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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:35 | btoumi | kados: are u around? |
| 12:35 | tumer | btoumi:is there a meeting tonight? |
| 12:36 | btoumi | tumer: hi tumer how are u tonight? |
| 12:37 | tumer: yes i konw | |
| 12:37 | tumer | do you know is there a meeting? |
| 12:37 | kados | there is a meeting at GMT 20:00 |
| 12:38 | I think that's in about 40 minutes, right? | |
| 12:38 | tumer | btoumi:i have been very busy lately, how are you in general? |
| 12:38 | kados | T-MINUS 40 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING |
| 12:39 | tumer | are you sure about this timing? |
| 12:40 | btoumi | hi kados: |
| 12:40 | tumer | i think 2 hrs 40 minutes to GMT 20:00 |
| 12:40 | kados | you're right |
| 12:41 | T-MINUS 2 HOURS 40 MINUTES TO KOHA MEETING | |
| 12:41 | tumer | see you than, i am working on acquisitions module |
| 12:42 | btoumi | kados: when u have time can i ask u some details about koha server needs |
| 12:42 | kados | btoumi: now is a good time |
| 12:42 | hehe | |
| 12:44 | btoumi | kados: sorry i ve lost my connexion |
| 12:44 | kados | btoumi: now is a good time |
| 12:44 | dewey | i already had it that way, kados. |
| 12:45 | btoumi | ok i think so but i u check ure email we can see about this tommorow |
| 12:45 | kados | btoumi: sure |
| 12:46 | btoumi | like u want u decide u are the boss ;=) |
| 12:46 | kados | now is a good time for me |
| 12:46 | btoumi | ok now |
| 12:47 | can i have some details about network materials u use in ure library? | |
| 12:47 | kados | network materials? |
| 12:47 | btoumi | sorry for my english |
| 12:47 | kados | (also, I don't work for a library anymore :-)) |
| 12:47 | btoumi | ok |
| 12:47 | kados | (I work at liblime.com now) |
| 12:47 | I can tell you how we have NPL set up | |
| 12:48 | there is one gateway router to the internet ... which is provided by the state | |
| 12:49 | then an internal router does NAT on one interface for the LAN | |
| 12:49 | btoumi | what sort of server do u have for koha |
| 12:49 | ? | |
| 12:49 | kados | the other interal interface provides a DMZ for all the servers |
| 12:49 | the current Koha server is quite old | |
| 12:50 | it is a 99MHZ Pentium with about 2 gigs of RAM | |
| 12:50 | 900MHZ I mean | |
| 12:50 | and 7200RPM drives (slow) | |
| 12:50 | the new server is much nicer | |
| 12:50 | it's the one that zoomopac.liblime.com is running on | |
| 12:51 | it has 4 gigs of ram and 10000RPM drives, and a 2GHZ processor | |
| 12:51 | btoumi | do u have different serveur? |
| 12:51 | for example one server for mysql | |
| 12:51 | kados | not currently |
| 12:52 | btoumi | ok |
| 12:52 | kados | in the past we did something similar |
| 12:52 | we had three servers set up: | |
| 12:52 | with mysql replication | |
| 12:52 | one server was master (all writes) | |
| 12:52 | two were slaves (read only) | |
| 12:53 | and all search requests were performed on the slaves | |
| 12:53 | it worked quite well | |
| 12:54 | btoumi | your server works only with koha or u have another web site or other applications |
| 12:54 | ? | |
| 12:54 | kados | only KOha |
| 12:54 | btoumi | ok |
| 12:54 | kados | how many records do you have in the collection>? |
| 12:55 | btoumi | ~250000 notice |
| 12:55 | kados | ahh, yes |
| 12:55 | for that size you will need to either: | |
| 12:55 | 1. use 2.4 (with zebra) | |
| 12:55 | 2. do mysql replication | |
| 12:55 | or else it will be quite slow | |
| 12:56 | btoumi | but i think we work with only one server |
| 12:56 | we discuss about this with paul | |
| 12:57 | and he said me that we can choose quadriprocessor 8 go ram 4 scsi disc | |
| 12:59 | i think it's good solution | |
| 12:59 | peraph's the best | |
| 13:00 | kados | I don't think throwing more hardware will help much |
| 13:00 | it's also necessary to fine tune mysql | |
| 13:01 | and even then, there's only so much you can do | |
| 13:01 | the problem is one of design | |
| 13:01 | in the code | |
| 13:01 | and the db | |
| 13:01 | which is why we choose Zebra in the first place :-) | |
| 13:02 | btoumi | yep |
| 13:03 | tumer | btoumi:we have more than 200K records at the momemt, with zebra even one server is very satisfactory |
| 13:04 | have zebra running on a differnt disk than mysql and it works fine | |
| 13:04 | btoumi | tumer: uthink that separate zebra and mysql is a good think |
| 13:05 | in different disk | |
| 13:05 | tumer | yes i think its better to have them running on different disks |
| 13:05 | btoumi | ok it's a good thinks |
| 13:06 | it's a solution | |
| 13:06 | tumer: do u have windows server or linux server? | |
| 13:06 | tumer | windows server |
| 13:06 | never managed to get linux running | |
| 13:07 | btoumi | ok |
| 13:07 | tumer | and kados did not give me space to try on his server:( |
| 13:07 | btoumi | ;=) |
| 13:08 | tumer | with zebra whether you are searching 200k records or 100k its the same |
| 13:08 | btoumi | ok |
| 13:09 | but zebra use lot of memory ? | |
| 13:09 | tumer | but we fixed opacs to return 10 results per page |
| 13:09 | no zebra uses very small memory | |
| 13:10 | btoumi | ah ok |
| 13:10 | tumer | about 36 Mb at maximumum |
| 13:10 | zebra search is miliseconds, retrieval is slower | |
| 13:11 | btoumi | we need only 36 Mb RAM for zebra u think |
| 13:11 | tumer: | |
| 13:11 | tumer | for indexing at first you need as much as you can give |
| 13:12 | but for server i checked it even at busy times it never recahes 36Mb limit | |
| 13:12 | btoumi | but zebra don't indexing all the time? |
| 13:13 | tumer | i mean indexing the first time (all the records) |
| 13:13 | btoumi | yes i think so in migration part |
| 13:13 | tumer | firdt time indexing about 200Mb is very good |
| 13:14 | btoumi | we take a 6go or 8 go ram i think |
| 13:15 | tumer | we currently use 2Ghz pentium 1Gb memory (2 will be better) with RAID SCSI disks |
| 13:16 | kados:have some time? | |
| 13:17 | btoumi | ok thanks tumer: and kados for yr answer |
| 13:17 | tumer | see you tonight btoumi |
| 13:17 | btoumi | peraphs i ask u something tommorow |
| 13:17 | tumer | staying for IRC? |
| 13:17 | btoumi | yes |
| 13:18 | kados | tumer: not at the moment, I'm headed out to get lunch |
| 13:18 | tumer: I'll be back in 30 minutes or so | |
| 13:18 | btoumi | good lunch kados |
| 13:18 | tumer | k, acquisitions questions later than |
| 13:18 | kados | pauls' better for acquisitions anyway |
| 13:18 | and hdl | |
| 13:18 | maybe add your questions to the meeting agenda? | |
| 13:18 | tumer | but they are probably asleep |
| 13:19 | kados | no ... they will be at the meeting |
| 14:30 | :-) | |
| 14:31 | tumer[A] | owen ++ for template |
| 14:37 | paul | I try to beat tumer as the largest commiter in a few minuts. |
| 14:37 | but I won't succed i'm "afraid" ;-) | |
| 14:37 | kados | paul: in what branch? |
| 14:37 | tumer | paul:i am having problems with rel_3 acquisitions does it work and with which templates do you know |
| 14:38 | paul | i've removed opac/default in rel_2_2 |
| 14:38 | tumer: you should ask toins, but PROG templates are supposed to work. | |
| 14:38 | although I did not test them at all | |
| 14:38 | tumer | well they do not, actually acquisitions dont work any working branch? |
| 14:39 | alaurin | hi everybody |
| 14:40 | paul | tumer : i don't understand |
| 14:40 | hi alaurin | |
| 14:40 | btoumi | hi all |
| 14:40 | chris | morning |
| 14:41 | tumer | paul:do you know any rel_? that acquisitions properly work? |
| 14:41 | paul | hello chris (not really morning here) |
| 14:41 | rel_2 works | |
| 14:41 | chris | 7.41 am here :) |
| 14:42 | tumer | 22:41 in Cyprus |
| 14:42 | paul | 9:41PM here |
| 14:42 | alaurin | tumer is winning |
| 14:42 | chris | :-) |
| 14:45 | tumer | which country is it that uses GST, Brits use VAT Fench use TAV (i think) we use KDV who is GST? |
| 14:46 | toins_:hi my man!! | |
| 14:46 | paul | france is TVA |
| 14:46 | toins_ | hi tumer |
| 14:46 | dewey | rumour has it hi tumer is still strugling |
| 14:46 | tumer | sorry paul my broken french |
| 14:48 | also acquisitions sets the beginning of budgets or end of budgets to end of June (where for us its January, Brits April and so on) | |
| 14:48 | paul | the budgets are as you want tumer. |
| 14:48 | tumer | toins are you here? |
| 14:48 | paul | in France, we have jan => dec |
| 14:48 | chris | nz is GST |
| 14:48 | and australia | |
| 14:49 | toins_ | tumer: yep |
| 14:49 | tumer | well i have found code that budgets are defined to end in July unless you set it |
| 14:50 | toins: i cannot get rel_3 acquisitions to work have you tested it all? | |
| 14:51 | toins | tumer: normally all should be almost good on rel_3 acquisitions.... |
| 14:52 | i can't test now, this computer hasen't koha installed | |
| 14:52 | tumer | let me rephrase that: is it the prog templates that supposed to work cause some modules seem to work with default templates and some not |
| 14:52 | toins | rel_3_0 can only work with prog template |
| 14:52 | default & npl template has been deleted on this branch | |
| 14:53 | tumer | well i am still struggling as dewey says |
| 14:53 | toins | heh |
| 14:53 | e | |
| 14:54 | kados | T-MINUS 5 minutes to Koha Meeting |
| 14:54 | toins | tumer: what's your problem exactly ? |
| 14:54 | prog template aren't good enough for you ? ;-) | |
| 14:55 | tumer | well i add an order but when i search for it i do not get it back so i cannot go further than there |
| 14:55 | kados | MEETING AGENDA: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]ndandnotes06sep13 |
| 14:55 | thd | tumer: can you find the order in the DB the directly? |
| 14:57 | paul | tumer : just create a strong & stable API for catalogue, and we will take care of acquisition module on rel_3_0, with prog templates. |
| 14:59 | tumer | i can find things in DB directly |
| 14:59 | thd | tumer: and they have invoice numbers saved? |
| 14:59 | tumer | paul:Catalogue API is finished , works with prog templates |
| 15:00 | thd: i have modifieds it to save invoice number | |
| 15:00 | kados | everyone ready to start the meeting? |
| 15:00 | roll call first ... who's here? | |
| 15:00 | tumer | yep |
| 15:00 | chris | me |
| 15:00 | alaurin | yes |
| 15:00 | paul | (and tumer seems to have started ;-) ) |
| 15:00 | tumer | me 2 |
| 15:00 | kados | hehe |
| 15:01 | cool ... I'd say that quorum | |
| 15:01 | so the agenda's pretty slim | |
| 15:01 | anyone have anything they'd like to add before we get started? | |
| 15:01 | thd | maybe if my system s finished thrashing |
| 15:01 | paul | yes, but the content quite huge ! |
| 15:01 | kados | paul: true :-) |
| 15:02 | paul | just some words about 2.2.6 |
| 15:02 | (to add to the agenda) | |
| 15:02 | & maybe we could start with this. | |
| 15:02 | kados | ok, that can be in the rel_2_2 section |
| 15:02 | sure let's begin, take us away paul | |
| 15:03 | paul | i've installed 2.2.6RC3 (unofficial RC) to 1 of my library. |
| 15:03 | they reported me 2 unimarc specific problems, and nothing more. | |
| 15:03 | kados | good news |
| 15:03 | paul | i've worked on bugzilla, to clean all bugs declared affected to me. |
| 15:03 | kados | paul++ |
| 15:03 | paul | I can see 33 bugs still open & related to rel_2_2 |
| 15:04 | only 7 being blo or critical. | |
| 15:04 | kados | so maybe we should schedule a bug squash meeting? |
| 15:04 | paul | and all of them waiting for an answer from you or chris. |
| 15:04 | kados | ok |
| 15:04 | chris | hmm, ill look through those after the meeting and put in answers |
| 15:04 | paul | toins sended a mail to koha-devel, but you didn't answer |
| 15:05 | kados | which email? |
| 15:05 | chris | hmm i dont recall that |
| 15:05 | toins | i'have writed a sum up on koha-devel |
| 15:05 | kados: "about bugs in rel_2_2" | |
| 15:05 | chris | yeah i didnt notice it either |
| 15:05 | kados | ahh ... I see now |
| 15:05 | chris | whats the subject line? |
| 15:06 | kados | "about bugs in rel_2_2" |
| 15:06 | sent on Sept 06 | |
| 15:06 | hehe | |
| 15:06 | chris | not even joking :) |
| 15:06 | all the way back from 1999 | |
| 15:06 | kados | cool |
| 15:07 | chris | toins/paul: ill put comments on the bugs after the meeting |
| 15:07 | kados | same here |
| 15:07 | chris | so be ready for you tomorrow france time |
| 15:07 | toins | chris: ok |
| 15:07 | paul | ok. |
| 15:07 | those bugs fixed or not fixed, do you agree for a 2.2.6 official release | |
| 15:07 | ? | |
| 15:07 | (with proper release notes warning for unfixed problems) ? | |
| 15:08 | kados | yes, so long as the relase notes clearly define what we know is broken |
| 15:08 | paul | ok, then we all agree, so i've nothing to add to 2.2.6 |
| 15:08 | thd | I have a concern about competing concepts of blocking bugs |
| 15:09 | kados | thd: what is your perception of this topic? |
| 15:09 | thd | some people namely kados are considering bugs blocking if it blocks there ability to market their services yet the program functions |
| 15:09 | kados | (paul, since acquisitions is broken, that should be acknoledged as well in release notes) |
| 15:10 | thd | kados: I think we should have some additional value to indicate blocked for marketing |
| 15:10 | kados | hmmm |
| 15:10 | to me a blocker is: | |
| 15:11 | 1. any 500 or 404 error and a link that leads to such | |
| 15:11 | 2. a function that doesn't work as advertised (like acquisitions in rel_2_2) | |
| 15:11 | 3. anything causing data loss | |
| 15:12 | I think all of the bugs I've marked as a blocker are one of those three | |
| 15:12 | paul | for 1 & 2, i would add => and that can't be done in another way with Koha. |
| 15:12 | but I know kados & me disagree here | |
| 15:12 | kados | so I'm not sure I 100% agree with thd on my motives :-) |
| 15:12 | tumer | yes but i think any official release should not have 404 or 500 and just give notice |
| 15:13 | thd | kados: I agree that paul's concept of blocking as the traditional concept |
| 15:13 | kados | so just to be clear on the point that paul and I disagree on |
| 15:13 | paul thinks that it's ok as long as there is a workaround somewhere else | |
| 15:13 | paul: is that a fair characterization? | |
| 15:13 | tumer | i agree with kados |
| 15:14 | chris | speaking of 500 errors |
| 15:14 | paul | kados: yes. |
| 15:14 | chris | we should make a 500.html page, and set apache to use that for 500 errors |
| 15:14 | thd | kados: I do not impute your motives of course, and I understand that users may perceive most anything as blocking including being troubled by colour choice in the default CSS |
| 15:14 | chris | that says things like check the error logs, report bugs at bugs.koha.org etc |
| 15:15 | kados | so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug? |
| 15:15 | toins | chris: i think 500.html is already done |
| 15:15 | kados | chris: I think we have that already |
| 15:15 | chris | hmm but not set by default? |
| 15:15 | or does it do that for 2.2.6? | |
| 15:15 | kados | maybe just for 2.2.6 ... /me isn't sure |
| 15:15 | toins | currently a ".htaccess" is used to redirect when an error occured |
| 15:15 | chris | ahh |
| 15:15 | kados | ahh, so you have to have that enabled in apache chris |
| 15:15 | chris | yeah |
| 15:16 | kados | IIRC it's not by default in debian |
| 15:16 | chris | might be better to do the redirect in the koha-httpd.conf |
| 15:16 | thd | Is there no way to add an additional blocked for kados reasons 1 and 2 as options |
| 15:16 | ? | |
| 15:16 | kados | so how can we resolve this difference of opinion for the official definition of a blocker bug? |
| 15:16 | I think we all agree that 'blocker' means 'can't do a release until it's fixed', right? | |
| 15:16 | chris | yes |
| 15:16 | thd | kados: can we provide multiple types of blocking bugs in bugzilla? |
| 15:16 | paul | yes |
| 15:17 | kados | thd: that's not quite the issue here ... it's more that paul and I disagree over what should 'bock' a release |
| 15:17 | chris | i think if something is known to 500 error |
| 15:17 | kados | 'block' even |
| 15:17 | chris | but if it can be done another way |
| 15:17 | then the link to the 500 error page should be removed | |
| 15:18 | owen | Unless paul (or someone) can provide an example of an acceptable 500 error, I'm inclined to agree that any 500 error is a blocker. |
| 15:18 | chris | so that you can only do it the other way |
| 15:18 | does that sound reasonable? | |
| 15:18 | kados | same with 404 errors I assume |
| 15:18 | chris | yes |
| 15:19 | if we know it doesnt work .. why point people at it | |
| 15:19 | tumer | what is an aceptable 500 error as owen says? |
| 15:19 | kados | chris: sounds good to me |
| 15:19 | tumer | 404 or 500 is "blocker" right? |
| 15:19 | kados | tumer: that's what we're arguing about :-) |
| 15:19 | paul | for example, something that is usually reached from somewhere, but can be reached from somewhere else. |
| 15:20 | example (existing in 2.2.4 iirc) | |
| 15:20 | modifying a patron. | |
| 15:20 | chris | 404 is easy, tahts always a blocker |
| 15:20 | paul | you usually do that from members => search => view detail => modify |
| 15:20 | tumer | if you know it than correct it, if nobody noticed than its pririty bug when reported |
| 15:20 | paul | you could do it from : |
| 15:20 | circulation => edit member | |
| 15:21 | BUT it was broken in 2.2.4 | |
| 15:21 | tumer | priority i mean |
| 15:21 | paul | (not a 404, but something that did not work) |
| 15:21 | thus you could do : | |
| 15:21 | circulation => view member => edit | |
| 15:21 | just 1 more clic | |
| 15:21 | kados | does anyone agree with paul that the example he cited above is not a blocker? |
| 15:21 | paul | not blocking for me, blocking for kados |
| 15:21 | owen | The thing about blockers...they're only blockers if you know about them |
| 15:22 | tumer | not blocking for programmers blocking for users |
| 15:22 | owen | If we had known about that bug, I would have considered it a blocker. |
| 15:22 | paul | but it's NOT blocking users. They have 2 workaround, one of them having just 1 more clic ! |
| 15:22 | owen | True... |
| 15:22 | tumer | yes but they do not know that |
| 15:22 | paul | I agree it's stupid, silly, and marketing unproductive. |
| 15:22 | tumer | and its frustating |
| 15:22 | paul | but it's not blocking |
| 15:22 | kados | it's about perception of the software |
| 15:22 | chris | thats not a blocker if you remove the broken way |
| 15:23 | owen | I remember seeing a good definition of the bug categories a while back, I wish I could remember where I saw it |
| 15:23 | kados | it blocks the user from feeling like Koha is stable |
| 15:23 | paul | in this case, it's easier to fix it, in CVS. but releasing just for this is using a rocket bomb to kill a fly (imho) |
| 15:24 | tumer | paul: if you know the bug why leave it? If you dont its not a blocjer until reported |
| 15:24 | paul | however, I 100% agree, i maybe rock as developper, but I suck as vendor... |
| 15:24 | it's not a matter of leaving it, it's a matter of official releasing. | |
| 15:24 | owen | What do you know... there's definitions on koha.org: http://www.koha.org/community/bugzilla.html |
| 15:25 | thd_ | kados: I think for paul it is actually a similar problem as you |
| 15:25 | chris | under those definitiions pauls above isnt actually a blocker |
| 15:26 | kados | up till now we've been doing releases every 4-6 months |
| 15:26 | chris | BUT |
| 15:26 | kados | if we were doing monthly releases we could do as defined on that page |
| 15:26 | chris | the difference is that bugs are quite different before and after a release |
| 15:26 | tumer | well at leat an official release should confirm taht at least one of the templates is working |
| 15:26 | thd_ | paul: do I understand correctly that your users expect a reasonably consistent release schedule |
| 15:26 | ? | |
| 15:26 | paul | having a monthly release is too much for most libraries. |
| 15:26 | chris | i think the confusion is, there are 2 different types of bugs |
| 15:27 | 1/ Bugs reported leading up to a release | |
| 15:27 | 2/ Bugs reported just after a release | |
| 15:27 | kados | yep |
| 15:27 | chris | pauls example above is a blocker in category 1 |
| 15:27 | its not in category 2 | |
| 15:27 | paul | chris: ++ |
| 15:27 | chris | ie as he said, we wouldnt do a release just to fix that |
| 15:28 | paul | maybe we could have a wiki page to point every bug we know and that will be fixed in next release ? |
| 15:28 | thd_ | chris:what is the difference for those 2 types of bugs? |
| 15:28 | tumer | together with workorounds |
| 15:28 | paul | (but not in the next days) |
| 15:28 | russ | paul: cant you make a release in bugzilla and use a bugzilla report? |
| 15:29 | paul | bugzilla is not considered as very friendly by most librarians. |
| 15:29 | owen | Have fun everyone, I'll catch up in the logs |
| 15:29 | chris | any bugs that are 500 or 404 errors leading up to a release are blockers and should be fixed before the release |
| 15:29 | paul | but a tinyurl bugzilla could be enough |
| 15:29 | tumer | chris++ |
| 15:30 | thd_ | chris: how do before and after release bugs differ qualitatively? |
| 15:30 | kados | I think it would make sense to do a release with no known blocker bugs |
| 15:30 | chris | yes |
| 15:30 | kados | then, maybe a month or two later, do another release |
| 15:31 | with nothing but bugfixes | |
| 15:31 | (maybe language translations too) | |
| 15:31 | chris | yes |
| 15:31 | tumer | not arelease but may be just an update of debugged |
| 15:32 | kados | tumer: do you mean a patch? |
| 15:32 | tumer | yes |
| 15:32 | toins | tumer: so a 2.2.6.0 then a 2.2.6.1 ? |
| 15:33 | tumer | yes |
| 15:33 | kados | we've never done patches before |
| 15:33 | I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users | |
| 15:33 | tumer | and a tar containing only the debugged bits |
| 15:33 | paul | I agree. |
| 15:33 | thd | chris: did you mean that user reported bugs are often qualitatively different to bugs already known to developers? |
| 15:34 | kados | paul: what do you agree with? |
| 15:34 | tumer | any new release is quite nerve recking when installing a patch may not be |
| 15:34 | chris | no i meant that a 404 error reported after a release, with 2 workarounds isnt enough to trigger another immediate release .. but it certainly should be fixed before the next release .. if it was discovered before the release, it would block it |
| 15:34 | kados | chris: I agree |
| 15:34 | paul | I agree with : "I've a feeling they're too hard to apply for users" |
| 15:35 | kados | paul: ok |
| 15:35 | paul: do you agree with chris? | |
| 15:35 | paul | yes, 100% |
| 15:35 | kados | ok, great ... so we all agree :-) |
| 15:35 | tumer | well i am not sure about patches feeling |
| 15:35 | paul | good news ! |
| 15:35 | thd | patches are only difficult to apply if they are difficult to apply |
| 15:36 | kados | tumer: I like the patches idea, maybe we can explore it in the future |
| 15:36 | chris | we could release patches, and see |
| 15:36 | paul | so we could go to head/rel_3_0/dev_week questions ? |
| 15:36 | kados | sure |
| 15:36 | paul | hdl is not here ? |
| 15:36 | kados | I can start |
| 15:36 | as you all know, I've been working on dev_week quite a lot, mainly with searching | |
| 15:37 | there is a new search API which is not entirely committed but is much simpler than the old zebra one | |
| 15:37 | and more completely uses CCL as a query language | |
| 15:38 | it also takes many things out of the template to allow a librarian to customize how a search looks and works | |
| 15:38 | only one thing prevents me from committing | |
| 15:38 | a way to translate the labels of search points into other languages | |
| 15:38 | thd | kados: do you plan to integrate the improved features into your old Zebra search as well? |
| 15:38 | tumer | ? |
| 15:39 | kados | so I am eager for ideas for how to do that |
| 15:39 | thd: no | |
| 15:39 | tumer | kados what translation |
| 15:39 | kados | so for example, take a look at zoomopac.liblime.com |
| 15:39 | thd | kados: you had a fine idea during dev_week |
| 15:39 | paul | maybe you could commit as it is & looking in the code will give us some ideas |
| 15:39 | kados | click on advanced search |
| 15:40 | right now all of the search options are hard-coded as hash references | |
| 15:40 | easy to convert to database table entries | |
| 15:40 | but I wanted to agree on a data structure before doing that | |
| 15:41 | thd | kados: so it would be trivial to variablise them all |
| 15:41 | tumer | kados:i am loosing you |
| 15:41 | what is hard coded | |
| 15:42 | kados | for instance |
| 15:42 | in the advanced search | |
| 15:42 | there is: | |
| 15:42 | Keyword, Author, Author Phrase, etc. | |
| 15:42 | chris | first off, let me say that looks really good |
| 15:43 | kados | all of those options are hardcoded as references to arrays of hashes and such so that in the template you don't have any of the variables stored |
| 15:43 | chris | the only problem the libraries i work with are going to have with it is |
| 15:44 | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/se[…]=it&do=Search&r=1 | |
| 15:44 | tumer | kados:i have a similar one in head but those are just labels read from a user defined table |
| 15:44 | so they can be in any language | |
| 15:44 | kados | tumer: yes, but that approach doesn't work with multiple language opacs |
| 15:44 | chris | is the repeating biblios |
| 15:45 | thd | chris: the inspirational model has been very well play tested but kados has some improvements you cannot guess until you perform a search using words often considered stop words on some systems |
| 15:45 | kados | tumer: because when you switch languages the strings aren't translated |
| 15:45 | tumer | yes but marc_labels are also teh same |
| 15:45 | chris | apart from that (and unfortunately thats a big thing for them) it rocks |
| 15:45 | kados | chris: yes, but 2.4 won't have that ability |
| 15:45 | chris | yep |
| 15:45 | kados | chris: it's too MARC_centric |
| 15:46 | tumer: exactly | |
| 15:46 | chris | will be good for our libraries that only have 1 or 2 copies of each thing... they wont notice |
| 15:46 | but the other ones will have to wait for 3.0 or 3.2 | |
| 15:46 | kados | so we need a way to translate labels stored in the database |
| 15:46 | tumer | we have multi lingual opac which only returns english labels for MARC details pages same problem? |
| 15:47 | kados | so the problem is duplicated in the MARC details page already |
| 15:47 | as tumer points out | |
| 15:47 | does anyone have suggestions for how to solve this problem | |
| 15:47 | paul | i'm afraid I don't |
| 15:47 | but I encourage you to commit what is already done | |
| 15:47 | because seing the code, a new idea could emerge | |
| 15:47 | thd | kados: you can variablise anything as you pointed out during devel week |
| 15:48 | kados | ok, I will commit what I have |
| 15:48 | paul | thd : we have 2 problems here : |
| 15:48 | - complexity for the library | |
| 15:48 | kados | anyone have any additional things to say about dev_week? |
| 15:48 | paul | - CPU consumming |
| 15:48 | yes, me !!! | |
| 15:48 | what is the status of this version ? | |
| 15:48 | kados | go ahead paul |
| 15:48 | paul | would you say it's stable ? |
| 15:49 | kados | nearly |
| 15:49 | NPL goes live first week in October | |
| 15:49 | paul | because the main question I have is : we have 3 branches atm (+2.2) |
| 15:49 | toins | and it will be a 2.4 release ? |
| 15:49 | kados | and two other libraries in November |
| 15:49 | I anticipate official release to be in November | |
| 15:49 | paul | and we all agree we miss some ressources. |
| 15:49 | thd | paul: the first is satisfied with a good set of language dependent defaults with some differing options |
| 15:50 | paul | so we really need to reach a 1 branch only to join our strenghtes. |
| 15:50 | kados | paul: I agree, but we can't agree on what features to pursue as a group! |
| 15:50 | paul: so it's a challenge | |
| 15:50 | thd | paul: if the solution to the first is good enough then you need a faster or load balancing server |
| 15:50 | paul | if you think it's stable, then, I'll ask toins to port everything to rel_3_0. |
| 15:51 | kados | but rel_3_0 is completely different! |
| 15:51 | paul | where ? |
| 15:51 | kados | where not? :-) |
| 15:51 | paul | in what is it completly different ? |
| 15:51 | kados | it's the former head with all the new features |
| 15:51 | new db structure | |
| 15:51 | templates | |
| 15:52 | code cleanup | |
| 15:52 | paul | and you're is mostly 2.2 + zebra |
| 15:52 | kados | toins has spent a long time making this very different from dev_week which is branched from rel_2_2 |
| 15:52 | paul | right ? |
| 15:52 | kados | right |
| 15:52 | not mostly | |
| 15:52 | only | |
| 15:52 | paul | ok, so i'll ask toins to port zebra things to rel_3_0 |
| 15:53 | do you think it's impossible/complex/quite complex/quite easy/easy ? | |
| 15:53 | kados | for Biblio stuff it's nearly impossible |
| 15:53 | it will need to be re-written IMO | |
| 15:53 | for search, should be quite simple | |
| 15:54 | tumer | it should not be that difficult |
| 15:54 | thd | kados: what do you mean by Biblio stuff? |
| 15:54 | kados | thd: everything in Biblio.pm |
| 15:54 | paul | but if we do a copy/paste, won't it work N |
| 15:54 | ? | |
| 15:55 | do you mean the API has been so deeply modified ? | |
| 15:55 | tumer | the dev_week biblio could almost work as it is with rel_3 |
| 15:55 | toins | currently Biblio.pm from dev_week & from rel_3_0 are quite the same |
| 15:55 | tumer: yes | |
| 15:56 | tumer | so rel_3 can start working with zebra withminor changes |
| 15:56 | paul | it already works, toins is playing with it daily ! |
| 15:56 | toins | tumer: rel_3_0 still work with zebra |
| 15:56 | tumer | so no problem than |
| 15:57 | paul | kados ? your opinion ? |
| 15:57 | toins | i haven't test authorities.. just searching the catalogue from opac or librarian interface |
| 15:57 | paul | are we missing something ? |
| 15:58 | tumer | kados:?? |
| 15:59 | paul | to summarize rel_3_0 |
| 15:59 | - it contains everything from rel_2_2, toins takes care of it | |
| 15:59 | - it contains all head enhancements (the one from SAN-OP, and some from me) | |
| 15:59 | toins | except today commit |
| 15:59 | kados | ok, I"m back |
| 16:00 | paul | - it is synch'ed with dev_week by toins |
| 16:00 | toins | except the code not commit by SAN ... |
| 16:00 | paul | my idea/goal being to reach a stable branch asap, for SAN-OP |
| 16:00 | so, kados, are we missing something ? | |
| 16:01 | it is VERY important, because SAN will decide tomorrow wether they go to Koha on january 1st or not. | |
| 16:01 | thd | kados: what had prompted you to think the differences in Biblio.pm between 2.4 and 3.0 are 'impossible'? |
| 16:01 | paul | so I really need to have a clear view of what has to be done |
| 16:02 | tumer | by head i think paul means rel_3 |
| 16:02 | kados | the problem we're facing is that only tumer and I understand how to use zebra |
| 16:03 | and I'm not a programmer :-) | |
| 16:03 | paul | I begin to understand it too, & hdl & toins too. |
| 16:03 | although i'm still not a friend of zebra | |
| 16:04 | kados | I can't evaluate whether what we've got will work for SAN |
| 16:04 | paul | (& won't probably never become a lover ;-) ) |
| 16:04 | why wouldn't it ? | |
| 16:04 | kados | I don't know :-) |
| 16:04 | chris | SAN-OP have been working mainly in the members side |
| 16:04 | kados | there is one big issue to resolve |
| 16:04 | chris | and fines/overdues etc |
| 16:05 | kados | how to keep biblioitems.marc, items, and zebra index in synch |
| 16:05 | chris | i dont think there will be conflict between their work and the catalogue/search stuff |
| 16:05 | thd | kados: but you must have had some thought as a basis for suggesting 'impossible' |
| 16:05 | paul | chris is right here. |
| 16:05 | kados | I've got a script that runs every 5 minutes and I think that works well but hasn't been tested in a production environment |
| 16:05 | tumer | kados:i have it in production works smoothly |
| 16:06 | kados | tumer: I have a different script I think :-) |
| 16:06 | tumer: what's your's? | |
| 16:06 | tumer | yes i know, mine is better:) |
| 16:06 | kados | tumer: also, you aren't doing any circ, right? |
| 16:06 | NPL does a huge amount or circ | |
| 16:06 | s/or/of/ | |
| 16:06 | tumer | i do everything in marc |
| 16:06 | my circ is faster than ever | |
| 16:07 | kados | at one point several months ago I attempted to merge rel_3_0 (then head) and dev_week |
| 16:07 | and I found it was impossible for me | |
| 16:08 | tumer | i have done that |
| 16:08 | kados | but if someone else can do this, more power to them |
| 16:08 | thd | paul: does SAN have to decide tomorrow about extending its legacy ILS contract? |
| 16:08 | tumer | head is in sync except acquisitions |
| 16:09 | paul | yes & no thd. that's not the biggest problem, even if that's one. they need to organize teaching, plann the deployment, buy a server... |
| 16:10 | chris | the question then becomes |
| 16:10 | do we try to sync dev_week to rel_3_0 now | |
| 16:11 | or do we wait for kados to commit a few more things? | |
| 16:11 | by we i meant not me :) | |
| 16:11 | kados | hehe |
| 16:11 | paul | :) |
| 16:11 | kados | well I need to commit the search stuff for sure |
| 16:11 | paul | toins already synch. |
| 16:11 | tumer | i think kados will keep on committing whenever we sync |
| 16:11 | paul | on a "daily" basis. |
| 16:11 | thd | I have an idea for the language problem |
| 16:11 | chris | ohh cool |
| 16:11 | in that case, its all good then | |
| 16:11 | paul | so, i'm waiting imptiently for what is still missing ;-) |
| 16:12 | kados | ok, I"ll commit asap |
| 16:12 | chris | if ppl keeping commiting to dev_week, and toins keeps syncing |
| 16:12 | then rel_3_0 will be dev_week plus all of san-ops improvements | |
| 16:12 | tumer | so why release 2.4 and not 3? |
| 16:12 | paul | that was my next question ;-) |
| 16:13 | thd | exactly |
| 16:13 | paul | what time line for which version ? |
| 16:13 | chris | id like an installable version of either :-) |
| 16:13 | thats the next big thing | |
| 16:13 | paul | I already said I won't release 2.4 here for frenchies. |
| 16:14 | but libraries are waiting for 3.0 ! | |
| 16:14 | kados | paying libraries? |
| 16:14 | tumer | if we have clean code working than we should use it! |
| 16:14 | paul | and 2.4 is just 2.2+zebra, which is not interesting small libraries, that are happy with sql only |
| 16:15 | chris | someone needs to work on making the installer work |
| 16:15 | before we can release anything | |
| 16:15 | tumer | a proper updater as well |
| 16:15 | paul | one step after the other chris... |
| 16:15 | thd | chris: is slef not working on that? |
| 16:15 | paul | 1st have a stable version that can be installed by developers. |
| 16:15 | chris | no |
| 16:16 | kados | my problem is that I've exausted all of my resources just getting to where we are ... I can't focus on development for the rest of the year, I need to do some sales, etc. |
| 16:16 | paul | 2nd build a strong installer to have an easy installation. |
| 16:16 | I have some resources (mainly toins + hdl) | |
| 16:16 | chris | ok, well imo we should be working towards a 3.0 release |
| 16:17 | paul | (hdl is tired, he did some hard stuf for some hard clients, so is happy to code again & toins is just here to code) |
| 16:17 | (i take care of incomes for us ;-) ) | |
| 16:17 | chris | i wasnt meaning for kados to work on it |
| 16:17 | kados | :-) |
| 16:17 | chris | he needs to get dev_week out to some clients |
| 16:17 | kados | yep |
| 16:17 | chris | but i dont think we need to spend time effort on packaging a releas of it |
| 16:17 | thd | kados: do you mean that if you had sponsorship you could work more hours? |
| 16:17 | chris | as long as the fixes/improvements we make |
| 16:18 | kados | thd: no, but I might be able to afford to hire another programmer |
| 16:18 | chris | in dev_week, get sync'ed to rel_3_0 |
| 16:18 | kados | chris: that's fine with me |
| 16:18 | chris | so lets work on getting rel_3_0 installable and stable for developers |
| 16:19 | and not make a 2.4.x release which we will have to try and maintain | |
| 16:19 | tumer | why not get dev_week with NPL templates and for USA only without translations etc |
| 16:19 | kados | that makes sense |
| 16:19 | tumer: because I already have soe translations of it :-) | |
| 16:19 | paul | tumer: that's what is about to happend in fact ! |
| 16:19 | thd | kados: so would that mean that NPL would have a private fork? |
| 16:19 | chris | no |
| 16:19 | kados | thd: no, but LibLime has one |
| 16:19 | paul | thd : why ? |
| 16:19 | kados | so it seems |
| 16:20 | paul | what do you call a "private fork" ? |
| 16:20 | chris | yeah its not private |
| 16:20 | kados | it's not really private |
| 16:20 | paul | it's not really private |
| 16:20 | thd | paul: because kados has been developing 2.4 for NPL |
| 16:20 | kados | hehe |
| 16:20 | chris | :) |
| 16:20 | paul | :) |
| 16:20 | it's just supported by liblime only. | |
| 16:20 | kados | originally I did not imagine tumer and I would be the only one's working on zebra |
| 16:20 | chris | but we all get the benefit from it |
| 16:20 | kados | in fact, I didn't even know tumer and I am not a programmer :-) |
| 16:21 | paul | of course, if a french library comes & say "ok, i want this version, and have 1 000 000 EUR for this", then i'll use it in france (& refund some % to LibLime ;-) ) |
| 16:21 | kados | hehe |
| 16:21 | paul | and you didn't imagine that zebra will be such a pain either ! |
| 16:21 | kados | I think I didn't anticipate paul and hdl and chris being too busy to work on 3.0 |
| 16:21 | tumer | they will say 1 000 000 $ not EUR |
| 16:22 | kados | I assumed everyone would work on it (meaning zebra) |
| 16:22 | chris | the reality of having to eat, means we have to do what our clients ask for |
| 16:22 | kados | yep, it's unfortunate but true |
| 16:22 | paul | chris is our "old wisdom man" it seems... |
| 16:22 | chris | but the good thing, is that we still get to share those with others |
| 16:22 | thd | kados: even I am eager to do something with XML Zebra |
| 16:23 | kados | hehe |
| 16:23 | chris | lol paul |
| 16:23 | kados | so now that Zebra 2.0 has been released I can see that XML + XSLT is very interesting for Koha |
| 16:23 | thd | s/XML/XPath indexing/ |
| 16:23 | chris | yes im very interested in that too |
| 16:23 | kados | and I think probably after LibLime sells some dev_week stuff we're going to focus on that |
| 16:24 | chris | ok, so to summarise |
| 16:24 | paul | me too, but once again, i'm not sure to be able to work on this since a "long" time |
| 16:24 | chris | liblime will work on dev_week ... with katipo doing some bugfixing (i have a couple of clients in mind for this version) |
| 16:25 | in parallel, rel_3_0 will be kept up to sync, and beaten into a releasable form | |
| 16:25 | does that sound right? | |
| 16:25 | kados | yep |
| 16:25 | thd | I have had a thought about language issues |
| 16:26 | kados | thd: can it wait a minute? |
| 16:26 | paul | yep |
| 16:26 | thd | one could simply run a script to create differing language versions of hard coded variables |
| 16:27 | kados | thd: that won't work for multi-language OPACs |
| 16:27 | thd: where the user switches back and forth between languages | |
| 16:27 | paul | (most of my libraries have at least french & english active) |
| 16:27 | so, it seems we are done with rel_3 & dev_week questions ! | |
| 16:27 | kados | yep :-) |
| 16:28 | paul | some minuts to spend for tumer work ? |
| 16:28 | kados | yep, I do |
| 16:28 | thd | kados: I meant to say that you would need a namespace for the different files for multilingual use |
| 16:28 | chris | yep |
| 16:28 | paul | I'm curious to know if it will be possible & how to move from dev_week/rel_3 to head |
| 16:28 | (migrate the database I mean) | |
| 16:29 | tumer | well head is in production with us so yes it will be possible |
| 16:29 | chris | :-) |
| 16:29 | paul | because tumer is playing a lot & greatly it seems, but we must remember we will have to migrate 2.2 &2.4 & 3.0 libraries ! |
| 16:29 | kados | just to get a sense of what is involved in migration |
| 16:29 | thd | paul: only 2.2 is real trouble |
| 16:29 | paul | that's my question 2 |
| 16:29 | kados | migrating NPL takes about 40 hours |
| 16:30 | chris | what we need |
| 16:30 | kados | the migrate script is a shell script that calls many other scripts |
| 16:30 | it's a nightmare :-) | |
| 16:30 | tumer | so from where HEAd should migrate from? |
| 16:30 | chris | is a fast computer, with a big ramdisk |
| 16:30 | thd | kados: do you commit your nightmares? |
| 16:30 | tumer | from Dev_week or earlier |
| 16:30 | chris | that everyone can use for migrations ;) |
| 16:30 | kados | hehe |
| 16:31 | paul | chris : hehe... |
| 16:31 | tumer : 2.2 -> 2.4/3.0 migration is possible. kados & us already know how to do | |
| 16:31 | (even if it's quite a pain) | |
| 16:31 | tumer | migration from dev_week to head should not tkae more than 2 hrs even less |
| 16:32 | paul | but with your new biblio structure, how can it be possible to automatize all of this ? |
| 16:32 | chris | i have some recent experience optimising import code |
| 16:32 | tumer | once you get the old marcs out of old db it can be automized |
| 16:32 | thd | paul: you just divide and replicate the items into separate records |
| 16:33 | chris | so i might be able to speed it up some, but not a huge amount i wouldnt imagine |
| 16:33 | thd | s/replicate/populate/ |
| 16:33 | kados | chris: the longest time spent on NPL's migration is fixing the MARC records from 2.2.5 |
| 16:33 | chris | yeah i can imagine |
| 16:33 | tumer | this is what i plan with head: |
| 16:34 | currently i am trying to keep it in sync with rel_3 | |
| 16:34 | chris | cool |
| 16:34 | tumer | by the end of this month it should be all finished and committed |
| 16:34 | after that i cannot keep trying to synchh it | |
| 16:35 | i am also debugging it very fast as it it in use | |
| 16:35 | dewey | okay, tumer. |
| 16:35 | tumer | so you decide what we do with it |
| 16:35 | thd | after that we can all work on 3.4 |
| 16:35 | tumer | it contains lots of bug remmovede that you have in rel_2 and rel_34 |
| 16:35 | paul_2 | stupid provider... |
| 16:36 | tumer | addbiblio is now better handling of XML |
| 16:36 | authorities works | |
| 16:37 | circulation is faster | |
| 16:37 | and all proper UTF-8 | |
| 16:37 | chris | one question tumer |
| 16:38 | can it, or will it be able to group 'like' records in the search results? | |
| 16:38 | thd | chris: what do you mean by like records? |
| 16:38 | chris | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/se[…]=it&do=Search&r=1 |
| 16:39 | tumer | it works very similar to dev_week |
| 16:39 | except everything is xml | |
| 16:39 | chris | right |
| 16:40 | tumer | so any of kados's search engines will sit on top of it |
| 16:40 | chris | im sure we can figure something out about that |
| 16:40 | thd | chris: anything which functions in Zebra should work |
| 16:40 | chris | ideally id like those first 3 results (the it's one) to all be on one line |
| 16:40 | not 3 lines | |
| 16:40 | kados | zebra won't be able to do this natively using a standard MARC format |
| 16:41 | chris | yeah |
| 16:41 | kados | the only way to do it is to create an abstract format that contains MARC (and other) records |
| 16:41 | thd | chris: I am formulating a proposal for that for 3.4 |
| 16:41 | tumer | that looks like some perl coding rather than zebra to me |
| 16:41 | chris | yeah |
| 16:42 | just checking | |
| 16:42 | kados | it's mainly definitions |
| 16:42 | chris | im sure i can do something to make it look like its grouping |
| 16:42 | but was gonna make sure i wasnt doing it needlessly if tumer had a solution | |
| 16:42 | kados | it's the problem we've had from the beginning |
| 16:42 | paul_2 | almost midnight in France (& 2AM in cyprus...) |
| 16:42 | kados | how can HLT and NPL both be happy :-) |
| 16:42 | thd | chris: my Idea is to extent FRBR to encompass the trans-adaptation conception of works in the original Koha record design |
| 16:43 | kados | FRBR is too MARC-centric I think |
| 16:43 | chris | cos thats a 'blocker' for not just hlt ... but any library that has gone to koha |
| 16:43 | thats one of the things they hated about their old system | |
| 16:43 | s | |
| 16:43 | kados | yep |
| 16:43 | and it's what a lot of libraries hate | |
| 16:44 | chris | was that the patrons got confused by the results |
| 16:44 | kados | the single biggest problem with MARC IMO |
| 16:44 | chris | yes |
| 16:44 | paul_2 | can we end the meeting ? |
| 16:44 | thd | chris: you can hide the record complexity and still have it embedded underneath |
| 16:44 | chris | yep paul |
| 16:44 | kados | paul: yep |
| 16:44 | paul | a last question to chris : |
| 16:44 | tumer | yes |
| 16:44 | paul | how is going your wife ? |
| 16:45 | chris | i dont care about complexity, i just dont want 17 pages of results, when it can fit on 2 :-) |
| 16:45 | thd | chris: we can fit your results on one line if you want :) |
| 16:45 | chris | http://www.bigballofwax.co.nz/[…]/files/crayon.jpg |
| 16:46 | paul: thats for you | |
| 16:46 | paul | I won't post my wife picture, but... |
| 16:46 | ... my family will have a 4th baby at the end of february ;-) | |
| 16:46 | kados | wow, so soon! |
| 16:46 | paul | that's my last announce for today ! |
| 16:46 | alaurin | congratulations |
| 16:46 | chris | congrats paul |
| 16:46 | tumer | pauls been busy:) |
| 16:46 | paul | the question being will it be a 4th boy or a 1st girl? |
| 16:47 | answer in october (6th iirc) | |
| 16:47 | kados | hehe |
| 16:47 | tumer | it will be head! |
| 16:48 | btoumi | congratulations |
| 16:49 | paul | ok, bye bye & have a good day/evening/night depending on where you are located ! |
| 16:49 | thd | paul chris: at least your new children will be born into a world with Koha |
| 16:49 | paul | btoumi: & alaurin => see you tomorrow morning. |
| 16:49 | btoumi | yep paul: |
| 16:49 | paul | toins : same note, but at 8:15 ;-) |
| 16:50 | toins | paul_bed: ok |
| 16:50 | thd | a much friendlier world than the one I was born into when you had too look at some massively large set of books to find out what other libraries held |
| 16:51 | toins | bye all !!!!!!!!! |
| 16:52 | thd | chris: with a trans-adaptation FRBR meta-record you could have the film, the novel, and the play all as a single result if you wanted |
| 16:52 | chris: there would still be individual MARC records underneath | |
| 16:54 | chris: that was part of your original conception for Koha was it not? | |
| 16:54 | chris | yes |
| 16:54 | tumer | goodnight all |
| 16:54 | chris | but id settle for the book under the same result :) |
| 16:54 | thd | chris: well I am going to make certain it gets implemented circa 3.4 |
| 16:55 | chris | righto |
| 16:55 | ill do a workaround for 3.0 etc | |
| 16:55 | thd | chris: I have discussed it with tumer and found that we were thinking on some similar lines |
| 16:56 | chris: this is only efficient for at least the 3.2 API | |
| 16:56 | chris: that uses XPath indexing | |
| 16:57 | chris: the dependency is Zebra 2.0 or greater | |
| 16:58 | chris: 3.0 uses an entirely different indexing method and does not provide for meta-records which can each hold individually indexed records | |
| 17:00 | chris: meta-records can hold any basic standard record relationship that some script can discover | |
| 17:01 | alaurin | bye everybody |
| 17:02 | thd | bye alaurin |
| 17:02 | btoumi | bye all |
| 17:02 | thd | goodbye btoumi |
| 17:03 | chris: what is the status or plan for NZ acquisitions in Koha 3.0 vs the acquisitions on which others have been working? | |
| 17:04 | chris | we put all our fixes in 3.0 |
| 17:04 | thd | chris: so everyone is working on the same thing? |
| 17:05 | chris: what you had described as NZ specific acquisitions during devel week sounded like all the things that any good acquisitions system for anywhere should have | |
| 17:06 | chris | yep, it should be all the same in 3.0 |
| 17:06 | basically they were just the stuff that got missed out in 2.0 .. and then werent fixed for 2.2 ... but all good for 3.0 | |
| 17:07 | thd | chris: did you have any idea for making zoomopac multilingual? |
| 17:07 | chris | havent had a real chance to think about it |
| 17:08 | thd | chris: is multilingualism important for NZ libraries? |
| 17:08 | chris | yes |
| 17:08 | kados | it's very important to me |
| 17:08 | chris | for public libraries |
| 17:08 | kados | yep |
| 17:09 | chris | there are 2 official languages in nz... it should be in least those 2 |
| 17:09 | but then also samoan, tongan, chinese would be good too | |
| 17:09 | thd | kados: I did not know that more than one was official |
| 17:10 | s/kados/chris/ | |
| 17:10 | chris | yep, was only one official language for a long time, maori |
| 17:10 | cos they never got round to making english official | |
| 17:10 | it was just the defacto | |
| 17:12 | thd | chris: the problem with templates, even where they work, is updating them |
| 17:13 | chris: many variables would require much CPU but multiple files in different namespaces generated by a script should avoid the updating problem | |
| 17:14 | chris | its more than that |
| 17:15 | templates give you a lot more freedom than simple translation | |
| 17:15 | but with freedom, means harder to keep up to date | |
| 17:15 | thd | yes: I do not see how to do without templates |
| 17:16 | chris | i think its just something we have to deal with, try to make it as easy as possible, but realise its always going to be a burden |
| 17:17 | thd | merely, that some language generation could be scripted and maybe that could be partly functional for templates |
| 17:17 | chris | ok i better get back to work, got a bunch of tickets open from a client that i need to close |
| 17:17 | thd | ok chris |
| 17:18 | kados: if you are stiff enough, I have a correction | |
| 17:48 | v \] ,............................................................................................................................................................ | |
| 17:49 | oops, I dropped the keyboard | |
| 17:49 | russ: are you there? | |
| 17:50 | russ | hi thd |
| 17:50 | thd | hello russ |
| 17:51 | russ: has anyone asked yet about logbot for #koha-fr? | |
| 17:51 | russ: I forgot to bring it up during the meeting | |
| 17:52 | russ:do you know about #koha-fr | |
| 17:52 | russ | no |
| 17:52 | thd | ? |
| 17:52 | russ | sounds like a question for the koha-devel list |
| 17:53 | thd | russ: people from SAN and some others are not comfortable communicating in French on a mostly English #koha IRC channel |
| 17:54 | they had been using a private channel but recently started using #koha-fr instead | |
| 17:56 | russ: well paul had said he would ask Katipo about adding logbot for that channel so that people like me with poor connectivity can follow the developments in French occasionally | |
| 17:56 | russ: but if paul has not asked you I will remind him | |
| 17:56 | russ | cool |
| 18:21 | thd | kados: are you locked out or locked in? |
| 20:25 | kados | thd: the problems with items not being saved properly persist |
| 20:27 | thd | kados: when is it created? |
| 20:27 | kados | I created a bibliographic entry for 6 + 1 Trait Writing: A Model That Worksusing the DVD, VHS framework. Then, when I added an item, it became |
| 20:27 | inaccessible. The auto-barcoding worked and the item was given a uniquebarcode number, but now I can?t edit or delete that item. Could I be using the | |
| 20:27 | framework incorrectly in some way? Is there a vital MARC field that Ishouldn?t be leaving blank or something? | |
| 20:27 | I am replicating this on the demo to test | |
| 20:28 | and changeframework isn't working for some reason | |
| 20:28 | arrg | |
| 20:29 | thd | kados: I have only seen frameworks not change when the frameworks had not finished installing |
| 20:29 | s/installing/importing | |
| 20:34 | kados | thd: I confirmed it happens in the demo too |
| 20:34 | so there's a hidden view | |
| 20:34 | hidden bug I mean | |
| 20:35 | thd | hidden bug? |
| 20:35 | kados:when do the frameworks not change? | |
| 20:55 | kados: what is required to reproduce the bug? | |
| 21:10 | kados | thd: create an item using the DVDs VHS framework |
| 21:12 | thd: if you then duplicate the record with the default framework the duplicate doesn't have the problem | |
| 21:13 | thd | kados:only the original record has the problem? |
| 21:15 | kados | but if you duplicate it with the DVDs, VHS framework the same problem happens |
| 21:15 | so it's a bug related to frameworks for sure | |
| 21:15 | thd | kados: you cannot create items with a framework |
| 21:16 | kados | thd: here are the steps to duplication: |
| 21:16 | 1. create a record using a framework other than default | |
| 21:16 | 2. create an item for that framework | |
| 21:16 | thd | kados: all items use the default framework |
| 21:16 | kados | (it will be an empty item, impossible to delete or edit) |
| 21:16 | 3. duplicate the record using the default framework | |
| 21:16 | 4. create an item for that duplicate | |
| 21:17 | it will be a normal item | |
| 21:17 | 5. duplicate ehe record using a non-default framework | |
| 21:17 | 6. create an item for that duplicate | |
| 21:17 | it will be an empty item, impossisble to delete or edit | |
| 21:18 | this is definitely a blocker bug! | |
| 21:18 | thd | sound extremely blocking :) |
| 21:28 | speedyfs | hello everyone |
| 21:32 | does anyone have a copy of PDF-API2-0.3r77.tar.gz | |
| 21:38 | ? | |
| 21:44 | mason | speedyfs: u need an old version, for the old barcodes stuff? |
| 21:46 | http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/A/AR/AREIBENS/ | |
| 21:47 | http://cpan.org.ua/authors/id/[…]PI2-0.3r77.tar.gz | |
| 21:48 | thd | kados: does your bad record have a items.itemnumber ID? |
| 21:49 | in the item that you cannot edit | |
| 21:49 | kados: my item has visible content and I cannot edit it | |
| 21:54 | kados | thd: yes, it has visible content |
| 21:54 | thd: some things are saved, others are not | |
| 21:54 | it's definitely to do with frameworks though | |
| 21:54 | speedyfs | yeah |
| 21:55 | sorry mason thanks | |
| 21:55 | kados | power just went out in half of Athens :-) |
| 21:55 | (the half my office is in :/) | |
| 21:55 | so I packed up and head to a local bar :-) | |
| 21:55 | mason | no probs :) |
| 21:56 | thd | kados: can you see lights on on one side of the street and off on the other? |
| 21:56 | kados | thd: yes :-) |
| 21:56 | thd: literally :-) | |
| 21:56 | the athens power companies are so laughable | |
| 21:57 | so first off I'm gonna file a bug | |
| 21:57 | then I'll test the default templates | |
| 21:58 | thd | kados: this was a problem before I changed the items labels? |
| 21:59 | s(/this )(was)/\2 \1/ | |
| 22:02 | kados | ok, bug filed |
| 22:02 | thd: I don't know | |
| 22:02 | thd: I think it's been a bug for a long time and noone noticed | |
| 22:02 | ok now I test default | |
| 22:04 | thd | kados: Afognak had many items with no bar code after they had edited them which could not be edited or deleted |
| 22:05 | I had assumed that their deleting barcodes was the problem | |
| 22:05 | kados | I confirm it happens in the default tempaltes too |
| 22:07 | shoot, this is a really big problem | |
| 22:08 | thd | kados: does it happen if you reload the standard default framework only |
| 22:08 | ? | |
| 22:08 | kados | thd: it only happens with non-default templates |
| 22:08 | thd: specifically, the ones you created as I have no other ones to test | |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: I thought that you said it happens with default also |
| 22:09 | kados | thd: it only happens with non-default templates |
| 22:09 | I'm 90% sure it's a code problem | |
| 22:09 | I'm gonna try testing in stock rel_2_2 now | |
| 22:10 | thd | kados: code meaning non-template code? |
| 22:10 | kados | yes |
| 22:10 | thd | kados: code meaning non-framework code? |
| 22:10 | kados | thd: yes |
| 22:11 | thd: it would not hurt to triple check the frameworks for some hidden problem though | |
| 22:11 | thd | kados: well we never found out about the UNIMARC only bugs paul spoke of earlier |
| 22:11 | kados | thd: true |
| 22:12 | thd | kados: if paul tested only default for MARC 21 he would have missed this as a MARC 21 issue |
| 22:12 | kados | yep |
| 22:14 | I confirmed it happens with stock rel_2_2 also | |
| 22:14 | sigh | |
| 22:14 | thd | kados:if you are confident that is not the framework then I can think of an excellent way to test |
| 22:14 | kados | thd: how? |
| 22:14 | thd | or confirm |
| 22:15 | kados: you could duplicate the default framework as an additional framework | |
| 22:16 | kados:if it happens with the duplicate of default but not default then you know it is how the code is treating default | |
| 22:17 | kados | thd: I confirmed that creating a new record with default works |
| 22:17 | now I'll duplicate one created with default and see if it happens | |
| 22:17 | thd | s/treating default/treating non-default/ |
| 22:18 | kados | ok, it still happens |
| 22:18 | basically any non-default framework triggers the problem for marc21 records | |
| 22:19 | and I don't see any strange errors either | |
| 22:20 | now I"ll test with unimarc | |
| 22:20 | thd | kados: you have your own UNIMARC install or the UNIMARC demo |
| 22:21 | ? | |
| 22:21 | kados | I have a UNIMARC install that paul sent me |
| 22:21 | speedyfs | mason: thanks a bunch |
| 22:21 | mason: the barcode reader works now | |
| 22:26 | kados | of course, it doesn't happen in unimarc :/ |
| 22:26 | damn it | |
| 22:26 | thd | ;) |
| 22:26 | kados | thd: so it's either your frameworks, or else something in the code |
| 22:27 | thd | kados:must be the frameworks if it does not happen in UNIMARC |
| 22:27 | kados | thd: must it? |
| 22:27 | thd: so what is the difference between your frameworks and the unimarc ones? | |
| 22:27 | thd | kados:why would it not happen in UNIMARC |
| 22:28 | kados | I've no idea :/ |
| 22:28 | thd | chiefly that I wrote them |
| 22:28 | kados | hehe |
| 22:28 | thd | or edited them |
| 22:28 | kados | it looks like the structure of the files are different ... paul's aren't commented at all and are mainly a bunch of insert statements |
| 22:29 | slightly different syntax than your's | |
| 22:29 | thd | kados:what is different about the syntax? |
| 22:29 | kados | INSERT INTO marc_subfield_structure (tagfield, tagsubfield, liblibrarian, libopac, repeatable, mandatory, kohafield, tab, authorised_value, authtypecode, value_builder, isurl, hidden, frameworkcode, seealso, link) VALUES ('090', '9', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 'Num?ro biblio (koha)', 0, 0, 'biblio.biblionumber', -1, '', '', '', NULL, NULL, '', NULL, NULL); |
| 22:30 | thd | kados:yes I had a discussion about that with paul before I committed them |
| 22:30 | kados | and? |
| 22:31 | thd | kados: there is no absolute need for the extra verbosity if you are newly creating the tables |
| 22:31 | kados | right |
| 22:32 | thd | kados: however, really stringent coding would require the most verbose form always so I asked paul |
| 22:33 | kados: less verbosity makes it easier to spot the important parts when editing | |
| 22:33 | kados | yep |
| 22:34 | thd: low priority request, remove all reference to ASMP | |
| 22:35 | power is back on, I'm headed back to my office | |
| 22:35 | brb | |
| 22:37 | thd | kados: ok I will make a test framework for the test I described earlier |
| 22:53 | kados | ok |
| 23:00 | thd: I just duplicated the default framework and am testing that | |
| 23:01 | thd: it seems the default framework is back to a very bloated version | |
| 23:01 | thd | kados: you added a framework name in all the correct places? |
| 23:01 | kados | thd: the unmanagable one we started with perhaps? |
| 23:01 | thd: I used the Intranet to create it | |
| 23:02 | wow, the default is really quite bloated | |
| 23:02 | thd | kados: oh yes that would be the easy way for that |
| 23:02 | kados | thd: it does not occur with a non-default framework |
| 23:03 | thd: it occurs only with your frameworks ;-) | |
| 23:03 | thd: I created a testing framework that is a copy of the default and adding items works fine | |
| 23:04 | so there must be something wrong with the asmp_frameworks | |
| 23:04 | thd | kados: the default framework has only a few extra subfields from a few months ago |
| 23:05 | kados | thd: I suspect the sql syntax is flawless |
| 23:05 | thd | kados: does this happen with every non-default ASMP framework |
| 23:05 | kados | I will test others to see |
| 23:06 | thd | kados: yes, we would have had an import error if the SQL was a problem |
| 23:06 | kados: did you use an underscore for your duplicate name? | |
| 23:06 | kados | it happens with BOOKS |
| 23:06 | thd: no | |
| 23:07 | thd: no underscore | |
| 23:07 | thd: I will test with an underscore | |
| 23:07 | thd | kados: was your name more than 4 characters? |
| 23:07 | kados | no |
| 23:07 | it was TEST | |
| 23:07 | thd | kados: I think that the template will restrict you to 4 characters |
| 23:07 | kados | thd: the template restricts to 4 characters |
| 23:08 | thd | kados: yes I increased the size of the columns |
| 23:09 | kados: that allowed for meaningful framework names and namespaces | |
| 23:12 | kados | thd: I have changed all the codes to 4 characters in the demo and I'm re-testing |
| 23:14 | thd: that must be it | |
| 23:14 | thd: it worked | |
| 23:14 | thd | kados: have you tried 4 characters including an underscore? |
| 23:14 | kados | thd: no |
| 23:15 | thd | kados: try that |
| 23:15 | kados | thd: I'm not inclined to since 4 characters gives us plenty |
| 23:15 | thd: I'm tired and just want a simple solution now :-) | |
| 23:15 | thd | kados: plenty for what? |
| 23:15 | kados | thd: plenty of possible codes |
| 23:15 | thd: way more than any koha install should have :-) | |
| 23:15 | thd | kados: yes plenty in an absolute sense but not for readability |
| 23:16 | kados | thd: I'd like to commit what I did |
| 23:16 | thd: I just changed the codes | |
| 23:16 | thd: and I removed reference to asmp | |
| 23:16 | thd: I'd also like to rename the file | |
| 23:17 | thd: I'd like to call it marc21_bib_frameworks.sql | |
| 23:17 | thd | kados: I have a name suggestion |
| 23:17 | kados | ok |
| 23:17 | thd | kados: your name suggestion |
| 23:18 | kados | ? |
| 23:18 | marc21_bib_frameworks.sql? | |
| 23:19 | thd | kados: marc21_simple_bib_frameworks.sql |
| 23:19 | kados | ok, I'll do that and commit |
| 23:19 | and delete the asmp one | |
| 23:19 | thd | kados: I do like readable names and I do not think that we found the problem |
| 23:21 | kados | thd: that's what the lables are for |
| 23:21 | thd: the whole point of a code is that it's short and can be easily indexed | |
| 23:21 | thd: if all the codes start with SIMPLE then mysql doesn't index them efficiently | |
| 23:21 | thd | kados: I am inclined to suspect the underscore or something else |
| 23:21 | kados | ok, I have committed |
| 23:21 | I will leave it to you to maintain, synch with other branches, etc. | |
| 23:22 | thd | kados: I did not think that index efficiency was a function of string length |
| 23:22 | kados | yes, it is |
| 23:23 | thd | kados: is the framework code even indexed? |
| 23:24 | kados | it has a key assigned to it I think |
| 23:24 | there's no point to having a code and a label if the code is as verbose as the label | |
| 23:24 | might as well just have a label to start with | |
| 23:24 | thd | kados: yes but that is not the same as indexing in MySQL, although, keys are certainly indexed |
| 23:26 | kados: it seems as if you are making an argument in favour of the byte economies of the original MARC design | |
| 23:26 | kados | I am :-) |
| 23:26 | thd | kados: instead of the nice human readable labels we can have in XML |
| 23:27 | kados:it is not as if I made the column a text field | |
| 23:28 | kados: I only made it VARCHAR (32) from (4) | |
| 23:28 | kados | thd: please change it back to 4 |
| 23:29 | thd | kados:and you know that no one can detect the microseconds lost in indexing the key for the framework :) |
| 23:29 | kados | yes I know |
| 23:29 | but lets keep things simple and not diverge needlessly from the project's existing conventions | |
| 23:29 | it causes headaches for me :-) | |
| 23:30 | thd | kados: that would mean that very little could have meaningful labels. |
| 23:31 | kados | thd: they don't need meaningful labels |
| 23:31 | thd | kados: I think it is the underscore |
| 23:31 | kados | thd: that's what the labels are for :-) |
| 23:31 | s/labels/codes/ in my original response | |
| 23:31 | thd | kados: you are not editing them in vim |
| 23:31 | kados | thd: yes I am :-) |
| 23:32 | BKS is just as meaningful as SIMPLE_BOOKS | |
| 23:32 | thd | kados: I mean staring at them for hours in vim till they do what they should :) |
| 23:32 | kados | :-) |
| 23:32 | well however you want to represent them while editing is fine by me | |
| 23:33 | but i think we should stick with the 4 character limit when we commit | |
| 23:33 | thd | kados: if all the code in Koha were that economical it would be unreadable |
| 23:33 | kados: I think the best solution is one framework that changes dynamically | |
| 23:34 | kados | I agree ... but that won't appear until 2.2.8 :-) |
| 23:34 | thd | kados: I thought that was a 3.4 feature |
| 23:34 | kados | yea ... |
| 23:35 | in 3.2 we could do it with xslt | |
| 23:35 | there's so much we could be doing if we had the resources | |
| 23:35 | it's frustrating | |
| 23:35 | anyway, I need to sleep now | |
| 23:35 | thd | kados: I am too tired to go to sleep |
| 23:36 | kados | :-) |
| 23:36 | ok, I'm gonna head out | |
| 23:36 | thanks for troubleshooting with me thd | |
| 23:36 | thd | kados: when you are awake I will explain something about what standard frameworks might be |
| 23:36 | kados | g'night #koha |
| 23:37 | thd | kados:you will see that 4 characters will be difficult to keep the frameworks straight because the letters would become arbitrary code assignments |
| 01:10 | Mordazy | hi all |
| 01:10 | anybody here using KOHA in a lib that has several branches? | |
| 01:30 | thd | Mordazy: many are |
| 01:30 | Mordazy | okay |
| 01:30 | one question: | |
| 01:30 | thd | Mordazy: did you have a question about branches? |
| 01:31 | Mordazy | on the koha mailing list? yes |
| 01:32 | thd | Mordazy: I do not understand your question if you have asked it yet |
| 01:32 | Mordazy | sorry, I thought you asked about question I posted to mailing list |
| 01:32 | I need to know if branches can for example return or issue items from each other? | |
| 01:33 | I mean, there are two branches, for example Adult Fiction and Multimedia | |
| 01:34 | thd | Mordazy: there is a branch transfer function |
| 01:35 | Mordazy | but I don`t want branches to mess in each other`s transactions |
| 01:35 | thd | Mordazy: I may be mistaken, but I believe any branch can charge out items |
| 01:35 | Mordazy | hmmm |
| 01:36 | thd | Mordazy: you can also add restrictions |
| 01:36 | Mordazy | o! tell me more. |
| 01:36 | thd | Mordazy: there are very detailed set of permissions for users including librarians |
| 01:37 | Mordazy | my lib has 6 branches, some in distant locations. I DON`T want staff from Adult Fiction to do ANYTHING but view with items or transactions from other branches |
| 01:37 | the same applying to any other branch | |
| 01:38 | thd | Mordazy: I do not administer a real library so I have not spent much time looking for where the options are |
| 01:38 | Mordazy: I believe that you can prevent that absolutely | |
| 01:39 | Mordazy | My Koha is not ready for use yet, and I need some quick answers... |
| 01:39 | thd | Mordazy: there are also mechanisms where one branch can transfer material to another branch |
| 01:40 | Mordazy | so it`s possible to restrict staff from a branch from issuing, returning (or modifying issues) items from other branches? |
| 01:40 | brb | |
| 01:51 | transfers bettween branches are not important now | |
| 01:51 | My biggest concern is how to make sure that staff from branch one can`t mess anything in transactions from branch two. For example: can staff from Adult Fiction branch borrow, return etc. items from Multimedia Branch? I hope they can`t by default, because there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult | |
| 01:55 | thd | Mordazy: staff cannot even circulate material by default |
| 01:56 | Mordazy | okay... |
| 01:57 | thd | Mordazy: you have to enable permissions specifically |
| 01:57 | Mordazy | but if they can circulate, are they restricted from issuing/returning/prolonging materials from other branches |
| 01:57 | ? | |
| 01:59 | thd | Mordazy: there seems to be no explicit permission restricting that in the members settings but that may be controlled by a combination of factors |
| 02:00 | Mordazy | exactly, no explicit permissions / restrictions |
| 02:00 | thd | Mordazy: unfortunately I actually know least of all about how Koha manage |
| 02:01 | Mordazy | the question is, whether the system denies such actions, or allows them |
| 02:01 | thd | s circulation |
| 02:01 | Mordazy | :( |
| 02:01 | piry :( | |
| 02:01 | pity | |
| 02:03 | thd | Mordazy: if it is not set implicitly by a combination of user and branch settings then you could easily hire someone familiar with Koha circulation to fix the code for that |
| 02:03 | osmoze | hello #koha |
| 02:03 | thd | hello osmoze |
| 02:03 | osmoze does you library have more than one branch? | |
| 02:04 | osmoze | yes |
| 02:04 | 3 branch | |
| 02:05 | thd | osmoze: do you know if there is an existing method to prevent the circulating librarian from circulating or renewing material from a different branch to the branch that librarian is associated |
| 02:05 | ? | |
| 02:06 | osmoze | i think no |
| 02:07 | thd | Mordazy: well there could be. I think it would be very easy to code actually |
| 02:07 | Mordazy | probably |
| 02:07 | but not for me, at least yet :( | |
| 02:09 | thd | Mordazy: you should communicate with some one on this list ... |
| 02:09 | http://www.koha.org/support/pay.html | |
| 02:09 | Mordazy | the problem is, that the management of my lib wants a system that works OUR way right out the box |
| 02:10 | thd | Mordazy: very little good software would be expected to do that |
| 02:10 | Mordazy | yeah |
| 02:10 | but actually I demand only one thing | |
| 02:11 | thd | Mordazy: the database has a place to store the home branch for each user including librarians |
| 02:11 | Mordazy | that branches` staff don`t go in each other`s way |
| 02:12 | brb, will check something with our current ILS | |
| 02:13 | thd | Mordazy: so you would only need the system to check the librarian branch affiliation when checking for circulation permission |
| 02:16 | Mordazy | I guess my question was not precise |
| 02:16 | actually I don`t care about staff, I care about COMPUTERS in branches | |
| 02:17 | I know that computer registers itself by a cookie, which branch it belongs to | |
| 02:19 | so I actually should have asked if computer in Adult Fiction branch can circulate items from Multimedia, since it`s registered in Adult Fiction | |
| 02:20 | thd | Mordazy: well that could certainly be another method of restriction and maybe that one works by default even where there maybe no restriction for the librarian with circulation privileges |
| 02:24 | good morning hdl | |
| 02:25 | osmoze | lo hdl |
| 02:25 | hdl | hi thd |
| 02:26 | thd | hdl: can computers at one branch be used to circulate material not present at that branch? |
| 02:26 | hdl | unless IndependantBranches is set, yes. |
| 02:27 | thd | hdl: and if independent branches are set then not? |
| 02:27 | hdl | yes. |
| 02:27 | thd | Mordazy: there is your answer |
| 02:27 | hdl | (not based on computers though, but on librarian branch) |
| 02:28 | thd | hdl: ok that was my suggestion for a method |
| 02:30 | hdl: a couple of days ago kados suspected he found code in addbiblio.pl that could lead to data loss if independent branches was set. | |
| 02:31 | hdl: it was not obvious to me but he has familiarity with the code | |
| 02:32 | hdl | thd: Must have been corrected. |
| 02:32 | thd | hdl:m in the past 2 days? |
| 02:32 | hdl | I have seen it on bugzilla... |
| 02:33 | yes. | |
| 02:33 | Or was it not what he reported ? | |
| 02:34 | thd | hdl: I am not certain that kados was confident about it being a real problem |
| 02:35 | hdl: he just happened to notice something which did not look correct when tracing a problem for adding items | |
| 02:35 | hdl: is there any reason that changing the size of framework columns should cause a problem? | |
| 02:37 | hdl: that was the problem we were trying to trace but did not find until last night | |
| 02:38 | hdl: unless I goofed I notice that some tables have VAR for framework code and some use CHAR | |
| 02:39 | hdl: if the framework code were smaller than the maximum allowed value in CHAR could the value returned have trailing spaces? | |
| 02:47 | Mordazy | hdl: what if independant branches are set? Is there still one borrower database? or each branch has its own borrower db? |
| 02:48 | that`s the problem | |
| 02:50 | thd | Mordazy: there is only one database really but independent branches is not extensively documented and not a very old feature. It dates from about a year ago |
| 02:50 | Mordazy | I`ve been told that independant branches have independant _everything_ |
| 02:51 | thd | Mordazy: but it is not the same as multiple installations of Koha |
| 02:53 | Mordazy | thd: I know. The problem is that I have no DB yet to conduct proper testing... |
| 02:54 | thd | Mordazy: separate installations would be extra independent and require MySQL databases for each branch |
| 02:56 | Mordazy: there are instructions for installing Koha on http://www.kohadocs.org | |
| 02:57 | Mordazy | yes, but does "intependant" mean in this case that also borrower will have to register in each branch and will have separate accounts with transactions and payments for each branch? |
| 02:58 | thd | Mordazy: just remember that Koha is on http://savanah.nongnu.org/ not sourceforge |
| 02:59 | Mordazy: unfortunately, I do not know that | |
| 03:00 | Mordazy | brb |
| 03:00 | thd | Mordazy: not many libraries actually use the independent branches feature |
| 03:14 | hdl | join #koha-fr |
| 03:49 | Mordazy | I have Koha installed, localized and functional, but have serious problems with database conversion |
| 03:50 | now we`re in consortium using Aleph ILS, which screwed our records totally | |
| 03:51 | our previous LS was using non-relational, text-based databases, so now getting anything out it is a nightmare | |
| 03:54 | mason | so your database conversion problems are between your previous LS and Aleph? |
| 03:58 | Mordazy | no |
| 03:59 | mason: the guys in the central library converted our old record into Aleph | |
| 03:59 | mason | uhuh |
| 03:59 | Mordazy | but since anyone can change our records |
| 03:59 | our database is full of garbage | |
| 04:00 | cleaning it is almost impossible | |
| 04:00 | so we want to use our old databases and add later additions made in Aleph | |
| 04:01 | but my knowledge is not enough yet to do it, so I`m waiting for a friend doing it | |
| 04:02 | Aleph is an Israel-made system working on Oracle | |
| 04:02 | mason | gotcha |
| 04:03 | Mordazy | expensive, not user friendly and looking like windows 1.0 |
| 04:03 | mason | so, is your current DB garbage coz someone did a bad conversion? |
| 04:04 | or because the staff are updating the bib info willy-nilly? | |
| 04:04 | Mordazy | that too |
| 04:04 | there are 8 libraries in the consortium, in a couple of years will be 40 | |
| 04:05 | mason | wow, thats big |
| 04:05 | Mordazy | but the whole thing is made without basic concept |
| 04:05 | mason | right, so not too much consorting at ther moment... |
| 04:05 | Mordazy | ANYBODY in the consortium can not only view, but also CHANGE our records |
| 04:06 | mason | ah, thats a powerful feature :( |
| 04:06 | right i now understand your previous questions about branches. | |
| 04:07 | Mordazy | in addition, there`s nobody in charge, nobody to take full control of anything |
| 04:07 | I don`t want KOHA for consortium | |
| 04:07 | my lib wants to escape from that damn thing before it collapses | |
| 04:08 | I want KOHA for my library ONLY | |
| 04:08 | mason | right, or at least a plan b... |
| 04:08 | Mordazy | but my library consists of 6 branches |
| 04:08 | that`s a plan a :) staying in the consortium is z, maybe :) | |
| 04:09 | that consortium is not an organisation | |
| 04:10 | is a DISorganisation :D | |
| 04:10 | nothing really works | |
| 04:10 | mason | chris has lots of knowledge about branches customisation |
| 04:11 | Mordazy | I could spend couple of days writing of the central library screw-ups :) |
| 04:11 | but it`s not the point | |
| 04:11 | mason | we usually end up doing little mods for each of our libraries... |
| 04:11 | Mordazy | chris, you say... |
| 04:11 | when is he active, usually? | |
| 04:11 | mason | as they all handle issuing rules differently |
| 04:12 | hmm its 9:15pm here in new zealand | |
| 04:12 | Mordazy | issuing rules are notr a big problem |
| 04:12 | I`d just create branch-specific items | |
| 04:15 | but there were couple of regular wars between branches` staff members just because CDs borrowed from Multimedia Branch for two days were accidentally prolonged by two weeks by a girl from Adult Fiction. | |
| 04:15 | prolonged=renewed | |
| 04:16 | mason | right, so your issue is more about access-control of bib records , defined by user groups |
| 04:17 | so sally from Multimedia, can issue or update, only view bibs from her branch... | |
| 04:17 | s/can/cant | |
| 04:18 | so sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch... | |
| 04:18 | . | |
| 04:18 | Mordazy | she could view items from other branches, but couldn`t change it |
| 04:18 | mason | that makes more sense :) |
| 04:18 | snap | |
| 04:18 | Mordazy | that doesn`t matter |
| 04:19 | but exactly that`s what I want | |
| 04:19 | mason | it sounds like a useful feature for an ILS |
| 04:20 | Mordazy | "sally from Multimedia, cant issue or update other branches bibs , only view bibs from her branch" |
| 04:21 | it would be nice, if she could eventually switch to "full view" and see ALL items borrowed by certain user | |
| 04:21 | [see ONLY :))] | |
| 04:21 | mason | i imagine something like the unix file permissions idea, would work ok for this too |
| 04:22 | Mordazy | the problem is that I have less than two months to have system running for tests and another one for testing |
| 04:23 | honestly, I`m surprised that something as useful is not implemented in Koha yet | |
| 04:24 | mason | your situation is uniquw, because the default behaviour is to restrict staff access |
| 04:25 | i think that the feature hasnt happened in koha yet, because there hasnt been a need. (yet) | |
| 04:25 | Mordazy | you know, every branch in our lib has ITS OWN circulation desk |
| 04:26 | there`s no common circulation desk for all branches | |
| 04:26 | but wait | |
| 04:26 | What Branch Categories actually DO? | |
| 04:27 | mason | ah, branches are in the same building? |
| 04:28 | Mordazy | mason: no, 3 are in the same building, 3 are in other locations |
| 04:28 | mason | ah, ok |
| 04:29 | i have to head out about now :( | |
| 04:29 | Mordazy | mason: thanks anyway :) |
| 04:30 | mason | but , lurk about in the next few days and get some better info from other in #koha, who know more about these parts of the system than i do |
| 04:31 | Mordazy | ok, thakns |
| 04:31 | mason | ive got a feeling that koha has restrictions that may work close to what you are looking for |
| 04:31 | Mordazy | thanks |
| 04:31 | me too, my lib is not the only one that has distant branches :) | |
| 04:32 | mason | righo , im off , see you online :) |
| 04:32 | Mordazy | see you! |
| 04:48 | okay... | |
| 04:48 | can anyone explain me, what Branch Categories actually do? | |
| 04:49 | what`s the difference if I assign all branches to one category, or will have a few categories? | |
| 04:49 | brb | |
| 06:29 | re | |
| 07:24 | does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do? | |
| 07:26 | does anybody know what Branch Categories actually do? | |
| 07:43 | hi owen | |
| 07:44 | owen | Hi Mordazy. Have we met before? |
| 07:44 | Mordazy | probably not, I`m new here |
| 07:47 | I`m really impressed with the work you`ve done | |
| 07:48 | I like Koha very much, but not sure if it suits our needs... | |
| 07:48 | would you spare me a few minutes? | |
| 07:48 | owen | I'll answer if I can |
| 07:49 | Mordazy | thanks |
| 07:50 | is it possible to restrict staff from different branches from issuing / returning / renewing items that belong to other branches? | |
| 07:50 | owen | Ah, I recognize your question from the mailing list |
| 07:51 | Mordazy | I mean, Adult Fiction handles only their items / transactions, but can`t change anything in other transactions |
| 07:51 | yes, this is crucial for me | |
| 07:51 | owen | I'm not an expert on the branch restrictions in Koha, because my library doesn't use them. It may be possible to restrict issing and renewing, but I'm less sure about returning. |
| 07:52 | Mordazy | thanks :) |
| 07:56 | we have 3 local branches and 3 in other locations, not to mention all branch managers are rather teritorial types :) | |
| 07:56 | territorial :) | |
| 07:58 | owen | Okay, my quick test indicates that Koha doesn't quite fit your needs: With the 'IndependentBranches' setting turned ON, I was prevented from issuing a book that belonged to another branch. But I wasn't prevented from renewing or from returning items from another branch. |
| 07:58 | Mordazy | ouch :( |
| 07:58 | owen | it seems that those changes would be a logical extension of the current IndependentBranches functionality |
| 07:59 | Mordazy | the question is when :( |
| 07:59 | owen | Right... You'd have to wait an indeterminate amount of time or pay for the changes to be made |
| 08:00 | The core developers are working on numerous upgrade issues, so it's a bad time to ask for volunteers | |
| 08:00 | Mordazy | unfortunately, I need a fast solution :( |
| 08:02 | by the way, does IndependentBranches also make members to register themselves separately to all branches? | |
| 08:03 | owen | Good question. As far as I know the IndependentBranches settings relate to the Koha Librarian, not to the Koha User |
| 08:03 | Mordazy | or is there still common database and accounts? |
| 08:03 | owen | There is definitely not a separate database |
| 08:04 | Mordazy | so, even with Independent.. turned on, a member registered in one branch is automatically registered in all? |
| 08:05 | http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/brama.jpg | |
| 08:05 | http://www.mbp.swidnica.pl/main/bannery/hol1.jpg | |
| 08:06 | owen | Yes, there is always one common member database for all branches. And the IndependentBranches setting doesn't seem to prevent members of one branch from borrowing at another. |
| 08:06 | Mordazy | pics of my library :) |
| 08:06 | owen | Wow! Beautiful! |
| 08:07 | Reminds me very much of Prague, which I've visited several times | |
| 08:07 | Mordazy | ...but rather non-functional :) |
| 08:09 | Wroclaw is current cultural centre in Poland | |
| 08:14 | brb | |
| 08:16 | owen | Mordazy, I've just been looking over your emails again. It's hard to see how Koha could work for you as-is without separate installations at each branch... but then you'd lose the common catalogue (which I assume is a requirement) |
| 08:16 | Mordazy | Swidnica is about 500km from Krakow |
| 08:17 | owen: my earlier emails were rather a bunch ow wishes :) | |
| 08:17 | the really crucial thing is that branch separation issuing / returning / renewing | |
| 08:18 | I would handle the rest | |
| 08:19 | ow=of :) | |
| 08:20 | owen | Then I'm afraid you're back to needing to hire a developer :( |
| 08:21 | Mordazy | that`s the problem |
| 08:22 | as I mentioned, we`re working on exit strategy from a consortium that indesputably is going to collapse in next two years max. | |
| 08:23 | if we haven`t a working ILS in April, we`ll have to stay in it for another year | |
| 08:24 | ...and pay big bucks for nothing :) :( | |
| 08:24 | owen | If there are big bucks involved, couldn't that help justify the hiring of a developer? |
| 08:25 | Mordazy | it` Poland, man :) |
| 08:25 | it`s a country, where tigers run freely on the streets | |
| 08:25 | owen | ? :) |
| 08:25 | Mordazy | and the cops shoot the veterinary :) |
| 08:26 | kados | paul: you around? |
| 08:26 | Mordazy | in other words, it`s a plase that NOTHING works as it should. |
| 08:26 | uch | |
| 08:26 | in other words, it`s a place where NOTHING works as it should. | |
| 08:26 | kados | hehe |
| 08:26 | yea, that's true | |
| 08:28 | Mordazy | a bandit with three sentences for various crimes is a prime minister here :) |
| 08:28 | kados | really? |
| 08:28 | dewey | really are quite different |
| 08:28 | Mordazy | actually, vice-prime minister |
| 08:28 | owen | dewey: forget really |
| 08:28 | dewey | owen: I forgot really |
| 08:29 | owen | dewey: Poland is a country where tigers run freely on the streets |
| 08:29 | dewey | i haven't a clue, owen |
| 08:29 | Mordazy | you know |
| 08:30 | that saying about tigers running is kinda true | |
| 08:30 | a couple years ago a tiger escaped from a zoo | |
| 08:31 | paul | kados, i'm here |
| 08:31 | (compiling zebra & yaz & zoom on btoumi computer) | |
| 08:31 | Mordazy | a veterinary was sent for |
| 08:32 | he managed to get close to the tiger | |
| 08:32 | gave him some meat wit tranquilizer | |
| 08:32 | with | |
| 08:32 | ...and the same moment one of the cops panicked... | |
| 08:32 | ...and shot... | |
| 08:32 | ...the vet. | |
| 08:35 | the sad thing is that most thing go such way here :( | |
| 08:36 | anyway | |
| 08:36 | I`m very sad that Koha hasn`t more complete branch separation :( | |
| 08:37 | owen | Mordazy, I think that requires the dreaded word: consortium |
| 08:37 | Mordazy | not in Poland, unfortunately |
| 08:38 | here that word is a synonym for rip-off :) | |
| 08:39 | if you`re not bored, I`ll tell you why our current consortium came to existence in the first place | |
| 08:40 | quide amusing, but also scary story :) | |
| 08:40 | first of all, the current central library was about to be closed | |
| 08:40 | so they came up with idea of making a consortium | |
| 08:41 | to make as many libraries as possible dependant on them | |
| 08:41 | they made a big noise about common database.. | |
| 08:41 | common policies, easier way to get grants from gov`t and so on | |
| 08:42 | so, our previous manager signed in without thinking | |
| 08:42 | [I wasn`t working here yet] | |
| 08:42 | ...and many others followed | |
| 08:42 | the central lib picked Aleph | |
| 08:43 | VERY expensive, by the way | |
| 08:43 | so they could afford only a couple of licences | |
| 08:44 | of course, as new libraries joined, they had to buy licences for themselves | |
| 08:44 | or course, they also could afford less than they needed | |
| 08:45 | in the meantime the central catalogue appeared to be rather nightmare than blessing | |
| 08:45 | anyone in consortium can viev and CHANGE our records, so you can imagine the mess | |
| 08:45 | toins | kados: you around ? |
| 08:46 | oh yeah ! | |
| 08:46 | Mordazy | ...and we discovered, that we hardly can work on our 8 licences we paid for |
| 08:47 | 4-5, 6, but never eight | |
| 08:47 | toins | do you know this error : Connecting...error = System (lower-layer) error: Connection refused |
| 08:47 | Mordazy | aha, the server for the whole thing is in the central lib |
| 08:47 | we quickly discovered two things | |
| 08:47 | 1) our licences are NOT bound to our computers | |
| 08:48 | but they "float" between libs in a common pool | |
| 08:48 | 2) central lib always uses more licences than they paid for | |
| 08:49 | two-three times more, to be exact :) | |
| 08:49 | kados | toins: I don't know it |
| 08:50 | Mordazy | of course the answer to any and all of our complaints was "it can`t be done" |
| 08:50 | do I have to say more, why we`re desperately looking for an exit from this mess? :) | |
| 08:51 | kados | Mordazy: what's your timeline for leaving the consortium |
| 08:51 | Mordazy | 7-8 months at best. |
| 08:52 | i count that I`d hace system running until new year | |
| 08:52 | have | |
| 08:53 | another 3 months for testing | |
| 08:54 | I hoped that Koha will suit our basic needs right of the box | |
| 08:56 | I could handle the cosmetics | |
| 08:56 | and would also learn a lot :) | |
| 08:57 | `hokay | |
| 08:57 | kados | don't create your own set of templates :-) |
| 08:58 | Mordazy | have to go |
| 08:58 | yeah, I know :) | |
| 08:58 | kados | Mordazy: bye |
| 08:58 | Mordazy | I`ll be back in couple of hours |
| 08:59 | thanks for answers, thanks a lot! | |
| 08:59 | see you! | |
| 09:02 | owen | Poor Mordazy...keeps hoping someone will give him a different answer |
| 09:02 | kados | yea |
| 09:03 | btoumi | oué |
| 09:12 | owen_ | Is there an estimate for the next release of rel_2_2? |
| 09:18 | kados | is paul really in bed? |
| 09:18 | paul_bed: sleeping on the job? :-) | |
| 09:19 | btoumi | no |
| 09:19 | kados | owen: we didn't solidify a release date yesterday, |
| 09:19 | btoumi | it works witth san op today |
| 09:19 | kados | owe |
| 09:19 | owen: erp | |
| 09:19 | owen: keyboard acting up | |
| 09:19 | btoumi | kados do u want to ask something to him |
| 09:20 | ? | |
| 09:20 | kados | just wondering if he saw owen's post above |
| 09:20 | owen: do we have a bug report filed for that one? | |
| 09:20 | btoumi: also, wanted to ask him whether we need to file a bug report for the known bug of missing 090 fields | |
| 09:20 | btoumi: even though we don't know why it happens | |
| 09:21 | btoumi: we know that it does happen | |
| 09:23 | btoumi | btoumi: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion |
| 09:23 | kados: paul is perplexe but i must go in reunion | |
| 09:24 | kados | btoumi: nevermind |
| 09:24 | btoumi: I will ask him when he is back | |
| 09:24 | btoumi | kados: ok |
| 09:45 | owen | Heh.... from Bugzilla: "I will fix this tomorrow" 2003-06-02 :) |
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