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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:04 | kados | paul_away: you still around? |
| 11:05 | hdl: can you call paul and find out if he has a copy of 2.2.8 we can put on koha.org? | |
| 11:05 | hdl: /me doesn't have one | |
| 11:05 | mail to koha-devel sent | |
| 11:07 | hdl | found one |
| 11:09 | Do you want me to send it to you ? | |
| 11:10 | or do you want to get it on a website ? | |
| 11:18 | kados ? | |
| 11:18 | dewey | hmmm... kados is helping us LibLime folk with something at the moment |
| 11:19 | kados | hdl: sorry |
| 11:19 | hdl: phone call | |
| 11:19 | hdl: can you email it to me? | |
| 11:19 | hdl: jmfliblime.com? |
|
| 11:19 | hdl: maybe put it on a website too? | |
| 11:20 | hdl: :-) | |
| 11:20 | hdl | ok. |
| 11:31 | on koha-fr.org | |
| 11:31 | koha-2.2.8 disponible | |
| 11:32 | kados | thanks! |
| 11:32 | where? | |
| 11:33 | hdl: i don't see a news item, or a download link | |
| 11:34 | hdl | http://www.koha-fr.org/article.php3?id_article=93 |
| 11:34 | (now in recent articles) | |
| 12:02 | kados | hdl: I've changed koha.org links, but they must be 'approved' first by russel |
| 12:21 | owen | kados, did I see that you had made some kind of change in rel_3_0 that allowed for custom headers in templates? |
| 12:22 | Or rch, maybe you know? | |
| 12:27 | Hi slef | |
| 12:27 | slef | hi |
| 12:27 | dewey | bonjour, slef |
| 12:29 | slef | please not google and SVN? A double-whammy of bad technology, just because some people won't do local work in a DVC and you don't want to wait one more day for the service to return? |
| 12:30 | owen | I take it you don't like SVN, slef? |
| 12:31 | slef | indeed... it's replacing one buggy legacy tool (CVS) with a much larger buggy legacy tool |
| 12:31 | If you're going to suffer the pain to fix it, do it properly. | |
| 12:31 | kados | hdl: owen that was me |
| 12:32 | owen: yea, I basically just took the title tab out of the doc-head | |
| 12:33 | slef: all we have is 'some people' :-) | |
| 12:33 | slef | kados: huh? |
| 12:34 | kados | IMO DVCs create unnecessary overhead in managing version control, and in a small community, we can't really afford it |
| 12:35 | plus, we have a hard enough time getting people to wrap their minds around CVS ... | |
| 12:35 | if we switched to something like git or arch, we'd never get any user contribs | |
| 12:36 | slef | I can't see how you work that out. The release manager has to publish their repo, but they do that with a centralised service. |
| 12:36 | Meanwhile, they save time by being able to work locally when needed, only doing the expensive publish when necessary. | |
| 12:36 | kados | we can do the same thing in SVN with branches |
| 12:37 | since we only have 10 or less active developers, that should scale fine for now | |
| 12:37 | slef | I'm not going to argue with your guesses about the future. I just disagree with them. |
| 12:37 | kados | sure, and I certainly appreciate your points |
| 12:37 | slef | CVS scales this far, so why the big pain and bigger clients of SVN? |
| 12:38 | kados | for what it's worth, hdl agrees with you |
| 12:38 | the main reason is that CVS hasn't scaled for us | |
| 12:38 | we've run into barriers with CVS that SVN solves | |
| 12:38 | slef | such as? |
| 12:39 | kados | seemingly simple things like being able to rename directories, files |
| 12:39 | and changing permissions | |
| 12:39 | merging between branches | |
| 12:39 | are a real pain in CVS | |
| 12:40 | slef | They're as much a pain in SVN. Still need to read the manual. |
| 12:40 | Renames excepted. | |
| 12:40 | kados | well we've been using svn at liblime |
| 12:40 | so it's not like I'm just making a snap judgement | |
| 12:40 | we actually really like it | |
| 12:41 | slef | how many of the other candidates have you used? |
| 12:41 | kados | well, arch I've used |
| 12:41 | chris has used git | |
| 12:41 | slef | we use git for pretty much everything at ttllp |
| 12:41 | kados | I haven't found anything that I want to do that I can't in SVN |
| 12:41 | slef | including stuff like koha where we talk to CVS outside |
| 12:42 | kados | I really don't want to spend much bandwidth on the version control system |
| 12:42 | rather devote energy on actual development | |
| 12:42 | slef | So you don't want consensus? You just want to lumber us with SVN@Google and that's it. End of discussion. |
| 12:43 | kados | lumber? |
| 12:43 | slef | saddle, curse, weight down, ... |
| 12:43 | kados | hehe |
| 12:43 | yea, I know what it means | |
| 12:43 | I just don't see how it's going to do that | |
| 12:44 | it's fast, got plenty of backing from a strong organization, with core developers on staff | |
| 12:44 | slef | Why Google? Google is a large evil corporation, rather contraversial in the library community and has just been accused of massive copyright infringement. |
| 12:44 | kados | Google is a large evil corporation? |
| 12:45 | are you kidding? | |
| 12:45 | slef | No. |
| 12:45 | kados | honestly, I don't have time for this |
| 12:45 | slef | When will you? |
| 12:46 | kados | I'd be happy to respond to an email you send to the list |
| 12:46 | but I'm not going to battle it out with you on IRC when you're citing a reason for not going with google is be cause 'google is evil | |
| 12:47 | that's an opinion, and shouldn't be stated as fact | |
| 12:47 | IMO :-) | |
| 12:47 | slef | My comments on why google is evil have been public for at least a year. |
| 12:51 | owen | kados: I've been playing around with YUI's DataTable library, trying to attach it to a copy of an OPAC screen. |
| 12:51 | It's working pretty well, with a few snags. | |
| 12:51 | kados | sweet |
| 12:51 | owen | But I'm wondering about strategies for including the required scripts |
| 12:52 | That's why I was curious about changes to the templates | |
| 12:52 | kados | well, you have two options: host it at yahoo, or store it locally |
| 12:52 | I think if we coded carefully, we could make that a sys pref | |
| 12:52 | owen | Right, but for each page that has a data table you'd need to supply a snippet of custom javascript defining the parameters of that table |
| 12:53 | kados | yea, the changes basically just put the <title>page title</title> bit entirely in the .tmpl file |
| 12:53 | rather than in the doc-head incldues | |
| 12:53 | so you can add new doc-head includes on a template by template basis | |
| 12:53 | does that make sense? | |
| 12:54 | owen | I'm not sure... I'm also not sure about how other applications handle per-page javascript stuff. Do they include it in the scripts that get loaded for the whole site? That seems cumbersome to me, but I don't really know about the overhead |
| 12:55 | I do know that in my local tests using the Yahoo-hosted libraries really slows down page load. | |
| 12:55 | kados | well, that's actually why I did it -- I don't want to load all the yahoo stuff every time |
| 12:55 | it's not going to all need to be on every page | |
| 12:56 | owen | Okay, so that's an issue addressed by your changes. |
| 12:56 | kados | yep |
| 12:57 | owen | Cool. Good to know. The DataTable library is still beta, and it shows...I've already run across a couple of problematic bugs |
| 12:57 | kados | have they been reported yet? |
| 12:57 | what are you using DataTable for? | |
| 12:57 | out of curiosity | |
| 12:58 | owen | Making tables sortable. |
| 13:04 | kados | hehe, I did that too :-) |
| 13:04 | it's pretty slick | |
| 13:04 | that was the first thing I did after I played with grids | |
| 13:10 | slef: I'll happily respond to an on-list post about why you thing SVN/Google is a bad idea | |
| 13:11 | slef | kados: just writing. |
| 13:13 | kados | thx |
| 13:26 | slef | sent btw |
| 13:40 | right, I'm afk for a few hours... please don't break the project while I'm out ;-) | |
| 14:00 | kados | slef: responded |
| 14:33 | owen-away | Am I out of touch? Do librarians really think Google is evil? |
| 14:55 | tnb | owen: I heard some rumblings a few years back, but nothing lately. t |
| 14:56 | owen | I know librarians don't like the fact that Google is replacing them as the go-to guy for information |
| 14:56 | tnb | yeah, that's true |
| 14:56 | owen | And I know /publishers/ don't like the fact that Google is scanning books. |
| 14:56 | tnb | sure |
| 14:56 | owen | But I don't know why librarians should care about that |
| 14:56 | I would think librarians would embrace increased access to texts | |
| 14:57 | kados | yea, to me google's been a real advocate of open access to data |
| 14:57 | I mean, the reason they're being sued over youtube is because of that very issue, right? | |
| 14:58 | tnb | plus, they've hired a company chef to cook healthy gourmet food for their employees ;) |
| 14:58 | owen | Yeah, the fact that Google is being sued over YouTube seems more of a badge of honor than a flaw |
| 14:58 | tnb | ha! |
| 14:58 | owen | :D |
| 14:59 | kados--you hit the nail on the head. | |
| 15:01 | Also, when Google's detractors look like this it's hard to take them seriously: http://www.google-watch.org/ | |
| 15:01 | kados | hehe, that's a funny picture of bill |
| 15:02 | it actually endears him to me :-) | |
| 15:17 | hdl: you there? | |
| 15:17 | hdl: I just got a report that the file is corrupted for 2.2.8 | |
| 15:18 | hdl: confirmed: | |
| 15:18 | gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file | |
| 15:18 | tar: Read 7908 bytes from koha-2.2.8.tar.gz | |
| 15:18 | koha-2.2.8/intranet-html/intranet-tmpl/default/en/bull/searchresultlist.tmpl | |
| 15:18 | koha-2.2.8/intranet-html/intranet-tmpl/default/en/bull/serial-issues.tmpl | |
| 15:18 | tar: Unexpected EOF in archive | |
| 15:18 | tar: Unexpected EOF in archive | |
| 15:18 | tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now | |
| 16:31 | hdl | kados : SH. |
| 16:31 | kados | ? |
| 16:33 | tnb | owen: you around? |
| 16:33 | owen | Yes |
| 16:34 | tnb | this if off Koha topic... but I seem to remember us discovering |
| 16:34 | that we could do 'user groups' with WordPress (when we were investigating voting site) | |
| 16:34 | owen | (did hdl just shush kados??) |
| 16:34 | tnb | ha! I don't know... |
| 16:34 | hdl | No. It was a bad word. |
| 16:34 | tnb | oh, uh oh :/ |
| 16:35 | wha happened? | |
| 16:35 | hdl | kados : I found other tarballs. |
| 16:35 | tnb | kados is on the phone at moment |
| 16:35 | owen | Heh, hdl try "SH**" |
| 16:35 | hdl | I hope they are not corrupted either. |
| 16:35 | owen | tnb, what do you mean by user groups? |
| 16:35 | tnb | owen: do you remember this user group thing, because I cannot at all find which plugin does it now. yep |
| 16:36 | so a person is only in charge of moderating | |
| 16:36 | certain user group | |
| 16:36 | i've been on the wordpress site... was there a hack you rememmber? | |
| 16:37 | owen | I have no recollection of that. Can you describe in more detail what you're trying to do? |
| 16:37 | hdl | Sorry I didnot want to be rude. |
| 16:37 | tnb | hdl: no prob :) |
| 16:37 | kados still on phone :L) | |
| 16:38 | owen: we have several profs adn want them to be in charge of moderating just 'their' students posts | |
| 16:38 | so, a 'user group' for each LIS classroom and when folks sign up, they select their classroom, then prof only responsible for moderating their own students posts (i guess i just repeated myself :/ sorry) | |
| 16:38 | hdl | kados : I send you a new copy I could untar right now. |
| 16:39 | tnb | do you remember any workaround for soemthing like that |
| 16:39 | ? | |
| 16:39 | owen | Sorry tnb, I don't recall working on anything like that. In fact it sounds pretty off-the-wall. I'd be surprised to find something like that pre-written. |
| 16:40 | tnb | huh. ok. it was a longshot :) |
| 16:45 | kados | hdl: hi |
| 16:45 | hdl: so you have a fixed version? | |
| 16:45 | hdl | kados : I just sent you one. (There were 3 versions on paul's machine.) |
| 16:46 | kados | hdl++ |
| 16:46 | hdl | Luckily, I came to my computer at nearly 9PM |
| 16:47 | kados | hdl: thanks! |
| 16:47 | hdl: it's live now | |
| 16:47 | hdl | You're welcome |
| 16:49 | kados | hdl: I tested it, it unpacks successfully |
| 16:49 | hdl: hopefully it's the right 2.2.8 :-) | |
| 17:37 | slef | kados: you are not reading what I write. Your prejudices are showing. |
| 17:37 | 'Google is a corporation and therefore evil' is imaginary. | |
| 17:38 | I'm a member of one of the UK's largest retail corporations. I don't agree that corporations are necessarily evil. | |
| 17:38 | And it's ugly that the discussion moves to demonising so quickly :-( | |
| 18:02 | kados | slef: I haven't demonized anyone |
| 18:24 | hi _paul | |
| 20:16 | slef | kados: I can bring up a test git+cvs server tomorrow. |
| 20:16 | chris | heya slef |
| 20:16 | kados | chris: slef and I have been chatting on #gnu |
| 20:16 | slef: chris and I have been chatting on pmest | |
| 20:16 | slef | trouble is, the server I'd have to use is going to die and its replacement isn't ready for production yet |
| 20:16 | #savannah | |
| 20:16 | kados | pmesg even |
| 20:17 | ahh, right | |
| 20:17 | chris | do you think it would be possible to write up use case of how git and the koha team would work? |
| 20:17 | kados | slef: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software) |
| 20:17 | Git's design is a synthesis of Torvalds' intimate knowledge of maintaining a large distributed development project, and of file system performance. | |
| 20:17 | slef | sure... can you collect the tasks? I'd probably be ripping much from 'everyday git for kernel hackers' |
| 20:18 | kados | slef: A core assumption in Git is that a change will be merged more often than it is written, as it is passed around various reviewers. |
| 20:18 | slef | git's big problem is that Windows support used to be awkward IIRC |
| 20:18 | kados | slef: I'm trying to figure out if we're 'a large distributed project' and also if we want to spend more time merging than writing |
| 20:19 | slef | kados: it's heading that way and almost certainly will if we have 2.2, 3.0s, 3.0z and 3.1 all around at once! |
| 20:19 | kados | slef: my core fear with DVS and Koha is that with only 11 developers, we won't have any incentive to manage a 'project' repository |
| 20:19 | and we'll end up just forking | |
| 20:19 | and fragmenting into 3-4 separate projects | |
| 20:20 | slef | I think the release managers need to keep the project repo. |
| 20:20 | kados | yea, but the prob is, we don't have anyone with time to just handle merging |
| 20:20 | slef | There's always an incentive for others to pull from the project repo: get into the next release. |
| 20:20 | kados | that's my core intention |
| 20:20 | s/intention/contention/ | |
| 20:21 | slef: can you quell my fear regarding that? | |
| 20:21 | slef | We could maybe try to use a robot that tries to merge anything approved. |
| 20:21 | kados | what's the process of approval consist of? |
| 20:22 | slef | Most release managers I know bother to check what's been contributed. |
| 20:22 | chris | its what we really should be doing now anyway |
| 20:22 | *snap* | |
| 20:22 | slef | Whatever we want. GPG-signed, from a particular address or whatever. |
| 20:22 | chris | hmm that could work |
| 20:23 | approved developers get merged automagically | |
| 20:23 | slef | I've done that before, but not with git. |
| 20:23 | kados | I'm skeptical that we have resources to : |
| 20:23 | 1. set that up | |
| 20:23 | 2. maintain it | |
| 20:23 | also, we're at a very important time in the project's hisotry | |
| 20:24 | we really need to roll 3.0 out | |
| 20:24 | slef | Our git-use has been mostly ssh-based with few people. Koha's a bit bigger, but given git scales to linux, I doubt there'll be an impossible problem. |
| 20:24 | kados | we're competing with evergreen now |
| 20:24 | 3.0 is literaly years behind schedule | |
| 20:24 | slef | I can understand the scepticism (I've been crap before) and can only ask for time. |
| 20:25 | chris | one issue that we have now, is that we are really just avoiding the problem |
| 20:25 | slef | I've been hampered with 3.0 work partly because each branch switch feels like a big networked operation. I guess I could keep two working copies. |
| 20:25 | chris | ie not reading the commits, not rejecting bad ones etc |
| 20:26 | kados | google + SVN means I can focus on coding and won't have to worry about the versioning system |
| 20:26 | chris: yea, that's true | |
| 20:26 | slef | I've also struggled with 3.0 because it's undocumented, even in code comments. Even the code style was random last time I looked. |
| 20:26 | kados | slef: amen |
| 20:26 | slef: the search api's well documented | |
| 20:27 | slef: but that's all that I've seen that has anything remotely like code documentation | |
| 20:27 | slef | IMO the problem is that too many focus on code and no-one is focusing on integration, but maybe that's wrong. |
| 20:27 | chris | no i think there is more than a grain of truth in that slef |
| 20:27 | slef | A lot seems to go on on IRC and not be written elsewhere, so my impressions these days are probably a bit off. |
| 20:27 | kados | slef: yea, both good points |
| 20:28 | our core problem is resource related | |
| 20:28 | we're all just scraping to get the stuff done for our clients | |
| 20:28 | don't really have time for the project proper | |
| 20:28 | chris | we let stuff slip, and it ends up costing us in the long run, but we need to eat in the short run |
| 20:28 | kados | yea |
| 20:28 | it's a viscious cycle :( | |
| 20:28 | slef | vicious |
| 20:29 | kados | yea |
| 20:29 | chris | or viscous (spelling?) |
| 20:29 | the sticky stuff | |
| 20:29 | kados | hehe |
| 20:29 | slef | chris: a viscous cycle is a bike that has just been oiled. |
| 20:29 | chris | :0 |
| 20:30 | kados | probably all we need |
| 20:30 | slef | My problems with just switching to google + SVN is it doesn't address either of the main problems with savannah + CVS. |
| 20:31 | kados | phone |
| 20:31 | slef | I see the main problems as failure-resilience and centralisation. |
| 20:31 | kados | hehe |
| 20:31 | slef | ok, someone's just asked me stuff in #savannah |
| 20:31 | s/centralisation/branching/ # probably clearer what I mean | |
| 20:31 | kados | I think the main problem we have is there's no-one handling merges |
| 20:31 | chris | yeah |
| 20:32 | kados | the thing we're annoyed about EG for having :-) |
| 20:32 | chris | maybe git would force us to |
| 20:32 | at citylink they have cone man | |
| 20:33 | someone on call that day (with the traffic cone) | |
| 20:33 | maybe we need merge person (to be all non gender biased) | |
| 20:33 | :) | |
| 20:33 | kados | hehe |
| 20:33 | chris | a role rather than a person, that rotates |
| 20:33 | so feel free to say "thats retarded" | |
| 20:34 | kados | sorry, russ is distracting me :-) |
| 20:34 | I think it's a good idea | |
| 20:34 | slef | no, but how does that person get paid? ;-) |
| 20:34 | kados | what kind of person |
| 20:34 | would be good at that? | |
| 20:34 | and who in our community is that kind of person? | |
| 20:34 | and how will they get paid? :-) | |
| 20:35 | slef | to be honest, stuff I currently do to koha doesn't get merged back promptly at the moment because there seems little incentive to do so |
| 20:36 | (and I'm often not developing it on a machine with a cvs-friendly network connection - or my ssh keys for that matter) | |
| 20:36 | chris | right |
| 20:37 | slef | on the flip side, I like reading code commit mails... I'm still on commit mailing lists for projects I've not used for over a year |
| 20:37 | chris | yep |
| 20:38 | slef | I quite liked compiling the 'what changed in koha this week' mails, but no-one else seemed to appreciate them. |
| 20:38 | chris | ohh i liked those |
| 20:38 | sorry i didnt verbalise that | |
| 20:39 | slef | chris: we're not usually awake at the same time, so I don't hold it against you. |
| 20:39 | chris | i think there are a few ways to be paid for the role |
| 20:39 | slef | It also got a bit tricky with the split branches. |
| 20:40 | chris | but mostly it would boil down to the persons employer being willing to pay them for some time to do it |
| 20:41 | also they may be willing to do some work for non monetary gain outside work hours | |
| 20:41 | for things like kudos :) | |
| 20:41 | i certainly wouldnt mind having a go at it, but certainly not on anything like a fulltime basis | |
| 20:42 | slef | Heh, I'm my employer. I don't have enough koha clients at the moment to justify the time I spend :-/ Even oscommerce is more profitable. I stick around because for non-monetary reasons. |
| 20:42 | chris | but bringing it back .. i think this a problem we will have with whatever version system we use |
| 20:42 | the resource to audit code commits | |
| 20:44 | kados | chris: so I take it you prefer not to be the 'auditor' for Koha commits? |
| 20:45 | chris | no thats fine, i dont mind doing that |
| 20:45 | just not forever | |
| 20:45 | and not if its gonna make my employer go broke :) | |
| 20:46 | kados | hehe |
| 20:46 | chris | if i was doing it, id probably ask for help occasionally too |
| 20:47 | as there undoubtedly will be code i dont grok | |
| 20:47 | slef | thing is, do we need an auditor, or someone saying "this can't be committed because I don't understand it"? |
| 20:47 | chris | but at least id be going "huh???" |
| 20:47 | kados | slef: yea, maybe |
| 20:47 | chris | and asking ppl to explain it |
| 20:48 | kados | or fix it :-) |
| 20:48 | slef | s/committed/& yet/ |
| 20:48 | chris | and then comment it, so i dont go huh?? next time :) |
| 20:48 | kados | hehe |
| 20:50 | slef | does SVN do per-branch permissions? |
| 20:50 | chris | good question, i dont know the answer though |
| 20:51 | http://www.fedoraproject.org/w[…]re/VersionControl | |
| 20:51 | is kinda interesting | |
| 20:51 | slef | I think part of the problem is that the default commit is into the next release, but to do otherwise in CVS (and I guess also SVN) is more work. |
| 20:52 | chris | right |
| 21:17 | slef | wow... #savannah reports it was 3-disks of a 6-disk RAID array failed |
| 21:19 | rather, 2 disks of a 5-disk+1-hotswap array failed | |
| 21:20 | chris | ouch |
| 21:20 | slef | that's a bit unlucky |
| 21:22 | they're just finishing the hardware config and about to restore from backups | |
| 21:23 | chris | cool |
| 21:23 | slef | 560GB over gigabit ethernet |
| 21:23 | then they have to cart it back to the colo | |
| 21:23 | I guess they're in Boston MA. The colo is in Quincy. | |
| 21:23 | chris | ahh, not too far then |
| 21:25 | slef | My US geography is terrible ;-) |
| 21:26 | chris | ive been to a wedding in Boston but it was a while ago now |
| 21:27 | slef | looks like 10mins train if it was here |
| 22:26 | savannah 40% copied | |
| 22:27 | kados | so were they able to restore from raid rather than backup? |
| 22:27 | slef | no, the failure pattern broke the RAID |
| 22:27 | kados | shit |
| 22:27 | so we roll back to Sunday then | |
| 22:30 | chris | kados: you should be able to redo the commits .. from your checkout hopefully |
| 22:30 | kados | naw, it will think they are already done |
| 22:30 | cvs- | |
| 22:30 | - | |
| 22:30 | :-) | |
| 22:30 | chris | hmm will it? |
| 22:31 | kados | yea, the versions are stored in the Entries file |
| 22:31 | and they will conflict with what's on savannah | |
| 22:31 | chris | bummer |
| 22:31 | slef | kados: want an evil way to do it? |
| 22:31 | kados | hehe, sure |
| 22:32 | slef | tar it up, with --exclude CVS, get a new checkout on the right branch, untar over it, commit, run away screaming |
| 22:32 | kados | I'm sure there's some obscene bash onliner that would check out a fresh copy and recursively replace the CVS dir in each of my working copy's dirs with a fresh one |
| 22:32 | hehe | |
| 22:32 | yea, I especially like the part where I get kicked off the project :-) | |
| 22:32 | slef | actually, could be smarter with tar |
| 22:33 | kados | for completely borking CVS :-) |
| 22:33 | slef | only tar up files newer than Sunday 2030 |
| 22:33 | kados | I can see it now 'well first savannah was down for two days, then kados broke the repo' :-) |
| 22:33 | slef | hey, we know they have a backup |
| 22:33 | kados | hehe |
| 22:34 | slef | believe me, you want to be the first to commit in the above way |
| 22:35 | everyone else will probably have to merge ;-) | |
| 22:36 | kados | yea, that's the prob |
| 22:36 | I don't trust that I have the latest version of every dir | |
| 22:36 | so tell me how this would work with git? | |
| 22:37 | slef | we point and laugh at the failed server, then replace it with the release manager's current local copy (or a mirror of it) |
| 22:37 | kados | so the working copy comprehends the whole history? |
| 22:38 | (I like the point and laugh bit) | |
| 22:38 | slef | rather, the local store does |
| 22:38 | so I should have said local store | |
| 22:38 | kados | k |
| 22:38 | slef | or local repo |
| 22:38 | not local copy, which was ambiguous, sorry | |
| 22:38 | kados | np |
| 22:39 | slef | I'm more accurate before 0000 |
| 22:39 | kados | hehe |
| 22:39 | chris | :) |
| 22:39 | kados | hehe |
| 22:39 | slef | boy, the old test system is slooooow |
| 22:40 | and it's the only mipsel now, so I can't distcc | |
| 22:40 | kados | what about the access rules, etc. |
| 22:40 | so there's the RM's repo | |
| 22:40 | people can't commit to that, right? | |
| 22:41 | slef | not unless the RM sets it that way |
| 22:41 | kados | the RM has to merge code into it from other repos? |
| 22:41 | slef | it's up to us, really |
| 22:41 | kados | ok, and renaming dirs, files and changing permissions I assume can be done painlessly |
| 22:42 | slef | lots of choices... CVS actually also gives some of these choices, but no hosting services support it AFAIK |
| 22:42 | chris | yeah you can do all the cleaning up that cvs doesnt let you do |
| 22:42 | slef | git mv, and so on |
| 22:42 | kados | right |
| 22:43 | so if I set up git on one of liblime's servers | |
| 22:43 | and we pointed git.koha.org to it | |
| 22:43 | slef | not sure about chmod, but the build scripts ought to be doing that IMO |
| 22:43 | kados | could we use it in the same way we use CVS right now |
| 22:43 | where every dev has a ssh key, they have write access to the repo, etc. | |
| 22:44 | they each check out a version of it, modify, and commit back? | |
| 22:44 | slef | if you set up git-cvsserver, in exactly the same way I think... http://www.kernel.org/pub/soft[…]it-cvsserver.html |
| 22:45 | kados | CVS clients cannot tag, branch or perform GIT merges. |
| 22:45 | slef | although AIUI each branch would have its own cvsroot |
| 22:46 | CVS clients wouldn't know what a GIT branch is... different level to a CVS branch | |
| 22:46 | You can CVS branch one file, remember. | |
| 22:46 | kados | yea |
| 22:46 | ok, now lets say we set up git | |
| 22:46 | :-) | |
| 22:46 | and chris has a repo | |
| 22:46 | I have a repo | |
| 22:47 | paul has a repo | |
| 22:47 | now chris does some work on acquisitions | |
| 22:47 | and so does paul | |
| 22:47 | noooo! | |
| 22:48 | slef | typical! |
| 22:48 | kados | :-) |
| 22:48 | anyway | |
| 22:48 | slef | I wouldn't host it here, don't worry! |
| 22:48 | kados | so paul, chris and I each have our own repos |
| 22:48 | slef | It would be in London Docklands. |
| 22:48 | kados | and paul and chris both do work on acquisitions |
| 22:48 | in CVS here's what would happen: | |
| 22:49 | paul commits his code | |
| 22:49 | chris commits his code | |
| 22:49 | chris | it doesnt let me |
| 22:49 | kados | he's told to update first |
| 22:49 | chris | it makes me update then it conflicts |
| 22:49 | kados | yep |
| 22:49 | chris | then i have to go fix it |
| 22:49 | kados | he resolves conflicts |
| 22:49 | chris | then i commit |
| 22:49 | kados | and commits |
| 22:49 | done | |
| 22:49 | what's the step by step if we had git | |
| 22:49 | for getting both paul and chris's code into cvs | |
| 22:49 | into my repo I mean :-) | |
| 22:49 | chris | and meanwhile paul has committed again and i have to do it again:) |
| 22:49 | slef | paul commits his code |
| 22:50 | chris commits his code | |
| 22:50 | kados | ... |
| 22:50 | slef | then probably when chris tries to push to paul, it asks him to merge |
| 22:51 | kados | why is chris pushing to paul? |
| 22:51 | slef | (but git does better at conflict resolution than cvs IME) |
| 22:51 | oh wait | |
| 22:51 | are both pushing to you? | |
| 22:51 | kados | yea |
| 22:51 | slef | well, whoever is pushing second may get need to merge |
| 22:51 | s/get/ | |
| 22:52 | chris | yep |
| 22:52 | i could also push to paul if i wanted | |
| 22:52 | kados | hmmm |
| 22:52 | slef | depends if you have edited the exact same lines incompatibly |
| 22:52 | kados | hang on |
| 22:52 | slef | yeah, if kados's server blows up, chris can push to paul |
| 22:52 | kados | I thought that when you push it becomes a branch |
| 22:53 | slef | or if chris decides "I don't have time to merge right now" he can quickly mail to paul and try to persuade paul to merge it ;-) |
| 22:53 | kados | see that's what I'm worried about right there |
| 22:53 | chris | yeah i can say "paul ive done a bunch of work an acqui, can you git-pull it" |
| 22:53 | kados | right now, I have made the case to everyone |
| 22:53 | somewhat successfuly | |
| 22:54 | that we all need to commit our work to CVS and stick with the project | |
| 22:54 | where's the incentive to do all this push-pull with git? | |
| 22:54 | i dunno if that's a legitimate question or not | |
| 22:54 | slef | well, what's the incentive to do it with CVS? It doesn't change. |
| 22:54 | chris | yeah, its a person problem |
| 22:54 | kados | well with CVS you have to resolve conflicts if you want any kind of version control |
| 22:55 | with git you have version control without resolving conflicts | |
| 22:55 | chris | id still have to do that locally |
| 22:55 | slef | In fact, the wider range of ways to push/pull/mail/clone and so on will probably encourage it. |
| 22:55 | chris | if i wanted anyone elses code |
| 22:55 | slef | kados: erm, no, you can run other version control systems on CVS working copies |
| 22:56 | chris | otherwise its the same as me grabbing the files and running my own local cvs repo |
| 22:56 | ie if i didnt want to participate in the project and commit my code back now, cvs isnt forcing me .. i could just do what the south americans did | |
| 22:56 | kados | maybe my idea about how software development should work is the problem here |
| 22:57 | chris | people have to want to commit back |
| 22:57 | kados | my core assumption is that it's a good thing that we all have to see each other's code |
| 22:57 | slef | I want to, but current situation means it doesn't happen soon enough and that makes the task bigger. |
| 22:58 | kados | esp since there are only about 10 of us |
| 22:58 | chris | yep, and with git that would still happen |
| 22:58 | kados | and probably only about 4 that commit regularly |
| 22:58 | would we have a koha-git log of every commit? | |
| 22:58 | chris | ie i would pull from your (The release managers) repo |
| 22:59 | slef | with git it could happen more... I could git-format-patch stuff to email and ask 'Is this worth tidying up into a commit?' |
| 22:59 | chris | yes git does good logs |
| 23:00 | kados | I think the biggest problem is that we need to all agree on how exactly our releases should be developed :-) |
| 23:00 | i envision the following basic procedure for a stable branch: | |
| 23:01 | 1. build a release | |
| 23:01 | 2. fix some bugs, minor new features | |
| 23:01 | 3. test | |
| 23:01 | 4. build a release | |
| 23:01 | 5. start over at 2 | |
| 23:01 | slef | random point: put everything, including roadmaps and so on, into the repo. There are times (trains, some customer sites) when I can hack but don't have good network access. |
| 23:01 | kados | in reality, we're a diverse group |
| 23:01 | so while I'm at step 2, paul might be at step 3 | |
| 23:02 | slef: yea good point | |
| 23:02 | chris | yep, its all policy |
| 23:02 | kados | that's where our conflict happens |
| 23:02 | slef | (but koha is better than many at documenting/commenting... I know at least two projects I use a lot who put 'See http://inaccessible' in the READMEs.) |
| 23:02 | kados | so right now for instance |
| 23:02 | paul is ready for #4 | |
| 23:02 | but I'm still at #2 with 3.0 :-) | |
| 23:03 | and parts #3 | |
| 23:03 | chris | right, thats not a problem git or svn or mecurial could fix |
| 23:03 | kados | yea |
| 23:03 | so maybe the thing we ultimately need to do | |
| 23:03 | is have better communication between the developers | |
| 23:03 | slef | bring back the town hall? |
| 23:03 | kados | about a release schedule |
| 23:04 | chris | yeah, town hall was good too |
| 23:04 | kados | once 3.0's sufficiently stable |
| 23:04 | we shoudl aim for quarterly releases or something | |
| 23:04 | that follow a consistant pattern | |
| 23:04 | slef | and also I think each RM could take a step back from coding and get more done by getting particular contributions... sort of commissioning |
| 23:04 | kados | and maybe we can align our schedules so that we're all building at the same time, testing at the same time |
| 23:04 | and when it comes time to build the relase, we're all ready for it | |
| 23:05 | slef: yea, that's nice in theory, but in practice, the RMs are also the lead developers :-) | |
| 23:05 | slef | sad as it may sound, I think we need a developer portal |
| 23:05 | chris | yeah |
| 23:05 | i started that in 2000 | |
| 23:06 | kados | it's a receipe for disaster |
| 23:06 | I actually didn't intend to be a lead developer :-) | |
| 23:06 | chris | http://developer.koha.org/ i didnt get far |
| 23:06 | kados | honestly :-) |
| 23:06 | chris | :) |
| 23:06 | actually i lie, that used to have stuff there | |
| 23:06 | slef | anyone want to buy me a new connection to nz |
| 23:06 | with a banner on the top "this is build season/ this is new features season/ this is freeze season" | |
| 23:06 | kados | hehe |
| 23:06 | chris | but it was so old an out of date i took out in about 2003 |
| 23:07 | good idea | |
| 23:07 | kados | clever |
| 23:07 | seasons | |
| 23:07 | I like it | |
| 23:07 | slef | maybe the wiki could do this most easily |
| 23:07 | but I have a love-hate with that wiki | |
| 23:07 | chris | heh |
| 23:07 | kados | yea, me too |
| 23:07 | sometimes it doesn't handle authentication properly | |
| 23:07 | you too? | |
| 23:07 | chris | yeah i have a love hate with all wiki's |
| 23:07 | kados | yea |
| 23:08 | one season per month | |
| 23:08 | chris | i do think putting the roadmap and things in the repo is a fantastic idea |
| 23:08 | kados | yea, definitely |
| 23:08 | for me, finding a roadmap format is difficult | |
| 23:09 | it's a tough thing to represent | |
| 23:09 | chris | yep |
| 23:09 | kados | not like building a house |
| 23:09 | where you can actually draw everything | |
| 23:09 | slef | probably more normal to do a simple TODO in the repo |
| 23:09 | chris | yep |
| 23:09 | slef | or you could put a dot file in there if you're evil |
| 23:10 | chris | i think that having a place where ppl update what they are currently working on would help |
| 23:10 | chris - acquisitions receiving orders 2007-03-15 | |
| 23:11 | so that when i come along to work, i can look and see, oh hey paul said he is working on that, ill ping him and see what hes up to | |
| 23:11 | kados | right |
| 23:11 | chris | might be at our portal |
| 23:11 | or wiki | |
| 23:11 | kados | dotproject maybe |
| 23:12 | chris | maybe that |
| 23:12 | dewey | i heard maybe that was a clue. I know that data size errors have caused Koha to stop functioning when a value was arbitrarily truncated. |
| 23:12 | kados | ok, so just a sec |
| 23:12 | I just had a random thought about git | |
| 23:12 | question actually | |
| 23:12 | so in our scenerio in cvs we have the following commands: | |
| 23:12 | cvs commit (paul) | |
| 23:12 | cvs commit (chris) | |
| 23:13 | cvs update (chris) | |
| 23:13 | cvs commit (chris) | |
| 23:13 | what would it be in git? | |
| 23:13 | git commit (paul) | |
| 23:13 | git commit (chris) | |
| 23:13 | git merge (chris) | |
| 23:13 | git merge (paul) | |
| 23:13 | resolve conflict | |
| 23:13 | git commit (paul) | |
| 23:13 | right? | |
| 23:13 | slef | not quite |
| 23:13 | git commit (paul) | |
| 23:14 | git commit (chris) | |
| 23:14 | git pull (chris) | |
| 23:14 | git merge (chris) | |
| 23:14 | git pull (paul) | |
| 23:14 | or the equivalent with push | |
| 23:14 | you missed paul's cvs update off, by the way | |
| 23:14 | if you mean to leave them with the same latest files | |
| 23:15 | kados | right |
| 23:15 | yea, so is it more commands in git than cvs to result in the same state? | |
| 23:15 | (not that that's the only measure of git's worth :_)) | |
| 23:15 | (just something I thought of) | |
| 23:15 | chris | the conflict resolution/merge is much smarter |
| 23:15 | slef | should be the same number of operations |
| 23:16 | how many commands depends on the nature of the changes and conflicts | |
| 23:17 | kados | I know I could use some better development habits |
| 23:17 | like diff and patch are not really my friends | |
| 23:18 | chris | the nice thing with git is it has stuff like |
| 23:18 | kados | and I always worry when I do a cvs update and cvs merges that while it may have successfully merged code, I have no way of knowing if the result is sematicallly correct |
| 23:18 | chris | git-send-email(1) |
| 23:18 | Send a collection of patches as emails. | |
| 23:19 | kados | ie, I could have a successful cvs update that results in code that doesn't compile |
| 23:19 | chris | and git-format-patch |
| 23:19 | kados | or that does wild and unexpected tings :-) |
| 23:19 | slef | kados: that's more about testing than version control. You can help that, but not really force it. |
| 23:20 | kados | yea |
| 23:20 | it's a people problem again :-) | |
| 23:20 | chris: *nod* | |
| 23:21 | slef | one git safeguard that I think is now on by default is that you can name exactly which files get committed, so no more accidental commits... it sounds a pain, but I actually find it useful. |
| 23:21 | kados | cvs has that too, eh? |
| 23:21 | chris | the thing too remember with git, merging is as easy as it can be, cos the linux guys get patches out the ying yang |
| 23:21 | kados | yea |
| 23:21 | chris | so its all about making their life easier |
| 23:21 | slef | I have a script that marks any file mentioned in my Changelog for commit... if something I expect to be committed isn't marked, then I've missed it from the Changelog |
| 23:22 | kados: if you do cvs commit in a dir, it checks in everything it can find and then some | |
| 23:22 | not sure if you can stop that | |
| 23:22 | kados | well you can say cvs commit filename1 filename2 etc |
| 23:24 | slef: btw, I had no idea that Richard Stallman was so hard to deal with ... based on #savannah sounds like he's pretty stubbrn :-) | |
| 23:25 | slef | erm, he's not hard to deal with |
| 23:25 | but he is extremely stubborn | |
| 23:25 | kados | not prioritizing savannah was a big mistake ... a two day outage for hundreds of free software projects could make national news |
| 23:25 | slef | If RMS has decided, forget changing it, IME. |
| 23:26 | kados | it's something that microsoft just waits to point to |
| 23:26 | slef | nah, the news media are still going on about the GPG security problem |
| 23:27 | kados | hehe |
| 23:27 | slef | http://www.scmagazine.com/us/n[…]ing-like-attacks/ |
| 23:28 | kados | jeez that's bad |
| 23:28 | only affects email? | |
| 23:28 | slef | yep |
| 23:28 | kados | not too bad then |
| 23:29 | but definitely embarassing | |
| 23:29 | :) | |
| 23:29 | slef | also, GPG users && html mail link clickers && banks using GPG is approximately 0 |
| 23:29 | kados | yea |
| 23:29 | slef | but don't get me onto banks and secure email |
| 23:30 | kados | yea, sending statements and such via email is a bad idea |
| 23:30 | slef: do you know anyone at gna? | |
| 23:31 | I'm curious if they've got redundency | |
| 23:32 | slef | I know people who used to be at gna. |
| 23:35 | http://emergency.gna.org/ | |
| 23:36 | https://gna.org/file/diagram.s[…]s.png?file_id=479 | |
| 23:37 | https://gna.org/cookbook/?func[…]litem&item_id=105 | |
| 23:38 | kados | slef: what about cvs history, can we import history into git? |
| 23:39 | slef | http://www.kernel.org/pub/soft[…]vs-migration.html |
| 23:39 | in short: yes | |
| 23:39 | in long: requires additional software, hammers the cvs server | |
| 23:40 | aside: this is how I run git on top of koha's cvs | |
| 23:45 | kados | slef: on another note |
| 23:46 | slef: what would you say to the idea of doing autoconf/automake for koha 3.0? | |
| 23:46 | slef | eek |
| 23:46 | but I see where you're coming from | |
| 23:46 | set up zebra (and yaz?) | |
| 23:46 | kados | yea, maybe |
| 23:46 | just generally clean up the install process | |
| 23:47 | slef | I'm a bit stuck with MakeMaker... it's not really designed for cgi-bin |
| 23:47 | kados | which is so hard right now |
| 23:48 | slef | having the directory structure tidied would help MakeMaker |
| 23:48 | also I need to find a bit of time to ask debian's pkg-perl people | |
| 23:48 | kados | we're getting there in 3.0 |
| 23:48 | slef | as they must have done this before |
| 23:48 | kados | directory structure tidying I mean |
| 23:48 | slef | There are so many options (MakeMaker, Module::Build, PAR, ...) and none seem quite right. Not sure that autoconf is either tbh. |
| 23:49 | kados | do you have some time to spend on this? |
| 23:49 | tidying up our install process is a major goal of 3.0 | |
| 23:49 | slef | Can do next week. |
| 23:49 | kados | sweet, thx |
| 23:50 | slef | jabber or mail me if I don't start emailing Mon/Tue |
| 23:50 | kados | hehe, will do |
| 00:34 | slef | http://owu.towers.org.uk/planets/koha/ |
| 00:34 | There's also an index.rss in there if you want to subscribe. | |
| 00:34 | chris | cool :) |
| 00:34 | slef | call it beta until next week |
| 00:36 | I think that could be where we mention "I'm current working on X" | |
| 00:36 | chris | good idea |
| 00:42 | sleep well | |
| 00:43 | slef | ta |
| 01:07 | chris | been trying it out? |
| 01:08 | kados | not yet |
| 01:08 | about to | |
| 01:08 | we don't really have a server for repos | |
| 01:08 | chris | if you want you can clone my kohabot project |
| 01:08 | kados | :( |
| 01:08 | k | |
| 01:09 | chris | 2 secs lemme set it up |
| 01:10 | kados | http://code.google.com/soc/ |
| 01:11 | they still have it down for the 14th :-) | |
| 01:11 | wonder if people work overtime there | |
| 01:12 | chris | pacific time they have a few hours yet |
| 01:12 | kados | ahh, right |
| 01:12 | hehe | |
| 01:16 | hmmm | |
| 01:16 | Git does not explicitly record file revision relationships at any level below the source code tree | |
| 01:17 | looks like viewing change history on a single file is somewhat complicated | |
| 01:18 | maybe it's abstracted by the tools though | |
| 01:18 | chris | git log filename |
| 01:18 | seems to work fine | |
| 01:19 | ok wanna try something? | |
| 01:20 | kados | sure |
| 01:24 | chris | sorry firewall issues, 2 secs |
| 01:29 | kados | hmmm, there's a git on debian that's different |
| 01:29 | it's a file browser/viewser and process viewer/killer :-) | |
| 01:29 | guess gotta install from source | |
| 01:30 | chris | i didnt, i installed the debian one |
| 01:30 | but thats unstable | |
| 01:30 | kados | etch? |
| 01:30 | chris | debian unstable |
| 01:30 | i never know the names | |
| 01:31 | kados | sarge is stable and I think etch is unstable |
| 01:31 | is it stable<-unstable<-testing ? | |
| 01:31 | chris | i think etch might be testing |
| 01:31 | no stable testing unstable experimental | |
| 01:31 | kados | ahh, right |
| 01:31 | yea, so etch is testing | |
| 01:35 | well I'm too tired :-) | |
| 01:35 | I better git to bed :-) | |
| 01:35 | chris | :) |
| 01:36 | git clone 203.97.214.51:/home/chris/kohabotshared/ kohabot | |
| 01:36 | if i could beat my firewall into shape | |
| 01:36 | would get you a copy | |
| 01:38 | fixed it i think | |
| 09:48 | kados | LibLime was selected for 'Google Summer of Code' |
| 09:48 | yay! :-) | |
| 09:50 | Lea | hi guys |
| 09:50 | congrats kados | |
| 09:50 | owen | What does that mean kados? |
| 09:50 | kados | it means that google will pay students to work for us :-) |
| 09:51 | on any of the ideas we list on our 'ideas page' : | |
| 09:51 | http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.p[…]summerofcodeideas | |
| 09:51 | hdl | Hi. |
| 09:51 | Wow. | |
| 09:51 | kados | (so if you have some ideas to list, by all means do) |
| 09:51 | hdl: is toins still a student? | |
| 09:51 | hdl: if so, he should sign up | |
| 09:51 | hdl | yes. |
| 09:51 | kados | good for his resume too |
| 09:51 | hdl | I shall tell him. |
| 09:51 | kados | thanks |
| 09:52 | hdl | He will try to work on opensharetags with three friends of his. |
| 09:52 | for a work for University | |
| 09:52 | kados | can someone add the idea to http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.p[…]ummerofcodeideas? |
| 09:52 | what is opensharetags? | |
| 09:53 | hdl | A way to share social bookmarks tags wetween ilses. |
| 09:53 | Paul's idea. | |
| 09:53 | kados | cool |
| 10:17 | owen | kados--I was just looking at the Summer of Code page. You're in really good company there!! |
| 10:20 | kados | yea, it's quite an honor |
| 10:25 | hdl: is toins around? we should discuss his idea asap | |
| 10:26 | PaulShannon: morning .. how'd the tar.gz work out for you? | |
| 10:26 | PaulShannon | Anyone have some time to answer some basic development questions about Koha? |
| 10:33 | tnb | hdl: do you know anything about Spanish Koha Users Groups? There's a question on teh mailing list about it, plus I've been wanting to collect information about Spanish-speaking userss |
| 10:34 | I seem to remembering stumbling across a site awhile back.... | |
| 10:55 | PaulShannon | Does anyone have some sample bib data I can dump in for evaluation? |
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