brooke was anxious to vote on something rather than rediscuss the old topic :)
11:56		sekjal++
11:56	kf	sekjal: I think it does more, breaking lines differently
11:57	sekjal	my understanding of perltidy is insufficient for me to make an informed choice
11:57	kf	same here
11:57	paul_p	OK, let's say = i send a mail to koha-devel to say "we propose the option of a big perltidy day, let's argue the cons of this idea if there are"
11:57	asaurat	same for me, never used it
11:57	mbalmer	so maybe we should revert that vote? and give us a bit more time?
11:57	thd	kf: Would applying tidy to the old release solve the problem for patching old versions?
11:58	mbalmer	paul_p, sane idea.
11:58	kf	thd: not sure - but I think we should find out before doing something drastic
11:58	jwagner	paul_p, +1
11:58	Brooke	why is this in meeting and not on devel?
11:59	kf	ok
11:59		so for now
11:59	ColinC	kf: but the patches in the in queue will be made against old formatted code
11:59	jwagner	Because meetings are the place where we're supposed to discuss things of concern to the project?
11:59	sekjal	Brooke: heated discussions are more fun in realtime?
11:59	thd	Brooke: It was on the koha-devel list, however, we have gone rather quickly here.
11:59		sekjal++ :)
11:59	Brooke	jwagner: this is relevant in general, not in minutia.
11:59	mbalmer	I have to leave now, next meeting, grr, so cul. and whatever you still vote here: I am all for it! ttyl!
12:00	Brooke	there's no reason to hash minutia at a meeting v over the listserv.
12:00	thd	Brooke: The issue had been raised on koha-devel and then forgotten over the course of KohaCon.
12:00	paul_p	Brooke, maybe we should go forward ? i'm not sure we will find a consensus. This is a trolling topic...
12:00		mbalmer left #koha
12:00	Brooke	I would say
12:01	thd	paul_p: Did we just vote never to use tidy for old files until big tidy day or when otherwise modifying a file and also a big tidy day?
12:01	Brooke	keep hashing it out over devel
12:01		until you have something that you can vote a simple yes or no to
12:01		even if it's a little yes or no
12:01		as in 4 spaces or 8
12:01		and THEN bring that to the meeting
12:01		else
12:01		we have 20 people talking about 20 different pet to dos
12:01		and we have another glorious 2 hour meeting.
12:01	paul_p	thd, I don't see how we can practically use a small bit by small bit.
12:01	thd	Brooke: 4 spaces or 8 is resolved unless someone really wants to raise the issue again.
12:01	Brooke	with no actual progress
12:02		thd it was an example of an actionable item.
12:02	paul_p	thd, no, NOONE want to raise the issue.
12:02	ColinC	thd: please no
12:02	paul_p	or i'll kick him !
12:02	* paul_p	get his gun...
12:02	thd	paul_p: yes no one of course :)
12:02		kmkale joined #koha
12:02	paul_p	;-)
12:02	kf	paul_p: now you scareme
12:03	sekjal	if anyone was going to be pulling iron, I thought it would be one of the Yanks
12:03	thd	paul_p: So we just voted to only tidy new files until big tidy day?
12:03	Brooke	paul, you need to get your sabre or foil, and then we can settle this like men. :P
12:03	paul_p	thd, I would say yes.
12:03	kf	seems so
12:03	Brooke	we didn't but I will pretend that we did :P
12:04	kf	ok for me
12:04		and big day still to be decided
12:04	Brooke	thought big day was timed with the 3.8 release, but we'll leave that to paul and later.
12:04	paul_p	Brooke, agreed.
12:04	Brooke	so
12:04	thd	paul_p: Ok, so we can continue to discuss the issue of applying tidied patches to the possibly untidied current release on the mailing list.
12:05	Brooke	#topic Actions from December
12:05		Topic for #koha is now Actions from December
12:05	Brooke	once again the only thing I see there is KohaCon 2013
12:05		any new stuff on that?
12:06	slef	did the "how to run tests" get updated? I'm elsewhere in the wiki
12:06		nothing new from me on KohaCon 2013. All replies were on-list.
12:07	Brooke	#topic Miscellaneous
12:07		Topic for #koha is now Miscellaneous
12:07	Brooke	I wanted to give a shout out for the Koha Academy project
12:08		we're attempting to get a proper distance education framework in place
12:08		so if you're good at constructing a syllabus or other such things
12:08		please contact kmkale
12:08	slef	#link http://lists.katipo.co.nz/publ[…]ember/031479.html
12:08	sekjal	I've got an announcement that the Koha community may find relevant
12:08	Brooke	just like if you volunteered to teach different stuff at the last KohaCon, we will prolly be conning you into volunteering :)
12:08	slef	actually not sure all replies were on-list. I'll find them and put them to a page.
12:09	Brooke	go for it sekjal :)
12:09		and thanks slef.
12:09	sekjal	at the end of this month, I'll be leaving ByWater Solutions to work at the library at the University of Massachusetts
12:10		I will continue to be part of the Koha community
12:10		but, as UMass is not a Koha institution, Koha will no longer be my primary workday focus
12:11		I intend to finish out my term as QAM, should the community approve
12:11	thd	sekjal: Is UMass considering working on Koha at any future point?
12:11	jwagner	sekjal, good luck with the new job!
12:11	thd	s/working on/using/
12:11	paul_p	sad news. (side effect: you'll miss the European hackfest)
12:11	sekjal	thd: they're part of a 5 college consortium, so it will take a lot of effort to move them, but I will apply what pressure I can
12:11	slef	sekjal: sorry to hear that, yes please and good luck with the new work
12:12	kf	good like sekjal
12:12		hm good luck...
12:12	paul_p	about the QAM role, my position is: if you can promize /think you'll be able to spend something like 8 hours a week on QA things, then go for it. Otherwise, we should ask for another volunteer
12:14	sekjal	I think that, yes, I will be able to dedicate about that much personal time to the job
12:14	slef	next item?
12:14	Brooke	UMass is a great place to work, so look forward to it :)
12:14	kf	sekjal++
12:14	sekjal	thankfully, I'm not alone on the QA team this term, so I won't act as a bottleneck for everything
12:14	paul_p	so i'm OK with this idea
12:14	thd	sekjal++
12:14	Brooke	hang on lemme post some stuff I said in whisper to main
12:15		Brooke: yeah I need to really crystalise what I have in mind for things
12:15		[07:10am] Brooke: the meetings traditionally were the place to vote
12:15		[07:10am] Brooke: however, we've done things like KohaCon outside the meeting
12:15		[07:10am] Brooke: so
12:15		[07:10am] Brooke: we need to figure out what the ultimate forum is
12:15		[07:11am] Brooke: and we also need to streamline how topics are mentioned
12:15		[07:11am] Brooke: I'm guessing folks would prefer an hour a meeting
12:15		[07:11am] Brooke: to like 2 and a half.
12:15		[07:11am] Brooke: it's possible if we do more work in small groups or hash things out over the list or irc much better
12:15		[07:11am] Brooke: and then bring something that can have a yes or no vote to the meeting
12:15		[07:12am] Brooke: or be put into a survey and sent to the list
12:15		[07:12am] Brooke: it seems to me that things that are overarching and affect the spirit of the project
12:15		[07:12am] Brooke: are always going to lend themselves to IRC
12:15		[07:12am] Brooke: where smallish things make sense for a ballot.
12:15	slef	I would suggest timed agenda items again.
12:15	paul_p	timed++
12:16		(clrh always uses timebox !)
12:16	slef	If the chair doesn't mind having permission to break our legs^Wdiscussions to keep to time?
12:16	Brooke	it depends
12:16		chairing is delightfully dynamic
12:16	paul_p	i'm for it !
12:17	Brooke	I tend to impose a time limit if I think summat is gonna be controversial AND beaten to death..
12:17	paul_p	++
12:17	Brooke	I'll keep thinking on things
12:17	slef	traditionally (hah, that old trick!), anyone in a meeting can call for the vote to be held or to move on to the next item... but times on the agenda reduces the surprise for people who don't know such things.
12:17	thd	I think that things should take as long as they take but encouragement should be given to having good discussions outside the monthly meeting in our various fora.
12:18	paul_p	agreed (and TZ things improve this need)
12:19	thd	I think that social pressure such as are we taking too long here is a better solution than strict timing.
12:19	slef	thd: sure. Get a room/workgroup/submeeting is also a valid request, usually combined with a vote or budge.
12:19		I think that social pressure is insufficient here. You can't see people fidget on IRC.
12:20	thd	We could time an are we taking too long here prompt with the possibility that the answer is no.
12:20	Brooke	meh
12:20		anyway
12:20		#topic Time and Date of next meeting
12:20		Topic for #koha is now Time and Date of next meeting
12:20	Brooke	Feb 1 or Feb 8?
12:21	slef	8 Feb?
12:21	Brooke	fine with me
12:21	* slef	opens the bidding
12:21	Brooke	any heavy objections to Feb 8?
12:21	thd	+1
12:21		+1 8th Feb.
12:22	asaurat	no objection
12:22	ColinC	either ok
12:22	slef	Is it 0200 UTC?
12:22	paul_p	OK for me
12:22	Brooke	2 utc yes
12:22	paul_p	3AM for me... wonderfull meeting time ;-)
12:22	Brooke	10 > 2 > 18 is the cycle.
12:23		paul: guess what time it is in NZ right now :P
12:23	slef	1 hour meeting aim?
12:23	Brooke	not nec
12:23		but I'm gonna say think about what you want to say given the agenda before hand
12:24		and if it's not on the agenda, stick it there.
12:24		so vote
12:24		8 February 2 UTC
12:24	slef	+1
12:24	jwagner	+1
12:24	ColinC	+1
12:26	paul_p	+1
12:26	thd	=1
12:26		+1
12:27	sekjal	+!
12:28	Brooke	#info next meeting is 8 Feb 0200 UTC
12:28		#endmeeting
12:28		Topic for #koha is now Koha 3.6.2 & 3.4.7 & 3.2.11 are now available ; Next General IRC Meeting 4 January 2012 at 10:00 UTC+0 \| http://www.koha-community.org \| http://paste.koha-community.org
12:28	huginn	Meeting ended Wed Jan 4 12:28:28 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:28		Minutes: http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]-01-04-10.00.html
12:28		Minutes (text): http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]2-01-04-10.00.txt
12:28		Log: http://librarypolice.com/koha-[…]04-10.00.log.html
12:29	Waylon	okay.. meeting done? i can ask a completely irrelevant question?
12:31	slef	go for it
12:31		wahanui: KohaCon12?
12:31	wahanui	i haven't a clue, slef
12:31	slef	wahanui: KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ategory:KohaCon12
12:31	wahanui	OK, slef.
12:32	Waylon	okay. new system administrator for mandumah.com... has proposed Amazon cloud computing. How does it work?
12:32	slef	and I just updated that with sign-up lists for those who want to express interest pre-registration
12:32		Waylon: nobody knows but search wiki or kohacon10 papers for how to get Koha running on it.
12:32		(it was presented at kohacon10 hackfest I know)
12:33	Waylon	sounds like a headache..
12:33	slef	benefits are scalability AIUI
12:33		and possibly resilience but Amazon don't have an unblemished record on that
12:34	Waylon	cause right now, we have two replicaiton paths. one going from office to servers.. the other, going between the servers., not including the office.
12:34	slef	and I doubt Koha is written to take advantage of all Amazon's resilience features
12:34		but I could be wrong. I have strange feelings towards Amazon so I don't think I'm using Koha there at all.
12:36	thd	Amazon should be regarded with extreme mistrust for non-technical reasons.
12:36	Waylon	please explain, thd.
12:37	ColinC	And look at their technical stuff I found I knew less after I read it
12:37	thd	Amazon has a very bad habit of re-interpreting or changing there terms of use for many of there services which may disallow what had been common use in the past.
12:37	Waylon	we are a digital library archive, a db of 3 gb.. and storage requirements of something like 100 gb or more for pdf files.
12:39	thd	Waylon: The problem to which I am referring is mostly a problem for obtaining bibliographic data from Amazon but what Amazon has most recently named Amazon Web Services should be regarded with suspicion.
12:40	Waylon	please continue.
12:41	thd	Waylon: Relying exclusively upon non-free software or non-free data sources is a hazard which leaves a vulnerability to any service discontinuity.
12:43		Waylon: If you are wholly dependent upon one company for something critical, you are merely waiting for a big problem if there is a sudden change of policy, service, or price from that company.
12:44	Waylon	modifying koha to work with amazon instances, then suddenly, they cannot be run on them... would be difficult to retool back to normal OS, your saying?
12:45	thd	Waylon: However, I have looked for free software systems offering the same level of service as Amazon Web Services and not found a comparable level of flexibility and control for significant dynamically changing use.
12:46		mveron left #koha
12:46	thd	Waylon: Using anything is fine as long as you can change to something else relatively easily if necessary.
12:47	* Waylon	nods. "Would of thought the two vm's on two bare metal boxes would of been sufficient. but the sysadmin sounds like hes tooling up for massive expansion.
12:47	thd	Waylon: The example of Wikileaks brief use of Amazon Web Services should be instructive even if that may be a somewhat special case.
12:50		nengard joined #koha
12:51	Brooke	hey nicole :)
12:51	thd	Waylon: My understanding is that the pricing of Amazon only works favourably in comparison to simpler and less dynamically changeable alternatives when the use of the service has large unpredictable variable use patterns.
12:51		s/Amazon/AWS/
12:54		Waylon: The issue about when AWS is occasionally presented on various web forums with real numbers for various scenarios in which AWS often loses.
12:55		s/when/when to use/
12:56	Waylon	i guess the first step to understanding all this, is understanding what the sysadmin actually means.
12:57	nengard	OMG it's freezying here!!!
12:57		@wunder 19030
12:57	huginn	nengard: The current temperature in Highland Park, Levittown, Pennsylvania is -9.9°C (7:53 AM EST on January 04, 2012). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 53%. Dew Point: -18.0°C. Windchill: -15.0°C. Pressure: 30.39 in 1029.0 hPa (Rising).
12:57	nengard	:(
12:57		hiya Brooke
12:57	thd	Waylon: Your sysadmin may have more things in mind than merely library automation systems.
12:57	nengard	and al
12:57		and all!
12:58	Waylon	there isn't any info on amazon, on the koha wiki
12:58	thd	Waylon: The overall use may favour AWS for some price or convenience factor.
13:00		Waylon: Koha can be configured to use Amazon for cover images and reviews in the display of bibliographic records.
13:02	jcamins	Was there any conclusion about the Koha namespace?
13:02	* jcamins	skimmed the minutes, and didn't see any consensus.
13:02	thd	Waylon: In my extreme overwork on non-Koha stuff I have neglected code which I have been given to use Amazon as part of an automation in cataloguing.
13:03		tcohen joined #koha
13:03	thd	jcamins: What sort of consensus would you like?
13:03	jcamins	(P.S. sorry about missing the meeting... I completely forgot, thanks to buying an apartment:)
13:03	* Waylon	nods.
13:03	jcamins	thd: are we changing to the Koha namespace?
13:03	nengard	Do we have a date for kohacon12 yet?
13:03	jcamins	Or are we going to just talk about it for another five years and pollute C4 further?
13:03	Waylon	well.. we know that koha can work on EC2's... so sayith liblime... but how that works.. no idea.
13:03	jcamins	Waylon: Koha works great on EC2.
13:04	Waylon	how?
13:04	* jcamins	runs Koha on EC2.
13:04	Waylon	hwo does the seperate instances communicate?
13:04	thd	jcamins: The consensus was that there is disagreement over the approach taken in an old patch for abstraction and BibLibre are preparing a proof of concept.
13:04	jcamins	Waylon: the same way they would with any other divided system.
13:04		thd: ah. Thanks.
13:05	thd	jcamins: Discussion on the mailing list.
13:05	jcamins	thd: Thanks.
13:06	thd	jcamins: The important result from the meeting is to encourage more discussion on the mailing list and at all hours on IRC to allow meetings to be run more quickly with as many participants as we have now.
13:06		nengard: Yes we have dates.
13:06	nengard	good! what are they?
13:07	* thd	checks some logs
13:07	Brooke	KohaCon2012?
13:07		info Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:07		wahanui is so much more useless than zoia.
13:07	Waylon	mysql replication relies on a max number of nodes due to insert interval and offset. how does that work with EC2?
13:07	tcohen	hi #koha
13:08	nengard	thanks Brooke
13:08	Brooke	wahanui: KohaCon2012?
13:08	wahanui	brooke: i don't know
13:08	Brooke	useless.
13:08		wahanui: KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:08	wahanui	OK, Brooke.
13:08	Brooke	KohaCon2012?
13:08	wahanui	rumour has it KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
13:09	jcamins	Waylon: oh, I haven't been running anything large enough to have more than a master/slave setup with MySQL.
13:09		Waylon: I don't believe LLEK does anything more complex, either.
13:09	Waylon	so, youve only had two nodes, in circular replication?
13:10	jcamins	No, one read-write master, one read-only slave.
13:10		Waylon: I work with small, highly-specialized collections.
13:10	thd	jcamins: What is the purpose of the read only slave?
13:11	Waylon	hmm? so how does a slave instance modify the database?
13:11	jcamins	Waylon: it doesn't modify the database.
13:11		thd: hot backup.
13:11	Waylon	hot backup? How come you don't use innodb and singletransaction dump instead?
13:12		ooooo
13:12		sorry
13:12		hot meaning running.
13:12		failsafe.
13:12	thd	jcamins: I hope that you also do proper cold backups and not merely replication.
13:12	Waylon	why run this setup in EC2?
13:13	jcamins	thd: of course.
13:13		Waylon: it's easier to scale up/down.
13:14	kf	jcamins: can I perhaps bribe you into looking at 5369?
13:14	jcamins	bug 5369
13:14	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5369 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, katrin.fischer, ASSIGNED , se queries with paranthesis fail
13:14	tcohen	anyone from biblibre available?
13:14	kf	I think I did it the way I did after consulting with you
13:14		but I don't remember the reasoning
13:14		:(
13:14	jcamins	Is that the one you meant?
13:14	Waylon	jcamins, scale up?
13:15	jcamins	Waylon: yeah, I can add more clients/servers easily.
13:15	Waylon	how is this different from Xen XCP?
13:16	jcamins	Waylon: it probably isn't, but I am using EC-2.
13:16		:P
13:16		Waylon: don't forget that we don't all have data centers.
13:16		And between EC-2 and Rackspace, EC-2 works a lot better.
13:17		oleonard joined #koha
13:19	thd	jcamins: One difference is that Xen is a portable free software solution, which Amazon is not.
13:19	jcamins	thd: yes, but does Xen come with servers?
13:19		That are as affordable as Amazon's?
13:19		NateC joined #koha
13:20	jcamins	(see exhibit A, some of us don't have our own data centers)
13:20	thd	jcamins: Price advantage for EC2 is highly use case dependent.
13:21	* Waylon	's work uses two bare metal servers inside softlayer.
13:21	Waylon	then VM's within that.
13:21	jcamins	If I had a data center, I'd do that too.
13:23	Waylon	Amazon Relational Database Service .. means a db server outside of the EC2 instances?
13:24	thd	jcamins: I also do not have my own data centre, however, I have reasonable virtual hosting without the degree of quick scalability provided by EC2.
13:24	jcamins	Waylon: don't use it. It performs poorly.
13:24		thd: I'm satisfied with my current arrangement.
13:25	Waylon	is there a way to automatically increase the number of servers inside a circular mysql circle?
13:25	jcamins	Waylon: not to my knowledge.
13:25	Waylon	... s/circle/replication
13:25	thd	jcamins: I am merely scared every time I read an Amazon terms of service agreement.
13:25	Waylon	right.. so its all text editing or global sets.
13:28	thd	jcamins: My concern about Amazon is many instances of behaving in a manner hostile to the interests of their customers mostly outside the scope of EC2.
13:29	jcamins	paul_p: around?
13:31		paul_p: if you happen to see this message, which branch should I look at for the latest solr code?
13:31	* jcamins	has to get ready to head into the city. On-site today.
13:36	paul_p	jcamins_away, i'm here !
13:36		jcamins_away, look at dev/solr
13:39		edveal left #koha
13:43	tcohen	rangi: if one was to invalidate something in memcached (something big as a preferences hash)
13:43		is it better to flush_all (O(1)) or to just delete the key
13:43		?
13:43	kf	jcamins++ thx for commenting
13:47	tcohen	any good soul around? to signoff on bug 6193 so I can safely work on top of that?
13:47	Brooke	kf++
13:47	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6193 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, tomascohen, ASSIGNED , Use memcached cache koha-conf.xml configuration variables
13:47	Brooke	I'm afraid my soul is beyond redemption, Sir.
13:49	kf	tcohen: rangi is probably asleep almost 3 am in nz
13:55	tcohen	oops
13:57		Topic for #koha is now Koha 3.6.2 & 3.4.7 & 3.2.11 are now available ; Next General IRC Meeting 8 February at 2:00 UTC+0 \| http://www.koha-community.org \| http://paste.koha-community.org
13:57	oleonard	Correct?
13:57	kf	hi oleonard :)
13:58	* oleonard	is finishing reading the meeting log
13:58		is sorry he wasn't there to vote against sekjal changing jobs
13:59		talljoy joined #koha
13:59	kf	engard: still around? :)
13:59		hm nengard
14:00	slef	KohaCon12?
14:00	wahanui	KohaCon12 is, like, http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ategory:KohaCon12
14:00	nengard	hi
14:00	wahanui	hello, nengard
14:00	nengard	whatcha need?
14:00	oleonard	KohaCon2012?
14:00	wahanui	KohaCon2012 is Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:00	kf	needing nothing
14:00	slef	oleonard: that's not its name :-/
14:00	oleonard	slef: Wasn't me! :P
14:00	slef	wahanui: forget KohaCon2012
14:00	wahanui	slef: I forgot kohacon2012
14:01	slef	wahanui: KohaCon12 is also Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:01	wahanui	okay, slef.
14:01	slef	KohaCon12?
14:01	wahanui	KohaCon12 is http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ategory:KohaCon12 or Conference Tue 5 June 2012 to Thu 7th, Hackfest Sat 9th June-Mon 11th June
14:04	* mtj	waves from nz :)
14:04	mtj	3am here :p
14:04	Brooke	kohacon2012
14:04		kohacon2012?
14:04		now it's dumb again.
14:04	Waylon	Kohacon2012?
14:04	Brooke	information 2 places > information 1 place.
14:05	slef	kohacon2012 is a typo for kohacon12
14:05	oleonard	Can wahanui do "see also?"
14:05	Brooke	it's an alternate title
14:05		cross references make for cross readers.
14:05		JesseM joined #koha
14:05	slef	I feel it's a mistake.
14:06	Brooke	tell me if you feel that way in a hundred years :P
14:06	mtj	sorry i missed the meeting all, will have a read of the logs now....
14:06	slef	Brooke: then it can add 2100 one year ;-)
14:06	Waylon	heres hoping we'll be here in 100 years.
14:06	Brooke	amazed you're still up mtj
14:07	slef	consistency with kohacon10 is better than futureproofing IMO
14:07	Brooke	if you're going to harp on consistency, it used to just be kohacon :P
14:07	slef	also I think others were using KohaCon12 before me
14:08	Brooke	there are instances of both in documentation
14:08		so
14:08		no reason to get all bent out of shape.
14:09	slef	I'm not. I was just quietly deprecating the lesser-used one.
14:09	* slef	shrugs
14:09	mtj	Brooke: i was asleep... but now im up and perky
14:23		trea joined #koha
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14:26		ago43 joined #koha
14:27		libsysguy joined #koha
14:27	libsysguy	morning #Koha
14:28	sekjal	morning, libsysguy
14:28	libsysguy	had two realizations today...cait and kf are the same person and I haven't seen druthb in forever
14:28		morning sekjal
14:32	nengard	libsysguy we keep druthb super busy :)
14:34		wizzyrea joined #koha
14:35	* wizzyrea	waves
14:37	sekjal	morning, wizzyrea
14:37	kf	libsysguy: I thought I told you that
14:40		libsysguy: seriously, you didn't know?
14:45		ago43 joined #koha
14:46		maximep joined #koha
14:46	wizzyrea	alright, bbiab
14:57	libsysguy	yeah seriously kf
14:57		i was all like 0_0
14:57	kf	I am sorry
14:57		I was quite sure you did know
14:57	libsysguy	hehe its cool
14:58		and nengard why do you have to lock up druthb
14:58	kf	like really really sure I told you sometime... heh
14:58	libsysguy	you probably did
14:58		and i am just dense
14:58	nengard	i'm not locking her up!!
14:58		she's locking herself up so she can focus :)
14:59	kf	libsysguy: that wasnot what I meant!
14:59	libsysguy	hehe nengard
14:59		kf I know :p
15:07		schuster joined #koha
15:15	magnuse	http://boston.cbslocal.com/201[…]-from-5-year-old/
15:15	wizzyrea	heh
15:15	magnuse	maybe koha should have a "send the police to this patron" button?
15:17	libsysguy	^^
15:17	magnuse	integrated with the police's api, of course
15:17	wizzyrea	a report would do
15:17	magnuse	or a cronjob?
15:17	libsysguy	cronjob for sure
15:21		NateC left #koha
15:22		NateC joined #koha
15:23		NateC joined #koha
15:24	jcamins	paul_p: thanks.
15:25	nengard	facebook friends help me pick: http://www.facebook.com/nengar[…]s/246280375440935
15:25	jcamins	kf: well, I tried to clarify.
15:28		What is Matthias Meusburger's nick?
15:28	magnuse	matts, i think?
15:28	jcamins	matts++ # bug 7400 ROCKS!!!!!!!!
15:28	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7400 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Add auto-completion on auth_finder
15:28	matts	^^
15:29		Nice :)
15:29	nengard	I love it!
15:29	magnuse	sounds really useful!
15:29	* jcamins	will test it and sign off when he can.
15:29	jcamins	But matts deserved some karma up front, too.
15:30	matts	thanx jcamins :)
15:30		hopefully the testing part will be smooth
15:31	maximep	curious about why using yui instead of jquery ?
15:32	matts	there already was yui autocompletion in koha
15:32	maximep	ah ok, didn't know what it used
15:33	matts	I don't exactly remember where, right now... But it was there :)
15:33	jcamins	maximep: I think oleonard is working on a way to change it over to jQuery but it isn't done yet.
15:33	* oleonard	is
15:33	matts	that could be nice...
15:34	oleonard	Bug 5481
15:34	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5481 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Replace YUI JS libraries with Jquery UI
15:34	oleonard	STILL waiting for the jQueryUI menu widget to come out of alpha.
15:35	maximep	I wish jqueryui would care more about accessibility ;/
15:35	kf	oleonard: perhaps we should give up on that? :(
15:35	nengard	there is a bug for this: when you click the invoice number on the acq search results it always says 'no items received' even though you have already received items
15:35	oleonard	kf: Maybe so
15:35	wizzyrea	or - what's keeping it alpha?
15:36	kf	maximep: :( are you working with a cutomer where this is a problem?
15:36	wizzyrea	maybe we should help them out (if that's even possible)
15:36	oleonard	maximep: In what way?
15:36	kf	because I have a library with a blind staff member... and I am interested to know about known problems
15:36		or we have a new library... where this will be important
15:36		I got a report that the pull down menus are a problem, like edit on staff detail
15:37	wizzyrea	those menus are a problem for selenium testing too, iirc
15:39		(though that particular problem isn't a huge one for day-to-day_
15:39		)
15:40	* wizzyrea	pokes anyone for a sign off on 7388 patch 1
15:40	jcamins	bug 7388
15:40	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7388 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , rounded corners for side menus in staff client
15:40	wizzyrea	it's teensy
15:40	* jcamins	pokes back.
15:40	jcamins	Bother. This isn't in Uzbek.
15:42	* wizzyrea	also pokes regarding bug 7157
15:42	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7157 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, wizzyrea, ASSIGNED , Improve the j2a.pl cronjob
15:42	wizzyrea	you can't tell me people aren't clamoring for that.
15:42	slef	remind me what j2a is
15:42	wizzyrea	kid -> adult patron category transitions
15:43		juvenile 2 adult, technically
15:43		I didn't name it :P
15:43	* oleonard	is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script
15:43	* wizzyrea	laughs
15:44	wizzyrea	@quote add *oleonard is waiting for a good scientist -> hulk patron category transition script
15:44	huginn	wizzyrea: The operation succeeded. Quote #175 added.
15:44	jcamins	Good news! This is in Bukharan!
15:44	wizzyrea	what in heavens name are you working on
15:44	maximep	kf: we have an accessibility expert working here and it will soon become one of our priorities
15:44	jcamins	Bad news: there's no language code for Bukharan.
15:45	maximep	but it will probably be opac only
15:45	jcamins	wizzyrea: cataloging.
15:45	kf	maximep: that's good news!
15:45	wizzyrea	woot maximep that's great :)
15:47	kf	maximep: it's a start :)
15:48	wizzyrea	maximep++ it's a good place to do work on koha
15:53	sekjal	anyone in a UNIMARC library able to test bug 3216?
15:53	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3216 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, frederic, NEW , UNIMARC author facets
15:53	sekjal	getting the first patch committed will open the door to bug 4255
15:53	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4255 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Add item type to facet list
15:54	jcamins	kf: could you address marcelr's latest comment?
15:55	kf	I will try to do so tonight
15:55	jcamins	Thanks. :)
15:56	kf	team work :)
15:57	oleonard	the discussion of Bug 4274 versus Bug 3651 would be improved by some concrete descriptions of the security implications
15:57	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4274 minor, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Cart now requires login before emailing contents
15:57		04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3651 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED , Require patron login to send shelves and baskets
15:58	maximep	kf: but wait, do you really know a blind library staff member ? That seems so weird to me for some reason :S
15:59	wizzyrea	oleonard: can the facility be used to spam people?
15:59		(that would be my main concern)
15:59		probably what we need
15:59	oleonard	That is the assertion made in the original bug report
15:59	wizzyrea	is something that detects more than x number of list sends in y timeframe
16:00		and disallows them for z duration
16:00		(for logged out users)
16:00		(logged in users can send as many as they want)
16:00		NateC joined #koha
16:02	wizzyrea	I think logged out users should be able to send, but they should be limited somehow, is what I'm getting at.
16:02		10 lists in 15 minutes?
16:02		a bot would easily surpass that, a human might have trouble.
16:03	sekjal	any numbers should be syspref (or config file) controllable, instead of hardcoded
16:03	wizzyrea	right but you've gotta pick the defaults :)
16:04	reiveune	bye
16:04		reiveune left #koha
16:04		sophie_m joined #koha
16:07		matts_away joined #koha
16:12	* tcohen	has made his first use of git-bz attach :-D
16:12	wizzyrea	tcohen++ don't you adore it
16:12		there are few things that make life as much better as git-bz
16:12	tcohen	wizzyrea: this is heaven
16:13	kf	tcohen+
16:13		tcohen++
16:13	* oleonard	still hesitates to use git-bz attach, not sure why
16:13	jcamins	oleonard: it's wonderful!
16:13	wizzyrea	oh my it is SO great.
16:13		the only thing I've found that it doesn't work well for
16:13		is binary attachments
16:13	* tcohen	only needs learning how to change bug dependencies
16:14	kf	maximep: I don't think it's weird - I think it's awesome :)
16:14	wizzyrea	maximep: what kind of disabilities are you trying to accommodate for?
16:14	* wizzyrea	is just curious
16:14	huginn	New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6000] Performance enhancements for C4::Context and C4::Languages <http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6000>
16:14	kf	tcohen: have you seen that you can obsolte patches in one step with attaching a new?
16:14	tcohen	nope
16:14	wizzyrea	^^ this has changed my life
16:14	tcohen	THAT would be heaven
16:14	kf	hehe
16:14		you have to be a bit fast
16:14	wizzyrea	I don't even care that you have to be fast
16:14	kf	but it's doable
16:15		git bz attach -e <bugnumber> HEAD
16:15		then
16:15		uncomment the attachement line
16:15	wizzyrea	uncomment Obsoletes
16:15	kf	yep
16:15		you only have to be a bit fast
16:15	wizzyrea	for all the patches you want to obsolete
16:15	kf	or it will time out
16:15	wizzyrea	20 seconds I think it is
16:15	kf	but it works very well
16:16	wizzyrea	if only you could change the patch status there too, it would be like, angels singing and throwing little pickles
16:16	jcamins	Pickles?
16:16	wizzyrea	have you never seen real genius?
16:16	jcamins	ope.
16:16		*Nope
16:17	wizzyrea	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgNgAiGQ_IM
16:18		asaurat left #koha
16:18	kf	wizzyrea: I think you can do some things with git bz edit
16:18		but it's quite limited
16:18	wizzyrea	yea
16:18		I think patch status is a special conditional field for us or something
16:18	kf	yep
16:19		custom field or something like that
16:19	* jcamins	gazes with perplexity.
16:19	jcamins	What a weird book this is.
16:19	kf	hm?
16:19	jcamins	I can find no record of the book, the author, the translator, the original Russian edition, or anything else.
16:20	kf	oh
16:21		it's a print with only 1 book?
16:21	jcamins	The edition supposedly had 2,000 copies, but apparently only one is known to have survived, and the author and translator are remarkably poorly-known.
16:23	kf	ok
16:23		end of year acq question
16:23		has someone sql scripts moving the old orders to the new budgets/funds?
16:24		sophie_m joined #koha
16:26	maximep	wizzyrea: pretty much all disabilities
16:27	wizzyrea	so, motor disabilities, auditory disabilities, and visual disabilities?
16:27	maximep	yes
16:28		that means everything from color contrast, make it work at 200% font size, make it keyboard accessible
16:28		stuff like that
16:29		and of course make it work for screen readers
16:29	kf	:)
16:29		we have reports that it works quite ok with lynx
16:29		maximep: koha has a blind developer too :) \|Lupin\|
16:31	maximep	cool
16:36	wizzyrea	sooo, version numbering
16:36		it's quite confusing to have a master number at 3.06.03.01
16:36		just sayin.
16:36	* kf	agrees
16:37	* jcamins	too
16:37	wizzyrea	i had to go back and verify that I was using the right branch - it wastes my time
16:48		libsysguy left #koha
16:48	jcamins	Speaking of branches, I pruned my git branches yesterday.
16:49		I was delighted to find that I could delete about fifty branches because they'd been pushed.
16:49	wizzyrea	:D
16:50	jcamins	It really highlights how many features and bug fixes get into Koha.
16:50	wizzyrea	ya
16:50		is great :)
16:50	nengard	jcamins is there a way to batch delete branches?
16:51	oleonard	I was delighted to find today that almost all of my patch-sent git branches are either signed off or passed-QA
16:51	wizzyrea	it' bc you're awesome.
16:51	jcamins	nengard: not that I know of. I just did branch -D (all the branches I wanted to delete)
16:51	* oleonard	will have to work to make more work for QA
16:51	wizzyrea	oleonard++
16:51	nengard	k
16:51	jcamins	nengard: I was checking each bug to confirm that it was really pushed.
16:52	nengard	yeah
16:52		makes sense
16:52	sekjal	got some code for bug 7401.... one minor problem
16:52	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7401 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Shelving Location facet instead of Branch facet when only 1 branch configured
16:53	oleonard	I think you can git branch -d branch1 branch2
16:53	sekjal	search results have no idea what side (OPAC or staff) they're being compiled for
16:55	paul_p	oleonard, the next step is to signoff bugs from others then, if you don't know what to do ;-)
16:55		oleonard, & jcamins & wizzyrea & others = have you seen sekjal today announcement ?
16:55	* wizzyrea	did
16:55	jcamins	paul_p: I have indeed.
16:58	sekjal	I'll be finishing out my term as QAM, if the community allows. I have no indention of leaving Koha; I'll just be changing/scaling back my hours
16:59	oleonard	Oh sure, that's what they all say. And we never saw jcamins again!
16:59	jcamins	oleonard: no, but you saw jcamins' fudge which makes up for it, no? :P
17:00	oleonard	:)
17:01	nengard	ha!
17:03	sekjal	I'm looking forward to getting my home Koha install up and running
17:04		and customized to do some of the crazy things private libraries may want to do
17:04	jcamins	sekjal: you mean like uploading images?
17:04		!!
17:04		That reminds me of something on my to-do list!
17:04	sekjal	jcamins: yes, that's pretty neat
17:04	jcamins	Can anyone guess what?
17:04	sekjal	I also want to be able to do more kinds of biblio-to-biblio relationships
17:05	* jcamins	watches sekjal bug himself about QAing bug 1633, and crosses that item off his to-do list.
17:05	nengard	jcamins whatever happened to the easy cataloging interface you were working on
17:05	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1633 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, kmkale, ASSIGNED , Add ability to take book cover images from local img db
17:05	jcamins	nengard: it got larger.
17:05	nengard	heh
17:05	huginn	New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6968] Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page <http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6968>
17:05	jcamins	nengard: and moved out of Koha-proper, actually.
17:06		Once it's fully functional, I look forward to adding it back to Koha proper.
17:06	nengard	k
17:07	maximep	finally had time to fix my patch for 6968... 1 month later :/
17:08	wizzyrea	bug 6968
17:08	jcamins	maximep: there are patches that have taken longer.
17:08	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page
17:10	jcamins	sekjal++ # arbitrary bibliographic relationships would be awesome.
17:10		Also awesome: supporting MODS.
17:11		Also also awesome: replacing C4::XSLT with a T::T plugin.
17:11	wizzyrea	maximep: not to be a bother, but may we have a test plan for 6968?
17:12		for those of us who don't use serials everyday it's not really clear how to test it
17:12	sekjal	it'll probably be easier for me to convert metadata into MARC than to do arbitrary metadata format support, but I'd like to go there, too
17:12	wizzyrea	at least it's not clear to me
17:12	jcamins	sekjal: I know, but I thought I'd water the seed. ;)
17:13	maximep	well I don't know more than you about serials, so not really sure I can provide a test plan
17:13	sekjal	I'll need to automate record creation based on some odd data sources (like MusicBrainz)
17:13	slef	jcamins: sounds euphemistic
17:14	wizzyrea	... ok then.
17:14	maximep	already had the data to test it :/
17:15	huginn	New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 6885] Superlibrarian users can't delete items from another library when IndependantBranches <http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6885>
17:15	kf	bug 6968
17:15	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6968 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, colin.campbell, NEW , Show items expired before today in check expiration of serials page
17:16	kf	I wonder
17:16		why not justmake it a date range?
17:17		expired between x and x?
17:17		why is today important? coudl be preselected to search like that
17:20	maximep	not sure a range would work
17:20		the client just wanted to see everything expired
17:31		kf left #koha
17:49	wizzyrea	hey what are the new FAQ's?
17:49		Package usage
17:53	slef	bbl
17:53	jcamins	wizzyrea: Why?
17:53	* jcamins	asks that a lot.
17:53	jcamins	Frequently, even.
17:54	wizzyrea	why not?
17:54	jcamins	"Can Koha run under Windows?"
17:54	gmcharlt	yes, it's called VirtualBox
17:54		;)
17:54	jcamins	wizzyrea: I don't know.
17:55		Third base.
17:55	oleonard	"Can I train my cat to wear shoes?"
17:55	wizzyrea	for koha, silly
17:57		cait joined #koha
17:57	rangi	izban12
17:57		heh
17:59		lucky i dont use that for anything important
17:59	jcamins	Heh.
18:09		rangi: good morning.
18:09	rangi	morning :)
18:11	cait	morning rangi :)
18:11	jcamins	Chester the cat says hi.
18:11		s/cat/cloud of fur/
18:11	rangi	sup peeps
18:12	wizzyrea	not a lot :)
18:12		is a testing day
18:15	cait	oh Chester?
18:15	wahanui	hmmm... Chester is no where near there, ye littlle...
18:15	cait	where is Myshkin?
18:15	wahanui	well, Myshkin is more than articulate enough without me performing his interior monologue.
18:15	wizzyrea	wahanui++
18:16	jcamins	lol
18:16		That was remarkably appropriate.
18:16		Chester is my client's cat.
18:16		s/cat/cloud of fur/
18:16		He's blue. I had never known cats came in blue before.
18:16	rangi	ok, gotta go catch my bus, back from the bus
18:19	cait	a blue cat?
18:20		are you feeling wlel jared?
18:20	jcamins	cait: no, seriously. Apparently British short hair cats can come in blue.
18:22	cait	proove?
18:22	jcamins	I'm sure he'll just look gray in a photo, but I'll try.
18:23		Guillaume1 left #koha
18:23	jwagner	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F[…]ish_blue_hugo.jpg
18:24		skushner joined #koha
18:25		Soupermanito joined #koha
18:25	jcamins	cait: http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net[…]7_136499197_n.jpg
18:28	cait	aaw
18:28		cute
18:28		and he might be blue
18:28		you can do a lot of things with gimp...
18:28	jcamins	lol
18:29		sophie_m left #koha
18:32	rangi	back
18:32	cait	wb rangi
18:32	rangi	thanks
18:32	jcamins	Welcome back.
18:36	sekjal	anyone familiar with Koha's SVC support?
18:36		looking at the new_bib function makes me... nervous
18:37	jcamins	sekjal: not I, but I heard dpavlin was doing stuff with it.
18:37	sekjal	the add_bib subroutine explicitly deletes all incoming item record fields.... no comment as to why
18:37	cait	there is a page on the wiki
18:38		with documentation about it
18:38	jcamins	sekjal: actually, I can explain that.
18:38	sekjal	cait: reading that, now
18:38	rangi	sekjal it was done to work with biblios
18:38	jcamins	sekjal: rangi already did, never mind. :)
18:38	rangi	so had a specific use case
18:39	cait	so you can't add items using it?
18:39		at all?
18:39	rangi	which may or may not be useful
18:39	cait	oh
18:39	rangi	biblios.org
18:39	cait	I had hoped we could use it to create ill records and items
18:39		ILL
18:39	rangi	not biblio records
18:39		you might be able to
18:39	jcamins	cait: you could modify it.
18:40	cait	eew.
18:40		heh
18:40		guess I will get there at some point
18:40	rangi	biblios is dead along with google gears
18:40	gmcharlt	sekjal: the reasoning was to avoid having new_bib actually create items
18:40		so it's a little biblios-specific in that sense
18:41	jcamins	sekjal: the biblios code is on github.
18:41	gmcharlt	in context, letting it accept any old 952 and try to create item records from it ... was not needed
18:41		but even if you think about Koha itself
18:41	cait	would it be hard to add it as an option?
18:41	gmcharlt	I'd rather that one have to do a PUT /bibs/new_item
18:41		to create an item record
18:42	sekjal	I ask because there is an existing implementation of an OCLC Connexion Gateway for Koha which makes use of the SVC interface
18:42	gmcharlt	rather than have it be a side effect of adding a new bib
18:42	rangi	however chrisdothall and I have some patches to use the svc/ space for other things (json from reports) so fixing/documenting the other files in there would be great
18:42	jcamins	sekjal: https://github.com/ccatalfo/biblios_old
18:43	rangi	sekjal: thanks for the qa on bug 929 ill look at that last patch after meetings today
18:43	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=929 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
18:43	rangi	not sure why I didn't apply
18:43		I = it
18:43	sekjal	I applied it on top of the other 4
18:43		should it have gone straight onto master?
18:43	rangi	hmm nope
18:44		like that should have worked
18:44	sekjal	something about lacking the necessary blobs and hashes
18:44	rangi	hmm
18:44		ah well should be able to fix it :)
18:44		plugins/filters are cool :)
18:46	jcamins	Plugins/filters++
18:46	rangi	I did another one, for memcaching rendered template includes
18:47		but that depends on Koha::Cache
18:47	jcamins	bug 929
18:47	cait	tt is very cool
18:47		I love it
18:49	rangi	filters are easy to write
18:50	sekjal	idea: new svc function: stage_bib
18:50		which doesn't filter items, and puts the biblio in the reservoir first, with a set of matching rules
18:51	rangi	that sounds plausible
18:53	sekjal	would need to post not only the record, but also the matching rule, and perhaps something to indicate the behaviours
18:55	rangi	maybe as xml/yaml/sgml/m5/lisp/prolog
18:55		(the first 2 maybe)
18:55	cait	lol
18:55	jcamins	prolog++
18:55	rangi	so the biblio, with some conf
18:55	jcamins	In prolog.
18:55	rangi	rather than a bunch of param
18:56	jcamins	Which would not be in prolog.
18:56	rangi	heh
18:56		I haven't written prolog since 1992
18:57	jcamins	rangi: looks like this is your lucky year!
18:57	rangi	not even ow
18:58		(nz slang ill find you pronounciation when at my desk)
18:58		speaking of which
18:58		my stop bbiab
18:59	gmcharlt	sekjal: not that there's any real requirement to stick to strict RESTful semantics
18:59		but how about
18:59		PUT /svc/reservoir (to stage a but)
18:59		or
18:59		PUT /svc/import_batch
19:00		PUT /svc/import_batch/new_bib
19:00	cait	gmcharlt: happy new year :)
19:00	jcamins	gmcharlt: happy new year!
19:01		gmcharlt: BTW, C4::UploadedFile is really nicely done.
19:01	gmcharlt	cait: jcamins: and a happy new your to you
19:01		er, new year
19:01	sekjal	gmcharlt: fine by me... though, I need to confirm if staging is the desired behaviour, or if people just want the record to add/overwrite automatically
19:01	gmcharlt	sekjal: if it's the latter, then there are a couple options I suggest
19:02		first being writing a web service to identify patches
19:02		*matches
19:02		e.g, POST a bib, get its matches
19:02		then update the bib
19:02		secondly, to extend the noun-y semantics to include matchpoints other than the bib ID
19:03		e.g., POST /bib/isbn/123456789000x
19:05	rangi	back
19:08		libsysguy joined #koha
19:29		edveal joined #koha
19:30	rangi	ohh the last 929 one is katrin's ahh maybe i messed it up when i signed off
19:30	* rangi	checks
19:32	huginn	New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7271] Revert getitems default sort to homebranch instead of holding branch <http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7271>
19:32	rangi	hmm jcamins got 5 mins?
19:32		http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]ug.cgi?id=929#c17
19:32	huginn	04Bug 929: enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , See details of a budget
19:33	rangi	can you check im not doing something odd?
19:33	jcamins	rangi: the question is whether the last one applies on top of master + the previous patches?
19:34	rangi	yep
19:34		checkout master
19:34		apply all 5
19:34		is what i did
19:34	jcamins	Checking now.
19:35	rangi	thank you
19:35	* rangi	loves these bugs, nz + germany + connecticut + ny so far
19:36	cait	:)
19:37	rangi	and now the TT filter is passed QA
19:37	edveal	As I am wondering what the best way is to hide link within the staff site, specifically the "Most Circulated Items" report link.
19:37	rangi	i can fix bug 7402 with it!
19:37	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7402 normal, P3, ---, chris, ASSIGNED , invoice not showing received titles
19:37	jcamins	No problems here.
19:37	rangi	edveal: hide from everyone?
19:37		jcamins: cool thanks
19:37	jcamins	There should be five patches, right?
19:37	rangi	yup
19:38	edveal	I can clarify but as I understand it yes from everyone.
19:38	rangi	css
19:38	cait	you can use some jquery to do that - or css
19:38		^^ what rangi says
19:38	edveal	Thanks.
19:39	rangi	you may have to edit the template to put it in a span or a div with an id
19:39		to make it easier to do
19:39		but thats a good change anyway
19:39		ids on everything i say
19:39	edveal	Don't want to mess with the template if I can avoid it.
19:39	rangi	no, that change should go upstream
19:39	wizzyrea	edveal: you can probably select on text in the href
19:39	oleonard	$("a[href='/cgi-bin/koha/reports/cat_issues_top.pl']").parent().remove();
19:39	wizzyrea	or that
19:40	jcamins	edveal: just send in a patch. I'm sure it'd get signed off quickly.
19:40	oleonard	edveal: Have you seen the jQuery library on the wiki?
19:40	* rangi	still wants ids on everything :)
19:40	* jcamins	thinks CSS would be better.
19:41	rangi	faster anyway
19:41	edveal	Yes, I have seen the library but thought I would bounce it off this group before hunting around in there.
19:41	oleonard	jcamins: CSS would work if you had an id
19:41	* rangi	points up there ^^
19:41	rangi	:)
19:41	jcamins	oleonard: yes, I'm saying edveal should add an id and and use CSS.
19:41		Better.
19:42	* oleonard	would sign off on that
19:42	* rangi	too
19:42	cait	me too
19:42	rangi	twice in fact
19:42		and with sugar on top
19:42	wizzyrea	can change it to the ID after tho ;)
19:42		make ppls happy now + make us happy too!
19:50	slef	bleargh... http://boingboing.net/2012/01/[…]ont-like-the.html PayPal: if you don't like the violin you bought, smash it and we'll give you your money back
19:51	jcamins	slef: charming, isn't it?
19:51	slef	I'm looking at how we take money for kohacon-related things again. I think we may end up with paypal involved, at least until we hit a threshhold. I wish we didn't, but alternatives suck too.
19:52	jcamins	slef: yeah, I've been persuaded that PayPal is not the way to go for receiving electronic payments.
19:52		slef: my solution was to refuse electronic payments, something that unfortunately is not an option in your case.
19:54	slef	jcamins: I think when we hit our sponsorship target, I will accept bank transfers too, but not before else our sponsorship-collecting fees will be higher (I HATE ALL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS BECAUSE OF STUFF LIKE THIS)
19:55		I wish more UK credit unions and building societies offered business accounts.
19:55	jcamins	As far as I know, credit unions in the US don't offer business accounts.
19:56	* oleonard	had never heard the term "building society" before
19:56	rangi	really?
19:56		we have those here too
19:57	oleonard	Ah, Wikipedia says the US version is a Savings and Loan.
19:57	* jcamins	doesn't know what a savings and loan is.
19:57	schuster	Those all dissappeared in the 80's didn't they?
19:58	* jcamins	has always wondered.
19:58	oleonard	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S[…]tion#Decline_of_S.26Ls
20:02		kathryn joined #koha
20:04	huginn	New commit(s) needsignoff: [Bug 7402] invoice not showing received titles <http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7402>
20:07	rangi	i love TT filters
20:07	* jcamins	too
20:08	rangi	http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]=7041&action=diff <-- made of win
20:08	jcamins	Especially ones that unpollute C4 by eliminating C4::XSLT.
20:08		Nice!
20:08	cait	TT++
20:09		rangi++ for making the switch happen, and chrisdothall++ of course
20:09	jcamins	TT filters?
20:09	wizzyrea	oh snaps
20:09	jcamins	TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate.
20:09		TT filters?
20:09	wahanui	TT filters are a brilliant idea, and everyone should be using them wherever possible and appropriate.
20:09	cait	heh :)
20:09		chris_n joined #koha
20:10	* wizzyrea	sees what you did there
20:12	oleonard	Hmmm.. System preference to edit SIP2 responses for errors like expired patron, debarred, etc?
20:12	rangi	?
20:13	oleonard	Overdrive shows the error message it gets from Koha if the patron's account is expired: PATRON EXPIRED. Not very friendly.
20:13	jcamins	cait: if you question that this cat is blue, you should see my formerly-black trousers.
20:13		kathryn joined #koha
20:13	cait	jcamins: lol
20:14		oleonard: perhaps better have a separate interface for it - but would like it
20:14		chris_n joined #koha
20:16	gmcharlt	oleonard: FUD of the day -- Koha is making patrons expire!
20:17		but to answer your comment seriously, yeah, an interface to edit SIP2 messages would be nice; there are some similar requests floating out there for Evergreen
20:17	sekjal	oleonard: standard messages could be added to either the Constants.pm, or a Messages.pm,
20:18		then have them look up sysprefs. if they exist, use, else fall back to defaults
20:18	oleonard	The SIP2 messages are the only way for us to communicate to the patron why they couldn't log in, since the rest of the Overdrive system is closed to us
20:18	sekjal	and wouldn't it be nice to change/remove that "Greetings from Koha." message?
20:18	gmcharlt	sekjal: one quibble - Constants.pm / Messages.pm wouldn't be (inherently) translateable
20:19	sekjal	true
20:19		but it's not now... and at least the syspref values could be edited to match local languages
20:20	gmcharlt	but a strings file that belonged to SIPServer itself, on the other hand...
20:20		eh, if we had hooks to customize strings, may as well make them fully translateable from the get-go
20:22	wizzyrea	^^
20:22	* rangi	heads off to the reserve bank
20:22	rangi	bbiab
20:22	wizzyrea	gl with them
20:23	rangi	setting up single sign on
20:23		so all good
20:23	* rangi	is gone
20:23	cait	about the messages
20:23		translatability would be a plus
20:23		I think the vendors we worked with use their software
20:24		to translate what they get from koha into something that makes more sense
20:24		some things don't give nice feedback though and were a bit of a problem
20:28	oleonard	Speaking of which, Bug 7396 needs signoff but I'm not sure how one tests
20:28	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7396 minor, PATCH-Sent, ---, ian.walls, NEW , Debarred message not displayed over SIP2
20:29	sekjal	testing SIP2 is always a huge pain
20:30	slef	jcamins: I think the theory of building societies used to be that the community put all its money in a pot, built a few houses with less reliance on the bankers, then as the first wave repaid, newer borrowers could build their homes. Cooperation in action!
20:30	gmcharlt	sekjal: one thign that would help testing the bug would be identifying whether the relevant message is the patron information request, the checkout message, or both
20:30		oleonard: testing SIP2 can be done from telnet
20:31		typical approach is to copy and paste lines and examine the responses
20:31		I can feed you a couple in a momenty
20:31	jcamins	slef: sounds like a good idea to me.
20:35	slef	jcamins: trouble here was in the 1980s/90s that a majority of savers and borrowers of about a dozen societies were convinced that all this member control was a problematic overhead and they sold out to banks and other capitalists.
20:36		jcamins: none of the demutualised dozen survives as an independent institution any more and very few survive even as a shopfront brand, although one may soon be bought by the UK's largest co-op.
20:37		jcamins: also, the largest failed UK bank, Northern Rock, was one of them.
20:37		aaaany way ;)
20:37	* jcamins	would've thought the Bank of Scotland would be the largest failed bank.
20:38	slef	didn't actually fail
20:38	wizzyrea	I'm trying to test the receipts dev on bug 7001 - and I see this: http://screencast.com/t/1Uc1a6FPFbt
20:38	huginn	04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7001 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, srdjan, ASSIGNED , User Configurable Slips
20:38	wizzyrea	I suspect I'm doing something wrong.
20:38	slef	got into trouble, sold a chunk to gov.uk
20:38		but still technically a working bank
20:39		I think NR was completely taken by UK Financial Asset Management = gov.uk's proxy
20:45	wizzyrea	is that a mysql version thing?
20:46		seneca joined #koha
20:46	jcamins	Yikes! I've never seen anything like that.
20:46		And with that thought, I'm going home.
20:46		Good night, #koha.
20:46		Wish us luck.
20:46	wizzyrea	ha later
20:46		gl
20:46	seneca	Anyone know what Perl module supplies Locale/Currency/Format.pm?
20:46	jcamins	Thanks.
20:46		Locale::Currency?
20:46	seneca	(Oh yeah, Happy New Year, everyone!)
20:47		is it that easy? ;)
20:47	jcamins_away	seneca: think so.
20:47	wizzyrea	or package
20:47		liblocale-currency-format-perl
20:47	jcamins_away	^^ better.
20:47	* wizzyrea	had to look it up
20:47	wizzyrea	i typed in "debian package locale currency format" (no quotes)
20:48	seneca	I did the same thing, but that package isn't being found by apt...
20:48	slef	nooo
20:48	seneca	trying the cpan module
20:48	slef	use the file search on http://packages.debian.org ?
20:48	sekjal	anyone use the Transfers and Transfers to Receive pages in Circ?
20:49	slef	sekjal: surely someone must else they wouldn't have been written?</useless>
20:49	seneca	I think that "apt-cache search" searches the descriptions from packages.debian.org
20:49	sekjal	slef: could be vestigial
20:50	oleonard	sekjal: I seem to recall libraries using them to move items between "virtual" branches
20:50	slef	seneca: no, it's only the locally-cached listings and only for the currently-installed distributions
20:50	oleonard	(branches used as shelving locations I think)
20:50	slef	s/installed/configured
20:50	sekjal	I think there is a problem with using branch transfers and automatic item return
20:51		if you transfer a material from it's homebranch A to branch B, then try to check it in, if HomeOrHoldingBranchReturn is set to 'homebranch', it immediately asks you to return it
20:51		instead of clearing the transfer and "accepting" the material
20:51	slef	My apt-cache finds this package: liblocale-currency-format-perl - Perl functions for formatting monetary values
20:51	sekjal	so checkin must not be the right action to "accept" a transfer
20:51	slef	seneca: are you on squeeze?
20:51	sekjal	I think that, odd as it seems, "cancel transfer" is the right action
20:52	wizzyrea	I think you're right
20:52	seneca	lenny still
20:52	slef	seneca: lenny end of life next month, you know?
20:52	seneca	I know...
20:53	wizzyrea	sekjal we use those pages
20:53	slef	seneca: upgrade, or backport that package for an easier upgrade later
20:53		seneca: apt-get source --build liblocale-currency-format-perl # if all else is configured
20:54	sekjal	wizzyrea: how to you 'receive' a transfer that was initiated from the branch transfers page?
20:54	wizzyrea	afaik you just check it in, and it says "not checked out"
20:54	slef	seneca: (a deb-src line for squeeze, dpkg-dev installed and probably other stuff I forget)
20:54	sekjal	wizzyrea: do you have automatic item return on?
20:54	wizzyrea	yes, I believe so, let me double check
20:55	slef	hehe... not what I thought: http://www.evergreencoop.com/
20:55		cait left #koha
20:55	wizzyrea	yes, we do
20:55	sekjal	and set to return to homebranch?
20:55	wizzyrea	yep
20:56	sekjal	ugh
20:56		I don't know
20:57		I think there is some data funkiness complicating my test case
20:57	wizzyrea	what is this in response to?
20:57		the 1st question
20:57		the first question?
20:57	wahanui	the first question is "What are you trying to do?"
20:57	sekjal	a partner library is having some difficulties getting stuff moved between their branches and bookmobile
20:58	wizzyrea	hmm
20:59		this is my interpretation of what you told me you were doing: http://screencast.com/t/q3NxANVX8S
20:59		or what you were trying to do
21:00		without the mistake of course ;)
21:00	* oleonard	goes to watch the video of wizzyrea's interpretive dance
21:00	wizzyrea	which reminds me of "how you dance to dubstep"
21:00		1. wait for the drop
21:00		2. convulse wildly
21:02	sekjal	wizzyrea: that is exactly it
21:03		only, I'm getting a "transfer to HOMEBRANCH" message instead of "not checked out"
21:03	wizzyrea	hmm
21:03		so is there a hypothetical library C in there somewhere?
21:03	sekjal	possibly
21:03		or, it could be that the item is already at branch B
21:03	wizzyrea	like, the item is at library A, should be at library B, but is really at library C?
21:03	* wizzyrea	can create that too
21:04	wizzyrea	I happen to know that misroutes can cause all sorts of funky
21:04		especially after a couple of checkind
21:04		checkins
21:04		double misroutes usually make transfers go away
21:04		and the items get stuck wherever they are
21:05	sekjal	we seriously need to revisit our logic behind item transfers...
21:05		unfortunately, it's wicked complex, and every library will want a slightly different workflow
21:06	wizzyrea	true
21:06		but, at the same time
21:06		I think there are more similarities than subtle differences.
21:10		and we have the building blocks for almost all of it
21:11	sekjal	there are so many variables to track: who owns the book? where is it now? where is supposed to be, and why?
21:11	wizzyrea	right, branchtransfers could generate a whole lot more metadata
21:11		I was just discussing today
21:11		adding a "check status" function to the transfers page
21:11	sekjal	homebranch and holdingbranch answer the first two questions
21:12		if we used branch transfers to answer the third, we may be all set
21:12	pastebot	"gmcharlt" at 65.15.86.218 pasted "for oleonard: how to test SIP" (31 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/185
21:12	wizzyrea	gmcharlt++
21:12	gmcharlt	(and yes, sekjal's patch works0
21:13	oleonard	gmcharlt++
21:13	* gmcharlt	muses how well the debarred message would play with the patrons of a law library
21:14	wizzyrea	also, fines messages go in that "messages" field as well
21:14		amount owed, or something
21:15	* oleonard	will have to test tomorrow... quitting time
21:23	wizzyrea	bye - (that's what I get for not paying attention)
21:29		nengard left #koha
21:31	rangi	back
21:31		man i should go to meetings more often, you guys fix everything when im not here
21:31	wizzyrea	lulz
21:48		kathryn joined #koha
21:50	rangi	gmcharlt: im gonna steal your how to test SIP instructions and put them on the wiki
21:50		gmcharlt++
21:50	gmcharlt	thief!
21:50		;)
21:50	rangi	heh
21:50	gmcharlt	rangi++
21:52	wizzyrea	yes rangi++
21:52		Also, I was trying to think of new FAQ's
21:58	sekjal	night, #koha
21:59	rangi	http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]sting_with_Telnet
21:59	wizzyrea	woooooot
22:03		gaetan_B joined #koha
22:06		wizzyrea1 joined #koha
22:07	slef	whatever us or code4lib do with registrations, we still beat the London Olympics - another goof announced today
22:08	rangi	heh
22:09	slef	http://m.itn.co.uk/36283_120104olympics04.html
22:23	wizzyrea	oh who added the bit to the wiki re: the 3M emulator!
22:23	rangi	not me
22:23	wizzyrea	that's awesoem.
22:23		so great I can't spell.
22:23	rangi	heh
22:23	wizzyrea	dpavlin++
22:24		history ftw.
22:25		Brooke joined #koha
22:26	Brooke	o/
22:26	wizzyrea	heya
22:32		libsysguy left #koha
22:35	slef	surely it should be 3Mulator?
22:47		edveal left #koha
22:51	mle	http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ack-and-white.jpg anyone got the vector art here?
22:51	wizzyrea	I don't
22:51	mle	:p
22:52		maximep left #koha
22:54	rangi	mle: ill ask our designers
22:54		they used something to create this
22:55		http://www.kohacon10.org.nz/st[…]scoverer/koha.png
22:55	wizzyrea	oh I rather like that lil logo better
22:56		is fancy
22:56	slef	hrm shouldn't we have the source code for the logo in git? ;)
22:56	wizzyrea	Yes, we should
22:57		if we can find it
22:57	slef	what do you mean it's not been catalogued?
22:58	wizzyrea	i have never seen a vector art copy of it
22:58	slef	so if it's not in the acq pile, it didn't exist?
23:09	mle	rangi: that is a pretty logo.
23:11	rangi	you are welcome to it, if you want to change the 0 to a 2 :)
23:13	* mle	gets the Tippex
23:13	rangi	hehe
23:14		^H2
23:14	wizzyrea	i actually really like the intricacy of that logo
23:14		really really
23:14		I think we should adopt it
23:14		omg my clone
23:14	rangi	lisa did it
23:23		mle joined #koha
23:28		mle joined #koha
23:39		chris_n` joined #koha

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