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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:35 | slef | z39.50 over port 80? |
| 12:35 | I thought it was usually over UDP and ports like 7090 | |
| 12:52 | kados | slef: every z3950 server uses a different port it seems |
| 12:52 | slef: 210 and 9999 are common ports | |
| 12:58 | slef | aye, but 80? |
| 12:58 | kados | you could run it on 80 |
| 12:59 | I've not seen one on 80 before | |
| 12:59 | slef | I doubt this troublesome firewall allows 80/udp anyway |
| 12:59 | 22/tcp was slow enough to get | |
| 12:59 | kados | lots of firewalls block udp alltogether :-) |
| 12:59 | slef | deep joy |
| 12:59 | kados | :-) |
| 13:00 | you could do it through a proxy | |
| 13:00 | slef | best get a working koha HEAD install first ;-D |
| 13:00 | does z3950-daemon support proxies? | |
| 13:00 | kados | it might |
| 13:00 | if not, it could very easily | |
| 13:01 | bbiab | |
| 13:57 | thd | slef: disable all firewalls for testing :) |
| 13:57 | kados: are you back from lunch yet? | |
| 14:00 | you would think that I was running MS Widows :) | |
| 14:18 | kados? | |
| 14:18 | dewey | i think kados is becoming a true Perl Monger... |
| 14:18 | thd | dewey: where is kados? |
| 14:18 | dewey | rumour has it kados is becoming a true Perl Monger |
| 14:19 | thd | dewey: what else does rumour have |
| 14:19 | dewey | thd: wish i knew |
| 15:02 | thd | kados: are you back from lunch |
| 15:02 | ? | |
| 15:39 | dewey: seen kados? | |
| 15:39 | dewey | kados was last seen on #koha 2 hours, 38 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying: bbiab [Sat Jul 1 06:01:02 2006] |
| 15:40 | thd | dewey: how long is ab? |
| 15:40 | dewey | no idea, thd |
| 15:40 | thd | :0 |
| 17:52 | kados? | |
| 17:52 | dewey | kados is becoming a true Perl Monger... |
| 17:53 | thd | dewey: define monger |
| 17:53 | dewey | thd: huh? |
| 17:54 | thd | dewey: define true? |
| 17:54 | dewey | i don't know, thd |
| 17:59 | thd | dewey: there is a rumour that kados will be bbiab |
| 17:59 | dewey | ...but there is a minor diff in <div>s, that I missed... |
| 18:00 | thd | dewey: what diff was that? |
| 18:00 | dewey | thd: i haven't a clue |
| 18:00 | thd | :) |
| 19:49 | dewey? | |
| 19:49 | dewey | yes, thd? |
| 19:49 | thd | dewey: seen kados? |
| 19:49 | dewey | kados was last seen on #koha 6 hours, 48 minutes and 27 seconds ago, saying: bbiab [Sat Jul 1 06:01:02 2006] |
| 19:50 | thd | dewey: how long is ab now? |
| 19:50 | dewey | bugger all, i dunno, thd |
| 19:50 | thd | dewey: ab is at least 6 hours and 49 minutes |
| 19:50 | dewey | OK, thd. |
| 19:51 | thd | dewey: ab? |
| 19:51 | dewey | i guess ab is at least 6 hours and 49 minutes |
| 22:03 | kados | dewey: seen kados? |
| 22:03 | dewey | kados was last seen on #koha 0 seconds ago, saying: dewey: seen kados? [Sat Jul 1 15:03:30 2006] |
| 22:03 | kados | hehe |
| 22:03 | ab seems to be more hours than I expected | |
| 22:03 | thd: you around? | |
| 22:04 | thd: I've been playing around with faceted searching | |
| 22:04 | thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com | |
| 22:04 | thd | yes kados |
| 22:04 | kados | thd: mainly with subjects, though I could easily add authors, etc. |
| 22:04 | thd: what I could use some advice on | |
| 22:04 | thd: is how to construct 'groups' of subjects in the faceted result set | |
| 22:05 | thd: (I assume you know what I mean by faceted ) | |
| 22:05 | thd: (it's the list of subjects on the left-hand side of the screen after a search) | |
| 22:06 | thd | kados: are you proffering that as a definition for faceted subjects? |
| 22:06 | kados | hehe |
| 22:06 | yes | |
| 22:06 | it's not as faceted as I'd like | |
| 22:06 | I think I'd like to have groupings with expandable lists | |
| 22:06 | so group all 'Fiction' into a 'folder' | |
| 22:07 | so you can expand it and reveal | |
| 22:07 | thd | kados: I would like to see a proper definition of faceted one day |
| 22:07 | kados | the sub subjects |
| 22:07 | thd: what do you think? | |
| 22:07 | thd: is the demo interesting at least? | |
| 22:07 | :-) | |
| 22:07 | thd | kados: Even The subject approach to information does not seem to have a definition |
| 22:08 | kados | I think I could group things into folders based on what is in 650$x |
| 22:08 | ie, 650$x is the folder | |
| 22:08 | the other subfields go into that folder | |
| 22:08 | thd | kados: where is the faceted search? |
| 22:08 | kados | maybe |
| 22:09 | do any search | |
| 22:09 | you'll see the subjects on the left-hand side | |
| 22:09 | of the results screen | |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: do I merely search for a subject heading? |
| 22:09 | kados | just search for anything |
| 22:09 | search for 'harry potter' | |
| 22:10 | thd: do you see what I've done? | |
| 22:12 | thd | very nice |
| 22:12 | kados: what happens with subject subdivisions? | |
| 22:12 | kados | everything is mashed together |
| 22:12 | in the order they appear in the record | |
| 22:12 | if you can think of a more clever way to do it | |
| 22:12 | I'm all ears :-) | |
| 22:13 | thd | kados: that is not faceted, not that LCSH is really faceted |
| 22:13 | kados | it seems like sometimes you could group things by 650$a |
| 22:14 | for instance | |
| 22:14 | a keyword search on harry potter | |
| 22:14 | returns the following: | |
| 22:14 | # Wizards Fiction. (7) | |
| 22:14 | # Schools Fiction. (7) | |
| 22:14 | # Magic Fiction. (5) | |
| 22:14 | in the faceted results | |
| 22:14 | it would look better as: | |
| 22:14 | thd | kados: If it were faceted there would be separate access to each subdivision if LCSH were faceted |
| 22:14 | kados | Fiction |
| 22:14 | -Wizards | |
| 22:14 | _Schools | |
| 22:14 | -Magic | |
| 22:14 | right? | |
| 22:15 | thd | kados: you have a faceted result set not faceted subjects :) |
| 22:15 | kados | right :-) |
| 22:16 | thd | kados: yes that is in a paper which I just copied a few days ago and have not read yet |
| 22:16 | kados | is there a consistant way we could group the subjects? |
| 22:16 | I need a 'simple' formula | |
| 22:17 | if you could explain it to me, I could finish this up tonight | |
| 22:17 | :-) | |
| 22:20 | thd | kados: yes but we should read Gregory Wool. Filing and precoordination : how subject headings are displayed in online catqalogs and why it matters. 2000. In Cataloging & clanssification quarterly. v.29. no. 1/2. 2000. |
| 22:20 | kados | is it available online? |
| 22:20 | google has it :-) | |
| 22:21 | thd | kados: I would have an electronic copy I could send you but the publisher was flooded along with the rest of Bingamton, NY and there is no access to the server. |
| 22:23 | kados: do really find the text in Google? | |
| 22:23 | kados | yes, but the pdf hasn't downloaded yet |
| 22:23 | thd | s/do/do you/ |
| 22:23 | kados | so maybe the publisher has blocked access :( |
| 22:23 | and there's no google cache unfortunately | |
| 22:24 | there is this: http://www.ifla.org/VII/s13/guide/opacguide03.pdf | |
| 22:24 | thd | kados: no there offices are closed because for the past few days because the whole of Bingamton flooded in heavy rains a few days ago. |
| 22:25 | kados | ahh |
| 22:26 | bummer | |
| 22:26 | (which runs zebra btw) | |
| 22:27 | well ... | |
| 22:27 | thd | kados: you will only find a page that says pay your money here for access |
| 22:28 | kados | are subjects in marc21 an arbitrary hierarchy? |
| 22:28 | ie, a potentially infinitly deep? | |
| 22:28 | thd | kados: I went to a library that has electronic access a day or so too late. |
| 22:29 | kados | maybe I can find a review of it |
| 22:29 | thd | kados: most people do not even know that LCSH is hierarchical |
| 22:30 | kados: the depth is arbitrary but the strictly LCSH hierarchy is somewhat shallow | |
| 22:31 | kados: there is a hidden hierarchy but that is a secret until next year | |
| 22:31 | kados | here is an abstract of that article: |
| 22:31 | Library of Congress Subject Headings retrieved as the results of a search in an online catalog are likely to be filed in straight alphabetical, word-by-word order, ignoring the semantic structures of these headings and scattering headings of a similar type. This practice makes LC headings unnecessarily difficult to use and negates much of their indexing power. Enthusiasm for filing simplicity and postcoordinate indexing are likely contributing factors to this phenome | |
| 22:32 | thd: you can't share with me? :-) | |
| 22:32 | thd | kados: you cannot determine any of the hierarchies to display without LCSH authority records |
| 22:32 | kados | ahh |
| 22:32 | that's a bummer | |
| 22:32 | so NPL doesn't have authorities | |
| 22:33 | I suppose that means no hierarchy in the faceted results for them :( | |
| 22:34 | thd | kados: the authority records have designations for linking to broader, narrower, and parallel terms |
| 22:35 | kados: I think what you mean for display of the subject headings in the bibliographic record is likely to be different | |
| 22:37 | kados: the use of $x $z $y $v is subsidiary to $a within the individual heading. | |
| 22:37 | kados | so I could at the very least, group by $a for libraries with no authorities? |
| 22:38 | thd | kados: that is the only hierarchy that most people understand in LCSH |
| 22:38 | kados: yes, and it may be the only meaningful thing for the record itself | |
| 22:39 | kados | sometimes, 'Fiction' is both a $a and a $v |
| 22:39 | in different 650s | |
| 22:39 | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]etail.pl?bib=7646 | |
| 22:39 | for instance | |
| 22:40 | thd | kados: $x could of course be a $a in a different subject heading |
| 22:41 | kados: there is a mistake in that record | |
| 22:42 | kados | heh |
| 22:42 | what's that? | |
| 22:42 | thd | kados: there is a use of the form subdivision as a $x instead of $v as in other instances |
| 22:43 | kados | $x and $v should not be used together? |
| 22:44 | thd | $a Wizards $x Fiction. should be $a Wizards $v Fiction. |
| 22:44 | kados | writing an ILS is like writing a web browser |
| 22:44 | you want to support the standard, but you also have to support what's out there in the real world :-) | |
| 22:46 | thd | kados: MARC 21 is a standard with vestigial organs from its evolutionary origin |
| 22:46 | kados | thd: can all the subfields in a 650 field be expressed as a sentence? |
| 22:46 | thd: and can you tell me what that sentence is? :-) | |
| 22:47 | ie ... | |
| 22:47 | thd | that is only a theory that does not work in practise. |
| 22:47 | kados | this record is $x of $a |
| 22:48 | this record is about $x in $a | |
| 22:48 | or something | |
| 22:48 | dewey | something is not recognising the value actually in the leader. |
| 22:48 | kados | dewey: no something is something |
| 22:48 | dewey | OK, kados. |
| 22:48 | kados | thd: what is the theory? |
| 22:49 | thd | kados: there is a theory that subject headings should be readable in natural language as if they were a sentence |
| 22:51 | kados: that breaks immediately with postcoordinate word order to have the important word appear first. | |
| 22:54 | kados: maybe the post coordinate word order has been eliminated | |
| 22:54 | kados | well ... |
| 22:54 | the bottom line is | |
| 22:54 | thd | kados: there was an effort to do that |
| 22:54 | kados | is there a way to group the subjects? |
| 22:54 | as they exist in the bib record? | |
| 22:55 | if so, how can it be done? | |
| 22:55 | should it always be: | |
| 22:56 | 650 | |
| 22:56 | $a | |
| 22:56 | $x | |
| 22:56 | $y | |
| 22:56 | etc | |
| 22:56 | ? | |
| 22:56 | thd | kados: make a tree with branches representing $a with $z $x $y and $v as twigs. yes |
| 22:56 | kados | ok |
| 22:56 | that I can do quite easily | |
| 22:57 | thd: for all 6XX fields? or only 650? | |
| 22:57 | thd | kados: then have the twigs able to act as subordinate links |
| 22:57 | kados | what's a subordinate link? |
| 22:58 | do you mean it searches on $a as well as $y when you click on $y? | |
| 22:59 | thd | kados: for all 649 - 651 at least. |
| 23:01 | kados: well actually for all cases of $z $x $y $v | |
| 23:02 | kados | ok |
| 23:05 | thd | kados: you could have checkboxes to search by removing any of $z $x $y $v |
| 23:15 | kados: now that I have looked at most of the substance of the article that I had cited it appears to be mostly a complaint about the problems than a recommendation for what should be done. | |
| 23:16 | kados: there is reference top some research work which is only partly described | |
| 23:19 | kados: Mia Miassicotte. Improved browsable displays for online subject access. 1986. In Information technology and libraries. 7:373-80, 1986. | |
| 23:44 | kados: http://www.ala.org/ala/alctsco[…]ructuresFinal.doc | |
| 23:47 | kados: The link above is to ALCTS Cataloging and Classification Section Subject Analysis Committee (SAC). Recommendations for providing access to, display of, navigation within and among, and modifications of existing practice regarding subject reference structures in automated systems. December 1, 2003. | |
| 23:48 | kados; that is what you want | |
| 23:48 | kados | ok, thanks |
| 23:48 | thd | kados: diagrams and everything |
| 23:49 | kados | nice |
| 23:50 | thd | kados: IFLA will never make such nice recommendations for online catalogues officially |
| 23:51 | kados | heh |
| 00:10 | thd | kados: Unfortunately, there is nothing especially innovative in those recommendations even if they go beyond what IFLA would do for subjects presently. |
| 00:11 | kados: most of the recommendations depend upon structure in authority records. | |
| 00:14 | kados; Improved browsable displays for online subject access seems much more promising for what can be done for sorting by geographic, topical, chronological, or form subdivisions. | |
| 00:14 | kados | yes, I would like to experiment with that |
| 00:15 | even with rough data like NPL's there should be some interesting ways to organize the data on the results page | |
| 00:15 | but now I must get some sleep | |
| 00:16 | thd | kados: unfortunately that article is probably in off site storage on very dirty microfilm at the New York Public library |
| 00:17 | kados: are you going to be around tomorrow. I had not asked y9u about what tumer and I may have discovered | |
| 00:17 | kados | yes, I will be programming all day |
| 00:17 | thd | ? |
| 00:17 | kados | working mainly on zebra stuff |
| 00:18 | if you manage to write up a brief description via email I will read it first thing in the morning while I am fresh | |
| 00:18 | thd | kados: it would not take more than a few minutes to confirm what we saw |
| 00:18 | kados | ok ... we'll do it tomorrow (or rather, later today :-)) |
| 00:19 | thd | good night kados |
| 00:19 | kados | night |
| 09:33 | owen: morning | |
| 09:34 | owen: last night I played around with 'faceted results' | |
| 09:34 | owen: do a search on zoomopac to see what I mean | |
| 09:34 | owen: the possibilities are limitless ... we could create facets, subfacets, etc. in search results | |
| 09:52 | owen | kados: that's really neat |
| 09:53 | How does it work? | |
| 10:14 | kados | owen: it basically just nabs subjects from the result set |
| 10:14 | owen: and counts how many of each one there i | |
| 10:14 | owen: then orders it by the highest to lowest | |
| 10:14 | owen: it's really rudementary, we could do lots more with it | |
| 10:15 | owen: getting the interface to look nice might be a challange | |
| 10:15 | owen: but that's your department :-) | |
| 10:26 | owen | kados: that sounds resource-intensive. Does it perform well? |
| 10:32 | kados | very |
| 10:32 | there are two ways to do it | |
| 10:32 | the first is in perl, you basically just nab the subjects as they are returned from zebra | |
| 10:33 | the second, which I spoke at great length with ID about, would include modifications to Zebra to enable the indexes to retrieve data from the entire result set | |
| 10:33 | (right now mine only retrieves it from the current page) | |
| 10:33 | owen | From the current page of search results? |
| 10:33 | kados | yep |
| 10:33 | it's not ideal, but it works fairly well | |
| 10:33 | and is fast :-) | |
| 10:34 | once we get zebra stabilized for production systems | |
| 10:34 | there are three things I'm planning to sponsor/develop for it: | |
| 10:34 | 1. faceted search results | |
| 10:34 | 2. phonetic indexes | |
| 10:34 | 3. stem indexes | |
| 10:35 | in the meantime, I can fake all of the above in perl | |
| 10:35 | but eventually, we'll want all of that stuff handled by the search engine in the background | |
| 10:35 | owen | A couple of ideas, off the top of my head (without knowing if they're possible, of course): Initially display only results with more than one hit, with the option to expand, and sort the 1-hit results alphabetically. |
| 10:36 | kados | yea, that would definitely be possible |
| 10:36 | what I really need | |
| 10:36 | is some good ideas for how the interface should look | |
| 10:36 | because I can imagine haveing several of these faceted results | |
| 10:36 | one for | |
| 10:36 | well ... | |
| 10:36 | subject terms | |
| 10:37 | places | |
| 10:37 | people (about people) | |
| 10:37 | then ... | |
| 10:37 | authors | |
| 10:37 | series titles | |
| 10:37 | popularity | |
| 10:37 | it's really simple to build these | |
| 10:37 | but displaying them is a challenge for me :-) | |
| 10:37 | (notice I removed your navbar :-)) | |
| 10:38 | demo.gapines.org | |
| 10:38 | they've got something similar | |
| 10:38 | and I think I like their display | |
| 10:38 | so that would be one way to approach it | |
| 10:38 | monologue | |
| 10:40 | owen: something else to keep in mind | |
| 10:40 | owen: just like the gapines opac, we could make each of the subjects expandable | |
| 10:40 | owen: ie, group them into categories |
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