myacpl.orgyahoo. i think any Koha library has a stake.← Previous day | Today | Next day → | Search | Index
All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 00:03 | reed_ left #koha | |
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| 01:46 | brendan | evening |
| 01:48 | chris | SelfishMa: sorry for the late answer, you use zebra right? |
| 02:36 | casper joined #koha | |
| 02:37 | casper | how can i enable thai language on the OPAC/ |
| 02:41 | casper left #koha | |
| 02:59 | SelfishMa | chris: yes |
| 03:00 | hmm...why is my nick shortened? did the IRC server software change? | |
| 03:00 | chris | yes it did |
| 03:00 | we now have channel services | |
| 03:00 | like that | |
| 03:01 | :) | |
| 03:01 | SelfishMa | ha |
| 03:02 | chris: so, any ideas? | |
| 03:03 | chris | yeah if its zebra, then you need to edit some config files |
| 03:03 | and reindex | |
| 03:04 | i just have to patch a server, and then ill find the files | |
| 03:04 | SelfishMa | no worries |
| 03:04 | Think I may have figured part of it out but not certain | |
| 03:34 | reed left #koha | |
| 03:40 | brendan | SelfishMa - try looking at the record.abs, bib1.att and ccl.properties |
| 03:40 | those three files work in conjunction for building the indexes for zebra | |
| 03:40 | chris | what he said :) |
| 03:40 | brendan | those are burned on the back on my eyelids |
| 03:40 | SelfishMa | cool |
| 03:41 | brendan | sorry not cool ;) |
| 03:41 | heh | |
| 03:43 | SelfishMa | ok, there any docs for those files? |
| 04:01 | brendan | not that I know of |
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| 07:22 | kf | morning koha |
| 07:24 | Ropuch | Morning kf [; |
| 07:24 | hdl | hi kf |
| 07:25 | kf | hi Ropuch and hdl |
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| 07:33 | Ropuch | Hi hdl |
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| 09:51 | chris | evening |
| 10:05 | Ropuch | Hi chris |
| 10:38 | kf | hi chris |
| 10:47 | * chris | is watching some tour de france before bed |
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| 11:23 | kf | hi again #koha |
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| 11:30 | kf | hi jwagner |
| 11:37 | druthb | hi, kf! |
| 11:37 | * kf | waves to druthb |
| 11:40 | jwagner | Hi kf |
| 12:17 | owen joined #koha | |
| 12:19 | druthb | hi, owen |
| 12:19 | owen | Hi |
| 12:20 | I have nothing to report at this time. | |
| 12:25 | jwagner | Were we expecting something??? |
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| 12:46 | owen | kf around? |
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| 12:48 | kf | here |
| 12:49 | owen | Hi kf, I've been doing some updates to tools/holidays.tmpl and it looks like there are a lot of untranslatable strings in the javascript |
| 12:49 | Is that something you've run into? | |
| 12:50 | Well, maybe just a few | |
| 12:50 | kf | owen: let me check |
| 12:51 | I have not filed a bug for this, but you are right, there are a lot of strings | |
| 12:52 | the whole calendar is English | |
| 12:52 | owen | That's not what I was looking at, but I'm not surprised |
| 12:52 | I'm almost positive there is a way to change the language on the calendar | |
| 12:53 | kf | perhaps a laguage file or something |
| 12:53 | only one of our libraries is trained to use the calendar, because they have hebrew holidays I know nothing about :) | |
| 12:54 | hm | |
| 12:54 | will you file a bug? | |
| 12:55 | owen | Now that I think about it I think I saw one... |
| 12:55 | kf | hm and is the "about the calendar" supposed to be a link? |
| 12:55 | owen | The ? in the upper left |
| 12:56 | kf | the explanations (click on + when adding a new holiday) are not translatable either |
| 12:56 | owen: yes, but there is a line of text at the bottom | |
| 12:56 | ah, stupid me | |
| 12:56 | ok | |
| 12:56 | owen | My work will address the explanations |
| 12:56 | kf | ok |
| 12:56 | owen | I see some English day of the week names in the Javascript, but I'm not sure they're output to the screen anywhere |
| 12:57 | kf | hm perhaps when you add a weekly holiday |
| 12:57 | owen | Ah, yes you're right |
| 12:58 | kf | the dates look ok, dd/mm/yyyy |
| 12:58 | that's good | |
| 13:02 | owen | The calendar has it's own language file, but it only comes with the English version |
| 13:04 | Here we go: Bug 2307. Assigned to me, even (why didn't it show up in my list?) | |
| 13:04 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, P3, ---, oleonard, RESOLVED REMIND, Patch for international js-calendar |
| 13:04 | owen | Oh, because of "resolved remind" |
| 13:07 | hdl: Do you provide a different calendar translation for your libraries? Or do they get the English-language calendar? | |
| 13:08 | hdl | no different calendar translation |
| 13:10 | owen | Don't they complain about that? :) |
| 13:13 | hdl | owen: there are so many critical demands that they don't |
| 13:14 | owen | I guess kf's librarians aren't complaining loudly either :) |
| 13:14 | CGI183 joined #koha | |
| 13:15 | hdl | owen: access to holidays is not quite that frequent |
| 13:15 | kf | owen: hdl is right - there are other things with higher priority |
| 13:15 | owen | Just to be clear, the same issue comes up wherever there is a calendar popup |
| 13:15 | kf | bug 2188 |
| 13:16 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2188 major, P3, ---, gmcharlt, REOPENED, Accounts.pm outputs untranslatable English strings |
| 13:16 | kf | thats a real bad translation bug |
| 13:16 | and old :( | |
| 13:17 | jcamins | Good morning, #koha |
| 13:20 | kf | owen: how hard is it to add a translation file for the calendar? |
| 13:21 | owen | It may end up being easier to copy the language strings from calendar-en.js to calendar.inc so that they can be processed along with other strings |
| 13:21 | kf | in po files? |
| 13:22 | owen | Yes |
| 13:22 | http://git.koha-community.org/[…]d774ed0;hb=master | |
| 13:22 | That's what the language configuration file looks like. It's not that big | |
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| 13:33 | CGI183 | I am having issue when I try to print barcode labels with bibliographic info on them. Koha has options to do it but everytime I export the information into a PDF, only the barcode or the bibliographic info shows up but never both. Does anyone have any suggestions? |
| 13:34 | kf | owen: sorry, phone call |
| 13:40 | CGI183 | Can anyone help with the barcode/bibliographic info issues? |
| 13:40 | owen | CGI183: I don't know anything about it, but if you want help from someone who does you'll need to specify your platform and Koha version |
| 13:41 | kf: Moving the calendar strings into calendar.inc seems to work okay from the point of view of the calendar's functionality. I'll submit a patch and maybe if you have time you could test it | |
| 13:43 | CGI183 | I'm running Koha 3.01 |
| 13:43 | What options are there for platforms? (Sorry, I'm a novice at best) | |
| 13:46 | I'm running it on Linux | |
| 13:47 | kf | owen: sure :) |
| 13:50 | CGI183 | I guess I'll check back later |
| 13:50 | CGI183 left #koha | |
| 13:50 | kf | owen: had an idea yesterday, not sure if others would find it usefull, but for checkout it could be useful to enter something like +28 in sticky due date and make koha calculate the right date |
| 13:51 | owen | Sounds like a neat idea |
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| 13:56 | kf | owen: will try to write an enh request some time |
| 13:56 | preparing presentation now | |
| 13:57 | tomascohe joined #koha | |
| 13:58 | jwagner is now known as jwag_mtg | |
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| 14:01 | owen | Patch submitted for Bug 2307, but I didn't test it with the translation script |
| 14:01 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, Calendar widget cannot be translated |
| 14:17 | kf | owen: I have to prepare for a presentation today, but can perhaps test on laptop later |
| 14:17 | owen | Thanks kf, I'm not in any rush |
| 14:19 | kf | yes, string freeze... |
| 14:36 | owen: I like the screenshot | |
| 14:36 | perhaps place the hints under the calendar? | |
| 14:37 | owen | Then the hints would be down off the screen when the entry form is displayed |
| 14:43 | kf | hm ok |
| 14:43 | owen | Does anyone know why the opac detail's XSL file would use "marc:datafield[@tag=490][@ind1=0]" to display the 490 tag? |
| 14:43 | Why the "[@ind1=0]" ? | |
| 14:44 | jcamins | I do know, actually. |
| 14:44 | That is so that Koha will display the traced heading whenever possible. | |
| 14:44 | The 440 has been replaced by a 490/830 combination. | |
| 14:46 | Whether that is the correct behavior is open to some debate. | |
| 14:46 | owen | I have no idea what any of that means :) |
| 14:46 | jcamins | http://bibwild.wordpress.com/2[…]ies-data-in-marc/ |
| 14:47 | That won't answer your question, but there's some debate for you. | |
| 14:47 | jwag_mtg is now known as jwagner | |
| 14:47 | jcamins | Basically, when we catalog a book that's in a series, we transcribe the *exact* wording into the 490. |
| 14:48 | But, since that's lousy authority control, we also have the option of "tracing" the heading, so that people can do left-anchored searches (in theory... I don't think Koha does this). That would go into the 830, and in principle each library should have an authority file so that the cataloger can figure out the proper form. | |
| 14:48 | The 440 used to combine both those features. | |
| 14:48 | Well, kind of. | |
| 14:49 | owen | What does that have to do with [@ind1=0] ? |
| 14:49 | jcamins | Oh, sorry. |
| 14:49 | Ind1 indicates whether there's a "traced" version of the heading. | |
| 14:49 | If it's set to 0, that means there is no alternate form. | |
| 14:50 | If it's set to 1, there's an 8xx with a traced form, which would be preferable from a linking point of view. | |
| 14:50 | kf | jcamins, owen: we had code to do this in our xslt |
| 14:50 | I have it on my todo list to write a patch | |
| 14:50 | I think its active in hfjs.bsz-bw.de | |
| 14:50 | jcamins | There's no way of marking the relationship between a given 490 and 8xx field, so displaying the 490 and searching on the 8xx is problematic. |
| 14:51 | kf | not sure how it was solved, but atm they do not displa |
| 14:51 | y | |
| 14:51 | its some of the things I had no time to work on :( | |
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| 14:51 | kf | it's one... |
| 14:53 | owen | So the current version checks for indication that there is an 8xx tag even though there is no mechanism for display the 8xx tags :| |
| 14:53 | jcamins | owen: Did my explanation help at all? |
| 14:53 | Right. | |
| 14:53 | Well that's problematic. | |
| 14:54 | owen | That blog post and the comments on it are helpful too |
| 14:54 | jcamins | Oh good. |
| 14:54 | It's a very serious problem. | |
| 14:54 | ... at least if you're a cataloger. | |
| 14:54 | owen | As usual with MARC I'm a little sorry I asked ;) |
| 14:55 | jcamins | Fair enough. |
| 14:55 | owen | jcamins: I'm trying to figure out what the loose ends on Bug 2704 are |
| 14:55 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2704 major, P3, ---, oleonard, NEW, 440 Display Issues |
| 14:56 | owen | One commenter says "If we don't parse the 800-830 fields, then the @ind1=0 filter should be dropped, imo." |
| 14:56 | wizzyrea | http://blog.melchua.com/2010/0[…]from-the-outside/ interesting article |
| 14:57 | kf | owen: I could send you our xslt file it that helps? I think it works in our catalog |
| 14:57 | trea joined #koha | |
| 14:57 | owen | kf: I'd certainly be interested in seeing it |
| 14:57 | kf | but my boss wrote the code, so I m not sure about the implementation |
| 14:57 | jcamins | I agree with that, but I think there are also implications for zebra indexing that might not have been addressed. |
| 14:58 | kf | email? |
| 14:58 | owen | oleonardmyacpl.org |
| 14:58 | jcamins | Actually, it looks like we have the indexing correct. |
| 14:58 | kf | ok, give me a minute |
| 15:00 | owen: ah, we have records for traced series | |
| 15:01 | owen: we have a unique identifier to search with | |
| 15:01 | but I hope the solution is flexible enough to work withoug | |
| 15:01 | without | |
| 15:02 | trea left #koha | |
| 15:02 | trea joined #koha | |
| 15:04 | wizzyrea | ooh, trea |
| 15:05 | trea | o/ |
| 15:08 | owen | jcamins: Any thoughts on the elimination of the @ind1=0 check in the absence of 8xx handling? |
| 15:09 | jcamins | ++ |
| 15:09 | It would be preferable to support 8xx, but I don't think that's going to make it into 3.2. | |
| 15:10 | kf | owen: mail sent |
| 15:10 | owen | Thanks kf! |
| 15:10 | kf | I tried to explain some things... plz ask |
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| 15:44 | kf | @karma bywater |
| 15:44 | munin | kf: Karma for "bywater" has been increased 6 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 6. |
| 15:44 | kf | bywater++ |
| 15:44 | sekjal | :) |
| 15:45 | kf | koha demos :) |
| 15:46 | wizzyrea | yea, I realized when I typed that, I should have been more accurate |
| 15:46 | er, after I typed it | |
| 15:47 | sekjal | does anyone have an opinion on whether we should continue to track HEAD with the demo, after 3.2 is finalized, or should we stick with the stable release? |
| 15:48 | kf | can we have both? :) |
| 15:49 | sekjal | I don't see why not. |
| 15:51 | kf | bywater++ |
| 15:51 | wizzyrea | yea, let's do both |
| 15:52 | if you don't mind | |
| 15:52 | sekjal | I'll talk to brendan about how we can rig it up once 3.2 is ready |
| 15:53 | wizzyrea | I think it would be neat to say "here's what you get in the tarball" and "here's what we're working on" |
| 15:53 | kf | yep |
| 15:54 | sekjal | yeah, it made more sense to run off HEAD right now, with 3.2 so very close, and all that good code in there that people will need get comfortable with |
| 15:55 | I like the idea of two. that let's people compare Koha to Koha, and decide where they want to be release-wise | |
| 16:09 | jwagner | Bug 3656 -- there was a patch in September 2009 but it's never gone anywhere. Any particular reason? |
| 16:09 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3656 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Specify fields to be omitted from the patron record |
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| 16:11 | owen | jwagner: It was for rel_3_0 |
| 16:12 | kf | I would really like that feature, working with jquery now |
| 16:12 | owen | But actually I don't think it was pushed to rel_3_0 either. At least I don't see mention of it in any emails |
| 16:13 | hdl | owen: no was not applied. |
| 16:13 | jwagner | I've never seen it come through -- I was reviewing my bug reports & noticed it. It's one I'd really like too. |
| 16:13 | owen | jwagner: Have you tried using the patch? |
| 16:13 | hdl | In fact, it was a specific dev for a customer. |
| 16:13 | jwagner | Not yet. It's on my latest cherrypick list. |
| 16:13 | kf | I think it will not work with the new sys pref editor? |
| 16:14 | hdl | kf: I think that jquery could really ease the pain of display/hide. |
| 16:14 | kf | hdl: I'm using jquery now, it works nice, but I think configuration is a better way |
| 16:14 | hdl | kf: TMPL_UNLESS prefixing stuf is really a hassle to maintain and write to. |
| 16:15 | kf | I m a bit worreid about performance with too much jquery |
| 16:15 | hdl | kf: Koha is not optimized for javascript at the moment. |
| 16:15 | owen | Yeah the template changes in that patch make quite a mess. I don't know how else you could do it though |
| 16:16 | hdl | we should use Yslow to profile that a little bit. |
| 16:16 | CGI105 | I'm running Koha 3.01 on Linux and am having difficulties when printing barcodes...calling for specific bibliographic information prevents the printable files from opening. Any suggestions? |
| 16:16 | hdl | for instance js loding is at the beginning of page. |
| 16:16 | Should come to the end of pages. | |
| 16:20 | atz joined #koha | |
| 16:20 | kf | hi atz |
| 16:20 | atz | greets all |
| 16:21 | owen | Hi atz |
| 16:21 | jwagner | Hi atz, long time no see |
| 16:21 | atz | hey, owen. just thinking the same thing. haven't even crossed digital paths for a while |
| 16:22 | druthb | hi, atz! |
| 16:22 | CGI105 | I'm guessing no takers on the issue with printing barcodes...? |
| 16:22 | atz | hey, druthb. how's the east coast? |
| 16:23 | druthb | Doing well! Not so hot and muggy this week, which is nice. Even after a year, I'm still getting used to things, but I love living here. |
| 16:23 | atz | yeah, nothing like DC swamp humidity in west Texas! |
| 16:24 | druthb | nope. And nothing like West Texas' hopeless rednecks in DC--except for tourist visitors. |
| 16:24 | atz | and some congressmen |
| 16:25 | CGI105 left #koha | |
| 16:26 | druthb | heh, yeah. There was an article in the Post this week about imagining a DC without air conditioning--Congress would go home, like they used to a century ago, for three months, which means fewer nonsense laws passed... |
| 16:26 | kf | bug 4438 again - cant delete owner without javascript, can't save with javascript :( |
| 16:26 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4438 major, P5, ---, henridamien, ASSIGNED, incorrect "Budget total exceeds period allocation" error when editing fund |
| 16:34 | hdl left #koha | |
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| 16:41 | kf | nengard: around? |
| 16:46 | owen | kf: I think she's traveling today |
| 16:47 | kf | ah ok, wanted to ask about her filter bug, I closed it now, looked really ok to me |
| 16:54 | davi | Out of Topic |
| 16:54 | About the Affero GPL license | |
| 16:54 | * [Article]: Google pays for Affero ban, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2[…]google_bans_aero/ | |
| 16:55 | "ClipperZ said it was transferring from Google Code to SourceForge because it wanted to use AGPL." | |
| 16:55 | * Incomplete list of projects using the AGPL license: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L[…]_web_applications | |
| 16:56 | * SugarCRM | |
| 16:56 | * Launchpad | |
| 16:57 | * http://identi.ca | |
| 16:58 | atz | didn't google buy sourceforge anyway? |
| 17:00 | hdl joined #koha | |
| 17:02 | brendan | heya atz |
| 17:02 | atz | guess not (yet).... the register story has pretty weak numbers though |
| 17:02 | hey brendan | |
| 17:02 | brendan | happy birthday |
| 17:02 | atz | thx |
| 17:05 | pianohack | bbl |
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| 17:27 | kf | bye #koha |
| 17:27 | kf left #koha | |
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| 17:41 | CGI112 | Anybody there? |
| 17:42 | Chris? Wizzyrea? | |
| 17:42 | owen | Do you have a question CGI112 ? |
| 17:43 | CGI112 | Owen: yeah, I've been trying to get help with printing barcodes and other labels |
| 17:44 | I can't seem to get book titles or authors to print along with the barcodes even though Koha has a setting for it | |
| 17:46 | Whenever I request that a call number, ISBN, or barcode number is printed next to the barcode, everything is fine. However, when I request that an author or title is printed next to the barcode, it says there is an error | |
| 17:50 | jcamins | CGI112: I've never used these features at all, but did you do the MARC Bibliographic framework test under Koha Administration? |
| 17:51 | CGI112 | I don't believe I did. How do I do it? |
| 17:52 | jcamins | On the Administration page (in your staff client) there is a link to "MARC Bibliographic framework test." |
| 17:52 | jwagner left #koha | |
| 17:54 | CGI112 | jcamins: I clicked on the link and it says everything is a-okay |
| 17:54 | jcamins | Well, that's good, anyway. |
| 17:54 | Maybe check your MARC links? | |
| 17:55 | CGI112 | Sorry, I am such a computer novice |
| 17:55 | ...How do I check the MARC links? | |
| 17:57 | brendan joined #koha | |
| 17:59 | CGI112 | jcamins: can I check the links through the administration page? |
| 18:08 | jcamins | Yeah. "Koha to MARC Mapping." |
| 18:08 | Make sure that title says 245. | |
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| 18:15 | CGI112 | Title does say 245...what should author say? |
| 18:15 | jcamins | 100 |
| 18:17 | I'm out of ideas. We don't use the barcode functionality in Koha. | |
| 18:23 | CGI112 | Thanks for the ideas, jcamins. Strangely, its working now. I don't know how long it will continue working but its working now. Do you have any suggestions of who I should talk to if I have problems in the future? |
| 18:26 | jcamins | I'm not sure who uses those features. |
| 18:26 | Maybe send an e-mail to the list? | |
| 18:26 | joetho | cg112: Remember, this is an open source project, and unless you have engaged the services of a support vendor, you are going to have to solve issues like this on your own. This channel is a good source, and so are the email listservs. |
| 18:26 | wizzyrea | chris_n is usually the one who knows most about labels and barcodes |
| 18:27 | joetho | There is almost *always* somebody awake and on this channel. |
| 18:27 | trea | they are in the business of teaching people to fish in this channel |
| 18:27 | wizzyrea | "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" |
| 18:28 | druthb | @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" |
| 18:28 | munin | druthb: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command). |
| 18:28 | joetho | @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" |
| 18:28 | munin | joetho: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command). |
| 18:29 | druthb | @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha" |
| 18:29 | munin | druthb: The operation succeeded. Quote #83 added. |
| 18:29 | druthb | There. |
| 18:29 | joetho | hrrrmph. |
| 18:31 | druthb | @roulette |
| 18:31 | munin | druthb: *click* |
| 18:31 | druthb | @quote random |
| 18:31 | munin | druthb: Quote #49: "wizzyrea: KOHAKONG: Stomping all other ILS's" (added by a user that is no longer registered at 11:20 AM, December 22, 2009) |
| 18:32 | druthb | @quote random |
| 18:32 | munin | druthb: Quote #1: "<pianohacker> resolve, rather, I doubt it needs lotion" (added by gmcharlt at 11:05 PM, May 30, 2009) |
| 18:32 | wizzyrea | hahahaha |
| 18:32 | druthb | @quote random |
| 18:32 | munin | druthb: Quote #25: "<wizzyrea> ha, in #koha we don't pick each other's brains... we git pull them." (added by gmcharlt at 03:40 PM, August 14, 2009) |
| 18:32 | * druthb | falls out of her chair laughing. |
| 18:32 | wizzyrea | i seem to be the queen of the pithy #koha meta quote |
| 18:32 | atz | true |
| 18:33 | jcamins | wizzyrea: you do indeed. You should have a #koha crown. |
| 18:33 | wizzyrea | oh hey atz ! happy birthday a day late! |
| 18:33 | atz | thx! |
| 18:36 | cait | happy birthday :) |
| 18:37 | @quote random | |
| 18:37 | munin | cait: Quote #30: "< pianohacker> Dealing with me can indeed be painful" (added by chris at 05:34 PM, September 02, 2009) |
| 18:37 | cait | owen: still around? |
| 18:37 | owen | Yes |
| 18:38 | cait | want to test your patch, but not sure how to get your patch out of bugzilla in the right format |
| 18:39 | or from the mailing list, I did it once but don't remember how :( | |
| 18:40 | owen | When you click on the attachment in bugzilla does it open a page of plain text? |
| 18:41 | cait | no, a formatted page |
| 18:41 | http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]=2351&action=diff | |
| 18:41 | owen | Oh, don't click the diff link or the details link, click the title of the patch |
| 18:41 | cait | aaah |
| 18:41 | thx owen! | |
| 18:42 | owen | Then you should be able to use the browser's file -> Save as to save it as a patch |
| 18:42 | cait | owen++ |
| 18:43 | sekjal | anyone know the latest on bug 2690? last update was last year |
| 18:43 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2690 critical, P3, ---, gmcharlt, ASSIGNED, Security Vulnerability Gives me Administrative Access |
| 18:44 | bgkriegel joined #koha | |
| 18:45 | atz | I think that is obsolete. gmcharlt would know for certain. |
| 18:45 | gmcharlt | near as I can tell, submitter didn't respond to request for more information |
| 18:46 | sekjal | bug 3652 claims to be a more generalized instance of the bug |
| 18:46 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3652 critical, P5, ---, mjr, NEW, XSS vulnerabilities |
| 18:48 | owen | bug 3652 could also be considered a generalized version of Bug 2600 |
| 18:48 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2600 critical, P3, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, HTML tags in titles not escaped in many places |
| 18:49 | owen | Having chased down many instances of Bug 2600 I'm certainly interested in the possibility of a default_escape of HTML |
| 18:50 | gmcharlt | there would be fewer places to find to explicitly set escape = 0 if we do that |
| 18:50 | owen: would you have time this week to chase them all down? | |
| 18:50 | collum joined #koha | |
| 18:50 | jwagner joined #koha | |
| 18:51 | slef | hi all |
| 18:51 | owen | gmcharlt: You mean prioritize it for 3.2? |
| 18:51 | wizzyrea | cait: as a translation person, have you worked at all with http://blog.glotpress.org |
| 18:52 | gmcharlt | owen: yes - the string freeze, after all, delays most other template changes |
| 18:52 | dpavlin joined #koha | |
| 18:52 | cait | wizzyrea: im not really a translation person, only for koha :) |
| 18:52 | tajoli joined #koha | |
| 18:52 | wizzyrea | ah, okies. |
| 18:53 | owen | gmcharlt: What would require an explicit escape=0? |
| 18:53 | slef | places where html is in the TMPL_VAR |
| 18:53 | cait | wizzyrea: sorry, don't know the project |
| 18:53 | gmcharlt | right - places that are intentionally injecting HTML that way |
| 18:54 | atz | or URL fragments |
| 18:54 | wizzyrea | it's ok :) |
| 18:54 | gmcharlt | there shouldn't be all that many of them, and fewer all the time, but they do exist |
| 18:54 | slef | atz: from memory (danger!) isn't there another escape for that? |
| 18:54 | Colin joined #koha | |
| 18:54 | atz | yes, they would need escape=url (but would be broken by same default move) |
| 18:55 | slef | also ESCAPE=JS |
| 18:55 | same applies | |
| 18:55 | atz | it's good to have *some* kind of default escaping... we've been too sloppy in the past mixing and matching |
| 18:56 | owen | What is the correct change to C4::Output to enable the default escape? |
| 18:56 | atz | if nothing else, it'll break your feature till you pick the correct escaping. |
| 18:56 | slef | it's an even bigger job than when I added the SQL escaping :-( |
| 18:56 | atz | yeah, it affects literally every page and page fragment... |
| 18:57 | slef | owen: default_escape=>'html' in the HTML::Template->new() call |
| 18:58 | might want force_untaint=>1 too | |
| 18:59 | owen | What is that? |
| 18:59 | slef | stops you passing tainted variables to anything with escape="0" set |
| 19:00 | which would be another protection against XSS | |
| 19:00 | owen | Can you give me an example? I don't understand. |
| 19:00 | dpavlin | quick question: against which component to report bugs with ldap? |
| 19:00 | gmcharlt | slef: and what version of Koha does anything with the Perl taint flag? ;) |
| 19:01 | slef | dpavlin: I guess Authentication. Am I right? |
| 19:01 | gmcharlt: owen: ok, one for later. | |
| 19:02 | dpavlin | slef: I would guess same, but here is no such category on http://bugs.koha-community.org :-) |
| 19:02 | * slef | waits for his list mailbox to open... and waits... and waits... |
| 19:02 | gmcharlt | dpavlin: looks like authentication got missed during the changeover |
| 19:02 | * gmcharlt | fixes that |
| 19:03 | slef | dpavlin: Patrons |
| 19:03 | gmcharlt: are you sure? | |
| 19:03 | druthb | off to catch the bus in a few...see ya! |
| 19:03 | druthb left #koha | |
| 19:03 | gmcharlt | slef: quite sure - that component used to exist, but evidently wasn't created |
| 19:03 | atz | wonder where the old bugs ended up then |
| 19:04 | slef | ok |
| 19:04 | anyone going to admit to having an Authentication bug? ;-) | |
| 19:04 | bug 4193 suggests they are stuck in importedbugs | |
| 19:04 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4193 critical, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Authentication with cardnumber/password at intranet allows superlibrarian access |
| 19:05 | gmcharlt | I've created the Authentication component |
| 19:05 | * atz | nod |
| 19:05 | gmcharlt | any volunteers to be the default assignee? |
| 19:05 | chris_n | heya atz |
| 19:05 | chris | yep anything my import couldnt find a component for, got stuck in importedbugs |
| 19:05 | owen | Dang, there goes my plan to resolve all template bugs by removing the component |
| 19:05 | atz | greets chris_n |
| 19:05 | dpavlin | I'm up for assignee role. |
| 19:06 | or at least for Admin Cc (if there is such a thing in bugzilla) because it usually breaks for me :-) | |
| 19:07 | thd-away` is now known as thd | |
| 19:08 | gmcharlt | dpavlin: sure, I'll add you to the CC list for that component |
| 19:08 | PM me your email address, please | |
| 19:08 | thd | gmcharlt: Is there not a meeting now? |
| 19:08 | gmcharlt | thd: I believe we were waiting for you |
| 19:08 | thd | I am here :) |
| 19:09 | after neglecting the time blissfully | |
| 19:09 | for a few minutes | |
| 19:10 | gmcharlt: are you conducting the meeting? | |
| 19:10 | gmcharlt | I'm not really the one who called, but I'm wiling to moderate |
| 19:10 | francharb left #koha | |
| 19:10 | gmcharlt | so |
| 19:11 | page for the meeting is | |
| 19:11 | http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ing,_13_July_2010 | |
| 19:11 | thd | Those with a strong record on one side such as myself should not be trusted. |
| 19:11 | gmcharlt | agenda is |
| 19:11 | 1. Follow-up on actions from General IRC Meeting, 2 June 2010 about the question of upgrading the copyright license for Koha 3.4. | |
| 19:11 | 2. Forming the question. | |
| 19:11 | 3. IRC voting, email ballot, or other ballot type? | |
| 19:11 | let's start with roll call | |
| 19:11 | * gmcharlt | = Galen Charlton, 3.2 RM |
| 19:11 | thd | Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York |
| 19:12 | * slef | = MJ Ray, past RM, worker-member of software.coop, Somerset |
| 19:12 | Colin | = Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe |
| 19:12 | joetho | joetho = Joe Tholen / SEKLS / Kansas |
| 19:12 | * owen | = Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library |
| 19:12 | brendan | brendan gallagher, bywater solutions |
| 19:12 | sekjal | Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions |
| 19:12 | jwagner | Jane Wagner, PTFS |
| 19:12 | tajoli | Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy) |
| 19:12 | * chris_n | = Chris Nighswonger, FBC, 3.2 Release Maintainer |
| 19:12 | atz | \me Joe Atzberger, Equinox |
| 19:12 | * jcamins | = Jared Camins-Esakov, American Numismatic Society and elsewhere |
| 19:12 | collum | Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library |
| 19:12 | * wizzyrea | Liz Rea, NEKLS (lurking) |
| 19:12 | * jcamins | is also just listening |
| 19:13 | dpavlin | Dobrica Pavlinusic, FFZG, Croatia |
| 19:13 | Nate | Nate Curulla; ByWater Solutions |
| 19:13 | rhcl | Greg Lawson - Rolling Hills Consolidated Library |
| 19:13 | chris | chris cormack, RM 3.4, only sorta here got a toddler to get ready for kindergarten |
| 19:15 | fredericd | Frédéric Demians, Tamil |
| 19:15 | * cait | Katrin Fischer, BSZ |
| 19:16 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 19:16 | davi | Davi Diaz, worker for software.coop |
| 19:16 | gmcharlt | I believe that that the first two agenda items amount to the same thing |
| 19:16 | cait | just listening |
| 19:17 | thd | Sorry for the rapid agenda construction. |
| 19:17 | gmcharlt | i.e., framing a question to be decided by vote or other means on the question of whether to change the license for Koha 3.4 |
| 19:17 | thd | I had misremembered the date as 16 July for the meeting. |
| 19:17 | gmcharlt | as near as I can tell, the following options exist or have been proposed |
| 19:17 | namely | |
| 19:17 | * status quo (GPL 2 or later) | |
| 19:17 | * GPL3 | |
| 19:18 | * GPL3 or later | |
| 19:18 | * AGPL3 | |
| 19:18 | * AGPL3 or later | |
| 19:18 | since this issue could be discussed pretty much indefinitely | |
| 19:18 | davi | being it a web application, IMHO we should vote to use "AGPL v3 or later" |
| 19:19 | gmcharlt | I suggest that we use a modified format for this meeting |
| 19:19 | jwagner | Forgive me for treading over old ground -- I haven't been able to keep up with all the messages. Is the Berkeley license somewhere in there, or has it been considered? |
| 19:19 | gmcharlt | namely allot time for each of the options; time for proponents to speak, and time for opponents to speak |
| 19:19 | no, the Berkeley license has not been brought up to my knowledge | |
| 19:20 | atz | jwagner: not afaik |
| 19:20 | jwagner | Should it be? |
| 19:20 | slef | jwagner: I think downgrading GPL2+ contributions to BSD may be difficult. Some past contributors (do we still have Steve Tonneson or pate code in there?) are not generally around. |
| 19:20 | atz | jwagner: also, no, imho |
| 19:21 | thd | jwagner, we can only use a license for the software as a whole which every contributor who has ever been approves or one which can be upgraded from the present license |
| 19:21 | davi | BSD licenses are supported for example by Microsoft, as they can convert software under such license on "privative software", forking and embedding it in their Windows and so on |
| 19:21 | GPL allow the same in web applications | |
| 19:21 | AGPL tries to avoid it in web applications | |
| 19:22 | atz | i think allotted time is a good strategy |
| 19:22 | otherwise we're here forever | |
| 19:22 | gmcharlt | jwagner: if you want to propose it on the mailing lists, fine |
| 19:22 | so, boiling it down to three | |
| 19:22 | 1. GPL3/GPL3+ | |
| 19:22 | jwagner | No, I was just trying to understand the differences. |
| 19:22 | gmcharlt | 2. AGPL3/APLG3+ |
| 19:22 | thd | jwagner: work under the three clause BSD license can be included and is included within Koha. The distinction is about the overall license. |
| 19:22 | gmcharlt | 3. status quo |
| 19:23 | so unless there are objections with the format, I would like somebody who wants to advocate for GPL3 to spend five minutes doing so | |
| 19:23 | followed by five minutes pro-AGPL3 | |
| 19:23 | then five-minutes antii-AGPL3 | |
| 19:23 | then five-minutes anti-GPL3 | |
| 19:23 | slef | I think we should say "3. GPL2+, as before" just in case someone who doesn't know Latin thinks we mean Status Quo the band ;-) |
| 19:23 | brendan | @time |
| 19:23 | munin | brendan: Error: "time" is not a valid command. |
| 19:24 | gmcharlt | we can do pro-/anti status quo (GPL2+) as well |
| 19:24 | thd | do I understand the format to then decide between the subparts of 2 or 3 if chosen? |
| 19:24 | Sorry you are stating a format for discussion not for voting. | |
| 19:24 | gmcharlt | right |
| 19:24 | voting is a separate agenda item | |
| 19:25 | davi | Lot of people have not read the licenses, so they can vote at 'random' |
| 19:25 | gmcharlt | and (I would argue) we can decide on the means for a vote hear, but not take the actual vote during this meeting |
| 19:25 | so ... since I thus far haven't heard any major objections to the format ... | |
| 19:25 | slef | davi, would you like voters to pass a qualification/comprehension test first? |
| 19:25 | joetho | I have tried to educate myself on this topic in general, and have found it to be very challenging. |
| 19:25 | gmcharlt | would a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ care to advocate for it? |
| 19:26 | davi | We can encourage education, as much as possible |
| 19:26 | pianohack left #koha | |
| 19:26 | thd | joetho: I will try to find time post a summary of what the lawyer at SFLC has reported before whatever date we fix for an actual vote. |
| 19:27 | slef | You know, I'm not sure if I'm a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ or not. |
| 19:27 | I've spent most time considering GPL2 v AGPL3 so far. | |
| 19:27 | thd | I could speak in favour of GPL 3+ but not at the expense of AGPL 3+ |
| 19:28 | chris_n | my only motive for promoting GPL3+ would be as a means to get to AGPL3+ |
| 19:28 | davi | I could speak in favour of AGPL 3+ if you want |
| 19:29 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 19:29 | since the most of the discussion has been around the AGPL3 | |
| 19:29 | we'll pass over pro-GPL3 | |
| 19:29 | thd | Let me state that GPL 3 provides everything which AGPL 3 provides except clause 13 for remote network use. |
| 19:29 | gmcharlt | and start with pro-AGPL3/AGPL3+ |
| 19:29 | davi | thd+ |
| 19:30 | clause 13 is key for a web application | |
| 19:30 | gmcharlt | so, thd or davi, please go ahead |
| 19:30 | gregb joined #koha | |
| 19:30 | tomascohe left #koha | |
| 19:30 | thd | after you davi please procede |
| 19:30 | davi | ok |
| 19:31 | It is said even GPLv3+ allow locking users of a web application | |
| 19:31 | as it allow the source code not be published | |
| 19:31 | because there is not actual _distribution_ of the application. | |
| 19:31 | The application is a service. | |
| 19:31 | A web site or web application. | |
| 19:32 | The AGPL v3 + tries to solve this problem by | |
| 19:32 | CGI112 | chris_n: can I talk to you about labels and barcodes? |
| 19:32 | chris_n | CGI112: after the meeting |
| 19:32 | davi | forcing to publish the source code of the web application |
| 19:32 | The AGPL v3 does not talk about the data side of the web application as | |
| 19:33 | it is better controlled by the Term of Service of the site | |
| 19:33 | The license, in this case the AGPL, talk about the Copyright of the source code of the web application | |
| 19:33 | The Terms of Service of the specific site, talks about | |
| 19:33 | the right to use the personal or not personal data there. | |
| 19:34 | So, AGPL v3+ is not enough | |
| 19:34 | but is is needed | |
| 19:34 | to cover the freedom of the source code part of the web application. | |
| 19:34 | GPL v3+ does not cover this as it does not include the clause 13 | |
| 19:35 | AGPL v3+ is just GPL v3+ with the addition of the clause 13 | |
| 19:35 | Clause 13 was added just to cover it, as it was not allowed in GPL v3 by | |
| 19:35 | big players as Google and so on | |
| 19:35 | <end> | |
| 19:35 | owen | How would an AGPLv3+ license have prevented LibLime from putting customers on LEK? |
| 19:36 | slef | owen: it wouldn't. |
| 19:36 | wizzyrea | it wouldn't prevent them from doing that, but it would prevent them from not releasing the code for LEK, right? |
| 19:36 | davi | right |
| 19:36 | thd | owen: LibLime would have done what LibLime would have done under kados |
| 19:36 | owen | Not even that, it would require that someone pay to sue them wouldn't it? |
| 19:36 | slef | wizzyrea: we'd need one of their customers to break rank and extract the code for us, though. |
| 19:36 | s/customers/users/ | |
| 19:36 | wizzyrea | which I'm sure we could do, if we could look at it. |
| 19:36 | < doesn't have LEK anyway | |
| 19:37 | gmcharlt | .... |
| 19:37 | davi | Any copyright holder can sue |
| 19:37 | gmcharlt | ok, five minutes pro-AGPL3 are up |
| 19:37 | time for five minutes anti-AGPL3 | |
| 19:37 | thd | owen: the advantage which AGPL 3 would have provided is that kados would not have been able to use hiding the code as a weapon against competition |
| 19:37 | slef | AGPLv3 does not do what it was proposed for: it does not provide protection against software as a service providers customising it and locking users in. |
| 19:38 | brendan | what are the know loopholes with AGPL3 |
| 19:38 | slef | There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one way to lock in a user. |
| 19:38 | owen | thd: He would have been able to hide the code for as long as it took for someone to mount a protest |
| 19:38 | atz | While AGPL has been released and seen some adoption, it has yet to be tested by any significant enforcement cases. |
| 19:38 | davi | slef, any evidence? |
| 19:38 | brendan | good point atz |
| 19:38 | slef | Even now, with GPL2+, it's easier to lock someone in by locking in their data. |
| 19:38 | davi | atz, GPL was not tested up to years later |
| 19:39 | slef | We should win the easy battles, like data portability, before jumping into AGPLv3. |
| 19:39 | davi | We can jump already to AGPLv3 |
| 19:39 | slef | AGPL3 is not well understood by community expert lawyers yet. |
| 19:39 | thd | owen: kados would likely have been difficult as that was his tendency at the time but would have been more constrained in how he chose to be difficult. |
| 19:39 | slef | The drafting process was awful (as it was for GPL3+) and so hard to use that questions I'm almost sure were raised during drafting are met with comments like "I don't know that anyone's brought the issue up before" (one of Aaron's emails to thd) |
| 19:40 | davi | AGPLv3 is used by big players as Canonical (Ubuntu), SugarCRM, |
| 19:40 | ident.ca | |
| 19:40 | thd | slef is correct about the expert lawyers and AGPL 3 |
| 19:40 | davi | and others |
| 19:40 | owen | So a LEK scenario under AGPL3 only becomes less likely because of an increased fear of enforcement? |
| 19:40 | slef | The liability market is a horrible idea which favours unethical gamblers, in that they have the lowest costs (because they do the bare minimum) and so the best return. |
| 19:40 | davi | thd, Nobody understood very well the GPL when it began to be used either |
| 19:41 | slef | There may also be repository management work to do before we adopt it, as it seems we may have to include various perl modules in the Corresponding Source. |
| 19:41 | davi | Under sleft rationale it would be better change to use the BSD |
| 19:41 | slef | It depends on "a general prevailing reasonableness among contributors" and I hope we can acknowledge, sadly, we have seen in the last two years, that isn't always the case. |
| 19:41 | davi | and anyone do what the want, forking and locking if the want |
| 19:41 | That would increase creativity | |
| 19:41 | slef | I hope that there is reasonableness, but let's stick with our current, better-understood licence and focus on the other battles. |
| 19:42 | thd | owen: yes less likely, and he would not have a legal defence for hiding the code. |
| 19:42 | atz | let's also say that AGPL license conversion introduces actual work to be done. |
| 19:42 | slef | Like data downloads, like easier contributions back to koha-community. |
| 19:42 | chris | if the overwhelming opinion is not agpl3, then i would definitely want to upgrade to gpl3+ |
| 19:42 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 19:42 | five minutes are up for anti-AGPL3 | |
| 19:42 | second try - anybody want to make the pro-GPL3 case? | |
| 19:42 | owen | 1. Withhold code. 2. Wait for protest. 3. Fight protest. 4. Release code after so long that you can't integrate it easily anymore. |
| 19:43 | chris | i can |
| 19:43 | gmcharlt | ok, chris, go for it |
| 19:43 | atz | "It's like GPL2, only better!" |
| 19:43 | chris | exactly :) |
| 19:43 | davi | Under slef rationale we should allow _any_ license as it is compatible with the current source code, "to allow more contributions". So the license we use is not main, but the quantity of contributions we can get. |
| 19:43 | chris | it provides protection against patent deals the like of M$ and novel |
| 19:43 | chris_n | owen: 3b. loose protest, pay bucks |
| 19:44 | owen | chris_n: Maybe, and still 4. |
| 19:44 | davi | chris, AGPL can also protect againts patents, as AGPL = GPL + clause 13 |
| 19:44 | owen | davi: We're listening to chris right now |
| 19:45 | chris | can i finish? |
| 19:45 | davi | sorry |
| 19:45 | chris | it also makes tivoization much harder, do people know what that is? |
| 19:45 | tajoli | no |
| 19:45 | davi | yes |
| 19:45 | slef | patents are an interesting one, but software is not patentable as such here (in theory), so I'd prefer to see a patent GPL instead, but there isn't one yet. I have some sympathy with those who are concerned by that. |
| 19:45 | chris | its when people release code that has 'anti-features' that shut itself down when it detects modification |
| 19:45 | owen | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization |
| 19:45 | slef | Tivoization is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license, but uses hardware to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term and believes this practice denies users some of the freedom that the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) was designed to protect... http://a.vu/w:Tivoization |
| 19:45 | ||
| 19:46 | chris | yep |
| 19:46 | davi | AGPL = GPL + clause 13, so it also protect against tivoization |
| 19:46 | chris | to my mind gplv3 is closing loopholes so taht the spirit of gplv2 is protected |
| 19:46 | owen | davi: We're listening to chris right now |
| 19:46 | davi | sorry |
| 19:48 | chris | i see it as a step in the right direction |
| 19:48 | slef | http://www.gnu.org/licenses/qu[…]-guide-gplv3.html also mentions anti-DRM/TPM as a major change. |
| 19:48 | chris | yes, that is a good point |
| 19:48 | gmcharlt | ok, thank you |
| 19:49 | any takers for arguing anti-GPL3 ? | |
| 19:49 | thd | I would just like to raise a general point about the or later version option. |
| 19:49 | davi | me |
| 19:49 | GPLv3+ is great option | |
| 19:49 | yes | |
| 19:49 | slef | Digital rights management (DRM) refers to access control technologies used by publishers to limit usage of digital media or devices. In contrast to copy protection, which only attempts to prohibit unauthorized copies of media or files, digital rights management enables the publisher to control what can and cannot be done with a... http://a.vu/w:Digital_rights_management |
| 19:49 | davi | but |
| 19:49 | thd | ... after anti-GPL 3 I can raise my point |
| 19:49 | davi | GPLv3+ does not cover the web application case |
| 19:49 | that is because the clause 13 was added in AGPLv3+ | |
| 19:50 | It was not added in GPLv3+ because big players did not wanted it in the main GPL license | |
| 19:50 | owen | I would like to hear anti-GPL3 arguments based on what it contains rather than what it lacks compared to AGPLv3 |
| 19:50 | slef | Well, one argument of mine still applies to the GPL3 |
| 19:50 | davi | GPLv3 is a great license, if we talk about freedom and community |
| 19:50 | no bad issues here, aside the one exposed above | |
| 19:51 | atz | re: "or later"... the only liability is if we think a later GPL would *weaken* protections. A serious consideration, but I regard this as highly unlikely. |
| 19:51 | slef | The drafting was inequitable and the same mix of formal and invective wording exists in GPL3. But the wording mixes in GPL2 to a lesser extent, too. |
| 19:52 | atz | we cannot anticipate all possible evolutions in law, but by leaving open a later GPL version, we can protect ourselves against them (and make future license changes easier) |
| 19:53 | davi | atz++ |
| 19:53 | chris | i agree |
| 19:53 | slef | The strongest argument against "or later" is that FSF is undemocratic and could be captured after RMS, but I think the benefits outweigh that risk. |
| 19:54 | * atz | nod. |
| 19:54 | thd | slef's identification of bugs and week points in the license are why we should always use or later invocation. |
| 19:54 | davi | slef, There is a note in the license about "while the license keep the same freedom spirit" or something like that |
| 19:54 | to about any problem in that case. | |
| 19:54 | slef | But then, I'm happy with Expat for some things, so I might be too liberal for some of you. ;-) |
| 19:54 | gmcharlt | ok, five minutes are up for anti-GPL3+ |
| 19:55 | slef | davi, I'm not sure if that will stick. We don't agree if AGPL3 is in the same freedom spirit of not, for example. |
| 19:55 | gmcharlt | that leaves us with pro/anti-status quo, i.e., GPL2+ |
| 19:55 | thd | We may have to wait 15 years for motivation at FSF to produce GPL 4 or AGPL 4 but we should not close off the option. |
| 19:55 | chris | bus will try to get back online from there |
| 19:56 | davi | I could talk a little about anti-GPL2+ |
| 19:56 | 1.- upgrade reason | |
| 19:56 | slef | Pro-GPL2: it doesn't seem broke yet, it leaves the upgrade trapdoor open and requires no extra work from us. |
| 19:56 | sorry, pro-GPL2+ | |
| 19:56 | atz | good reasons |
| 19:56 | davi | 2.- use a license which cover the web application case, as Koha is actually a web application |
| 19:57 | <end> | |
| 19:57 | slef | That's all I have pro-GPL2+, too, really. |
| 19:58 | gmcharlt | and it seems like davi mixed in anti-GPL2+ as well |
| 19:58 | CGI197 joined #koha | |
| 19:58 | davi | yep |
| 19:58 | sorry | |
| 19:58 | slef | As I wrote before, I think I might be in the GPL3+ camp, but I've been focusing on my (years-old, oft-asked) AGPL3 concerns. |
| 19:58 | CGI197 | 15 |
| 19:59 | thd | I would argue pro GPL 2+ against *GPL only option. |
| 19:59 | CGI197 | hii |
| 19:59 | atz | I think i'm w/ thd. |
| 19:59 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:00 | thd | Anyone can create a GPL 3 or AGPL 3 build of Koha under the existing license. |
| 20:00 | davi | I think we should allow any compatible license, to get as much contributions as possible, as freedom is not main actually |
| 20:00 | contribution quantity is | |
| 20:00 | CGI197 | j'ai un probleme concernant l'import des notice |
| 20:01 | atz | I don't think that is a clear approach. |
| 20:01 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:01 | davi | thd, They can also fork and lock Koha in a cloud |
| 20:01 | ;) | |
| 20:01 | gmcharlt | having had our mini-debate |
| 20:01 | thd | If we choose, GPL 3 or AGPL 3 only, without the or later version option, we will never have the choice of GPL 4 or AGPL 4. |
| 20:01 | CGI197 left #koha | |
| 20:01 | gmcharlt | I think (to be reductive) that the choice of options remains much the same |
| 20:01 | davi | thd, I propose the "or later" for sure |
| 20:02 | gmcharlt | however, I would like to get the sense of the meeting as to whether |
| 20:02 | thd | davi: I merely advocate any plus choice over any only one version choice. |
| 20:02 | davi | thd++ |
| 20:02 | rhcl | agree w/ thd on that point |
| 20:02 | gmcharlt | the options to vote on should be, as far as the GPL or AGPL are concerned |
| 20:02 | thd | davi: I am with you on AGPL 3+ if it has not been clear. |
| 20:02 | gmcharlt | version [2,3] or version [2,3] or later |
| 20:02 | so to make it concrete | |
| 20:03 | davi | thd, it has been clear, AGPL 3+ is the best option for a web application as Koha |
| 20:03 | gmcharlt | may I have +1/0/-1 on going with the "version n or later" for GPL/AGPL options that get voted on? |
| 20:03 | slef | +1 |
| 20:03 | davi | +1 |
| 20:03 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:04 | thd | +1 |
| 20:04 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:04 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:04 | owen | +1 |
| 20:04 | atz | +1 |
| 20:04 | brendan | +1 |
| 20:04 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:04 | slef | and can the AGPL 3+ lovers keep it in their pants for a few minutes, please? ;-) else this will degenerate |
| 20:04 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:04 | atz | by general consensus, let's say |
| 20:04 | chris | +1 |
| 20:04 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:04 | collum | +1 |
| 20:04 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:04 | thd | slef :) |
| 20:05 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:05 | then, as far as optoins that have been signfiicantly discussed | |
| 20:05 | it looks like we have | |
| 20:05 | 0. GPL2+ | |
| 20:05 | 1. GPL3+ | |
| 20:05 | 2. AGPL3+ | |
| 20:05 | atz | method of voting? |
| 20:05 | davi | (2) |
| 20:06 | gmcharlt | as far as the method of voting is concerned |
| 20:06 | I propose that it be done in a recordable fashion | |
| 20:06 | e.g., on the wiki | |
| 20:06 | thd | gmcharlt: which methods have you eliminated? |
| 20:06 | davi | wiki++ |
| 20:07 | tajoli | for this i prefer e-mail |
| 20:07 | gmcharlt | thd: none, so far - we're discussing the options |
| 20:07 | davi | email++, because it is more accesible |
| 20:07 | thd | exactly |
| 20:07 | gmcharlt | and in anyevent, the vote needs to be publicized well in advance |
| 20:07 | slef | Are we voting in a division or trying to build a consensus? |
| 20:07 | thd | are not all voting methods recordable by some means? |
| 20:08 | slef:? | |
| 20:08 | gmcharlt | and the voting period sufficiently long, particularly since people have summer and winter vacations to deal with |
| 20:08 | chris_n | thd: wiki voting could be tampered with |
| 20:08 | atz | i think an asynchronous but limited-duration voting method makes sense |
| 20:08 | thd | chris_n: there is no tamper proof method |
| 20:08 | atz | if we were to do email, is the dev-list the right venue? general list? |
| 20:08 | gmcharlt | slef: well, that depends |
| 20:08 | tajoli | Who can vote ? |
| 20:09 | gmcharlt | is a consensus achievable? |
| 20:09 | slef | thd: I would hope we could vote towards consensus, but koha has generally tended to use a division early. |
| 20:09 | thd | I think that tajoli has the more interesting question |
| 20:09 | davi | Maybe I should not allowed to vote as I have not contributed to Koha (yet), patch pending. |
| 20:10 | thd | slef: What voting method provides voting towards consensus if that would be good? |
| 20:10 | tajoli | Personaly I think that a vote by e-mail (on mailng-list) is more easy to say and to do |
| 20:10 | thd | maybe davi is holding out for AGPL 3. |
| 20:10 | chris | I don't think patch count is useful in thus context |
| 20:10 | chris_n | this is a question of what licensing the project will accept so everyone with a vested interest in Koha should be able to vote |
| 20:11 | owen | Agreed |
| 20:11 | chris_n | "vested interest" has already been defined |
| 20:11 | during our deliberations on organization | |
| 20:11 | atz | yeah, i think there are legit stakeholders beyond devs... but i would hate to see 50 never-seen-before ppl chime in. |
| 20:11 | thd | chris_n: I agree, however, the developers are going to use whatever license they choose. |
| 20:11 | atz | if it goes there, i think we review our methods. |
| 20:11 | davi | good, so I will vote |
| 20:11 | chris_n | thd: but we don't have to accept |
| 20:12 | their code | |
| 20:12 | tajoli | I think could vote everyone register in koha-lists (also not in english) |
| 20:12 | thd | However, developers already have a choice of making their own build. |
| 20:12 | chris_n | which is fine |
| 20:12 | slef | thd: I think you let each person vote block, stand-aside, reservation or agreement on each option, then look whether to remove a weak option and if you can convert votes. I'm trying to find a concise process description. |
| 20:13 | gmcharlt | slef: preference voting, in other words? |
| 20:13 | chris | Stv |
| 20:13 | slef | gmcharlt: with revoting allowed. |
| 20:14 | davi | I think we should do a strong anti-AGPL campaign, as that license could be dangerous (FUD) |
| 20:14 | also get donations to support that campaign | |
| 20:15 | gmcharlt | davi: um, what? that doesn't seem to be on topic |
| 20:15 | davi | With money you can do great things ;) |
| 20:15 | thd | slef: I like the idea of revoting to consensus. |
| 20:15 | davi | oops, sorry |
| 20:15 | * chris_n | like's the revote to consensus idea also |
| 20:16 | atz | i like the idea of a definite process w/ a max duration. |
| 20:16 | chris | Yup under some time constraint |
| 20:16 | atz | i mean, consensus is great. progress is better. |
| 20:16 | slef | I agree with atz that there will need to be a max duration. |
| 20:16 | tajoli | +1 on max duration |
| 20:16 | davi | atz++, playing the "try to convent votes via FUD or similar" is a risky way to follow |
| 20:16 | thd | slef: I presume that revoting does not preclude definite resolution after a set time. |
| 20:17 | chris_n | +1 on max duration |
| 20:17 | slef | thd: no. For example, debian allows revoting, but it doesn't publish the votes until the end, which hinders consensus-building. |
| 20:17 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:17 | davi | +1 on max duration |
| 20:17 | gmcharlt | putting aside the question of how votes get cast |
| 20:18 | we have two points that I'd like to get the sense of the meeting on | |
| 20:18 | #1 electorate | |
| 20:18 | thd | slef: there is no need to know who voted what to help form a consensus. |
| 20:18 | slef | I'm sorry - my old reference has gone offline and I can't find another one. |
| 20:18 | gmcharlt | electorate to consist of all individuals who self-identify as KOha stateholders |
| 20:18 | slef | thd: no, but you need to know if there are blocks (and preferably the reason) |
| 20:18 | gmcharlt | +1/0/-1 ? |
| 20:18 | slef | what did we do for the HLT association vote? |
| 20:19 | chris | +1 |
| 20:19 | chris_n | slef: we only required non-anonymity |
| 20:19 | gregb | +1 |
| 20:19 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:19 | collum | +1 |
| 20:19 | davi | +1 |
| 20:19 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:20 | chris | I think that must be required too |
| 20:20 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:20 | tajoli | +1 (non-anonymity) |
| 20:20 | owen | +1 |
| 20:20 | slef | +1 |
| 20:20 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:20 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:20 | sekjal | +1 (where 'self-identify' implies non-anonymity) |
| 20:20 | gmcharlt | ok, let's do that explicitly |
| 20:21 | electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous | |
| 20:21 | +1/0/-1 | |
| 20:21 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:21 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:21 | davi | +1 |
| 20:21 | owen | +1 |
| 20:21 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:21 | thd | +1 |
| 20:21 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:21 | gregb | +1 |
| 20:21 | collum | +1 |
| 20:21 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:21 | slef | +1 |
| 20:22 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:22 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:22 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:22 | * chris_n | wonders how we prevent ballot-box stuffing |
| 20:22 | atz | +1 (previous proviso notwithstanding) |
| 20:22 | chris | +1 |
| 20:22 | gmcharlt | chris_n: it's never been a problem in the past |
| 20:22 | thd | We would need to be mindful of votes being bought if the stakes are high enough such as licensing. |
| 20:22 | chris | Its easily spotted |
| 20:22 | slef | chris_n: appoint a good retuning officer |
| 20:22 | gmcharlt | ok, next question |
| 20:23 | atz | yeah, i think we leave it open but if it doesn't pass the sniff test, reconsider methodology |
| 20:23 | chris | Yep |
| 20:23 | chris_n | gmcharlt: but this is a high-stake issue |
| 20:23 | atz | so was the HLT question |
| 20:23 | gmcharlt | chris_n: they've all been, recently |
| 20:23 | so next question | |
| 20:24 | voting is to start at a specific time (to be annonced at least three weeks in advance) and end at a specific time (at least two weeks after voting starts) | |
| 20:24 | +1/0/-1 | |
| 20:24 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:24 | davi | +1 |
| 20:24 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:24 | thd | +1 |
| 20:24 | atz | +1 |
| 20:24 | collum | +1 |
| 20:24 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:24 | gregb | +1 |
| 20:24 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:24 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:24 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:24 | slef | +1 would prefer 3+ weeks |
| 20:24 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:25 | davi | (3+ weeks) ++ |
| 20:25 | owen | +1 |
| 20:25 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:25 | gmcharlt | we have a motion for the voting duration to be at least three weeks |
| 20:25 | slef | some have 2-3 week hols |
| 20:25 | gmcharlt | +1/0/-1 |
| 20:25 | slef | +1 |
| 20:25 | davi | +1 |
| 20:25 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:25 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:25 | owen | +1 |
| 20:25 | joetho | +1 at least 3 wks |
| 20:25 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:25 | collum | +1 |
| 20:26 | chris | +1 3 for both periods |
| 20:26 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:26 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:26 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:26 | atz | slef: must be nice. |
| 20:26 | thd | +1 |
| 20:26 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:26 | gmcharlt | next question |
| 20:26 | voting is to be done using some form of preference voting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_voting) with revoting allowed during the voting period | |
| 20:27 | slef | atz: depends if it's all paid |
| 20:27 | gmcharlt | +1/0/-1 |
| 20:27 | thd | +1 |
| 20:27 | davi | reading link |
| 20:27 | owen | +1 |
| 20:27 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:27 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 20:27 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:27 | slef | +1 |
| 20:27 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:27 | collum | +1 |
| 20:27 | davi | +1 |
| 20:28 | gregb | +1 |
| 20:28 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:28 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:28 | chris | +1 |
| 20:28 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:28 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:29 | richard joined #koha | |
| 20:29 | richard | hi |
| 20:29 | brendan | +1 |
| 20:29 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:30 | I will now open the floor to five minutes for any discussion of *which* preference voting scheme to use | |
| 20:30 | thd | I suggest that we have a formal method of identifying affiliation to more easily identify people buying voters |
| 20:30 | davi | what communication channel is more used by Koha electorate? |
| 20:30 | owen left #koha | |
| 20:31 | tajoli | e-mail, i think |
| 20:31 | thd | By formal method maybe I merely mean that people should state their relation to Koha. |
| 20:32 | gmcharlt | hold on |
| 20:32 | not quite what I meant | |
| 20:32 | slef | I request a deferment to email on this for max 1 week to koha-devel becuase I can't find a good description right now. |
| 20:32 | thd | We could be inviting the entire internet to vote. |
| 20:32 | joetho | we already agreed on non-anonymous voting. |
| 20:32 | gmcharlt | i.e., IRV, STV, Condorcet, etc. |
| 20:32 | atz | thd: like i said, if it turns up 50 never-seen-before voters, we revisit our options. |
| 20:33 | davi | e-mail can be easily spoofed, so we should at least check back as mailing list do |
| 20:33 | thd | joetho: giving an email address for many people is not anonymous. |
| 20:33 | davi | We could use a mailing list to count vote |
| 20:33 | vote = subscription | |
| 20:33 | joetho | I think it is reasonable to restrict voting to developers (easy to decide who's who) and users (not so easy) |
| 20:33 | atz | davi: the spoofee will know if they see somebody post pretending to be them |
| 20:33 | davi | ack |
| 20:33 | chris | Yes |
| 20:33 | tajoli | also I vote = subscription of one mailing list |
| 20:34 | chris | I dont |
| 20:34 | gmcharlt | slef: the dferment you propose - is that regarding the preference voting scheme we employ? |
| 20:34 | chris | Non anonymity is enough |
| 20:34 | To spot anomalies | |
| 20:34 | thd | chris: can we make that somewhat strong non-anonymity? |
| 20:35 | chris_n | ip logging too maybe? |
| 20:35 | davi | IP login ++ |
| 20:35 | and check against voter ID | |
| 20:35 | manually | |
| 20:35 | rhcl | Does an organization (library) get only one vote? Does all of Tech Services get to vote? +director? |
| 20:35 | slef | gmcharlt: yes. o m |
| 20:35 | davi | one organisation = one vote |
| 20:36 | one developer = one vote | |
| 20:36 | chris | I don't stating relationship to koha is too much to ask |
| 20:36 | davi | one organization = one user ===> one vote |
| 20:36 | slef | network problems here, sorry |
| 20:36 | gmcharlt | rhcl: davi: actually, we already discussed that when we voted on the electorate |
| 20:36 | chris | I don't think even |
| 20:36 | Eg | |
| 20:36 | gmcharlt | "electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous |
| 20:36 | " | |
| 20:36 | joetho | "organization" = multi-branch consortium = one vote? |
| 20:36 | thd | chris: That is exactly what I was requesting. Have a blank box required field for stating relationship to Koha. |
| 20:36 | atz | right |
| 20:37 | chris | Yep |
| 20:37 | gmcharlt | so to make it explicit |
| 20:37 | each individual person has one vote; +1/0/-1 ? | |
| 20:37 | chris | +1 |
| 20:37 | davi | joetho, Me being to hand does not count as two votes. Me counts as one vote. |
| 20:37 | collum | +1 |
| 20:37 | tajoli | I suggest: call all admis on mailing list connect with Koha. We list all e-mail. Only those e-mails can vote |
| 20:37 | atz | i am uninterested in determining whether an organization begins here or there, or who is really a member of it. if they are active Koha ppl that the rest of us recognize, that's all I care about. |
| 20:38 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:38 | chris | Atz++ |
| 20:38 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:38 | slef | gmcharlt: of the list given, I would say Conddorcet+Schulze, but that's suboptimal too |
| 20:38 | collum | atz++ |
| 20:38 | thd | atz: We had 2000 of them last time. Do you recognise that many? |
| 20:38 | davi | +1 |
| 20:38 | atz | thd: in short, no |
| 20:39 | jwagner | By "recognize" do you mean active developers? What about the libraries who use the system but don't actively participate on the lists? |
| 20:39 | joetho | atz: I am thinking of potential problems here with ballotbox stuffing, or complaints of unfairness. No, it hasn't happened yet, but the events of the last year or two indicate this as a possibility to me. |
| 20:39 | chris | If they put down their relationship |
| 20:40 | No issues | |
| 20:40 | Bus stop brb | |
| 20:40 | thd | chris+1 |
| 20:40 | davi | The bigger the company is, the more employer they have, the more votes and so power on decision they have |
| 20:40 | gmcharlt | joetho: there have been no cases I know of of ballot-box-stuffing during Koha project votes in my memory |
| 20:40 | chris_n | gmcharlt: have we a determination on the last explicit? |
| 20:41 | gmcharlt | chris_n: not yet; let me float it again |
| 20:41 | joetho | I worry too much, then. |
| 20:41 | atz | jwagner: not just devs. but they should be recognizable, not just Xayenrgq93134yahoo. i think any Koha library has a stake. |
| 20:41 | collum | Some developers may do work for more than one company. |
| 20:41 | jwagner | That's fine. I think that the using libraries have a stake & didn't want them blocked from participation. |
| 20:42 | gmcharlt | electorate = all individual people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous; voter to state nature of stakeholdership during voting |
| 20:42 | atz | collum: that's the kind of thing i am uninterested in. |
| 20:42 | gmcharlt | +1/0/-1 ? |
| 20:42 | collum | atz: exactly |
| 20:42 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:42 | slef | +1 |
| 20:42 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:42 | collum | +1 |
| 20:42 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:42 | davi | +1 |
| 20:42 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:42 | brendan | +1 |
| 20:42 | thd | +1 |
| 20:43 | atz | +1 |
| 20:43 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:43 | thd | I think that relationship should be a blank box not a drop down list. |
| 20:43 | jcamins is now known as jcamins_a | |
| 20:43 | atz | thd: sure |
| 20:43 | * chris_n | thinks it would behoove libraries and others to educate potential voters on the issues prior to voting rather than simply "suggesting" a vote |
| 20:44 | sekjal | +1 |
| 20:44 | davi | expose rationales exposed above |
| 20:44 | chris_n ++ | |
| 20:44 | * jwagner | is assuming the ballot will clearly state the issues |
| 20:44 | chris_n | many in the potential electorate will know little to nothing about the issues |
| 20:44 | thd | chris_n: That is our task to point them to the discussion. |
| 20:44 | chris | +1 |
| 20:44 | atz | jwagner: the choices more than the issues. |
| 20:44 | davi | chris_n++ |
| 20:45 | the options and rationales | |
| 20:45 | atz | yeah, i think people need to be responsible voters. but i think the koha community has been thus far. |
| 20:45 | gmcharlt | ok |
| 20:45 | thd | The ballot should link people to discussions about the issues as it had last time. |
| 20:45 | gmcharlt | some more procedural issues to slog through |
| 20:45 | chris_n | thd: I think we will require the assistance of libraries, etc to accomplish that |
| 20:45 | atz | this is a voting mechanism, not a time for persuasive args |
| 20:45 | slef | Appoint a good RO, let them weed if it matters. |
| 20:46 | atz: it should be both. | |
| 20:46 | gmcharlt | item: specific preference vorting method to be deferred to discussion on koha mailing list; discussion to take at least one week but no more than two |
| 20:46 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:46 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:46 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:46 | slef | +1 |
| 20:46 | chris | +1 |
| 20:46 | joetho | +1 |
| 20:46 | davi | +1 |
| 20:46 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:46 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:46 | atz | slef: i don't mind a *brief* summary or pointers to discussion, but i don't want a big multi-page for/against on the ballot. |
| 20:47 | collum | +1 |
| 20:47 | * chris_n | agrees |
| 20:47 | davi | atz++, short rationales as the exposed above |
| 20:47 | slef | atz: I think voters will tire before that and the ballot's not the place, no. |
| 20:47 | jwagner | atz, but a _concise_ summary should be posted somewhere |
| 20:47 | gmcharlt | item: initial ballot to be proposal will have following items 1. GPL2+ (status quote) 2. GPL3+ 3. AGPL3+ |
| 20:47 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:47 | chris | +1 |
| 20:47 | slef | -1 |
| 20:48 | reed joined #koha | |
| 20:48 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:48 | thd | +1 |
| 20:48 | davi | +1 |
| 20:48 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:48 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:48 | rhcl | +1 |
| 20:48 | slef | I hate that latin. Put "as currently" or something |
| 20:48 | collum | +1 |
| 20:48 | davi | (short rationales in ballot) ++ |
| 20:48 | slef | actually, gmcharlt just flubbed it |
| 20:48 | gmcharlt | slef: indeed I did |
| 20:48 | chris_n | so much for latin |
| 20:49 | slef | so you're all voting for gibberish ;-) |
| 20:49 | thd | :) |
| 20:49 | davi | (short rationales in ballot) ++ , in pro of education and information to voters |
| 20:50 | atz | voter education does not happen *at* the voting booth. discussion is it's own thread |
| 20:50 | thd | gmcharlt: please suspend the flubbed vote before we will end up voting on a hexidecimal ballot. |
| 20:50 | Colin | changes vote to ita vero |
| 20:50 | davi | ok |
| 20:50 | chris_n | Colin: lol |
| 20:50 | gmcharlt | item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 500 words in English; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option |
| 20:50 | * thd | changes to -1 |
| 20:50 | gmcharlt | thd: seriously? |
| 20:50 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:50 | slef | gmcharlt: 150 + a link! |
| 20:51 | gmcharlt | yes, I meant GPL2+ (current license used by Koha) |
| 20:51 | ok | |
| 20:51 | slef | a wiki link |
| 20:51 | davi | 150++ |
| 20:51 | 500 too long | |
| 20:51 | thd | gmcharlt: reading the first item with the second item for ballot content is fine |
| 20:51 | slef | or does that risk vandalism? |
| 20:51 | gmcharlt | item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 150 words in English + link to koha-community.org wiki; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option |
| 20:52 | atz | wiki always risks vandalism, but authors can always revert to correct state |
| 20:52 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:52 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:52 | slef | +1 |
| 20:52 | davi | +1 |
| 20:52 | Colin | +1 |
| 20:52 | thd | -1 |
| 20:52 | oops | |
| 20:52 | tajoli | +1 |
| 20:52 | thd | =1 |
| 20:52 | +1 | |
| 20:52 | atz | +1 sounds good |
| 20:52 | collum | +1 |
| 20:52 | bgkriegel left #koha | |
| 20:52 | slef | revoting in practice, demostrated by thd |
| 20:53 | * thd | misread characters for words |
| 20:53 | thd | :) |
| 20:53 | davi | that was vote correction actually |
| 20:53 | gmcharlt | ok, I would like at least one person for each ballot option to identify themselves as volunteers to write the descriptions |
| 20:53 | starting first with GPL2+ (current license) | |
| 20:54 | ok, sitting on that for the moment | |
| 20:54 | thd | I volunteer to write all descriptions and let everyone argue about improving the descriptions on the mailing list |
| 20:54 | chris_n | thd++ |
| 20:54 | druthb joined #koha | |
| 20:54 | davi | thd++ |
| 20:54 | slef | I offer gpl2+, even if I'm unsure, as I saw the benefits above |
| 20:55 | gmcharlt | I'd prefer that an advocate of each do the wording for each option |
| 20:55 | davi | I will review the AGPL v3 + |
| 20:55 | gmcharlt | slef: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL2+ |
| 20:55 | davi: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL3+ | |
| 20:55 | thd | I offer to write at least AGPL 3+ description |
| 20:55 | davi | as anti-tivoization and anti-pattent is also in AGPLv3+ |
| 20:55 | gmcharlt | thd: thanks - now two volunteers to do AGPL3+ |
| 20:56 | davi: thanks - one volunteer to do AGPL3+ /correction | |
| 20:56 | any volunteer for GPL3+ ? | |
| 20:56 | thd | Whoever writes them all descriptions should be available for comment on the mailing list. |
| 20:56 | davi | gmcharlt, I volunteered to AGPLv3+ not for just GPLv3 |
| 20:57 | gmcharlt | davi: right, I corrected my statement |
| 20:57 | davi | ack |
| 20:57 | chris | thd: would you like to work with me on GPL3+ ? |
| 20:57 | thd | I am happy to work with anyone. |
| 20:57 | davi | What mainling list will be used to manage this discussion koha-devel AT koha-community.org ? |
| 20:58 | chris | in that case, how about thd and chris for gpl3+ |
| 20:58 | gmcharlt | chris: thanks - charging ahead; two volunteers for GPL3+ |
| 20:58 | item: discussion of all ballott issues, and the ballott itself, to take place on the main Koha mailing list (AKA the katipo.co.nz one) | |
| 20:59 | thd | I had planned to write a message summarising the options for the mailing list but that is a somewhat different task. |
| 20:59 | joetho | +1 (with reminders of that to the other various lists?) |
| 20:59 | chris | +1 |
| 20:59 | chris_n | +1 |
| 20:59 | jwagner | +1 |
| 20:59 | tajoli | I need to leave |
| 20:59 | +1 | |
| 20:59 | davi | +1 |
| 20:59 | tajoli | bye |
| 20:59 | exit | |
| 20:59 | Colin | +1 |
| 21:00 | thd | +1 |
| 21:00 | collum | +1 |
| 21:00 | slef | 0 |
| 21:00 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 21:00 | slef | tajoli: /quit |
| 21:00 | tajoli left #koha | |
| 21:01 | sekjal | I must also go. cheers, all |
| 21:01 | sekjal left #koha | |
| 21:01 | rhcl | +1 |
| 21:01 | gmcharlt | item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on koha-community.org; placement in koha newsletter, and request to all "well known" Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally |
| 21:01 | davi | +1 |
| 21:02 | chris | +1 |
| 21:02 | atz | +1 # certainly sufficient |
| 21:02 | collum | +1 |
| 21:02 | chris_n | +1 |
| 21:02 | thd | +1 |
| 21:02 | Colin | +1 |
| 21:02 | slef | 0 (don't think "well known" is clear, but not vital) |
| 21:02 | jwagner | 0 (don't think asking people to blog about it is necessary/desirable) |
| 21:03 | chris | why not desirable |
| 21:03 | davi | I think asking people to blog about it is desirable, but not a must |
| 21:03 | chris | i can understand why not nessecary |
| 21:03 | but i cant spelt it | |
| 21:03 | davi | It is part of the education and discussion process |
| 21:03 | to form an opinion in voters | |
| 21:04 | jwagner | Yes, I don't object to the discussions & blogs, just to tying it into the formal motion |
| 21:04 | Colin | in place of asking can we say encouraging? |
| 21:04 | gmcharlt | item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on koha-community.org; placement in koha newsletter, and encouraging to all Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally |
| 21:04 | jwagner | I'd say something like "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want" |
| 21:05 | gmcharlt | jwagner: I'm actually driving at something slightly different |
| 21:05 | slef | waits to see if gmcharlt amends |
| 21:05 | atz | at which point, i think it doesn't mean anything |
| 21:05 | gmcharlt | discussion is needed, of course |
| 21:05 | jwagner | gmcharlt, ? |
| 21:05 | chris | its about the vote |
| 21:05 | publicising the vote | |
| 21:05 | davi | jwagner++ |
| 21:05 | chris | not the issues |
| 21:05 | gmcharlt | but I'm more interested in ensuring that everybody who has an interest is aware that the vote is taking place in the first place |
| 21:05 | atz | this is "hear ye, hear ye! a koha vote shall be taken!" |
| 21:05 | thd | +1 |
| 21:06 | jwagner | gmcharlt, yes, that I can agree with. |
| 21:06 | davi | "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want, for example blogs" |
| 21:06 | jwagner | s/interested parties/Koha stakeholders for consistency |
| 21:06 | davi | jwagner++ |
| 21:07 | * atz | suggests strike the whole latter clause |
| 21:07 | atz | placement in koha newsletter. (full stop) |
| 21:08 | davi | I disagree, because encouraging discussion can not be a bad thing |
| 21:08 | thd | Do we have a deadline for choosing the voting system etc. remembering that slef will be absent later this month? |
| 21:09 | atz | this wasn't about discussion, it's about *annoucing* the vote. |
| 21:09 | davi | ack |
| 21:09 | jwagner | With that clarification, OK |
| 21:09 | I'm all for encouraging the discussion, just in a separate context | |
| 21:09 | atz | i think that's fair |
| 21:09 | thd | atz: yes, but we need a ballot system before announcing the vote. |
| 21:10 | atz | thd: yes and no. it doesn't really change anything from here. we still will pick the method via the list. |
| 21:10 | gmcharlt | thd: ballot system was discussed above; outcome is that it will be discussed on koha ML for 1-2 weeks |
| 21:11 | thd | gmcharlt: Yes that is my point. |
| 21:11 | atz | thd: in point of fact, no we don't need a system before annnouncing. |
| 21:11 | thd | If the 1-2 weeks starts now slef stated previously he would be mostly absent. |
| 21:11 | atz | thd: ? |
| 21:11 | chris | vote or not, ill be publicising the vote on my blog :) |
| 21:12 | for the 7 people who readit | |
| 21:12 | slef | no, I'm OK |
| 21:12 | thd | nevermind |
| 21:12 | slef | 2-weeks is just ok, s it turns out |
| 21:12 | thd | if slef is available slef is available. |
| 21:12 | gmcharlt | with selecting the ballot system and preparing the ballot itself |
| 21:12 | that would be ~2 weeks | |
| 21:13 | i.e., 7/23 or so | |
| 21:13 | CGI112 left #koha | |
| 21:13 | slef | any more I'm unpredictable |
| 21:13 | * atz | nod |
| 21:13 | gmcharlt | if we allow for some overlap |
| 21:13 | slef | so please discuss early next week if you can |
| 21:13 | ;-) | |
| 21:13 | gmcharlt | shall we set the start of the vote period to Monday, AUgust 11? |
| 21:14 | atz | seconded |
| 21:14 | gmcharlt | and end September 1? |
| 21:14 | davi | +1 |
| 21:14 | chris | +1 |
| 21:14 | slef | provisionally? |
| 21:14 | brendan | +1 |
| 21:14 | thd | Did we not want to catch people who are not on holliday for the whole of August? |
| 21:14 | collum | +1 |
| 21:14 | Colin | +1 |
| 21:14 | joetho | +1+1 |
| 21:15 | jwagner | +1 |
| 21:15 | slef | let next GM modify if needed? |
| 21:15 | 0 | |
| 21:15 | joetho | whoops, that is just a plain (+1) for me |
| 21:15 | gmcharlt | oops |
| 21:15 | jwagner | thd raises a good point though -- I seem to remember that lots of European countries go on vacation in August. |
| 21:15 | gmcharlt | I was looking at wrong month on calendar |
| 21:16 | let me try again | |
| 21:16 | davi | Maybe September 11 (start),, 1 October (end) would be a lot better |
| 21:16 | joetho | ok, +1 |
| 21:16 | davi | or similar |
| 21:16 | joetho | whoops I thought that was galen's item |
| 21:17 | <--shutting up | |
| 21:17 | slef | davi is the new gmcharlt for joetho |
| 21:17 | gmcharlt | heh |
| 21:17 | davi | no comment |
| 21:18 | gmcharlt | September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 12 September (four week voting period) |
| 21:18 | slef | I don't mind on dates... all suck but 3 weeks take the edge off. |
| 21:18 | gmcharlt | err (I can do math good today) |
| 21:18 | hdl left #koha | |
| 21:18 | gmcharlt | September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 19 September (four week voting period) |
| 21:19 | davi | +1 |
| 21:19 | * jwagner | asks if gmcharlt can haz cheezburger? :-) |
| 21:19 | atz | that should be plenty of time |
| 21:19 | gmcharlt | jwagner: that would make two, today - I better not :) |
| 21:19 | davi | +1 (4 weeks is OK to me) |
| 21:19 | thd | +1 |
| 21:19 | wizzyrea | +1 |
| 21:19 | jwagner | +1 |
| 21:19 | gregb | +1 |
| 21:19 | chris | +1 on those dates |
| 21:20 | collum | +1 |
| 21:20 | slef | 0 |
| 21:20 | Colin | +1 |
| 21:20 | gmcharlt | and as a possible final administrative item - time fo vote to be confirmed at next general meeting |
| 21:21 | jwagner | Maybe with the voting method confirmed then too? |
| 21:21 | davi | +1 |
| 21:21 | gmcharlt | jwagner: would be reconfirmed by that point, but yes |
| 21:21 | jwagner | +1 |
| 21:21 | Colin | +1 |
| 21:21 | davi | explicit confirmation better IMHO |
| 21:21 | slef | +1 |
| 21:21 | thd | +1 with jwagner's amendment |
| 21:21 | collum | +1 |
| 21:22 | gmcharlt | ok - since this meeting has gone over two hours at this point - are there any procedural matters that urgently need to be disussed now? |
| 21:22 | atz | i think we've tapped out this meeting |
| 21:22 | slef | not here |
| 21:23 | zzzz | |
| 21:23 | * jwagner | is ready for supper |
| 21:23 | gmcharlt | ok, thanks everybody |
| 21:23 | rhcl | So huh, watcha having for supper? I'm an omnivore... |
| 21:23 | chris | nope |
| 21:23 | jwagner | Pork chops, I think... |
| 21:23 | atz | by consensus, i think we're adjourned |
| 21:23 | slef | Chalk pops |
| 21:23 | rhcl | Pigs. I like pigs. |
| 21:24 | slef | atz: by conduct |
| 21:24 | atz | slef: indeed, both |
| 21:24 | jwagner | Depends on how much energy it takes for me to walk into the kitchen & stare into the fridge :-) |
| 21:24 | wizzyrea | I have meatloaf waiting for me, which sounds pedestrian, but I assure you, it's not. |
| 21:24 | * jwagner | tries to envision meatloaf on wheels |
| 21:24 | slef | wizzyrea: two out of three ain't bad |
| 21:25 | rhcl | Somebody needs to invent a remotely controlled combination microwave/refrigerator. |
| 21:25 | wizzyrea | slef: :P |
| 21:25 | gmcharlt | I have three cats in my office |
| 21:25 | wizzyrea | slef: you haven't had my meatloaf ;) |
| 21:25 | rhcl | Are they good to eat? |
| 21:25 | jwagner | I trust the cats aren't on the menu! |
| 21:25 | slef | rhcl: that's your problem. |
| 21:25 | gmcharlt | rhcl: too much fiber |
| 21:25 | ;) | |
| 21:26 | * wizzyrea | yawns |
| 21:27 | slef | wizzyrea: bring some to nz, get done for biosecurity (if it's like uk) |
| 21:27 | chris | worse slef |
| 21:27 | seriously, if you ahve food, declare it | |
| 21:27 | wizzyrea | I think I could reproduce it in NZ, with local stuff, no prob. |
| 21:27 | chris | its not worth the $250 instant fine |
| 21:27 | per item | |
| 21:27 | atz | ouch |
| 21:27 | chris | the sniffer dogs will find it |
| 21:27 | wizzyrea | :D |
| 21:28 | slef | for cereals too? |
| 21:28 | rhcl | We have strawberries and cheese from some leftover group event yesterday. |
| 21:28 | chris | declare everything |
| 21:28 | wizzyrea | declare the crumbs in your backpack? |
| 21:28 | chris | if you declare, chances are they will look and say, thats fine |
| 21:28 | if you dont declare it, you get the fine | |
| 21:28 | wizzyrea | argle! |
| 21:28 | chris | plus the declare line is faster |
| 21:28 | i always take somethign to declare | |
| 21:28 | slef | I'll probably only hae geobars or something like that |
| 21:30 | Colin left #koha | |
| 21:30 | * collum | smiles at the thought of meatloaf tax. |
| 21:31 | chris | liv tyler famously got fined for an apple |
| 21:31 | slef | the medicine/prescription-required thing is making me boggle but nz isn't alone on that |
| 21:32 | ow! Cadel has a cracked elbow | |
| 21:33 | reed | the biosecurity dogs are very cute tho |
| 21:33 | but they'll get you | |
| 21:34 | slef | combined customs+petting zoo? |
| 21:34 | gmcharlt | @quote add <slef> combined customs+petting zoo? |
| 21:34 | munin | gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. Quote #84 added. |
| 21:36 | slef | chambawamba! |
| 21:37 | chris | yeah cute little beagles |
| 21:42 | gregb left #koha | |
| 21:43 | cait | good night all |
| 21:43 | cait left #koha | |
| 21:43 | chris | night cait |
| 21:52 | Nate left #koha | |
| 21:56 | joetho left #koha | |
| 21:56 | trea left #koha | |
| 22:07 | collum left #koha | |
| 22:10 | reed | just musing further on Auckland airport arrivals -- it always puts me in a happy mood, cute beagles catching people with oranges, just got off the prison plane -- contrast to the other direction, arriving in america - lot's of cops with guns and so many young soldiers in transit |
| 22:20 | pianohack joined #koha | |
| 22:28 | Mel joined #koha | |
| 22:29 | Mel is now known as Joann | |
| 22:34 | jwagner | Hey, pianohack -- meant to catch up with you earlier. Are you still looking at that holds to pull mod? |
| 22:34 | pianohack | jwagner: Yes, I am. What's up? |
| 22:35 | jwagner | It might get a little complicated for multilibrary sites -- I think you do need to run it by some of them as a proposal first. For instance, at one of my sites, the main branch runs the report for all branches and tells the others what to put in transit. So limiting the report to that branch wouldn't work for them. |
| 22:36 | Others probably do run it by branch. | |
| 22:39 | pianohack | jwagner: That one site you mentioned must have independentbranches off, then |
| 22:39 | jwagner | The one where the main branch runs it, yes. That's a single system with multiple branches. |
| 22:40 | pianohack | That's a doable adaptation; store it in a hidden syspref for non-independent branches (global for the entire system) and on a table column for independentbranches |
| 22:40 | jwagner | I'm not clear enough on the day-to-day workflow to know if your proposed solution could work in a multilibrary setup. |
| 22:41 | I'd suggest writing it up as a concept and maybe putting it on the listserv so people who actually use the report can get a feel for how it might work. | |
| 22:43 | Anyway, wanted to pass that on fyi. | |
| 22:44 | And now I'm going to go have an evening :-) G'night all. | |
| 22:45 | jwagner left #koha | |
| 22:57 | pianohack left #koha | |
| 22:57 | pianohack joined #koha | |
| 23:06 | druthb left #koha | |
| 23:15 | davi left #koha | |
| 23:28 | brendan left #koha |
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