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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:07 | indradg | kados, hi.... welcome back! |
| 12:09 | kados | indradg: thanks! |
| 12:29 | shaun | 2 hours 30 minutes... |
| 12:34 | kados | I actually have 1 hour 30 minutes :-/ |
| 12:34 | owen | Isn't it 4PM our time, kados? |
| 12:35 | indradg | kados, any luck with the phone? |
| 12:35 | kados | yea ... found it |
| 12:35 | indradg | :) |
| 12:35 | kados | owen: yep ... my mistake |
| 12:35 | just realized that | |
| 12:35 | so 2 hours 25 minutes then ;-) | |
| 12:36 | phone was in my couch | |
| 12:36 | :-) | |
| 12:38 | anyone know if anyone has successfully migrated from Sagebrush to Koha? | |
| 12:38 | I see some traffic on the list about it | |
| 12:38 | just wondering if anyone here has done it | |
| 13:00 | indradg | kados, i've an interesting news |
| 13:01 | shaun | (2 hours) |
| 13:01 | indradg | Intel India is putting together an Education tech stack based on F/OSS... i'm trying to get Koha in as the ILS component |
| 13:04 | kados, if we can get onboard then whenever an Intel business partner (practically everyone) needs to position an ILS solution they will be pointed towards the stack component ;-) | |
| 13:17 | kados | indradg: nice! |
| 13:18 | indradg: so tell me a bit more about what the Education stack will provide | |
| 13:18 | indradg: will it just list apps or will it also list providers? | |
| 13:21 | indradg | kados, both :) |
| 13:21 | "stamped" as "Intel Certified" ;-) | |
| 13:21 | kados | indradg: wow ... that's really sweet |
| 13:22 | indradg: so will you be the provider for India? | |
| 13:22 | indradg | kados, if it works out... probably yes... Redhat India has also expressed its interest |
| 13:22 | in working alongside | |
| 13:23 | kados | fantastic! |
| 13:25 | indradg: if the deal goes through write a list to #koha announcing it with links etc. | |
| 13:25 | indradg | absolutely! |
| 14:20 | slef | T-40mins |
| 14:20 | indradg | slef, did u get my mail? |
| 14:20 | slef | indradg: yes. Sorry for no reply. Busy busy. |
| 14:21 | indradg | slef, np |
| 14:21 | slef | but, hey, I'm dedicated, working while the confederations cup final is on ;-) |
| 14:21 | indradg | heh |
| 14:31 | shaun | T minus 30... tension is really building up |
| 14:39 | slef | shaun: were you copying me, or is it just innate in .uk? |
| 14:43 | shaun | i restarted my x server, you said t-40 while i was away |
| 14:51 | kados | about 9 minutes before the meeting |
| 14:51 | russter | hello |
| 14:51 | slef | hi russter |
| 14:51 | are you russ or dean? ;-) | |
| 14:52 | russ | a shared laptop |
| 14:52 | kados | add stuff to the agenda if you like |
| 14:52 | slef | what's with tinyurl all day? |
| 14:52 | kados | hey russ |
| 14:52 | slef: why do you have a problem with tinyurl? | |
| 14:53 | slef: the wiki link is very long | |
| 14:53 | slef: so it's not going to fit into the topic | |
| 14:53 | hey richard | |
| 14:53 | richard | hi |
| 14:54 | slef | kados: koha.org/wiki/?AgendAndNotes29Jun05 not that long |
| 14:54 | russ | hi richard |
| 14:54 | slef | oops, ?page= :) |
| 14:54 | and it's wrong page anyway | |
| 14:54 | ho hum | |
| 14:55 | kados | tinyurl 'just works' |
| 14:55 | slef | kados: koha.org/wiki/?page=AgendAndNotes05Jun29 not that long |
| 14:56 | rach | morning |
| 14:56 | kados | morning rach |
| 14:56 | slef | Ho hum. I trust katipo more than Gilby. |
| 14:57 | kados | trust? |
| 14:58 | T-minus 2 minutes | |
| 15:01 | slef | time, ladies and gentlemen, please! |
| 15:01 | kados | yep |
| 15:01 | ok ... let's get started | |
| 15:01 | roll call | |
| 15:01 | who's around? | |
| 15:01 | slef | MJ Ray |
| 15:02 | kados | rach'll brb (assuming the coffee machine isn't broken ;-)) |
| 15:03 | ok ... we'll give rach a sec | |
| 15:03 | in the meantime ... | |
| 15:03 | koha.org/wiki/?page=AgendAndNotes05Jun29 | |
| 15:03 | anything to add to the agenda? | |
| 15:04 | rach | back |
| 15:04 | russ | most of the stuff i would like to talk about falls under number 3 the audience |
| 15:05 | kados | ok |
| 15:05 | but let's start at Russ's report | |
| 15:05 | unless you'd like to start elsewhere rach | |
| 15:06 | rach | nope |
| 15:06 | kados | I know everyone hasn't looked at the wireframes because the views on those files is under 5 |
| 15:07 | russ | they only went up about 12 hours ago :-) |
| 15:07 | kados | :-) |
| 15:07 | russ | i would like to get reactions to the objective and scope |
| 15:07 | http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]bredev/scope.html | |
| 15:07 | kados | yep |
| 15:08 | I think it outlines nicely our previous discussions | |
| 15:08 | by 'Open CMS' what do you mean russ? | |
| 15:08 | rach | http://www.opencms.org/opencms/en/ |
| 15:08 | shaun | http://www.opencms.org/opencms/en/ |
| 15:08 | rach | it's a product |
| 15:08 | shaun | snap |
| 15:08 | rach | :-) |
| 15:08 | kados | ahh |
| 15:09 | slef | bah, why does no-one give these products meaningful names like phpesp any more? ;-) |
| 15:09 | kados | heh |
| 15:10 | rach | :-) |
| 15:10 | slef | I wondered where librarians fit into the developers/users split |
| 15:11 | rach | aren't they users? |
| 15:11 | indradg | slef, bridge |
| 15:11 | hdl | Is there a comparison between openCMS and MAMBO ? |
| 15:11 | russ | i must admit i havent used it, but chris and richard did a good sell job on me |
| 15:11 | kados | yea ... I'd say users |
| 15:11 | hdl: Mambo would be my choice | |
| 15:11 | hdl | I know ;) |
| 15:11 | That's why I asked. | |
| 15:11 | kados | :-) |
| 15:11 | shaun | imo mambo is not as powerful as opencms - not that i know everything about them but mambo is so much simpler |
| 15:11 | slef | translators were the other group, but they're a group within developers clearly |
| 15:12 | kados | I like Mambo because it's very modular and easy to admin |
| 15:12 | and the community's really huge | |
| 15:12 | rach | we're looking at openCMS for some of our bigger CMS projects, so have some vested interest in putting the effort in to get it working for Koha |
| 15:12 | kados | ok ... as long as someone's got vested interest |
| 15:12 | :-) | |
| 15:13 | rach | and to make sure it's good :-) |
| 15:14 | slef | Is there any objection to trying openCMS? |
| 15:14 | kados | not from me |
| 15:14 | slef | cool. Any more questions for russ? |
| 15:14 | hdl | for me neither. |
| 15:14 | russ | yep the audience |
| 15:15 | kados | I'm a bit concerned about the documentation pages on koha.org |
| 15:15 | I think it's going to be a pain to maintain two doc sites | |
| 15:15 | slef | russ: what about the audience? |
| 15:15 | kados | one on koha.org and one on kohadocs.org |
| 15:15 | russ | documentation pages? |
| 15:16 | my view is that the bulk of the site is for people new to koha or considering koha | |
| 15:16 | with an area for the community which acts as a portal to teh community resources | |
| 15:16 | i think we discussed this last time | |
| 15:16 | kados | right ... sorry ... I missread the map |
| 15:17 | slef | discussed what? kohadocs? |
| 15:17 | kados | I thought there was a documentation section listed on the map the first time I looked at it |
| 15:18 | slef | kados: the current map is linked from the tinyurl in the /topic ;-) |
| 15:18 | russ | my latest version of the site map - http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]edev/sitemap.html |
| 15:18 | kados | also ... Koha team should be a bit expanded |
| 15:18 | to include all the key folks | |
| 15:18 | shaun | what purpose does Koha team serve? |
| 15:18 | rach | that project team are the "jobs" for making the site |
| 15:18 | indradg | pulls the Koha cart ;) |
| 15:18 | kados | shaun: credentials of the key players |
| 15:18 | rach | rather than everyone involved in koha |
| 15:18 | kados | shaun: lends credibility to the code base |
| 15:19 | rach | do you men this - http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]/projectteam.html |
| 15:19 | russ | no |
| 15:19 | http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz[…]nt/koha-team.html | |
| 15:19 | under the content | |
| 15:19 | rach | or this - http://www.koha.org/about/people.html |
| 15:19 | slef | rach: see russ's URL |
| 15:19 | kados | yea ... that last one |
| 15:20 | slef | rach: clear? |
| 15:20 | kados | so I'd like it to look kinda like Debian's "organization" page: |
| 15:20 | http://www.debian.org/intro/organization | |
| 15:20 | rach | yep |
| 15:20 | slef | kados: but be less of a work of fiction, presumably? |
| 15:21 | kados | ya |
| 15:21 | indradg | sounds good |
| 15:21 | shaun | how does that fit in with keeping product and community pages separate then? |
| 15:21 | kados | this isn't community pages |
| 15:21 | it's information about each of the key players | |
| 15:21 | maybe even brief bios | |
| 15:22 | to lend credibility to the project's developers | |
| 15:22 | so it looks more like an organized methodical approach to software development | |
| 15:22 | russ | my only concern is that we start increasing the amount of content to be maintained |
| 15:22 | kados | sure ... but those of us with a vested interest would gladly maintain the content ;-) |
| 15:22 | slef | If it's for new users, how will it support l10n? (l10n = localisation, 10 letters between l and n, but requires localisation itself!) |
| 15:22 | russ | i was thinking that we could identify the prim contacts |
| 15:23 | in this section and that the community pages we could do something | |
| 15:23 | rach | so we want enough people to show there are a good solid number of people involved |
| 15:23 | russ | but i didnt write that down |
| 15:23 | rach | but not everyone on the mailing list :-) |
| 15:23 | kados | rach: exactly |
| 15:23 | rach: make it look almost like a company bio page | |
| 15:24 | rach | yep - management basically |
| 15:24 | kados | rach: maybe even with thumbs etc. |
| 15:24 | exactly | |
| 15:24 | russ | ok as long as it clear what it takes to get onto that page |
| 15:24 | i dont have a problem | |
| 15:24 | slef | thumbs? |
| 15:24 | kados | folks are scared of open source and free software because it seems like anyone can control what code gets into the project |
| 15:24 | thumbnail photos | |
| 15:24 | indradg | russ, abt more content... how abt a Media link -- all the press / media coverage that Koha gets globally? |
| 15:25 | kados | indradg: good point |
| 15:25 | rach | yep - if we know about it now we link it in |
| 15:25 | indradg | rite |
| 15:25 | slef | why would anyone want photos of our thumbnails? |
| 15:25 | kados | hehe |
| 15:25 | rach | they say a lot about your diet slef |
| 15:25 | indradg | :P |
| 15:26 | russ | indrag - could that be a sub category of news? |
| 15:26 | indradg | russ, cud be |
| 15:26 | slef | rach: mine damage walls |
| 15:26 | russ | i think it would be easiest to maintain through some type of news engine |
| 15:26 | indradg | russ, but a more prominent link perhaps would be grabbing more eyeballs |
| 15:27 | kados | anything else about russ's design notes? |
| 15:27 | rach | On the getting people to contribute front, as slef has said, clear instructions/entreaties to people on how to send in news for the site |
| 15:27 | and i suspect a regular nag on the koha list | |
| 15:27 | kados | yep |
| 15:28 | ok ... moving along: | |
| 15:28 | 1. Is the site to be multilingual? | |
| 15:28 | I think yes | |
| 15:28 | slef | Oh, by the way, will opencms be running on mysql and a free software java runtime? |
| 15:28 | russ | yep |
| 15:28 | shaun | what will become of koha-fr.org then? |
| 15:28 | russ | sorry that was an anwer to slef |
| 15:28 | kados | shaun: that's a commercial site |
| 15:28 | shaun: not really the same thing at all | |
| 15:29 | IMO | |
| 15:29 | (even if it is .org ... erp) | |
| 15:29 | hdl | IMO : It is not only commerciial. |
| 15:29 | kados | right |
| 15:29 | hdl | :P |
| 15:29 | indradg | i agree |
| 15:29 | rach | that will be up to paul et al |
| 15:30 | slef | kados: commercial, instead of what? |
| 15:30 | hdl | It is a french official site for Koha. Both commercial and news... |
| 15:30 | kados | so we'll have to setup a translation method for the site and decide what languages to support |
| 15:30 | rach | It would be fantastic for koha.org to be multilingual, but hdl do you know how much work that would be? |
| 15:31 | hdl | Maybe we could think that English would be the base, just like Koha dev |
| 15:31 | And then french would translate. | |
| 15:32 | The pb is when french provides some links ;) | |
| 15:32 | i.e Login Pratique talked about koha. | |
| 15:32 | slef | rach: cxiuj parolistoj de aliaj lingvoj scias // all speakers of other languages know. |
| 15:32 | hdl | Login Pratique is a french revue... |
| 15:32 | slef | ok, exaggeration ;-) |
| 15:33 | hdl | But hindou could also take part. |
| 15:33 | kados | so we'll do it in English ... then think about translations after the fact? ... does openCMS support multiple languages in the templating system? |
| 15:33 | russ | no idea |
| 15:33 | we will have to look into it | |
| 15:33 | hdl | It is a concern for me... |
| 15:34 | kados | Mambo does :-/ |
| 15:34 | http://mamboforge.net/projects/mambelfish/ | |
| 15:34 | ok ... let's look into that ... and we'll decide later on koha-devel | |
| 15:35 | moving along | |
| 15:35 | 2. Will the site conform to xhtml1/CSS2/WCAG? | |
| 15:35 | rach | yep - sorry client crisis happening as well |
| 15:35 | russ | WCAG is the accessibility guidelines? |
| 15:35 | rach | but I suspect not being able to would be a blocker for opencms |
| 15:35 | kados | yep ... probably |
| 15:35 | shaun | i will make it comply. |
| 15:35 | slef | russ: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG |
| 15:35 | (yes) | |
| 15:36 | shaun++ | |
| 15:36 | kados | shaun: great |
| 15:36 | don't really understand #3 | |
| 15:36 | 3 Developers/Users or Programmers(+Translators)/Librarians/Users? | |
| 15:36 | rach? | |
| 15:37 | rach | sorry - distraction, site just gone live with no warning, imagine one of those submarine scenes with red flashing lights |
| 15:37 | shaun | that's if i get round to it... i only told russ, i have exams for a while, but 3 weeks time i have my 2 month break and it should be polished and running within the first week |
| 15:37 | rach | and everyone running around |
| 15:38 | slef | kados: I think that's been covered. |
| 15:38 | rach | OK compliance- yes up to shaun |
| 15:38 | shaun | woo, responsibility |
| 15:38 | heh | |
| 15:38 | kados | rach: has it been covered? |
| 15:38 | rach | :-) |
| 15:38 | slef | shaun: woo, culpability ;-) |
| 15:38 | kados | heh |
| 15:39 | shaun | :D |
| 15:39 | kados | if 3 is covered then ... |
| 15:39 | 4 Is there a site backup plan? | |
| 15:39 | russ | so shaun - you cant do anything till when? |
| 15:39 | rach | um where is the agenda? |
| 15:40 | shaun | i can do it, but only around an hour a day, up until 3 weeks time at about 7 hours a day |
| 15:40 | kados | rach ... lood at the topic |
| 15:40 | look even | |
| 15:40 | rach | Right - 3 is the audience question |
| 15:40 | and yes I think we've probably covered it | |
| 15:40 | kados | ok ... so backups? |
| 15:40 | mirroring? | |
| 15:40 | what exactly do we mean by backups? | |
| 15:40 | shaun | ah that answered my question? |
| 15:40 | kados | ( I didn't write that question ) |
| 15:40 | indradg | btw, which version of MySQL is going to get used with OpenCMS? |
| 15:41 | rach | we mirror the server |
| 15:41 | kados | ok ... so that should take care of the backups already right? |
| 15:41 | moving along: | |
| 15:41 | Interface Design | |
| 15:41 | rach | and at the moment have a backup because we're using kea as well |
| 15:41 | kados | Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates |
| 15:41 | slef | kados: as in, let's say NZ or whereever it's hosting is hit by an iceberg and sinks. Do we have to rewrite koha.org? ;-) |
| 15:41 | kados | I don't have a link |
| 15:42 | rach | which is on a sepereate server |
| 15:42 | kados | slef: in that even I suspect rewriting koha.org will be the least of our worries ;-) |
| 15:42 | hdl | maybe could be backedup on koha-fr.org ??? I would have to talk with paul |
| 15:42 | kados | s/even/event/ |
| 15:42 | hdl | sorry... |
| 15:42 | kados | I'd be willing to host a mirror as well |
| 15:42 | hdl | already done. |
| 15:43 | kados | Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates |
| 15:43 | i dont' have a link | |
| 15:43 | rach: can you show us these? | |
| 15:43 | (in their current form) | |
| 15:43 | rach | I can - but i'll need to msg you individually |
| 15:43 | it'll take you behind the sceens of the rangitikei library, and I don't want everyone able to get in | |
| 15:44 | kados | right |
| 15:44 | rach | oh actually = http://opac.rangitikei.katipo.co.nz/ |
| 15:44 | the opac has been done I think, which gives the genearl idea | |
| 15:45 | kados | yikes ... that's a little _too_ liquid IMO |
| 15:45 | search on 'test' to see what I mean | |
| 15:45 | russ | what do you mean by liquid? |
| 15:45 | rach | think the difference between a wiki, and a webpage |
| 15:45 | ah bad data - search on fish | |
| 15:46 | kados | russ: the content controls the width of the columns |
| 15:46 | owen | Yeah, that 'Diacritic Test record' is a killer! |
| 15:46 | slef | kados: web is not print. |
| 15:47 | rach | back to backups/redundancy - we should (appendages crossed) have a server in san fran going in the next month, and we'll be planning to have a copy of koha.org on that as an anycast |
| 15:47 | focus people | |
| 15:47 | the point being, no colour | |
| 15:47 | little design | |
| 15:47 | all "functional" is the best word I can come up with | |
| 15:48 | these aren't necessarily the finished templates, we're still working on them | |
| 15:48 | but there intention is to be "working wireframes" | |
| 15:49 | if you guys hate the idea, that's cool, we can just use them for ourselves :-) | |
| 15:49 | kados | i don't hate the b/w idea |
| 15:49 | I actually really like it | |
| 15:49 | owen | My concern is that there's still too much presentation in those templates |
| 15:50 | div ids, classes, etc. | |
| 15:50 | kados | well ... it may depend on what they're for |
| 15:50 | slef | seems to work OK in lynx, although search results page isn't valid xhtml |
| 15:50 | rach | we are a bit lazy so we have probably not cleaned out the code as much as we would have if we'd writen them from scratch |
| 15:50 | owen | Those things don't matter to a programmer, because they control appearance |
| 15:50 | kados | are these 'programmer templates' or 'client first view templates'? |
| 15:50 | rach | we would use them as both to be realistic |
| 15:50 | kados | hmmm ... that's where I worry about them |
| 15:51 | rach | so we put in new functionality/the mods the client needs so that they can see them |
| 15:51 | kados | for the reasons owen cited |
| 15:51 | rach | before we do the graphic design |
| 15:52 | shaun | kados: is there anything on the agenda for reskinning? |
| 15:52 | rach | but I suspect the extra code in there at the moment comes under that "lazy/hurry" category |
| 15:52 | kados | shaun: I don't know what you mean by that |
| 15:53 | shaun | we were talking a while ago about CSS enhancements to NPL - make it a little more attractive and use it as the default (non-programmer) template set |
| 15:53 | kados | owen do you have any examples of what a programmer template would look like in your scheme? |
| 15:53 | shaun: just a sec | |
| 15:53 | russ: sounds good ... look forward to it | |
| 15:53 | owen | I worked up a couple examples very hurredly this afternoon. Let me find the urls |
| 15:53 | rach | cool owen |
| 15:54 | owen | Let me preface by stating what my conception for these is: I wanted to have something that was completely minimal, so that programmers could use them to work on developing new features |
| 15:55 | And so that template writers could very easily see what changed in functionality without having to sift through presentation | |
| 15:55 | rach | as long as it's something that the clients can look at so that they can check that the new functionality does what they asked :-) |
| 15:55 | that might be a bit of a mindset/work style difference | |
| 15:55 | owen | Sorry, rach--this isn't for clients! |
| 15:55 | This is for programmers and template-writers | |
| 15:55 | rach | is that when we do new functionality, we have to show it to the clients |
| 15:55 | because we;re doing it for someone | |
| 15:56 | that's the "service company" difference maybe | |
| 15:56 | kados | rach right ... but you're also working with a programmer who is not coding the html right? |
| 15:56 | rach | yep |
| 15:56 | kados | so that's where owen's idea may just speed up the communication between the two |
| 15:56 | because every programmer will be able to add this stuff to a template | |
| 15:57 | owen | Here's my simple example, just to show just how minimal I mean: http://66.213.78.40/temp/members-home.html (not a real Koha page, just the html example) |
| 15:57 | kados | then your template designer can easily see what it is and can work on a design proto for a client |
| 15:57 | owen | And... http://66.213.78.40/temp/member.html |
| 15:58 | Template: http://66.213.78.40/temp/members-home.txt and http://66.213.78.40/temp/member.txt | |
| 15:58 | shaun | i know where you live :D |
| 15:58 | rach | Ok - I think it needs to be enough that someone testing it can actually use the site - so someone testing for the programmer, you don't want to have to have everything put into a new set of templates before you can verify something works |
| 15:58 | so you need some basic navigation | |
| 15:59 | owen | The problem with that is that my idea of basic navigation is different from others |
| 15:59 | rach | and enough presentation that you can "read" the page - so for me the results could probably go lines in the table |
| 15:59 | and the heading should be a heading | |
| 16:00 | but generally yep owen, I'm not adverse to what you've got there | |
| 16:00 | owen | My thought was that navigation and other links were template-writer decisions, and that what should remain is only what is relevant to the task of that particular page--whatever functionality is being driven by the perl script itself |
| 16:00 | rach | but it is too hard to test if you have nothing |
| 16:01 | kados | rach I think the main difference here is that you're used to having to explain functions visually to clients and owen is frustrated with having to wade through tons of extra html just to fine a few minor features |
| 16:01 | rach | sure - I like his html :-) |
| 16:01 | owen | So here's the real question (and not all the right people are here to answer it): Is this enough for a programmer to test with? |
| 16:01 | rach | but I think they have more than just the programmer audience on reflection, I think you need someone else to test your work |
| 16:02 | I know for example, that I test for chris | |
| 16:02 | kados | rach: well ... when I concieved the 'programmer templates' I was thinking about two groups: programmers and interface designers |
| 16:02 | rach | and that's not enough for me |
| 16:02 | to do that | |
| 16:02 | with confidence | |
| 16:03 | kados | I guess I didn't realize that we'd have a third group: testers |
| 16:03 | rach | I would be constantly asking him for URLS |
| 16:03 | which would be a pain in the arse | |
| 16:03 | frankly | |
| 16:03 | chris | darn tootin |
| 16:03 | hehe | |
| 16:03 | kados | so the question is: where do the testers start looking at stuff? |
| 16:03 | before or after the template designers get ahold of it? | |
| 16:03 | rach | I think you want them to look as the functionality is going in |
| 16:03 | chris | usually if my script doesnt internal server error |
| 16:03 | rach | like I've been doing with genji |
| 16:03 | chris | then i pass it on to ppl to test |
| 16:04 | (well i check it a bit more than that) | |
| 16:04 | kados | (heh) |
| 16:04 | chris | but thats the general idea, if im confident its returning the results i think it should be, i get someone else to check |
| 16:05 | kados | right |
| 16:05 | rach | but I think the way we work, is different to how you'd work in a library |
| 16:05 | kados | yep |
| 16:05 | rach | so how you and owen work at npl is completely different, to how we work |
| 16:05 | kados | yep |
| 16:05 | rach | because you're both the developers and the client in a practical sense |
| 16:05 | so you can be much more self contained | |
| 16:06 | kados | well ... we weren't even really thinkin from the 'client' perspective here |
| 16:06 | just from the programmer -> template design | |
| 16:06 | that transition is very tenuous currently | |
| 16:06 | owen | Here's the question on the table: will it make it simpler for template-writers to update their custom templates if they have a programmer template to refer to |
| 16:06 | chris | the problem is |
| 16:06 | in our work | |
| 16:06 | its goes template->programming | |
| 16:07 | ie rach draws pictures, bob makes some html | |
| 16:07 | and i freak out trying to make it work | |
| 16:07 | kados | hehe |
| 16:07 | chris | :-) |
| 16:07 | rach | :-) |
| 16:07 | shaun | heh |
| 16:07 | rach | to be fair, bob's been known to freak out too :-) |
| 16:07 | chris | :) |
| 16:07 | shaun | sorry, i'm being kicked off, i have exams tomorrow, night all |
| 16:07 | rach | good luck |
| 16:08 | kados | nite shaun |
| 16:08 | chris | cya shaun |
| 16:08 | shaun | thanks rach |
| 16:08 | cya | |
| 16:08 | kados | ok ... well here's the prob |
| 16:08 | currently we only have one alternate template in Koha | |
| 16:08 | NPL | |
| 16:08 | and the default one's a mess | |
| 16:09 | I think that's because it's too darn hard to maintain a templating system | |
| 16:09 | rach | yep |
| 16:09 | kados | so maybe we should leave the internal design processes alone |
| 16:09 | katipo can have their template-programmer design process | |
| 16:09 | but when it comes to committing stuff | |
| 16:09 | you commit using a minimal programmer tempate | |
| 16:09 | (and you maintain your own templates for your clients) | |
| 16:10 | chris | yep |
| 16:10 | kados | and everyong agrees to play fair |
| 16:10 | chris | as long as we have one default set for ppl to use that works |
| 16:10 | kados | and commit to the programmer templates as well as their own templates |
| 16:10 | slef | alternatively, maybe this isn't the right template system for koha |
| 16:10 | kados | right ... and the interface designer's job is to maintain a working default tempalte |
| 16:10 | slef: explain | |
| 16:10 | rach | what I was thinking - was to give owen our templates, and he could further emasculate them if that's helpful - just so they are underway |
| 16:11 | slef | kados: there are various alternative ways of templating, all the way up to xslt, or there are even other ways to use HTML::Template |
| 16:12 | kados | hehe |
| 16:12 | rach | mmm possibly :-) |
| 16:12 | slef | People maintain dozens of skins for some web applications, but we can't keep >2 working koha ones in the distribution? What's the blocker? |
| 16:12 | rach | but I was aiming at "reduce |
| 16:13 | chris | ownership |
| 16:13 | kados | slef: I think it's the problem of bloat in the default templates |
| 16:13 | owen | slef: maybe it depends on what you mean by 'skin' |
| 16:13 | Some web apps just mean 'color change' | |
| 16:13 | kados | we also dont' have too many designers in our community |
| 16:13 | design teams I mean | |
| 16:14 | slef | do we have >2? |
| 16:15 | kados | I think so ... |
| 16:15 | rach | we might now have 3 |
| 16:15 | kados | paul ... katipo ... npl ... liblime |
| 16:15 | 4 ;-) | |
| 16:15 | rach | and shaun? |
| 16:15 | kados | yep ... |
| 16:15 | so 5 then | |
| 16:16 | 5 skins would be really sweet for 2.4 | |
| 16:16 | owen | But only two who have committed anything so far |
| 16:16 | kados | right ... liblime's templates are unmanagable at this point |
| 16:16 | rach | and I think the "focus" of the various teams is a bit different - so if we all did one, you'd get 5 somewhat different libraries I susepct? |
| 16:16 | thd- | I have also been working on some changes to templates. |
| 16:16 | kados | so six then ;-) |
| 16:16 | rach | so too many cooks perhaps is the problem |
| 16:16 | slef | thd-: what do you find the most awkward part of making templates? |
| 16:17 | kados | I think there are plenty of examples of projects with lots of skins that look quite different |
| 16:17 | mambo, squirrelmail, ... | |
| 16:17 | thd- | slef: The values to enter into the templates require changes in the program itself |
| 16:17 | kados | the key is keeping the changes managable |
| 16:18 | rach | so thd you're wanting to change bits of function? |
| 16:19 | thd- | rach: yes, which requires changes in templates and the program code |
| 16:19 | slef | thd-: not enough data available to templates, or preformatted data, or what? |
| 16:19 | thd- | slef: the proper variables have to be available to the templates |
| 16:20 | slef: additional variables | |
| 16:21 | owen | Okay, so here's a good example. thd makes a change to a script, and adds the new variable to his custom set of templates |
| 16:21 | How does it get into the default template? | |
| 16:21 | How does it get into the other custom templates? | |
| 16:22 | chris | it wont unless he tells someone |
| 16:22 | thd- | :) |
| 16:22 | rach | how do we decide wether it's something that should be in the default/other templates |
| 16:23 | kados | heh |
| 16:23 | rach | that's what the release manager decides |
| 16:23 | slef | Do we have a template dictionary? |
| 16:23 | rach | at the moment I think |
| 16:23 | kados | right ... that's my job |
| 16:23 | right now he can commit it to HEAD | |
| 16:23 | because I've specified that anything goes in HEAD atm | |
| 16:23 | owen | I'm suggesting that when someone makes a change to a script, and adds a variable, for instance, they change the programmer template (and their own custom template if applicable) |
| 16:23 | slef | That is, a list of which scripts offer which variables to which templates? |
| 16:23 | owen | Then other template writers can monitor the programmer template for changes, and update their own templates |
| 16:23 | kados | that's the key |
| 16:24 | IMO | |
| 16:24 | if everyone agrees to play nice and commit their new features to a minimal programmer template | |
| 16:24 | then maintaining templates becomes a snap | |
| 16:24 | chris | or even just tell ppl (the koha-devel list) what you did and why |
| 16:25 | owen | The programmer template could expose ALL variables returned by the script, so that template-writers could pick and choose what to display |
| 16:25 | rach | sounds like a reasonable plan |
| 16:25 | hdl | But that means that you will have always TWO templates at least to maintain... if I understand ? |
| 16:25 | thd- | where is the magical programmer template? |
| 16:25 | kados | yea ... but the programmer one is really easy |
| 16:25 | rach | in production at the moment :-) |
| 16:26 | owen | hdl--only if you're maintaining your own custom template |
| 16:26 | kados | right ... the other side of this is that if I'm developing something |
| 16:26 | chris | we only have about 12 to maintain |
| 16:26 | :) | |
| 16:26 | kados | I can just commit all my changes and do my testing on the programmer template |
| 16:26 | hdl | But french, spanish, and ohters... |
| 16:27 | slef | chris: no shared code? |
| 16:27 | chris | clients are funny, you find they often want their site to look like their site :) |
| 16:28 | hdl | Why programer's template shouldn't be custom template ready ??? |
| 16:28 | chris | to be fair, its only an issue when we upgrade someone |
| 16:28 | thd- | chris: as they should be expected to even if their site is not optimal |
| 16:28 | chris | yep |
| 16:29 | but i think, if there is one place where you can track the changes to templates (the minimal/programmer ones) | |
| 16:29 | it will make changing all our custom ones much easier | |
| 16:30 | rach | hdl - what do you mean by "custom template ready"? |
| 16:30 | chris | html::template is great cos it gives you lots of freedom, conversely html::template sucks because it gives you lots of freedom :) |
| 16:30 | rach | do you mean with CSS/style tags etc in it so you could just apply a style if you wanted to? |
| 16:30 | hdl | rach like having div and blocks and so on... prepared.. |
| 16:31 | And with a good CSS... | |
| 16:31 | owen | That's what the default template should aspire to be |
| 16:31 | rach | yes - that was the middle ground we were half aiming for |
| 16:32 | kind of a blank canvas waiting to be painted :-) | |
| 16:32 | but really we were being lazy and not taking all the tags out I suspect | |
| 16:33 | so I think we might be saying, we need a new default template as well? | |
| 16:33 | thd- | Another issue I have with existing templates is lack of cross-browser compatibility |
| 16:33 | rach | it is bad |
| 16:33 | kados | so we need to: |
| 16:33 | create some programmer templates | |
| 16:33 | start working on design for default templates | |
| 16:34 | come up with a policy for programmers to commit new features to programmer templates and not to default templates | |
| 16:35 | rach | so maybe our ones are more the default template? |
| 16:35 | owen | There's no reason the default template can't look good |
| 16:36 | It's just that it's important for the presentation to be separated into CSS as much as possible | |
| 16:36 | That's what makes it custom template ready | |
| 16:37 | thd- | owen: without using css in such a way that it breaks for nonstandard browsers |
| 16:37 | rach | except that perhaps the fact that we're even having this conversation means we have different definitions of "looks good" :-) |
| 16:37 | owen | rach, I don't think so at all |
| 16:38 | rach | really? |
| 16:39 | owen | I think the goals you have for your minimal template are just different from the goals I have for the programmer template |
| 16:39 | We're talking about different things | |
| 16:39 | kados | so here's how I envision katipo's workflow with owen's scheme |
| 16:39 | 1. design templates/features | |
| 16:39 | 2. code html | |
| 16:40 | 3. chris madly gets it to work | |
| 16:40 | 4. client approves it | |
| 16:40 | slef | owen's is a testing tool, rach's is a blank canvas waiting to be painted? |
| 16:40 | kados | 5. chris commits katipo templates to cvs |
| 16:40 | rach | well we test then paint :-) |
| 16:40 | kados | 6. chris commits minimal templates to cvs |
| 16:40 | chris | we dont really have katipo templates |
| 16:40 | but i can do the minimal bit | |
| 16:40 | kados | right ... |
| 16:41 | chris | we could have a go |
| 16:41 | we end up with a template set per client | |
| 16:41 | kados | right ... |
| 16:41 | rach | we have done templates for various things - shows etc, but they are usually not complete |
| 16:41 | kados | don't you find that hard to maintain? |
| 16:41 | there's a lot of duplication of work here | |
| 16:41 | chris | yes and no |
| 16:41 | kados | I'm going to have the same prob as I gain clients |
| 16:41 | chris | if they all wanted, colours styles changed |
| 16:42 | we could do it with one set and css | |
| 16:42 | kados | ideal scenerio |
| 16:42 | chris | but they go .. oh hey, lets put this thing over here |
| 16:42 | rach | we tend to have one set of intranet templates |
| 16:42 | but not opac | |
| 16:42 | but even intranet, we start out the same, but they change | |
| 16:42 | kados | 7. owen integrates changes into default templates |
| 16:42 | chris | yeah, intranet is generally the same for everyone .. but different colours |
| 16:42 | kados | (forgot that step ;-)) |
| 16:42 | right | |
| 16:43 | rach | which is why we're keen on something that we can start working with them from |
| 16:43 | kados | so rach ... I think the point is that it'll be easier for katipo to commit cheir changes to the main koha cvs |
| 16:44 | and it won't affect your internal workflow | |
| 16:44 | it just adds one extra step for chris | |
| 16:44 | the sharing bit | |
| 16:44 | and that makes it easier for the ID to maintain the official templates | |
| 16:44 | rach | so you're thinking we should comit our templates? |
| 16:45 | kados | well ... that's a seperate issue really |
| 16:45 | I think it'd be great if you could commit all your client tempaltes | |
| 16:45 | (OPAC at least) | |
| 16:45 | rach | genearlly we can't |
| 16:45 | kados | so we could really show the variety of options available |
| 16:45 | chris | im not sure how useful that would be |
| 16:45 | rach | http://opac.eeo.katipo.co.nz/c[…]koha/opac-main.pl |
| 16:45 | for example | |
| 16:45 | chris | they end up very very client specific |
| 16:45 | rach | it's all their stuff, we can't comit it |
| 16:46 | chris | http://library.lgnz.co.nz/cgi-[…]ha/opac-search.pl |
| 16:46 | kados | gotcha |
| 16:47 | chris | but we could do our tidied up intranet templates |
| 16:47 | when we finish them | |
| 16:47 | rach | we can comit a plain version, and our intranet ones though |
| 16:47 | kados | sweet |
| 16:47 | chris | and i dont mind doing the change to the minimal templates |
| 16:47 | kados | well like I said that's a separate issue really |
| 16:47 | cool | |
| 16:47 | so does everyone agree about the minimal tempaltes? | |
| 16:47 | does anyone disagree? | |
| 16:47 | :-) | |
| 16:48 | rach | does everyone give up so they can go to bed :-) |
| 16:48 | kados | hehe |
| 16:48 | right ... | |
| 16:48 | thd- | I missed the formal definition of minimal templates |
| 16:48 | kados | ok ... I guess we've covered everything |
| 16:48 | slef | I like minimal, but wait to see how it evolves. |
| 16:48 | kados | thd-: it's in the log ;-) |
| 16:48 | rach | yep I think so slef |
| 16:48 | kados | agreed |
| 16:48 | so ... meeting over then eh? | |
| 16:49 | rach | yep |
| 16:49 | chris | it will only work if everyone plays nice |
| 16:49 | thd- | I coud not read the log fast enough :) |
| 16:49 | chris | but then, so does most everything |
| 16:49 | kados | chris: right ... that's key |
| 16:51 | thd- | Even paul-away is away? |
| 16:52 | rach | I think so - he's not on hte list |
| 16:54 | thd- | chris: aside from the most obvious the guidelines need to be clear for how to play nice with templates |
| 16:55 | rach | cheers |
| 16:56 | hdl | thx. |
| 16:59 | slef | thanks all |
| 17:02 | rach | cheers slef |
| 18:21 | ryanbisd | Im thinking about switching our library systems over to Koha... |
| 18:21 | but I need to find out some answers.. | |
| 18:21 | maybe you guys can help | |
| 18:23 | rach | we can try |
| 18:23 | and I'm non technical | |
| 18:23 | but I'll help if I can | |
| 18:23 | ryanbisd | thanks... haha.. |
| 18:24 | Have you heard of the Follet library system? | |
| 18:24 | used mainly in schools | |
| 18:24 | rach | nope |
| 18:24 | ryanbisd | we use that.. and already have our users and barcodes generated |
| 18:24 | rach | so you're a school? |
| 18:24 | ryanbisd | can I import those into this? |
| 18:24 | rach | yes |
| 18:24 | with a little qualification | |
| 18:25 | what are your tech skills? | |
| 18:25 | ryanbisd | I mean, I have some linux ecperience.. |
| 18:25 | we have a DB guy.. | |
| 18:25 | he would probably be doing the actual conversions. | |
| 18:26 | rach | if you can get the data out of your current system in some sensible fashion |
| 18:26 | ie tab delimited or similar | |
| 18:26 | then you can import it into koha/mysql | |
| 18:26 | it's usually getting it out of your current system that is the problem, not getting it into koha | |
| 18:26 | ryanbisd | haha, right. |
| 18:26 | Im not sure how the old system works | |
| 18:26 | Im just now heading up the project | |
| 18:27 | but Koah looks pretty robust | |
| 18:29 | rach | koha still tends to need some skilled help to get it all working nicely - because it's still developing pretty rapidly |
| 18:29 | so having a db guy is good :-) | |
| 18:29 | and being able to get onto IRC is good :-) | |
| 18:30 | are you in the USA? | |
| 18:30 | or northern hemisphere anyway? | |
| 18:30 | ryanbisd | Yeah.... |
| 18:30 | Im close to Dallas | |
| 18:30 | you? | |
| 18:31 | rach | Wellington New Zealand |
| 18:31 | ryanbisd | awesome... |
| 18:31 | let me ask you this... is the admin side of it GUI, or commandline? | |
| 18:31 | or both? | |
| 18:31 | rach | so you might want to come on a bit earlier - and you'll catch folks from the north |
| 18:31 | gui | |
| 18:32 | web interface | |
| 18:32 | ryanbisd | yeah..... I got put on this project today.... toward the end of the day |
| 18:32 | rach | you're right on the ball then :-) |
| 18:32 | ryanbisd | im at home now just checking it out |
| 18:32 | its probably going to save the district about 100k | |
| 18:32 | rach | cool |
| 18:33 | NPL reckon they save about 10K a year | |
| 18:33 | ryanbisd | ? |
| 18:33 | rach | as well, which adds up |
| 18:33 | ryanbisd | NPL? |
| 18:33 | rach | um, public library in ohio |
| 18:33 | ryanbisd | ahh.. |
| 18:33 | cool. | |
| 18:33 | well, the other thing is.. something called SIF | |
| 18:33 | rach | you might need to go into a bit more detail on that |
| 18:34 | what is it? | |
| 18:34 | what sort of files do you send? | |
| 18:34 | ryanbisd | basically, we are mandated by the state.... |
| 18:34 | it.. basically links all our DBs together.. | |
| 18:34 | so when a student is enrolled, his userid is sent to the library, and the attendance and so on... | |
| 18:35 | keeps everything automated... Im just wondering if I can corelate this with that.. | |
| 18:35 | rach | do you know what it really is? like is it xml, or something entirely different? |
| 18:35 | ryanbisd | I have no idea to tell you the truth.. |
| 18:35 | I will be finding out more about it in the next few days. | |
| 18:36 | http://www.mlasolutions.com/products/sifagent.htm | |
| 18:38 | chris | hi ryan |
| 18:38 | ryanbisd | hello... whats up? |
| 18:39 | kados | ryanbisd: hi there |
| 18:39 | chris | just in regards to SIF |
| 18:39 | kados | ryanbisd: welcome to Koha |
| 18:39 | ryanbisd | Thanks you.. |
| 18:39 | I mean, Thank you... (singular) | |
| 18:39 | chris | we are working on getting NCIP (which is pretty much the same thing) into koha for version 2.4 |
| 18:39 | thats right isnt it kados? | |
| 18:39 | ryanbisd | is there anyway to have it run with sif? |
| 18:39 | kados | hmmm ... |
| 18:40 | I think you're thinking of SIP | |
| 18:40 | and SIP2 | |
| 18:40 | SIF is different | |
| 18:40 | ryanbisd | If not, then I dont know if we can use it. |
| 18:40 | chris | ahh |
| 18:40 | duh me | |
| 18:40 | kados | ryanbisd: so here's how this works |
| 18:40 | if the feature doesn't exist | |
| 18:40 | you can sponser it | |
| 18:40 | ryanbisd | hahaha... |
| 18:40 | kados | and still save money compared to your license fees |
| 18:40 | no joke | |
| 18:41 | that's what NPL did | |
| 18:41 | ryanbisd | right... |
| 18:41 | kados | and we've got several programmers here |
| 18:41 | who'd love to be working on Koha | |
| 18:41 | ryanbisd | Well, I just started looking into this project today. |
| 18:41 | kados | if they had sponsership |
| 18:41 | chris | oh yeah, SIF doesnt look to tricky |
| 18:41 | kados | but they need to go elsewhere to eat |
| 18:41 | ryanbisd | right! |
| 18:41 | I really like what Koha has to offer. | |
| 18:41 | kados | ryanbisd: it's quite mature for an open-source ILS |
| 18:42 | chris | its just xml :) |
| 18:42 | ryanbisd | do you know if its compatable with Follet? |
| 18:42 | kados | compatable? |
| 18:42 | as in 'can we migrate from follett to koha'? | |
| 18:42 | ryanbisd | yeah |
| 18:42 | kados | if so ... the answer is yes |
| 18:42 | chris | with a dtd .. so id imagine a routine to export/import from it wouldnt be too hard |
| 18:42 | ryanbisd | awesome. |
| 18:42 | chris | thanks to XML::Simple :) |
| 18:43 | ryanbisd | so... just so i can tell the bossman... |
| 18:43 | kados | and if you need help with development, migration, staff training, ongoing maintenance ... |
| 18:43 | ryanbisd | what are we looking at for sponsorship? |
| 18:43 | just a ballpark | |
| 18:43 | kados | you can hire katipo or liblime to do it all for you |
| 18:43 | hmmm ... | |
| 18:43 | ryanbisd | I have 2 other people I work with, that are pretty experienced... I am the least experienced... |
| 18:44 | I wanna do a lot of it, to learn.. | |
| 18:44 | kados | experienced ... programmers? librarians? |
| 18:44 | ryanbisd | programmers |
| 18:44 | DB guys | |
| 18:44 | kados | perl? |
| 18:44 | chris | theres also the option too, that you write the SIF parser and contribute that to koha |
| 18:44 | kados | right ... that's be another way to go if you've got support staff already |
| 18:44 | ryanbisd | see, that might be the route... |
| 18:44 | chris | with help |
| 18:44 | kados | (which it sounds liek you do) |
| 18:44 | ryanbisd | contribute to the cause |
| 18:45 | kados | yep |
| 18:45 | chris | im always up for a flight overseas :) |
| 18:45 | *grin* | |
| 18:45 | kados | heh |
| 18:45 | ryanbisd | hahahah.. |
| 18:45 | chris | ok i have a meeting |
| 18:45 | ryanbisd | are you guys on here most of the day? |
| 18:45 | chris | nice to meet you |
| 18:45 | ryanbisd | you too |
| 18:45 | kados | ryanbisd: yep |
| 18:45 | ryanbisd | what time is it where you guys are? |
| 18:45 | kados | it's 19:45 for me |
| 18:45 | I'm in Ohio | |
| 18:46 | ryanbisd | oh, ok... cool |
| 18:46 | Im in Dallas | |
| 18:46 | kados | Chris's in NZ ... prolly still morning there |
| 18:46 | (tomorrow morning ;-)) | |
| 18:46 | ryanbisd | I will bw talking to you guys more for sure.. |
| 18:46 | do you know if follet has its own DB that is easily accessable? | |
| 18:47 | kados | not sure ... I'd have to ask my migration specialist |
| 18:47 | :-) | |
| 18:47 | ryanbisd | gotcha... |
| 18:50 | thd | kados: MARC import with no ISBNs is broken |
| 18:50 | kados | thd: yep ... you've posted about that like 5 times ;-) |
| 18:50 | thd | sorry, |
| 18:50 | kados | thd: it's not broken in stable though |
| 18:51 | thd | kados: stable is 2.2.3? |
| 18:51 | kados | thd: yep |
| 18:51 | thd | kados: it is broken for me in a new 2.2.3 install |
| 18:52 | kados | thd: hmmm ... |
| 18:52 | ryanbisd | see ya guys.. thanks for the info!!! I will be talking to you tomorrow! |
| 18:52 | kados | thd: well I haven't installed 2.2.3 yet so I can't confirm or deny that |
| 18:52 | thd: any error messages? | |
| 18:52 | thd: in the logs? | |
| 18:53 | thd | kados: none that I remember, will check now though |
| 19:00 | kados: will be back in a few minutes with a confirmed answer. my x-windows session is thrahing : \ | |
| 19:11 | indradg | its 5:50 AM and I forgot to sleep |
| 19:49 | thd | kados: As I had remembered, no error message in the error log for MARC import failure when no ISBN is present using 2.2.3 stable. |
| 19:52 | kados: sorry I had pestered about this but I was under time pressure to demonstrate something when no I could not get z39.50 running on OSX there was then no way for me to demonstrate import for older works in a collection. | |
| 19:55 | kados: Of course this needs to be fixed before anyone can get their older records from Follet or wherever else into Koha. | |
| 20:04 | kados | thd: of course ... but I don't remember any major commits to 2.2.3 that would break import |
| 20:04 | and I've got a 2.2.2 install that importing works fine on | |
| 20:04 | I'll have to investigate this further | |
| 20:05 | thd | kados: I discovered the problem in 2.2.2b |
| 20:08 | kados: what version is your 2.2.2 install? The about koha link will not report the b in 2.2.2b. | |
| 02:01 | osmoze | hello |
| 04:54 | chris | evening ryan |
| 08:09 | Ryanbisd | Mornin guys |
| 08:31 | sylvain | hi all |
| 10:10 | owen | Hi Ryanbisd |
| 10:11 | Ryanbisd | hola |
| 11:40 | kados: you there? | |
| 11:50 | kados | Ryanbisd: yea ... but I'm kinda busy |
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