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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:01 | thd | owen: so the search that kados has looks like he has modelled it on what is essentially a single word spelling check against an index scan for OCLC. That search has a JavaScript button named javascript:scanindexadv\d . |
| 12:07 | owen: so the search that kados has looks like he has modelled it on what is essentially a single word spelling check against an index scan for OCLC. That search has a JavaScript button named javascript:scanindexadv\d . | |
| 12:09 | owen | Yeah, I don't like the model of choosing from a keyword list, populating your search form, and then searching. I think that's too convoluted for patrons. |
| 12:10 | thd | owen: that is for the advanced patrons :) |
| 12:10 | owen | Sure... but I'd still like to have a browse search for the regular patrons |
| 12:11 | thd | owen: how would you imagine such a browse search for regular patrons functioning |
| 12:11 | ? | |
| 12:13 | kados | owen-away: what you want is coming, and being sponsored by SMFPL |
| 12:13 | but there is something else, called 'scan' | |
| 12:13 | it's not the same as authorities searching (what owen wants) or browsing (what thd wants) | |
| 12:13 | thd | kados: what does owen_+away want? |
| 12:14 | kados | he wants a title or subject search to automatically be a title or authorities search |
| 12:14 | s/or authorities/or subject authorities/ | |
| 12:15 | thd | kados: so that the default searches against the authority file if there is no exact match? |
| 12:15 | kados | right |
| 12:15 | you can see this in action at the Ohio University catalog | |
| 12:15 | http://www.library.ohiou.edu/find/ | |
| 12:17 | thd | kados: I want that too but paul thinks that you should not trick the user into getting more than he expects so there needs to be an option to change such a default. |
| 12:17 | kados | of course |
| 12:17 | quite simple to turn it on/off | |
| 12:18 | thd: how do you like the rest of the zoomopac site? | |
| 12:18 | thd | kados: the OCLC index scan search would be much more useful if it processed more than just the first word in the query even if it processed them independently |
| 12:18 | kados | thd: (set asside our discussion of boolean options since we haven't reached any conclusion on how to display them yet :-)) |
| 12:18 | thd: it does if you do a phrase search | |
| 12:19 | thd: do a 'title phrase' on 'harry potter' | |
| 12:21 | thd | kados: how do I do a phrase search in the advanced search, with double quotes? |
| 12:21 | kados | I've also been looking at google's advanced search page: |
| 12:21 | http://www.google.com/advanced_search | |
| 12:21 | thd | kados: Google is especially terrible at fielded searching. Too bad it is everyones first model now. |
| 12:21 | kados | thd: are you on worldcat in the 'browse index' search? |
| 12:22 | thd | kados: no I was at liblime :) |
| 12:22 | kados | ahh ... |
| 12:22 | no, I haven't done that yet | |
| 12:22 | to see how it would work take a look at oclc | |
| 12:22 | the 'browse index' search | |
| 12:23 | (get to it by clicking on the icon next to each boolean row on the far-right) | |
| 12:23 | scanindexadv(1) is the javascript command | |
| 12:24 | thd | kados: I actually see noting significantly different with phrase quoting than I had before without it. |
| 12:24 | s/noting/nothing/ | |
| 12:25 | kados | at liblime you won't |
| 12:25 | neither at OCLC | |
| 12:25 | you have to select 'phrase title' | |
| 12:25 | it's last on the list | |
| 12:26 | thd | kados: oh yes I forgot that they treat it as a separate index :) |
| 12:26 | kados | zebra does too |
| 12:26 | zebra has a word index and a phrase index | |
| 12:27 | thd | kados: yet you do not expect to select them separately from the field use drop down. |
| 12:28 | kados: field is a distinct concept from word or phrase. | |
| 12:29 | kados | yep |
| 12:29 | in zebra you can specify whether you want the scan to only find complete fields | |
| 12:30 | which would be useful as a rudimentary authorities system of sorts | |
| 12:30 | at least for titles perhaps | |
| 12:31 | thd | kados: complete fields means complete fields does it not such that if you missed some extra date subfield for a particular record in your search words you would miss the record |
| 12:32 | kados | correct |
| 12:32 | here's an example | |
| 12:33 | scan @attr 6=3 "harry potter" | |
| 12:33 | * harry potter (2) | |
| 12:33 | harry potter and the chamber of secrets (11) | |
| 12:33 | harry potter and the goblet of fire (8) | |
| 12:33 | harry potter and the half blood prince (4) | |
| 12:33 | harry potter and the order of the phoenix (5) | |
| 12:33 | harry potter and the philosopher s stone (1) | |
| 12:33 | etc. | |
| 12:34 | thd | kados: 245 is not an authority controlled field in any case |
| 12:34 | kados | ok ... |
| 12:35 | I realize that :-) | |
| 12:35 | here's an authorities-relevant scan: | |
| 12:35 | scan @attr 6=3 @attr 1=21 "cat" | |
| 12:35 | * cat (1) | |
| 12:35 | cat breeds (7) | |
| 12:35 | cat family mammals (3) | |
| 12:35 | cat in the hat fictitious character (6) | |
| 12:35 | cat owners (20) | |
| 12:35 | catalog (1) | |
| 12:35 | cataloging (1) | |
| 12:35 | cataloging of children s literature (3) | |
| 12:35 | cataloging of compu | |
| 12:35 | thd | kados: which is good that there is an alternative technique because an actual authorities search will not provide much for title |
| 12:35 | kados | etc |
| 12:36 | thd | kados: subjects are authority controlled |
| 12:37 | kados: where is the advanced search at http://www.library.ohiou.edu/find/ ? | |
| 12:38 | kados | dunno |
| 12:38 | it's a black box to me :-) | |
| 12:40 | I think the default for a scan should be 'phrase', at least on the OPAC | |
| 12:40 | and by default it should return full fields, not just phrases | |
| 12:40 | thd | kados: It looks like they were afraid of confusing the user and providing more than one field in a search form or perhaps the system does not have the ability to manage more than one index |
| 12:41 | kados | right |
| 12:41 | owen-away: I'm gonna edit the template quickly | |
| 12:42 | thd | the http://www.library.ohiou.edu/find/ post search browse function works like the one in Voyager and many other systems |
| 12:44 | kados | thd: on the liblime power search, you can now select 'Scan Indexes' |
| 12:45 | thd: the full bib1 attribute set should be available as well | |
| 12:46 | hmmm ... | |
| 12:46 | not sure it's working perfectly yet | |
| 12:46 | ahh, yes it is | |
| 12:47 | obviously authorities are better, but this might do the trick | |
| 12:48 | for libraries who don't want to buy authorities, etc. | |
| 12:48 | thd | kados: how do you change the size or rather I mean height of selection boxes? |
| 12:48 | kados | thd: you'd have to ask owen |
| 12:48 | thd: it's in CSS I think | |
| 12:49 | owen-away: IMO 'Options' should be changed to 'As:' | |
| 12:49 | thd | kados: I always found selection box style to be outside my control but obviously I missed something. |
| 12:50 | kados | I'd like to see more clearly defined columns in the power search |
| 12:50 | so that all the 'search point' selection boxes lined up | |
| 12:50 | and all the 'Options' or 'As' lined up too | |
| 12:51 | thd | kados: have you looked at my Z39.50 client again? |
| 12:51 | kados | thd: what's the url again? |
| 12:54 | thd | kados: I was adding some options that are now hard coded but I kept falling asleep while sitting at the keyboard |
| 12:56 | kados: I spent a day and a half rethinking term set grouping as some hybrid of selection box parentheses and group marking but that is a very difficult problem. | |
| 12:58 | kados: my conclusion two years ago was that term set marking without visual parenthesis was difficult to track in the mind with very deep nesting. | |
| 13:00 | kados: I suspect that there is no term set grouping solution that satisfies my flexibility and speed of expert use goals without refreshing the page so that part of it can be rewritten. | |
| 13:03 | kados: do you have Z39.50 target I can add that supports numeric comparison reliably? | |
| 13:03 | kados | zebra should :-) |
| 13:04 | it's not a live target though | |
| 13:04 | I'll need to enable it, maybe this weekend I'll have time | |
| 13:04 | thd | kados: you only have a dead target?? :) |
| 13:05 | kados | hehe |
| 13:05 | thd | kados: did you see the current form of the interface? |
| 13:05 | kados | yes |
| 13:05 | I think the group thing is one way to do it | |
| 13:05 | I need to think about it a bit too | |
| 13:06 | thd | I tried to make explicit the relationship of relation and other options to the term and the field. |
| 13:08 | after placing that backwards in the same way that you had originally | |
| 13:08 | kados: do you have a little time to consider what I meant by multi-MARC Koha? | |
| 13:09 | kados | not at the moment |
| 13:09 | right now I'm: | |
| 13:09 | thinking about browsing | |
| 13:10 | thd | kados: real browsing? |
| 13:10 | kados | sorry ... no, scanning :-) |
| 13:10 | we'll get to browsing | |
| 13:13 | thd | kados: I do not remember if I said properly but I had thought that multiple words should have an option for independent evaluation without phrase browsing so that a phrase search is not needed. |
| 13:14 | kados: phrase searches are unreliable and very prone to user error by the cataloguer or the patron | |
| 13:14 | kados: unfortunately there are a few important targets that do not support word list searching properly | |
| 13:17 | kados: word list searches need to be rewritten as word searches for those problem targets | |
| 13:17 | kados | thd: give the zebra one a shot on the liblime site |
| 13:17 | thd | s/word searches/separate word searches/ |
| 13:18 | kados | check the difference between word and word list |
| 13:26 | owen | <thd>kados: what does owen_+away want? |
| 13:26 | <kados>he wants a title or subject search to automatically be a title or authorities search | |
| 13:26 | Except that it doesn't have to be an Authorities search with a capital A. | |
| 13:27 | I just want the result to be displayed to the patron in context with other nearby results | |
| 13:27 | I don't need an authority record to tell me what title in our index comes before and after the phrase 'Harry Potter.' | |
| 13:29 | kados | that's true |
| 13:30 | owen: so try the new Power Search checkbox with the 'complete field' Truncation attribute | |
| 13:30 | thd | owen: yes , some systems such as Voyager have this standard feature and the issue is really independent of authorities because one could still misspell something and miss every authorised form as well as all tracings and cross references. |
| 13:30 | kados | owen: and see if the results are meaningful to you |
| 13:31 | owen: sorry ... it's the 'Completeness' attribute | |
| 13:31 | owen: 'complete subfield and complete field are identical in Zebra, so it doesn't matter which one you select) | |
| 13:32 | thd | kados: Proper use of that option is supposed to cause the match to fail completely if the match is imprecise if I understand Z39.50 correctly. |
| 13:32 | owen | so that search requires that I get the full title exactly right? |
| 13:32 | thd | owen: that is my understanding |
| 13:32 | kados | owen: you just have to get what you type right |
| 13:32 | owen: try it out | |
| 13:33 | thd | kados: that would be incomplete field |
| 13:33 | owen | Doesn't seem very useful. |
| 13:33 | In what situation would you want that kind of search? | |
| 13:33 | kados | in power search |
| 13:33 | select 'Subject' | |
| 13:33 | type in 'cat' | |
| 13:33 | then select 'Completeness' and choose 'Complete Field' | |
| 13:34 | then check the box | |
| 13:34 | and do the search | |
| 13:34 | owen | I get one result :) |
| 13:34 | kados | ? |
| 13:35 | you sure you don't have any othe rlimits set on the power search? | |
| 13:35 | only option that should be set is the completeness one | |
| 13:35 | thd | s/incomplete field/incomplete subfield, there is no incomplete field option./ |
| 13:35 | kados | i get 10 results |
| 13:35 | owen | I get 10 results for a keyword search, but 1 for a subject search |
| 13:36 | kados | I get 10 for subject |
| 13:37 | thd: it's not specified in bib1, is it? | |
| 13:37 | owen | I did a shift-reload to make sure all the form fields were reset |
| 13:37 | kados | me too |
| 13:37 | I still get 10 results :-) | |
| 13:38 | thd | kados: What is not specified in Bib-1? |
| 13:38 | kados | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]&query4=&op5=%40a |
| 13:38 | thd: there is no 'incomplete field' in bib1 | |
| 13:38 | owen | kados: that link takes me to 1 result! |
| 13:38 | kados | thd: http://www.loc.gov/z3950/agenc[…]html#completeness |
| 13:38 | owen: !! | |
| 13:39 | so something else is going on | |
| 13:39 | I get: | |
| 13:39 | thd | kados: yes, only incomplete subfield which is what one would usually want |
| 13:39 | kados | cat (1) |
| 13:39 | cat breeds (7) | |
| 13:39 | cat family mammals (3) | |
| 13:39 | cat in the hat fictitious character (6) | |
| 13:39 | cat owners (20) | |
| 13:39 | catalog (1) | |
| 13:39 | cataloging (1) | |
| 13:39 | cataloging of children s literature (3) | |
| 13:39 | cataloging of computer network resources (1) | |
| 13:39 | catalogs (292) | |
| 13:40 | owen | hunh? I'm not getting a result set like that, I'm getting the usual search results list |
| 13:41 | thd | kados: However, it is unclear to me what should happen for the case of searches where the term cross subfield boundaries |
| 13:41 | kados | owen: strange |
| 13:43 | thd: there is no handling of that currently IIUC | |
| 13:43 | thd: it shouldn't be treated with a completeness attribute | |
| 13:44 | thd | kados: that is the completeness attribute option for incomplete field: no use of the completeness attribute. |
| 13:45 | kados: however, I know targets actually supply completeness as incomplete subfield by default. | |
| 13:47 | kados | thd: with the above link I posted, do you see a list of items on a blank page? |
| 13:47 | owen: this is really bugging me ... what is going on? | |
| 13:47 | thd | kados: look at how the National Library of Canada at last claims things work on AMICUS http://www.collectionscanada.c[…]06002-420-e.html7 |
| 13:49 | kados: I have one cat title from that link but maybe the URL was truncated by the limits of this IRC service | |
| 13:49 | kados | thats' what owen is getting too |
| 13:50 | owen | I'm trying it again and again, but still just the one result for subject:cat, completeness:complete field |
| 13:51 | kados | ok |
| 13:51 | thd | kados: is your URL supposed to end in &query4=&op5=%40a ? |
| 13:51 | kados | hmmm |
| 13:52 | thd | kados: Is it over 471 characters? |
| 13:52 | kados | no no, that doesn't make sense |
| 13:52 | ahh, it must be | |
| 13:53 | thd | kados: I had the same problem sending a URL to hdl some time ago |
| 13:54 | kados: months ago, I discovered that if I type too many sentences in a single post no one but me can see them | |
| 13:55 | kados | hehe |
| 13:55 | thd | logbot has missed my best posts ;( |
| 13:56 | owen | dewey, what are thd's best posts? |
| 13:56 | dewey | owen: bugger all, i dunno |
| 13:56 | owen | dewey: thd's best posts are the ones that exceed 471 characters |
| 13:56 | dewey | OK, owen. |
| 13:56 | kados | hehe |
| 13:58 | owen: i think i might know the prob | |
| 13:58 | owen: if you change all the forms to 'post' rather than 'get' it might work | |
| 13:59 | owen: I bet your browser can't send more than X number of gets | |
| 13:59 | owen: or maybe the OS | |
| 13:59 | owen: but post is supposed to be unlimited | |
| 13:59 | thd | kados: how do you copy the URL then? |
| 13:59 | get has no limits either | |
| 13:59 | kados | thd: my browser obviously doesn't have that limitation :-) |
| 14:00 | thd | the problem is the limits for this IRC channel |
| 14:00 | kados | ahh, maybe |
| 14:00 | bbiab | |
| 14:00 | thd | kados: this is not a browser issue the limit is that the IRC channel is truncating your post |
| 14:01 | kados: Am I mistaken? | |
| 14:01 | s/post/IRC post/ | |
| 14:02 | owen | "the amount of form data that can be handled by the get method is limited by the maximum length of the URL that the server and browser can process" |
| 14:02 | http://www.htmlhelp.org/refere[…]0/forms/form.html | |
| 14:02 | kados | yep |
| 14:02 | thd | kados: some very old browsers had unreasonable limits on the length of get strings but none of us have those browsers anymore |
| 14:06 | kados owen: in the real world just about every very large site with complex get queries uses get strings much longer than 100 characters. | |
| 14:07 | kados owen: the only thing that I would not put in a get request is an actual MARC record. | |
| 14:11 | owen: how do I change the height of selection boxes? | |
| 14:14 | owen | size="" I think |
| 14:15 | thd | owen: is that not for the width? But i suppose it scales the whole thing. |
| 14:15 | owen | for a <select> ? |
| 14:16 | thd | owen: Is there a mans to change the style of the selection box text such as baking it bold? |
| 14:16 | owen: yes I mean the select tag | |
| 14:17 | owen | The width is determined by the longest <option> unless specified in the stylesheet |
| 14:17 | thd | s/mans/means/ |
| 14:17 | owen | You can also use styles to make the text bold |
| 14:18 | thd | owen: these styles cannot be implemented without specification in the style sheet? |
| 14:19 | owen: i have usually modelled with direct code and then implemented the change on the style sheet. | |
| 14:19 | owen | I'm not sure how it works with <select>s you could try <select style="font-weight: bold"> |
| 14:20 | But the size attribute is definitely part of the HTML. | |
| 14:28 | thd | owen: the size attribute for select specifies the size of the selection widow for the number of options to present at one time so height must be a font element. |
| 14:30 | owen | Height of the text in the selection box? |
| 14:31 | thd | owen: yes height of the text and of the box itself just around that text |
| 14:31 | owen | Then yes, use styles. <select style="font-size: 110%"> |
| 14:32 | thd | owen: in the case where the selection window is closed and showing only one selection option |
| 14:34 | owen: thanks, i never explored CSS options well enough historically because i avoided any options that did not function in the oldest of browsers. Which was most CSS options. | |
| 14:42 | kados | owen: ok ... |
| 14:42 | owen: now ... try the checkbox | |
| 14:43 | owen: cat as a subject using 'completeness' as 'complete subfield' | |
| 14:45 | owen: and you can create a new way to display the 'scan' results | |
| 14:45 | owen: you've got a new template param called 'scan' to work with | |
| 14:45 | owen: everything comes in as a title | |
| 14:47 | owen | checkbox? |
| 14:48 | kados | go to the power search |
| 14:48 | pick 'subject' | |
| 14:48 | put 'cat' in the field | |
| 14:49 | under 'completeness' pick complete field | |
| 14:49 | owen | Was that the problem before?! |
| 14:49 | kados | maybe |
| 14:49 | I didn't change that at all | |
| 14:49 | I just made the results show up in the context of normal search results just now | |
| 14:51 | owen | I think before I wasn't getting that I needed to check a checkbox |
| 14:52 | kados | ahh, yea, that makes sense |
| 14:52 | how's it work? | |
| 14:52 | owen | I see 10 results!! :D |
| 14:52 | kados | heh |
| 14:52 | does it work as you'd expect ? | |
| 14:52 | thd | kados: This provides no distinction between complete subfield or incomplete subfield. Complete subfield matches do not necessarily even appear at the top and are certainly not clearly differentiated. |
| 14:53 | kados | thd: what? |
| 14:53 | thd: what doesn't provide a distinction? | |
| 14:53 | thd | kados: what you are doing is supporting a function other than attended by the attribute type |
| 14:55 | kados: a search for cat in title as a complete subfield should only match where cat is the whole main, the whole subtitle, or the whole statement of responsibility | |
| 14:56 | kados | thd: not for a scan |
| 14:56 | thd: scan works differently than search | |
| 14:56 | thd: apparantly :-) | |
| 14:56 | thd: because you're absolutely right when it comes to searching | |
| 14:56 | thd: as is evidenced by not checking the box | |
| 14:57 | thd | kados: oh, i thought you had changed some configuration to achieve this that broke the intended functionality |
| 14:58 | kados | no |
| 14:58 | it's how it worked by default | |
| 14:58 | take it up with Index Data or check the Z3950 Spec about how Scan should work | |
| 14:58 | thd | kados: but I did not check any box in power search so you did change something for the default |
| 14:58 | kados | um |
| 14:59 | thd: I don't understand | |
| 15:00 | thd | kados: I used power search which has no user option for scan or other search types. |
| 15:02 | kados | thd: you need to shift-refresh your page |
| 15:02 | thd | kados: oh |
| 15:06 | kados: I have the checkbiox now and see what you had done but I still contend that either Zebra is misconfigured or this is not implemented as the standard intended | |
| 15:09 | kados: what I would expect from the actual records that I can see and therefore know are in the database is that a title search on cat as a complete subfield should only match where the record contains cat and no other word in $a which is the only case matching a complete subfield in existing data. | |
| 15:09 | kados: I do also understand and desire what Owen wants | |
| 15:10 | kados | thd: if you can point to where in the standard that is specified for the Scan type, i'd be interested |
| 15:11 | thd | kados: scan merely returns the index reference rather than complete records |
| 15:11 | kados: I see the same problem whether the scan checkbox is checked or not | |
| 15:12 | kados: the result set includes more than what it ought to for a complete subfield match | |
| 15:13 | kados: that is fine if the application is running some additional less restrictive search to show more records | |
| 15:14 | kados: my point is that the additional less restrictive search should be clearly distinguished in the result set from the search where only $a is matched completely | |
| 15:14 | kados | thd: no ... |
| 15:15 | thd | kados: explain |
| 15:15 | kados | thd: try a complete field search on 'it' |
| 15:15 | sorry ... 'complete subfield' | |
| 15:15 | actually, they both are the same in zebra | |
| 15:15 | so you are commenting on a limitation of zebra I think | |
| 15:16 | if I understand correctly | |
| 15:16 | thd | kados: I had done and if they are the same something is not right |
| 15:16 | kados | correct |
| 15:16 | so like all Z3950 servers, zebra implements a subset of the standard :-) | |
| 15:16 | thd | :) |
| 15:17 | kados: Z39.50 services are the primary business of Index Data. I would have thought that they would have done this better. | |
| 15:18 | kados: Not that it is not good but that it is not better. | |
| 15:19 | kados: do you understand at least what I was expecting? | |
| 15:27 | kados | thd: of course :-) |
| 15:27 | thd: but ... I'm not convinced that you are right | |
| 15:27 | thd: I'll need to re-read the scan service in the Z3950 spec to be sure | |
| 15:28 | thd | kados: scan does not change how the attributes function |
| 15:29 | kados | thd: are you sure? |
| 15:29 | how would you indicate that you wanted to return entire subfields in an index scan? | |
| 15:29 | according to the spec? | |
| 15:30 | thd | kados: I would not stake my life on it and I have not rechecked the documentation but I am fairly confident unless some attributes are not meant to be supported with scan at all. |
| 15:31 | kados: let me explain briefly the general sense I have of what I believe that owen and I are expecting. | |
| 15:32 | kados: user conducts a search which either produces no matches or very few matches. | |
| 15:32 | kados: the system notices, aha, no matches or very few matches | |
| 15:35 | kados: the system application checks whether the user had specified a system preference or checked an option for do not run a secondary search automatically.. | |
| 15:35 | kados: no such option had been checked or selected. | |
| 15:36 | kados | thd: some users would expect this option when there were 'too many' results, not too few |
| 15:36 | thd: the assumption being that you didn't find what you were looking for :-) | |
| 15:37 | thd | kados: the system runs some other search or searches automatically and then presents the results as your original search and each different automatic search with the search specified |
| 15:38 | kados: yes I agree, the system could also convert a search into a phrase or beginning of field search etc. for fewer matches. | |
| 15:39 | kados | thd: I'm expecting to release 2.3.0 early next week as a 'beta' Zebra version of Koha |
| 15:39 | thd: I'm hoping I can get libraries to comment on how the system is performing in terms of how the default searches are working | |
| 15:39 | thd: doing what you suggest wouldn't take more than a day or so of coding | |
| 15:39 | thd | kados: the point is to have the search results show explicitly when something was different from the user search. |
| 15:40 | kados | thd: we could call it 'smart searching' |
| 15:40 | thd: and it could be a checkbox | |
| 15:40 | thd | kados: if the completeness option does nothing then that should be indicated. |
| 15:40 | kados | thd: completeness does do something! |
| 15:41 | thd | s/nothing/nothing meaningfully related to its intended function/ |
| 15:43 | kados: from what i can see, I would suspect that the Index Data completeness option has a bug in implementation unless you have misconfigured the server some how. | |
| 15:45 | kados: before you go too far down the path of inflexible numbered query rows let me send you some code so you can see how looping through an array works exactly to achieve the same function. | |
| 15:45 | kados | thd: i understand it and have already updated my code :-) |
| 15:45 | thd | kados: I think that looping through an array will prove much more extensible. |
| 15:48 | kados: I see that your search form is is still numbering the name attribute rows. | |
| 15:49 | kados: I expected that you understood the concept but it does not appear to me that you have actually implemented it yet. | |
| 15:51 | kados: Or at least not in a way that would allow the user to arbitrarily extend any field row type by an unknown number to whatever degree the user desires. | |
| 15:55 | kados | thd: it's not fully implemented in the template |
| 15:55 | thd: maybe this weekend :-) | |
| 15:56 | thd | :) |
| 15:57 | kados: this weekend would be starting now would it not :) | |
| 15:57 | kados | hehe |
| 15:57 | I'm working on the scan currently | |
| 15:58 | thd | kados: I want to get your sense of what I mean by multi-MARC Koha. When would that be possible. |
| 15:58 | ? | |
| 15:58 | kados | now's not bad |
| 15:58 | go ahead ... | |
| 15:59 | thd | kados: OK what I had asked paul about from many months ago was the extent of his research into mapping one MARC system onto another. |
| 16:01 | kados: That had been an element of my original thinking for mere efficiency of taking advantage of some record content that only existed in one flavour. | |
| 16:01 | kados: He never presumed that such a thing was desirable in the original design of MARC Koha. | |
| 16:03 | kados: Zebra would seem to give a much better opportunity to have the system making use of records in multiple flavours. | |
| 16:05 | kados: Very big libraries which acquire material from many languages have this problem and I of course want too search multiple libraries across flavours. | |
| 16:05 | s/too/to/ | |
| 16:09 | kados | right |
| 16:09 | thd | kados: the usual way big libraries with multilingual acquisitions do this is to either expect their vendor to supply records, or some national libraries such as DDB have conversion subscriptions for supplying MARC 21 converted records over Z39.50 or FTP. |
| 16:10 | kados | thd: there is nothing stopping us from retrieving other flavors of MARC from other catalogs |
| 16:11 | thd | kados: I see no obstacle except a bit of code for allowing Koha to be much more flexible in storing multiple databases of records. |
| 16:11 | kados: different MARC flavours cannot be reliably distinguished by the records themselves | |
| 16:12 | kados: therefore, they would need to be stored in a different database. | |
| 16:13 | kados: there are a couple of simple field presence tests which would allow distinguishing UNIMARC from MARC 21 | |
| 16:14 | kados: However, such a simple test relies on the fact that they happen to contain major fields such as main entry in a field not used in the other format presently. | |
| 16:16 | kados: such usage might one day change and that is insufficient to distinguish very closely related formats such as MARC 21 and IBERMARC. | |
| 16:17 | kados: the major obstacle to multi-MARC Koha is that the flavour attribute and framework is an all or nothing thing. | |
| 16:19 | kados: It ought to be possible to choose amongst multiple frameworks flavours depending on the flavour of the record itself and not on the flavour of the one and only one setting in the system preference. | |
| 16:19 | or the one and only one framework flavour. | |
| 16:22 | kados: the problem here is that there are no existing Koha libraries that would care about such a feature except maybe the work Tumer is doing where as understood it his institution was being gifted with large numbers of books from all over the EU. | |
| 16:23 | kados | right |
| 16:23 | that's my problem with it too | |
| 16:23 | I still maintain that before 3.0 is out | |
| 16:24 | Koha will not delete data that exists in a record just because it's not in the frameowrk | |
| 16:24 | when using the editor | |
| 16:24 | so that's a partial fix | |
| 16:24 | thd | kados: my thought had been that you wanted to have 3.0 out as quickly as could be managed the thought of having to change and debug all the code changes required would be too much. |
| 16:25 | kados: yes, fixing that in the editor might be a fairly simple matter. | |
| 16:27 | kados: yet changing how MARC flavour is called everywhere throughout Koha is liable to be much more complex. | |
| 16:28 | kados: You had asserted that you did not think multi-MARC Koha would be too many changes for 3.0. Do you still think so now that I have explained. | |
| 16:28 | ? | |
| 16:29 | kados | it's an interesting proposition |
| 16:30 | I'll have to give it some more thought | |
| 16:33 | thd | kados: If the system can store multiple formats then it can have progressively better conversion between formats but it should not be necessary to even convert for some libraries. The framework can do all the work at query and record editing time. |
| 16:37 | kados: Conversion in advance would save CPU time over querying multiple databases but if they are all local databases that is really little different than where many libraries have separate databases for books, serials, etc. rather than storing all records in one database and distinguishing them by the leader when searching. | |
| 16:39 | kados: Authority systems, except for language differences in personal names, are much less divergent than you might suppose. | |
| 16:40 | kados: However, there are some secrets about MARC authority files that I probably have to keep through about the middle of next year. | |
| 16:43 | kados: The actual differences are often minor so I should correct the assumption presented by mere differences in language. | |
| 16:48 | kados: MARC and the library systems that underlie it had been badly broken for the purposes of record exchange. However, there is much more that has been done to correct that than the efforts at format unification for MARC 21. | |
| 16:50 | kados | thd: secrets you need to keep? |
| 16:51 | thd | kados: I am just dying to tell you but I fear that if I reveal all I will lose the ability to obtain funding for a business myself. |
| 16:51 | kados | heh |
| 16:52 | rach | morning gentlemen |
| 16:52 | kados | thd: while we've been talking I have implemented a scan search equally as good as worldcats :-) |
| 16:52 | thd | good morning rach |
| 16:52 | kados | morning rach |
| 16:52 | thd: give it a shot | |
| 16:52 | thd | kados: worldcat does not have a good one :) |
| 16:53 | kados | thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]query1=cat&scan=1 |
| 16:53 | thd: :-) | |
| 16:53 | thd: show me a good one and I'll make Koha's as good :-) | |
| 16:53 | rach | are you recovered from your international jaunt? |
| 16:54 | kados | rach: yea, things are finally slowing down |
| 16:54 | thd | not me rach |
| 16:54 | kados | rach: it's always hard to catch up after being out of the countr |
| 16:54 | y | |
| 16:54 | chris: you aroudn? | |
| 16:54 | chris: check out the scan search: | |
| 16:54 | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]r+1%3D1016&scan=1 | |
| 16:54 | chris: you can also do one from the power search | |
| 16:55 | chris: use 'completeness' to return complete subfields | |
| 16:55 | rach | what's the index it's scaning? |
| 16:55 | kados | rach: the Koha bibliographic index |
| 16:55 | NPL's data | |
| 16:56 | thd | kados: you are missing the default value in the scan index for textbox |
| 16:57 | rach | is the index a seperate file, rather than searching the records directly? |
| 16:57 | kados | rach: the index is the zebra index |
| 16:58 | thd: what should the default be? | |
| 16:58 | thd | kados: whatever was the search term if you are modelling it on WorldCat |
| 16:58 | kados | thd: you mean the value the user entered? |
| 16:58 | ahh | |
| 16:59 | thd | kados: also the selected option for Indexed in should be context sensitive in a similar manner. |
| 17:00 | kados | thd: ok ... sec |
| 17:02 | thd: actually, that's not practical at the moment | |
| 17:02 | thd: it at least preseves the original query USE attribute | |
| 17:03 | thd: which is enough context sensitive for me now :-) | |
| 17:03 | thd: now it's time to implement the 'smart search' feature :-) | |
| 17:06 | thd | kados: WorldCat also fills the search form with the selected scan result. I know that owen thinks that is convoluted for the ordinary user but it should be available as an option because it is certainly valuable if the result set is too large. |
| 17:06 | kados | thd: actually, that name is trademarked, do you have another idea for a name? |
| 17:07 | thd | kados: clever search? |
| 17:07 | chris | the best search in the world |
| 17:07 | tm | |
| 17:08 | thd | kados: I want a system where simple search is called simpleton search to get more users to investigate fielded searching |
| 17:11 | I wish more people would think: oh no, I don't want to use simpleton search that is liable give me poor results. | |
| 17:11 | chris | the problem is, they dont know what poor results are |
| 17:12 | they just think, the library doesnt have what i want | |
| 17:12 | thd, are you on the next gen opac mailing list? | |
| 17:13 | thd | chris: poor results are often too many results so that the most helpful results are buried several pages down |
| 17:13 | rach | with websites (rather than libraries) surveys have shown that the presence of an advanced search almost garauntees people won't find what they are looking for |
| 17:13 | if they can't find it using the simple search, they definitly can't using an advanced search | |
| 17:14 | thd | rach: I know this is a world where most people use no more than two word queries which usually guaranties poor results |
| 17:15 | rach | so I think the scan that you've done there kados looks great |
| 17:15 | thd | rach the job of smart search [name taken already] is to assist the user in forming better queries. |
| 17:15 | rach | thd: yep there is an inherant problem that if you know what you're doing well enough to use the advanced search you probably can get good enough resuls out of a simple one |
| 17:16 | I guess that's why librarians probably won't be out of a job too soon | |
| 17:17 | thd | rach: except that the public perception is now that everyone knows how to search because everyone uses Google or something like it. |
| 17:18 | rach: I think that librarianship in the public sector actually has a problem of being perceived as valuable by the public | |
| 17:18 | rach | well people aren't going to get any smarter so the programmes have to :-) |
| 17:20 | by people who use libraries? or public at large? | |
| 17:20 | erg | |
| 17:20 | sorry gotta scoot, nearly feed tim | |
| 17:20 | thd | rach: actually some of the worst searches I ever met were librarians but that is true for any profession that participation and skill are not a necessary combination |
| 17:20 | chris: what is that mailing list? | |
| 17:21 | chris | 2 secs ill find the url |
| 17:23 | http://dewey.library.nd.edu/ma[…]ng-lists/ngc4lib/ | |
| 17:23 | its just new, just started last week | |
| 17:24 | as usual its a pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing, but some interesting things have been said | |
| 17:24 | thd | see what happens when I stop paying attention to the world |
| 17:24 | chris | hehe |
| 17:31 | kados | thd: simpleton++ :-) |
| 17:39 | thd | what does this post mean http://dewey.library.nd.edu/ma[…]/200606/0087.html |
| 17:40 | does it imply that ILS system vendors are not profitable? | |
| 17:41 | chris | yeah |
| 17:42 | thats how i read it | |
| 17:42 | i think someone is smoking crack :) | |
| 17:48 | thd | chirs: I imagine most ILS vendors beat Amazon by a large degree in terms of profit as a proportion of total revenue since Amazon is paying to run the library too with all the warehousing, materials handling, and individual user support that they do. |
| 17:49 | s/they do/Amazon does/ | |
| 17:49 | chris | yeah exactly |
| 17:49 | they dont get audi's to drive around in by losing money | |
| 17:57 | thd | chris Google is different because they are not paying to run the library. Amazon is barely profitable but barely for a huge quantity of revenue which means they do just fine. However, Amazon's original business model was sustained by a stock scam when they were losing money every time someone bought something. |
| 18:00 | actually, the first Amazon model was sound but then they started opening expensive warehouses and needed every customer in the world for those to function efficiently enough for profit. | |
| 19:34 | kados: are you there? | |
| 19:38 | kados | thd: hi |
| 19:39 | I have to go in about 15-20 minutes | |
| 19:40 | thd | kados: i thought of how many existing Koha libraries want multi-standard Koha even if they have no interest in multi-MARC Koha. |
| 19:42 | kados | right |
| 19:43 | thd | kados: Although, I may be mistaken abut what existing Koha libraries actually have an interest. |
| 19:44 | kados: Very many libraries in the world at least have an interest in using non-MARC data. | |
| 19:44 | kados: structured non-MARC data needs frameworks to interpret it. | |
| 19:45 | kados: Do any of your libraries have an interest in non-MARC data? | |
| 19:45 | kados | yes |
| 19:46 | chris | almost all of ours do |
| 19:46 | thd | kados:I mean structured non-MAC data. Even web pages are structured since they at least have title etc. |
| 19:47 | for every different structured data type we should have a framework for how to manage it for Koha. | |
| 19:48 | kados | agreed :-) |
| 19:48 | i would like to implement the frameworks in XSLT | |
| 19:48 | or something like it | |
| 19:48 | thd | kados: Do you see how this is related to the issue of what is needed for multi-MARC Koha as I had described it? |
| 19:49 | kados | yes |
| 19:50 | thd | kados: Although, you could probably have more non-MARC frameworks even while limiting MARC framework code to one flavour with some less work on code changing. |
| 19:51 | kados | I think the easiest way to have non-MARC is to adopt Dublin Core or MODS as the non-MARC |
| 19:51 | since there already exist crosswalks between them | |
| 19:51 | thd | kados: So now this is not completely a minority feature but a feature that most every library wants :) |
| 19:52 | chris | marc is the minority |
| 19:52 | if you count special and corporate libraries | |
| 19:52 | far more libraries dont use it than do use it | |
| 19:52 | thd | exactly |
| 19:53 | chris | and i think koha has a unique place in being one of the few ils to support both |
| 19:53 | or at least attempting too :) | |
| 19:54 | thd | kados: obviously mapping things onto a particular MARC flavour is one way to the extent that it can be done but other data will necessarily be less differentiated than MARC. |
| 19:55 | chris: and does he or she have a name? | |
| 19:56 | chris | we wont know if its a he or she until 20 weeks |
| 19:56 | thd | what is the status of storing, adding, and deleting XML records in Zebra as XML and not as MARC? |
| 19:56 | chris | thats what we originally started doing |
| 19:56 | it works | |
| 19:57 | storing marc as marc is faster to index | |
| 19:57 | so i think thats why we are doing that | |
| 19:58 | thd | chris: Oh, I had forgotten it was a speed issue for searching or conversion of the result set? |
| 19:58 | chris | i think it was for importing speed issue .. searching was the same, but much faster to import marc as marc |
| 19:58 | kados | chris: congrats! |
| 19:59 | chris | thanks kados |
| 19:59 | thd | chris: why is importing speed even a significant issue if that can always be run as a background batch process? |
| 20:00 | chris | i think its faster to update/delete too, but kados would know that for sure |
| 20:00 | thd | kados: what is the for sure answer if you are still here? |
| 20:02 | kados: Is MARC as MARC faster to update and delete in Zebra than MARC as XML or is it only importation that is faster? | |
| 20:07 | chris: did you see what I had posted earlier about true multi-MARC Koha earlier today? | |
| 20:11 | chris | hmm nope, how long ago? ill look in the logs |
| 20:15 | thd | chris: 16.58 to 17.51 Eastern US time. |
| 20:16 | chris | k |
| 20:18 | thd | chris: that is the hour just before rach said "morning gentlemen" |
| 20:18 | chris | ah yep i see it |
| 20:19 | thd | chris: most users even in academic libraries with millions of MARC records are looking for content which has no MARC records |
| 20:19 | chris | yeah |
| 20:21 | thd | chris: I still think that the OPAC should access that content in a library systems way rather than merely shunt the user over to another system such as Google or a Journal indexing database |
| 20:22 | chris | so grabbing the results and reformatting them? |
| 20:22 | thd | chris: which would mean that the OPAC should have a standard way of accessing, indexing, and formatting data in various formats. |
| 20:23 | chris | yep |
| 20:26 | thd | chris: obviously no library is going to replace Google by putting web content in Zebra but they could put metadata for even remote web sites which have very great importance to a class of users in Zebra. |
| 20:26 | chris | yep that would be usefult |
| 20:28 | thd | chris: regardless of where the data is actually stored and indexed there could be a consistent user interface for navigating between different structured record formats once they have been retrieved in a federated or meta-search. |
| 20:30 | chris | yep interface is the key |
| 20:33 | thd | chris: printed information is usually more valuable but if the user cannot be bothered to go to the shelf because he has been spoilt by full text whether it is of high or low quality the user can at least be enticed by a system that uses the metadata available for whatever resource he prefers to use. |
| 20:36 | chris: yes, metadata extraction and a consistent user interface to support even the instant gratification of the user who has forgotten that he has legs :) | |
| 20:36 | chris | :) |
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