IRC log for #koha, 2005-05-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time	Nick	Message
14:09	JYL57	hello
14:17	owen	Hi kados, JYL57
14:17	JYL57	hello owen
14:24	owen	kados:  what'd you think of rachel's search suggestions?
14:58	Sylvain	hi all !
14:58		many ppl there :)
14:58	JYL57	Hello Sylvain
14:58	owen	Hi Sylvain
15:00	JYL57	Sylvain, I read the IRC log to discover that member creation didn't update "creation date" or something like that ?!
15:00		Can you confirm/explain ?
15:00	Sylvain	in fact when you create a member, its expiry date isn't set
15:00		but Paul told me this afternoon (for us) that he had fixed it
15:01		one other pb with members is that no account line is created for the fee when you create a member
15:02		and I also think that there's no notification when the expiry date of a user has passed ...
15:02	JYL57	I have more than 250 members now. Any timestamp available to determine when they became member ?!
15:02	Sylvain	on the members info page, there's a line like ", expiry "
15:02		where you should have join date and expiry date
15:03		but in reality, it remains blank
15:03		yes, you should write a script to update it with first issue, sure
15:03	JYL57	Ok but the "join date" is stored so ?!
15:03	owen	Sylvain, it should be possible to write a script that checks the expiration date of users and then...does something.  You could put it in cron and run it regularly.  But then the question is, what do you do with expired users?
15:04		There isn't any built-in status to flag a user as expired.
15:04	Sylvain	owen, you at least write on circulation screen that the user account has expired
15:04		then the librarian does what he wants
15:04		but he knows it
15:04	owen	True...so you'd either have to set some kind of flag in the patron record, or just do the expiration check every time you loaded a patron record.
15:04	Sylvain	it's remark a customer made to me and I think he's right, it's a problem not to see clearly the member has 'expired'
15:05		yes, when you load user infos, I think it should be possible to check the date and write if needed
15:05	owen	It's one of those aspects of Koha that have the potential of being useful but hasn't been expanded upon.
15:05	Sylvain	I think I'll go further because it seems to be a real problem to our customer
15:06	owen	welcome, shaun
15:06	shaun	hi owen, all
15:08	christian	Good afternoon to all.
15:15	rach	hello
15:17	shaun	hi all, i'll be back at GMT 8:50, going to get some work done before the meeting
15:17	JohnN	hello
15:17	slef	hihi
15:18	kados	hi slef
15:18	slef	Are we all enjoying the Eurovision semi-final?
15:22	owen	If I could be enjoying anything besides work, it would probably be a nap!
15:23	kados	:-) little one keeping you up again?
15:23	owen	Not this time.  It was George Lucas.
15:23	kados	ahh ... how was it?
15:24	owen	It was a lot of fun.
15:27	slef	(BBC3/NDR/SLO2 and all good national broadcasters)
15:38		Hello Ben.
15:38	Ben	hi slef..
15:38		sorry I'm late: I wasn't sure of the time, and Dead Ringers (satirical comedy show) was on.
15:38	owen	We're not starting for another 20 minutes or so
15:39	Ben	ah.
15:39	slef	Ben: UTC not BST.
15:39	Ben	I got the time right, then - :P to shaun
15:39	slef	Ben: Eurovision on BBC 3
15:40	Ben	I don't have freeview; plus, the only decent music ever on Eurovision was ABBA in the late 70s
15:41		lol
15:41	slef	70 quid on Monday from www.lidl.co.uk
15:42		if you're interested in going digital
15:42	Ben	#
15:42		I already have sky digital, but the telly connected to it is displaying something decent atm
15:43	slef	ah, I prefer to avoid Murdoch and remember Hillsborough
15:43	JohnN	the theme is interesting
15:43	Ben	oh yes.. and as a resident of a deep Cornish valley, freeview is not yet available to me, despite the analogue transmitters being turned off soonish
15:43	JohnN	Which is the objective?
15:44	slef	I plan to replace the satsys with a PVR, but everything else gets done first ;-)
15:44		JohnN: of what?
15:44		hi alaurin
15:44	Ben	hmm.. E4 is coming to freeview soon
15:44	alaurin	hi
15:44	Ben	http://www.freeview.co.uk/cgi-[…]postcode=pl22+0ab
15:45	slef	Ben: not got full freeview/DTT here without new aerials, amplifiers and so on. Cheaper to get satellite. Not even got clear national FM or AM station reception, though. :-/
15:46	Ben	mmm.
15:47		however, satellite connections are expensive, and I really hate flicking through close to 500 channels I don't have to get something interesting.. most of the time I just watch the BBC channels or C4 (no Five here either)
15:47	shaun	hi ben, everyone else, i'm back.
15:47	Ben	hi shaun..
15:47		told you it was 10pm
15:47	slef	erm, hello ki11er?
15:47		wb shaun
15:48	JohnN	is my first experience in the IRC
15:48	michael	opps forgot about that
15:48	slef	Ben: expensive
15:48	shaun	(slef: what does wb mean?)
15:48	Ben	welcome back
15:48	slef	JohnN: ah, right. We're waiting a few minutes until the meeting starts, then it will proceed something like a real-space meeting.
15:48		shaun: welcome back
15:49	Ben	10 mins left yet, slef
15:49	slef	I don't use many, but I'm lazy on the socialities.
15:49	shaun	ah, *nitmf.toflas* ;-)
15:50		what's a LART?
15:50	slef	go look it up on foldoc.org
15:51	shaun	ah... lol
15:51	JohnN	thanks :slef
15:53	indradg	5 more minutes to go... damned mosquitoes eating me up alive!
15:53	slef	indradg: napalm?
15:53	indradg	slef, lol
15:54	shaun	second. most. useful. dictionary. ever. after http://www.4rthur.com/dict.php that is
15:55	indradg	slef, palletize allethrin
15:56	shaun	slef: would that be firefox? i use dict.die.net for all my "serious" word searching...
15:57	slef	yay, terry wogan is answering the phone votes
15:57		shaun: it's a firefox-based browser.
15:57		hello tholbroo
15:58	tholbroo	good afternoon
15:59	Ben	slef, netscape 8?
15:59	slef	Ben: no, just a local mod of firefox to make it free ;-)
15:59	Ben	it IS free
15:59	shaun	not as in freedom.
16:00	Ben	why is it not free as in freedom?
16:00	slef	shaun++
16:00	shaun	ooh, it's just flicked over to 9PM GMT - *itching to start*
16:00	slef	as in free software. Firefox as shipped contains uneditable artwork, trademarks and settings
16:00		Uh, is kaitiaki here?
16:00	rach	just sat down
16:01	Ben	slef, 1.1 has greatly expanded GUI settings changers, and I don't see the problem with copyrighted artwork...
16:01	rach	yes, although he's saying paul lunch, which is a bit of a long lunch really
16:01	Ben	ah well.
16:01	slef	hello J_Holm
16:01	J_Holm	hi
16:01	owen	How 'bout chris?
16:01	shaun	slef: which settings are you talking about? i know about the artwork, i have had a dilemma over that myself, but not sure about settings
16:01	chris	im here
16:01	rach	yep he's here
16:01	slef	rach: French restaurants :)
16:02	indradg	heh
16:02	rach	:-)
16:02	shaun	hehe
16:02	Ben	lol
16:02		(not literally)
16:02	shaun	stop lolling ben, this is irc, we're serious and talking about koha.
16:03	slef	shaun: Google search. Talk after, if you want.
16:03	rach	they are pouring into the back rows now :-)
16:03	Ben	no we're not.
16:03	slef	I'm pouring into the beer glass. :_)
16:04	mishadoko	hi everyone ;-) someone steal my name here -:))
16:04	kados	Ben: well ... it worked last time ;-)
16:04	Ben	kados.. how??
16:04	michael	mishadoko: me did
16:05		:-)
16:05	mishadoko	i'm joking but there is 2 michael this time :-)
16:05	kados	Ben: I guess some folks are more likely to check email than IRC ...
16:05		Ben: regularly
16:05	slef	I'd phone paul, but I don't know if his number follows him at night.
16:05	michael	I thought my normal IRC name wouldn't go down to well
16:05	rach	So where is everyone from - I suspect that indradg gets the commitment award for getting up in the middle of the night?
16:05	Ben	well, if he's signed in to IRC, he should notice
16:05	JohnN	;-) welcome to all
16:06	shaun	nvm ben, paul's a very clever person. i get emails before i get things over msn, but maybe that's msn :\
16:06	Ben	shaun and I are from the UK, and it's six minutes past 22
16:06	michael	rach: me from here in WGTN (Trentham to be exact)
16:06	shaun	slef: where abouts?
16:07	slef	shaun: from Northamptonshire, living in Norfolk
16:07	rach	hey here he is :-)
16:07	hdl	hi paul
16:07	shaun	hi paul
16:07	Ben	slef, I originated from rushden
16:07		hi paul
16:07	JohnN	hi paul :)
16:07	rach	Hokay, welcome everyone for our first big Koha meeting in 2005
16:08	Dweezil	hi from Dublin, Ireland
16:08	slef	Ben, Towcester
16:08	paul	paul, Marseille, France
16:08	Dweezil	oops Gavin, Dublin, Ireland (silly nickname)
16:08	nono	arnaud,Istres,france
16:08	slef	uh, I was talking to Ben. My name isn't Ben.
16:08	mishadoko	hi [bonsoir] paul ;-)
16:08	kados	Joshua, Ohio US (Nelsonville PL and LibLime)
16:09	indradg	hi... Indranil from Calcutta, India
16:09	J_Holm	I'm from Grand Rapids, MI, USA
16:09	mishadoko	Michaël, Hauts-de-Seine, France
16:09	chris	Island bay, wellington, new zealand
16:09	JohnN	welcome ross!
16:09	Ben	oh.. so that's where calcutta is
16:09	slef	Can someone stick the log URL on the end of the channel topic, please?
16:09	russ	russ, katipod, wellington nz
16:10	michael	yeh we have 4 people in WGTN
16:10	rach	rachel - wellington NZ
16:10	shedges	stephen, ohio usa
16:10	rach	si is simon here in wellington
16:10	JYL57	JYL57, Jean-Yves France
16:11	rach	that looks like most of us
16:11	Ben	so, em, who'll open the meeting?
16:11	rach	me
16:11	Ben	ok
16:12	rach	We have an agenda for today - and we're a big group so if you want to have side coversations just make yourselves a seperate channel
16:12		is probalby easier
16:12	paul	hi/salut Sylvain. Just beginning.
16:12	rach	First up welcome everyone, it's nice to see so many names, and from a nice wide range or places
16:13	Sylvain	great paul
16:13	rach	It's been a good year for Koha I believe, with a new version, and new libraries picking it up
16:13	slef	I'll continue greeting people in msg, just so people know.
16:13	rach	cool thanks slef :-)
16:14		as the software gets more mature we have some interesting new challenges to face'
16:14	rob	oxford, oh...just being nosey....
16:14	rach	and it's great to see such a lot of people interested in the project, I'm hoping we might get some more volunteers
16:14		and a bit more division of labour
16:15		I'm aware that Paul had the lions share of effort for V2.2
16:15	Ben	*light, scattered applause for paul*
16:15	rach	and with a new version we get lots of great ideas, and it would be useful to put our heads together as to how we might usefully spread the load a bit
16:16	paul	yes, and /me will be very happy to let someone else go to 2.4 (or maybe 3.0). It's time for Koha to have new ideas & new Release Manager ;-)
16:16	rach	So maybe paul could you do a quick recap now on where 2.2 is at - are you basically installing and bugsquashing?
16:17		ben I've sent you what I've got I believe
16:17	slef	JYL57: Linux-kernel-style numbering. 2.3 will be the developer edition.
16:17	Ben	I think we're naming it in the same fashion as the linux kernel
16:17	paul	JYL57 : we have the same numbers as linux kernel : 2.3 means = unstable
16:17		rach, OK for the recap
16:17	shaun	ben: off irc, i'll send you it.
16:17	Ben	rach, so you only have a png
16:17		thanks shaun
16:17	paul	I've installed koha 2.2 in some libraries now.
16:17		Still some bugs to squash & some improvements to do.
16:18		I already have 3-4 bugfixes for 2.2.3 & some minor improvements.
16:18	shaun	http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.p[…]20May%209PM%20GMT
16:18	paul	do you want a list of bugfixes already done ?
16:18		* a bug in authorities management (selecting & reporting to biblio)
16:19		* a bug in borrowers joining & expiring dates
16:19		* some graphic improvements.
16:19		* a bug in issues & fine setting.
16:19	Ben	when is this bug with the omnipresent Options box in transfers going to be fixed?
16:19	paul	(most of them will be commited to CVS in the next hours/days)
16:19	JohnN	Thanks Paul therefore effort, is of great benefit the system in Bolivia.
16:20	paul	ben could you remind me what you're speaking of ?
16:20	slef	Ben: got a bug number?
16:20	Sylvain	bug in issues and fine is the one I was talking this afternoon paul ?
16:20	shaun	ben: please stop bothering us about that, and it's messages
16:20	paul	i know i've a lot of bugs in bugzilla to solve. I expect to have some time next week.
16:21	Ben	erm, shaun and I have been developing new templates, as you know, but we can't get the Messages box in Transfers to go away
16:21	paul	and i also have some nice ideas for a better usability.
16:21	chris	im sure paul would love any help solving bugs also
16:21	paul	yes chris, of course...
16:21	chris	even if you cant code, you might have some ideas, feel free to annotate any bugs
16:21	paul	I feel a little alone (with hdl & sylvain) on rel_2_2 branch...
16:22	owen	kados and I are trying to pitch in too, paul!
16:22	kados	:-)
16:22	paul	yes, right, sorry to have miss you in my list.
16:22	rach	who else is running 2.2 at the moment?
16:23	paul	in france, i think there are no libraries still in 2.0
16:23	chris	so if you want glory and a mention in the thank you notes .. fix some bugs *grin* most bugs gets a chocolate fish
16:23	paul	(maybe Esiee)
16:23	Genji	ahh... not late?
16:23	paul	just a little late bit Genji
16:24	Genji	k.
16:24	youbeeh	hi everybody
16:24	chris	katipo is in the process of converting a library from their existing library to koha 2.2
16:24	paul	youbeeh is a frenchie, but who is it ??? (introduce yourself)
16:24	slef	I have 2.2 running, but I'm not very motivated (especially not by chocolate: allergic). I think I'm waiting for 2.3 to get a direction to push at.
16:24	indradg	i'm running 2.2.2 at West Bengal University of Technology Central Library, and starting on a branch library as well
16:24	Genji	Long time no see, good to be back in action.
16:24	kados	LibLime is running 2.2 for our demos and NPL is running 2.2 as well
16:24	youbeeh	I'm a student who is trying to install koha for a project
16:25	kados	youbeeh: have you seen our documentation project: kohadocs.org
16:25		we need to promote that more on the main Koha page IMO
16:25	youbeeh	Student from Univerite Paris 5 (Paris) in Artificial Intelligence
16:25	gavin	agreed on listing kohadocs.org
16:25	Sylvain	I really agree with kados ...
16:26	Tom1243	wouldn't kill anyone
16:26	shaun	yes, also agreeing
16:26	Tom1243	This is Brooke, BTW
16:26	youbeeh	Yes, I've seen kohadocs, but i dont know anything about MARC and ISO2709. that's why i'm a little borried
16:27	rach	Ok so it seems like 2.2 then has good uptake, and should have lots of happy bug hunters
16:27	Brooke	MARC is not that hard to pick up on, and even if you don't know a fig about it, it's a good idea to choose it over no MARC
16:27	kados	or unhappy bug hunters ;-)
16:27	rach	indeed :-)
16:27	Brooke	MARC has a whole lot of fields and ordinary person wouldn't add
16:27	rach	brook & Youbeeh - you might want to have a private conversation about tha
16:27	Genji	yup. I prefer non marc... easier to work with perl.
16:27	Brooke	which means your users will be happier
16:28	rach	just a reminder there are a lot of us here, some are up late, if you want to have a chat with someone, just start another channel
16:28	youbeeh	yes. I've installed koha 2.2 yesterday and tried to connect to z3950 servers to retrive notice but no response
16:28	Brooke	this is a koha thing, not an individual user thing. MARC is integral to the project IMO
16:29	michael	Genji: rach
16:29	paul	chairperson is rach
16:29	rach	Me
16:29	youbeeh	rach > U're right : i'll ask for private conv with brook.
16:29	shaun	youbeeh: be patient, I found that problem... wait a minute and it will start searching
16:29	rach	SO on to the new release
16:29	paul	to finish with 2.2 :
16:29	youbeeh	thnks
16:29	paul	I think i'll release a 2.2.3 in 3-4 weeks
16:30		maybe 2.
16:30	chris	cool paul
16:30	paul	then, i'll continue backporting interesting features from head to rel_2_2 & fix bugs where needed
16:30	Genji	looking forward to it. Should get back into CVS, myself.
16:31	shaun	slef: sorry, I didn't realise that a saved query's "now" was the time at which it was saved.
16:31	paul	that's all for me with 2.2 branch?
16:31	rach	excellent - we look forward to your next release :-)
16:32		Ok so now to the next release - and the first thing is the release manager
16:32	JohnN	I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP
16:32	paul	and the winner is ...
16:32	rach	Joshua has volunteered, is there any objection?
16:32	JohnN	I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP
16:32	shaun	kados.
16:32	Sylvain	no objection for me
16:33	kados	I don't object ;-)
16:33	Genji	I second.
16:33	rach	JohnN - ?
16:33	paul	no news from Ineo & no Ineo person present at the moment ?
16:33	slef	I second
16:33	owen	I think the position is uncontested
16:33	hdl	But maybe JohnN has sthg to say
16:33	kados	michael: that's actually shedges project ;-)
16:33	michael	oh
16:34		sorry
16:34	kados	though I have written a fair share of the docs there
16:34	shedges	yep
16:34	paul	(n oproblems, they both are from nelsonville, Ohio ;-) )
16:34	Brooke	yep Stephen somehow finds the time to prettify my babble
16:34	paul	hi stephen.
16:34	shedges	hey paul
16:34	paul	(anyway, i would be very happy to see joshua as RM. and i wish him lot of fun)
16:35	Nick	(anyone but you, right Paul? chuckling...)
16:35	paul	(i don't wish him lot of work : he will have enough without any wishes ;-) )
16:35	kados	Here's a link to some of the features I'd like to see in KOha 2.4
16:35		http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.p[…]20May%209PM%20GMT
16:35		oops
16:35		http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes
16:35		the second on is the right link
16:36	Genji	oh i so love having three screeens.
16:37	Ben	incidentally, I can do documentation work, in accordance with the first item on that list..
16:37	Sylvain	about the projet of kados, searching improvements seems to me an important thing ...
16:37	kados	Right ... that'd be great
16:37	Genji	yup. my org's secretary is harping on about wanting a manual.
16:37	Nick	I'll try (as usual) to pitch in.
16:38	kados	In my vision of the 2.4 release process I'd like to see a 'manager' of each major section of Koha
16:38		not to constrain what can be done ... mainly to make sure it actually gets done
16:38	Genji	is it possible to intergrate a passworded wiki into koha, as the online help?
16:38	Ben	does anyone have an objection to me putting my doc work as a WikiBook?
16:39	shedges	no, just share the link
16:39	Ben	i.e. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Koha
16:39	shedges	thanks!
16:39	Sylvain	Ben, wikibook and wikimedia projects are great, I don't objet :)
16:39	Ben	damned mediawiki customisation..
16:39	rach	So joshua over the next few weeks will you be calling for volunteers
16:39	kados	so we need tom volunteers to fill the positions
16:40	rach	and forming "groups" around the various tasks
16:40	slef	Ben: I suggest writing a free software manual (GPL?) and using a more wiki-like wiki
16:40	kados	I assume Stephen will be the Doc manager?
16:40		yep
16:40		I'd vote that Owen be our interface designer
16:40	shedges	sure
16:40	shaun	ben: it would be good if you could use something like forrest or docbook to share the documentation in other formats, and posting on www.kohadocs.org
16:40	Ben	slef, I prefer mediawiki, which wiki did you have in mind?
16:40	shaun	ben and slef: GFDL
16:40	Brooke	I really hope that there will be a very visible link from Koha.org to kohadocs.
16:41	Nick	I can cope with helping format into Docbook XML.
16:41	kados	what we need badly are a QA person and some writers/blogers
16:41	Brooke	I still get a lot of shock about people that couldn't find either the wiki or kohadocs
16:41	owen	bloggers?
16:41	Ben	shaun, as you well know, I am not going to use forrest. I am attempting in using wikibooks to find a way of easily producing this so it can be shared with others, and collaboration
16:41	Nick	...a copy to screenshot helps also.
16:41	rach	we need some people talking about koha
16:41	kados	well ... maybe just a single blogger
16:41		an official blogger or something
16:41	rach	like stephens diary, but as it happened :-)
16:41	slef	shaun: FDL is a pain for debian, even ignoring the other questions
16:41	kados	right
16:42		I suppose that could fall under documentation but in my book it's more PR or advertising
16:42	slef	kados: I'll blog and set up a page under Columns on www.otherwayup.org for anyone else who wants to?
16:42	Ben	slef, which wiki would you have me use?
16:42	rach	and I get asked for articles, but I'm not good at writing them
16:42	shaun	ben: private discussion for that.
16:42	Genji	bloggers are all the rage these days.
16:42	owen	I like that idea, kados.  Maybe we could set up a group blog on Koha.org?
16:42	kados	I think with a bit more marketing we could draw in more programmers and libraries interested in getting involved
16:42	slef	Ben, not sure at the minute. One which uses http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TextFormattingRules
16:42	Genji	if you want to advertise it, blog it. Or slashdot it.
16:42	pate	i like the  blogging idea
16:42	shaun	owen: i like that idea
16:43	Brooke	i dunno, a blog would require fairly constant maintenance
16:43	slef	owen: otherwayup is a blog aggregator. I'll call for RSS URLs in a few days, once my email settles?
16:43	kados	so any volunteers for that?
16:43		the other major thing Koha's missing is QA
16:44		on problem is we don't have docs for how to do QA
16:44	Ben	kados, QA is ok for me as wel
16:44	shaun	if we make the blog central (i.e. somewhere on www.koha.org) and give devs access to it, I would be more than willing to contribute regularly
16:44	Ben	l
16:44	chris	kados: id suggest you send out an email after the meeting, with the roles you envisage
16:44	kados	ok
16:44	owen	slef, you mean this: http://www.otherwayup.org.uk/ ?
16:44	shaun	but I doubt if other developers would be willing to maintain their own blogs.
16:44	indradg	one idea... how abt a planet-koha
16:44	slef	owen: yes, but with a different skin
16:45	Nick	different skin?
16:45	slef	shaun: I think I can set up email->blog, but I've not got one running at the minute
16:45		Nick: different page style
16:45	rach	Ok so we have some takers for blogs - joshua write those nicks down :-)
16:45	kados	:-)
16:45	indradg	I help maintain planet-india.randomink.org... rss aggregator for FOSS dev blogs of Indian/indian-origin
16:45	Brooke	write? People use pencils?!
16:46	kados	what's a pencil?
16:46		:-)
16:46	paul	this word means nothing in french.
16:46	shaun	one of those things that you tap your pda skin with. oh no, that's a stylus.
16:46	rach	I know that both Slef and I have a keen interest in the design of Koha  - interface etc, so Owen I suspect you should add us to your wee list
16:46	shaun	same here rach - I'm coming from design
16:46	owen	Okay, and ben and shaun as well
16:46	rach	and ben and shaun as well perhaps
16:47		snap :-)
16:47	owen	Problem with you, rach, is you design stuff that no one has coded yet! ;)
16:47	Sylvain	with the new screenshot, I support rach for design :)
16:47	Nick	(but you push it with such style!)
16:48	slef	yes, please add me to a UI list, but beware my email address will change soon
16:48	Genji	owen: her designs are beautiful.. but i take a look and think.... how do you do that? Is that possible?
16:48	shaun	it isn't working atm - HEAD has problems, and I will not be updating rel_2.2 as well.
16:48	kados	there are a few things to think about when we're talking about design: usability, beauty, accessability, standards-compliance, etc.
16:48	rach	we have html for the "look" just not the features
16:48	kados	I think the ID should make sure we've got all the bases covered
16:48	Nick	accessability is a big one:  keep in mind for gov't supported libs in a lot of places, accessability is absolute.
16:49	Brooke	exactly nick
16:49	indradg	Nick, good point!
16:49	slef	yes, this is a problem for me too
16:49	rach	yep us to
16:49	Brooke	function first, pretty is nice
16:49	russ	hmm, i thought that was what templates were for
16:49	Genji	also.. would be good if we could have a template that could run off a cellphone. Or a PDA.
16:49	Brooke	That's why I rate DRA over Epixtech :)
16:49	kados	one advantage that owen has is that he actually works the desk
16:49	paul	shaun : i know there are some bugs introduced by my last cvs syn'ch. drop me a mail when you encounter one, i'll fix it asap.
16:49	russ	so that you could have pretty if you wanted it
16:49	rach	so that you end up with functional & pretty
16:50	shaun	beauty and usability as well - i have a number of experiences where people have refused to use a product because of its look, obviously.
16:50	chris	im with shaun
16:50		never underestimate the eye candy
16:50	kados	yep
16:50	Nick	...no flaming/rotating logos!!! : )
16:50	paul	I agree with all of you about beauty, usability & accessability.
16:50	russ	shaun  - i agree, in my role as a project manager i see people forgive faults in stuff that looks beatiful all the time
16:50	paul	just reminind another important point :
16:50	Nick	*class* is a must.  Not that we've ever not had it.
16:50	paul	"translatability"
16:51	chris	good point paul
16:51	paul	(does this word exist ?)
16:51	Brooke	I'm not underestimating it - i know a lot jumped on because of stephen's templates
16:51	kados	good one paul
16:51	shaun	Genji: I can do a PDA one quite easily - are you talking about palm or PocketPC?
16:51	Brooke	but if it doesn't work at the end of the day, folks aren't going to stay
16:51	slef	paul: translatabilitification?
16:51	kados	Brooke: do you mean owen's templates?
16:51	shedges	(owen's templates)
16:51	Brooke	stephens $ ;)
16:51	shedges	hehe
16:51	owen	:)
16:51	Brooke	Yes owen makes pretty stuff.
16:51	Genji	shaun: any small size screen. think 160 x 160 is the smallest ive come across, for pda's.
16:52	rach	OK - now is not the time to actaully redesign things
16:52	Nick	added bonus maybe:  PDA for inventory/"roving" work.
16:52	shaun	I'll look into it - i have a pda which needs something to do
16:52	rach	Joshua are we done for now with 2.4 - you want people to add their wishis to your page
16:52	shaun	Nick: absolutely - could do a lot for inventory
16:53	kados	that sound good
16:53	rach	we will have specific meetings/mail stuff about features etc
16:53	Ben	anyone wishing to assist me in creating the koha wikibook should do so at en.wikibooks.org/wiki/koha
16:53	kados	:-)
16:53	shaun	Keep presentation separate from everything else is what I say - looks make it the killer.
16:53	rach	but if there is something that is your pasion, graphic design, usability, searching, acquisitioning, interfacing with other systems etc let joshua know
16:54		and then he can drag you in for it
16:54	Nick	(also, on presentation ...let's not forget everyone is not broadband linked ...)
16:54	rach	oh - QA, Testing and bugfixing - we particularly love people who like to refactor (rather than code new features)
16:54	Brooke	I can make little icons with Paint :)
16:54	paul	nono => the 5-6 last sentences are important for SAN ;-)
16:54	shaun	a critical problem with the default 2.2 ones is the number of classes e.g. class="button circulation"
16:54	slef	Ben, please put it under GPL so it can be included with koha later.
16:54	paul	why ? it's "legal" ?
16:54	rach	guys stop now
16:55		we'll be here all night otherwise
16:55	kados	yep ... let's not go thee atm
16:55		there even ;-)
16:55	slef	rach: I like to refactor, but uncommented code is often tricky to be sure about.
16:55	rach	Stephen, You've been hard at work on the docs - lets move on to them
16:55	paul	(thanks rach to think to frenchies : it's almost midnight for us !)
16:55	shaun	i was hoping we would be... 2.4 is a major milestone ;-)
16:55	shedges	I think we need some spanish translations
16:55		especially the sysadmin docs
16:55	paul	(& i'm already wondering if it should not be called 3.0 !)
16:56	shedges	they get hit a lot
16:56	slef	(so take that as a beg for good comments when you write new code!)
16:56	shedges	yeah, i wonder if someone shouldn't be policing that
16:56	rach	yep good point slef - documentation starts in the code :-)
16:56	Nick	Anyone geek-english/spanish bilingual?
16:57	shedges	JohnN?
16:57	Sylvain	I really agree with comments, it's really surprising to see the small amount of comments in koha code ...
16:57	kados	agreed
16:57	shedges	paul, you'vr been good with your comments
16:57		want to make some guidelines?
16:58	paul	please ?
16:58	Ben	ok.. how are we going to host this doco then?
16:58	indradg	"Koha coding standards and guidelines for contributors"
16:58	Nick	(wouldn't hurt to include examples with the guidelines....)
16:58	shedges	yeah
16:58	slef	Ben, koha.org/wiki/ if it comes back?
16:58	Brooke	here's a ?
16:58	Ben	slef, ok
16:59	Brooke	Documentation -> More useful with pics, but where would I upload them to?
16:59	slef	Ben, if not, we'll replace it, I expect ;-)
16:59	shedges	that would be great
16:59	Ben	it's not down
16:59	paul	ok, i'll add this to my almost empty (grins) agenda...
16:59	JohnN	Is the first time in the IRC, excuses by the language, my spek  is Spanish
16:59	shedges	Brooke:  send me pics, I can add them
17:00	slef	What do people think about perltidy'ing the source?
17:00	Genji	perltidy?
17:00	youbeeh	do you have something lake an UML design for all the project ?
17:00	paul	shedges : could you explain (maybe with a mail on koha-devel) how to add a picture with xmlmind on a docbook document.
17:00	shaun	koha v3 really should have something which sets it aside technically from other ILS, plus super-duper templates, and advanced (Plucene?) searching imo... that's a long way off, but I don't know what will set 2.4 apart yet...
17:00	chris	i use perltidy a lot
17:00	Nick	We have a UMLish thing and some nice pics.
17:00	Ben	sorry, I have to go now.
17:00		byee.
17:00	Nick	Look at the thing @ kohadocs.org (the architectural study)
17:00	paul	youbeeh : no we don't
17:00	slef	Genji: perltidy is for perl like indent is for C
17:01	youbeeh	ok
17:01	shedges	paul, save it in gif.  I'll e-mail more info
17:01	chris	i think using it for koha is a good thing
17:02	Genji	oohhh.. i like perltidy. got it open in the other screen.
17:02	shedges	OK, goals for documentation:
17:02		get some guidelines for commenting code
17:02		get some spanish translations
17:02	chris	you cant really have too much comments
17:03	Sylvain	translate the upcoming user guide in important languages
17:03	Nick	(...proofread everything, the perpetual goal of doc)
17:03	shedges	shoudl we require perldoc type comments?
17:03	Nick	Suggestions for important?
17:03	slef	chris: I think "$s = $s + 1; # add 1 to $s" is a bit far.
17:04		shedges: encourage and request. Not sure we can require unless only kados may commit.
17:04	Sylvain	sure slef but right now we are really far from that ...
17:04		koha code really misses comments ...
17:04	slef	Sylvain++
17:04	Genji	slef: ++$s
17:04	Nick	how about some bare minimums?
17:05	paul	my opinion is that the minimums are :
17:05	Nick	ie, "always comment the following: SQL, etc etc"?
17:05	paul	* explain what a script does at the beginning
17:05		* use meaningful variable names
17:05	slef	Nick, care to draft something?
17:05	paul	* add a comment where you are not doing a trivial thing
17:06	Nick	(Paul's got the most experience reading what's there...)
17:06		(defer to him, first)
17:06	gavin	is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those
17:06	paul	ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it
17:06	shedges	great!
17:06	chris	not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise
17:07	shedges	may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function?
17:07	hdl	paul sugested that too.
17:08	paul	(in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm)
17:08	JohnN	I can help has to do the translator in spanish.
17:08	paul	(in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main))
17:08	shedges	great!!
17:08	slef	shedges: I think that would be best as POD.
17:08	hdl	The best would be to agree on a template for comments.
17:08	rach	awesome john
17:08	paul	(in .pm we are supposed to have POD !)
17:08	Nick	good idea, the template.
17:08	shedges	yep, and most of the old stuff does have POD
17:08	JohnN	<gavin> is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those
17:09		<paul> ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it
17:09		<shedges> great!
17:09		<chris> not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise
17:09		<shedges> may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function?
17:09		<hdl> paul sugested that too.
17:09		<paul> (in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm)
17:09		<JohnN> I can help has to do the translator in spanish.
17:09		<paul> (in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main))
17:09	rach	eek
17:09	Genji	ack, JohnN?
17:09	slef	JohnN: paste error.
17:09	shedges	deja vu
17:09	hdl	Why not having a wiki page for comments template ?
17:09	rach	yep - johns first time in IRC so we'll cut him some slack :-)
17:10	shedges	(most be all the drugs in the '60s....)
17:10	youbeeh	me too first time in IRC  ;)
17:10	rach	our only trouble with wiki's seems to be they get hacked
17:10		is that right?
17:10	chris	spammed
17:11		not hacked
17:11	indradg	password protect the wiki?
17:11	slef	spamtrapping is a fun arms race
17:11		indradg: doesn't work. Also have to blacklist offending URLs.
17:11	chris	but putting the password on the wiki has stopped it pretty effectiviel
17:11		y
17:11	Brooke	yup
17:12	shedges	OK, JohnN, I'm going to look to you for some translations -- I'll be in touch
17:12	Brooke	unfortunately, it wipes a lot from Google :(
17:12	shedges	paul, you'll start some guidelines for comments?
17:12	paul	yep shedges
17:12	slef	Brooke: password for edit only helps, but means you still attract spammers, as you can help their google ranks.
17:12	shedges	great!!  anything else for docs right now?
17:13	slef	Brooke: I mean, is there's no password for viewing.
17:13	paul	online help maybe ?
17:13	slef	"if" not "is"
17:13	Nick	Anything useful I can do Steve?
17:13	Brooke	right
17:13	paul	some frenchies are working on it (in french for instance)
17:13	Nick	...always available for proofing, btw, if anyone is drafting stuff.
17:13	paul	they have written some onlinehelp on the wiki.
17:13	Nick	Always!
17:13	Brooke	Frenchies speak french?! Oh man, I have it all wrong ;)
17:13	paul	still to be improved
17:13	rach	oh good one paul
17:14	shedges	good, the online help now is already out of date!
17:14		how do we get online help from the wiki to cvs?
17:14	paul	not really out of date. but uncomplete yes
17:14		copy paste manually !
17:15	shedges	Nick, is that something that would interest you?
17:15	Brooke	it's that easy paul?
17:15	shedges	Brfooke?
17:15		(Brooke?)
17:15	paul	easy yes. Boring, for sure ;-)
17:15	Nick	Shoveling the CVS stuff?
17:15		I can cope.
17:15		Can't be any worse than hand tagging docbook xml
17:15	chris	:)
17:15	shedges	hehe
17:16	Brooke	what piece of the online help would you like me to start with? Koha is a little large ;)
17:16	paul	xmlmind.com is your friend Nick !
17:16	Nick	that it is.
17:16	shedges	Brooke, have you got 2.2.2?
17:16	paul	brooke : just use Koha & clic "Help".
17:16	Brooke	had it, dropped back down to rc4, because I couldn't add biblios
17:16	paul	if you see "sorry no help", then you've got a page to write !
17:17	shedges	we need to add stuff that's missing, correct a few things that have changed since 2.0
17:17		IIRC, the wiki's set up pretty nicely
17:17	Nick	paul:  have been out of loop a bit, may call on you for pointers/what to look for.
17:17	paul	(in parameters & new features in 2.2, everything should be writen & uptodate)
17:18	Brooke	how about I start with the borrower fine screen?
17:18	paul	in older sections, there is usually nothing
17:18		for example, in member section
17:18	rach	start at a bit you understand brooke :-)
17:18	JohnN	count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish
17:18	rach	thank you john
17:19	shedges	great?  I'd choose one of the install docs to start with
17:19	Nick	Will make CVS sync'ing part of my "weekly or so" routine.
17:19	paul	Brroke : ok for borrower fine screen.
17:19	Nick	Steve.... one of the things that is definitely "not fresh" is a FAQ.
17:19	paul	... is manual installation of Koha
17:19	shedges	JohnN, 'Install Koha on Fedora" gets the most hits
17:20	chris	yep the FAQ needs a complete rewrite
17:20	Nick	tried to restart that awhile back, fingers froze up trying to shuttle stuff from the mail-lists into wiki while making sense of answers.
17:20	shedges	Where is that old FAQ, Nick?
17:20	chris	amd we should just kill the quick start installation guide
17:20	Nick	(will dredge it up... you want the wiki attempt, or the Really Old One?)
17:21	chris	it worked fine for 1.0.2 ... but that was a long time ago
17:21	rach	http://www.koha.org/faq/\
17:21		that one?
17:21	chris	thats the really old one
17:21	rach	it is really old
17:21	chris	without the \
17:21		:_
17:21	kados	IMO koha.org should have a 'documentation' link on the left-hand side that links to kohadocs.org
17:21	shedges	wiki attempt sounds interesting, Nick
17:21	Brooke	i concur
17:21	chris	theres a lot that should be done to koha.org
17:21	rach	we have "website" as item 9 on the agenda :-)
17:21	youbeeh	right : newbees like me always need FAQ
17:21	paul	(i've plan to add such a link in koha-fr.org)
17:21	kados	rach: sorry ;-)
17:21	Nick	There is a fresher, XML'd one in the stuff I've got.
17:21		the wiki is ... hangon...
17:22	shaun	Ben has told me to suggest that the website needs updating... what number are we on now? ;-)
17:22	rach	so if we're kinda done with documentation.... or at least got to a level of detail that we should probalby more on?
17:22		more = move
17:22	chris	good idea rach
17:22	slef	rach: what item are we on now?
17:22	Nick	http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koh[…]ndex.php?page=FAQ
17:22	rach	we are on number 5
17:22	slef	cool, that's what I thought
17:23	rach	6 - volunteers needed
17:23	paul	only 1 answer : always ;-)
17:23	Brooke	hooray
17:23	rach	have we mostly covered that already?
17:23	paul	number 7 now ?
17:23	rach	7 - How to get new features into Koha
17:23	Genji	think im motivated back into koha, thanks all
17:24	owen	Step One: Don't file an enhancement bug.
17:24	Nick	ditto, Genji, ditto.
17:24	rach	So Joshua, Paul, Chris as our various release managers, it would be good to hear from you guys, what others can do to get new features into koha
17:25	chris	just do it
17:25		before the feature freeze
17:25		:)
17:25	paul	my opinion on this is that the release manager should :
17:25	kados	yep
17:25	rach	and if you're not a coder?
17:25	paul	* ask what we should add
17:25	chris	find someone who is
17:25	rach	find one and convince them to?
17:25	paul	* when do we plan to release ?
17:25	chris	and bribe them too
17:25	paul	* who can say "i'll do it"
17:25	kados	find one and pay them ;-)
17:25	owen	Yeah, I think bribing is the important step.
17:26		I don't think we have many Koha coders sitting around looking for something to do.
17:26	paul	we have a lot of new features that will come from SAN Ouest Provence.
17:26	kados	paul: yep ... I plan to do that
17:26		that's great
17:26	slef	Careful, I get flamed for suggesting that I can be bribed, IIRC
17:26	paul	I think nono should write some line now here.
17:26	Nick	Incidentally (call it new business).
17:26	shaun	what is the status with the argentinian code, paul?
17:26	kados	I wish they would be more visible
17:26	nono	i'm here
17:26	paul	nothing new ...
17:26	kados	I'm the last one to talk to Emiliano
17:26	Nick	Is there an official Bribery Vehicle?
17:26	Brooke	what does joshua think seeing as he's the head release d00d now...
17:27	Nick	I'm semi serious.
17:27	kados	he's sending me a tgz file with everything and I"m going to try to weed through it ;-)
17:27	shaun	that's where most of the code that we (in school) are interested in should be coming from - the argentinian stuff
17:27	paul	(you should explain what are SAN plans nono : timeline, ressources & maybe some features)
17:27	owen	kados: ouch.
17:27	kados	yep ... well it's better than not having it at all
17:27	slef	Nick: in what sense?
17:28	rach	are you wanting to know if people can donate to the koha cause?
17:28	chris	shall we put that one in general business
17:28	Nick	Bingo, Rach.
17:28	paul	kados : feel free to share some code with me & hdl if you feel overwhelmed.
17:28	Brooke	yes, but you haven't said anything not jokingly, so I want some serious clarification. :)
17:28	chris	cos i can see it will be a big discussion :)
17:28	kados	I'd like to hear from the SAN Quest folks more ... can they get involved in writing emails to the list and joining us on IRC?
17:28		paul: I will !
17:28	paul	please wait a minut everybody...
17:29		nono is a french developper from SAN. A lot of goodwill, but some lacks in english.
17:29	kados	ahh ... great!
17:29	paul	so he will write some lines if you let him do so ;-)
17:29	kados	of course ... we'd like to get SAN as active as possible
17:29	Brooke	hard to find non accented chars on a french keyboard, too :)
17:29	nono	soory, for my english : i'm working for Ouest provence and it's very difficult to me to writh quickly
17:29	slef	peut kados parle francais?
17:30	kados	non
17:30	paul	(not really slef ;-) )
17:30	slef	domage
17:30	kados	my french is quite bad
17:30	slef	ni povas paroli esperante
17:30	Nick	(don't anyone ask me, either, je parle francais comme un allemande)
17:30		(or so I'm told)
17:31	Brooke	Ego loquo latina :)
17:31	paul	(in french we say -sorry spanish- : "I speak XXX like a spanish cow", XXX being a language you don't speak)
17:31	kados	I think the language barriers should not prevent us from communicating
17:31		at the very least, we have tools like Google to help out
17:31	chris	and regula
17:31		:)
17:31	kados	and folks who are bilingual
17:31		:-)
17:31	paul	nono, you explain a little bit more your project ?
17:32	nono	ok
17:32	Brooke	see ya owen thanks
17:32	michael	babelfish.altavista.com is good
17:32	JohnN	count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish
17:32	nono	we are working for
17:32	kados	it sounds like Spanish, French, and English are the major languages we speak
17:32	Brooke	I can't wait for spanish
17:32	slef	kados: warum nicht Deutsch?
17:32	Brooke	if ever there's a problem word, mail me for clarification, and I 'll give it a go
17:32	rach	OK Guys, You actually have to stop for nono to talk
17:32	youbeeh	Sprechen sie deutch?
17:33	kados	right
17:33	rach	it is distracting if you don't speak english well to see it all going by
17:33		and is putting him off
17:33	nono	ok thanks
17:34	Brooke	How about Koha in all UN languages?
17:35	youbeeh	nice but need a lot of contributors to translate ...
17:35	kados	right ... so slef just pointed out that I ought to mention that I can read French and Spanish slowly ... so if you can only write in those languages you can still talk to me ... just slowly ;-)
17:35	shaun	Koha in whatever languages there are demands for. How many people is that?
17:36	JohnN	In Latinoamerica many translations they have done itself al spanish  of the system, of way disorganized and duplicating the work, identify around 7 lybrari,s university using KOHA.
17:36	shedges	can we all read it if nono writes in French?
17:36	rach	Nono - this is a bit hard for you I'm sure - would you mind doing us an e-mail in your own time
17:36	JYL57	nono I propose that you say your projects in French and the french team here (paul, hdl, ... and me! will translate it OK ?!
17:36	rach	excellent idea :-)
17:36	paul	yep !
17:37	nono	ok thanks
17:37	paul	(only 1 translator : i'll do translation)
17:37	hdl	ok.
17:37	paul	(otherwise, you will get 3 lines !)
17:37		nono, on t'écoute...
17:38		;-)
17:38		(ok, i let you translating. I already wrote too much here !)
17:38	nono	je travailles pour un reseau de mediatheque : 6 bibliotheques en reseau
17:38	paul	(JYL57 is now our french => english translator for this meeting !)
17:39	hdl	I do.
17:39	slef	<nono> I work for a mediatheque network. 6 libraries in the network.
17:39		paul: general advice is to translate *into* your native language, unless there's a special reason.
17:40	nono	je fais partit d'une equipe de 3 developpeurs qui auront pour tache d'adapter koha aux besoins (tres nombreus de la mediatheque)
17:40	slef	<nono> I am part of a team of three developers who have the task of adapting koha to our needs (very many of the mediatheque)
17:41	nono	nous sommes aidés par une entrprise privée (Ineo) qui mettra aussi a dispostion des developpeurs afin de nous aider a developper aussi
17:42	slef	<nono> we are helped by a private enterprise (Ineo) who also put developers at our disposal to help us become developers too
17:42		(I think)
17:42	paul	(to help us developping too)
17:43	nono	actuellement, nous sommes en train de nous acclimater a koha, au millieu de l'open-source, du perl ..... ce qui fait qu'actuellemnt nous ne sommes pas tres present dans le milieu des developpeurs de koha
17:44	slef	<nono> Currently, we are getting used to koha, in the mix of free software, of perl... that means that currently we aren't very active among koha developers
17:45		(now, that should flag translator bias for everyone ;-) )
17:45	paul	kudos to slef, this translation was hare...
17:45	kados	hehe
17:45	paul	s/e/d/
17:45	gavin	i've gotta hit the hay. hopefully talk to some of you on the dev list in the near future.
17:45	slef	gavin: bye
17:46	rach	nono what is your timeframe for your project?
17:46	kados	or at least hopes for one ;-)
17:46	paul	(nono : le planning pour le san)
17:47	nono	we must finish our project for the 01/01/2006
17:47	rach	an auspicious day
17:47	nono	not for an administration in france
17:48	paul	they already are on the way with migrating their datas (i helped them for the beginning)
17:48	shaun	[OT] how does that fit in with any ideas kados has for 2.4 timeframe?
17:49	paul	(not [OT] at all !!!)
17:49		([OT] meaning  Off Topic, Hors Sujet)
17:50	chris	i think that we will need to give kados some time to think about that
17:50		and he will need to talk more to find out what features are needed etc
17:50	paul	nono, is that all for you ?
17:51	hdl	Et les fonctionnalités ?
17:51		What about the features required ?
17:51	slef	<hdl> and functionalities?
17:51	kados	I think we should try to work together and make SAN's KOha fit within KOha 2.4
17:51	chris	that might be better in an email?
17:51	slef	fine, suit self ;-)
17:51	paul	I can give some ideas on this
17:51	chris	to the devel list?
17:51	kados	but in order to do that we will need to compare notes
17:51	paul	SAN want for example :
17:51		* search history in OPAC
17:52		* what we called "foraging opac" 2 years before
17:52		...
17:52	kados	let's hold off on the specifics ... I'll try to contact SAN and get the ball rolling
17:52	paul	but nothing too specific (ie : everything should be in official Koha)
17:52	kados	who should I contact?
17:53	paul	most of them have subscribed koha-devel.
17:53	kados	is there a project manager?
17:53	paul	nono, should kados/joshua send you a mail ? or hélène ? or Francois laurent ?
17:53	nono	bien sur
17:53	paul	(francois laurent contenay, from Ineo, should be the project manager)
17:54		so, give you mails to kados
17:54		(not here, as it's logged => trapped by spam bots)
17:54	kados	right
17:54	rach	yes
17:54	shedges	(i've got his e-mail, kados)
17:54	paul	some more general explanations about Ineo & SAN...
17:54		Ineo is a large company, in France (60-70 employees)
17:55		they want to provide support for Koha for large libraries.
17:55		Their 1st contract is with SAN.
17:55	Nick	large means....?
17:55	paul	But they have answered a RFP for Angers University
17:55		(large means : more than 100 000€ for the project. being a real minimum)
17:56		they will probably answer RFP from Antilles University
17:56	Nick	(thinking of the place in Africa that was looking at us for their 19 million items National collection)
17:56	paul	They used to work on very large project. Like Qatar city library.
17:56		or Marseille Public Library
17:56		(Marseille being the 2nd largest city in France)
17:57		so, in some months, they will probably have a team dedicated to Koha.
17:57		Francois Laurent Contenay, that was with SAN & I in Nelsonville last month will probably be the project manager on the long term
17:57		that's all about Ineo & San project.
17:57	rach	cool thank you paul
17:58	paul	very very big news for Koha in France.
17:58	rach	that is big news for Koha! let alone in france :-)
17:58	Nick	bravo!
17:58	paul	(and an atomic-bomb one if Angers University decides to go with Koha !)
17:58	kados	yep that would be huge!
17:58	Nick	nod.
17:58		Academic institutions tend to be library leaders in their regions, too...
17:59	chris	how big is angers university paul? how many students?
17:59	rach	what you want to work on Paul, is a library in Tahiti so that we can come visit
17:59	chris	:)
17:59	indradg	heh
17:59	russ	new caledonia
17:59	youbeeh	my job is to install koha in Paris 5 Unibersity. That means that koha is appreciated
17:59	shedges	Paul, what kind of support will INEO want as they learn Koha?
18:00	JYL57	chris : Angers University means 16 000 students
18:00	paul	rach & chris : i've met a guy today that is in Reunion Island. He should contact you for some visits. Close from NZ than from France
18:00		shedges : i don't understand your question.
18:00		and 460 000 items
18:00	kados	also, another question about INEO: will they be active on the list and in #koha communicating with the general community?
18:00	paul	and almos 1 000 000 issues a year !
18:01		my opinion is that they plan to, but they are really surprised by OSS spirit.
18:01	shedges	Paul, will they be working with you, for example?
18:01	kados	I'd like to have regular conversations with the INEO team to find out what their plans are but right now I"m not sure who 'they' is
18:01	JohnN	Paul your you know to Emiliano,, of Argentina, we are I aim to sign a cooperative covenant between the universities of The La Paz  AND the  UNLP,  Argentina and Bolivia Together to improve the KOHA.
18:01	chris	:-)
18:02	Nick	surprised how Paul?
18:02	paul	so they must change their mind & their working methods.
18:02	kados	paul: right
18:02	shedges	right
18:02	kados	how can we help that process?
18:02	paul	working with ppl without money & contract is strange...
18:02		shedges : they will be working with me, of course.
18:03	shaun	_ 'tis midnight, i should be off in a minute
18:03	paul	kados : drop a mail to francois laurend.
18:03	chris	2138673 issues for HLT
18:03	kados	paul: will do
18:03	chris	since koha went live
18:03	paul	JohnN : really good.
18:03	JYL57	chris : just a small times factor in fact ! lol
18:04	paul	ok, guys, 1AM here in france...
18:04		let's go to next topic ?
18:04	kados	yep
18:04	rach	yep - 2 topics left
18:04	shaun	yeh, paul, i agree...
18:04		lol
18:04	rach	first is internationalisation
18:04	shaun	i18n is what you mean to say. :D
18:04	JohnN	good
18:05	slef	At the minute, there's misc/translator and tmpl_process3.pl
18:05		which generates a gettext po file from templates
18:05		and puts it back again to make new/updated templates
18:05		if I understand it right
18:05	indradg	right on the dot
18:06	slef	The templates are still authored in native languages
18:06		Using the templates has the benefit of sort-of caching the languages your library supports
18:07		I'm wondering whether we could aim for templates to be authored in a language-neutral way
18:07	kados	how would that work?
18:07	slef	and if there's a way of supporting less-used languages directly from that and the po-file, rather than depending on what languages the admin installs.
18:08		kados: templates are written with the "msgstr" only and any new msgstr are told to translators
18:08	paul	we could use "on fly" translating, but with our tech architecture, that's not really possible : means reading the whole po file on each page.
18:08	kados	I've toyed with the idea of having a 'programmers' template
18:08	slef	as I understand it... I've not translated as many templates as I hoped
18:09		uh, do I mean msgstr or msgid?
18:09	kados	interesting
18:09	slef	paul: is it possible to restructure?
18:10	paul	would be OK with mod_perl
18:10	slef	and would having all libraries supporting all languages seen as worth the effort?
18:10	paul	as the .po file would be in memory
18:11	kados	as long as it doesn't hinder performance I see it as a good thing
18:12	indradg	I am wondering what kind of performance over-heads might be involved in a "on-the-fly" process
18:12	kados	though I"m still not clear on the specifics of how it works
18:12	slef	Other than that, what do people see as the reasons why translations seem to die away?
18:12	kados	template designers don't implement the languages into their tempalte would be #1 on my list
18:13		koha 1.2 had like 4 or 5 language IIRC
18:13	Nick	(were all of them really fully supported?)
18:13	rach	1.2 was quite simple compared to koha now
18:14		so perhaps overall complexity makes it harder to do?
18:14	Genji	so... template files are going to have msgid's instead of actual text?
18:14	indradg	i have a question here
18:14	rach	And I think Koha is changing more quickly at the moment - we had a year or so of it being quite stable
18:15		when people had time to do the translations, and they "lasted"
18:15	slef	Genji: that would be the aim, and to create a vocab for translating.
18:15		(vocabulary, sorry)
18:15	kados	rach: right ... as folks come and fade there's no way to ensure that work lasts
18:15	slef	indradg: go ahead
18:15	rach	indradg - your question?
18:15		snap
18:16	indradg	this on the fly thing may work for LATIN based scripts... but in case of complex Asian script, CSS requirements may be different (as I noted working with Bengali)
18:16		right now.. with the admin-set LANG param its easy to force a new CSS
18:16	chris	good point
18:16	slef	ok, it seems on-the-fly isn't realistic during 2.3?
18:16		as I have no good answer to that one!
18:17	hdl	very Good, if we²are to work with arabic folks
18:17	kados	anything more on internationalization?
18:17	chris	i think the problem and the advantage with html::template is
18:17		its very flexible
18:17	slef	kados: when is 2.4.0's target date and who is translation coordinator?
18:18	indradg	right now Govt of India is considering Koha for 500 schools across India...if that comes thru they will need the support  for Hindi along with EN of course  in the UI
18:18	kados	slef: don't have solid answers to either of those yet
18:18	rach	I think we need a volunteer for translation coordinator
18:18	kados	slef: but I think a rough date is 2006-01-01
18:18	slef	all, does someone with good experience of po want to volunteer?
18:18	chris	that'd count me out
18:19	Genji	woooo.. Koha will take the world by storm!
18:19	slef	chris: if no po guru wants it, do you, then?
18:19	indradg	I can volunteer... I have been a member of BN L10N project and currently the project lead for bn.openoffice.org project
18:19	rach	lol
18:19	indradg	:)
18:19	kados	:-)
18:20	Nick	chris?
18:20	chris	yes?
18:20	JohnN	I think that each language should have a coordinator.
18:20	Nick	no, we're all saved.  I've seen Chris's spelling.
18:20	chris	heh
18:20	indradg	hehe
18:20	rach	yes that is a good idea JohnN
18:20	slef	JohnN: of course. I think this is more l10n/i18n coordinator.
18:20	kados	JohnN: that sounds like a good idea
18:21		having one person to oversee the efforts might be a good thing
18:21	rach	so we need people to co-ordinate the actual translation for each language, and then an overall co-ordinator to make sure that's happening
18:21	kados	right
18:21	rach	a pyramid scheme
18:21	kados	I'd like to see a similar structure with template design ... but more on that later ;-)
18:21	slef	I'm finished on i18n. Sorry it's been a bit fuzzy. I'd hoped to have done more beforehand.
18:22	rach	or we need one person with no life who speaks 17 languages including po :-)
18:22	kados	hehe
18:22	rach	yes that would be the plan shaun
18:22	indradg	btw... I've completed abt 70% translation (Intranet) and OPAC (complete) for Bengali (bn_IN) will be committing it in shortly... so one more lang for Koha 2.4
18:22	kados	indradg: congrats!
18:22	slef	is kados's monthly town hall a good aim?
18:23	shaun	rach: can we arrange a time or would you like to send it out to the mailing list when you have decided?
18:23	chris	i think so slef
18:23	rach	It is, but we will want to have "working group" meetings as well where people can do the nity gritty discussions
18:23	kados	exactly
18:23	rach	and report back or something
18:23	slef	yeah, sorry for drifting OT
18:23	indradg	yes..  makes sense.... plus the bug triage day
18:24	rach	yep
18:24	Nick	randomly:
18:24	kados	and each project manager, the RM and the kaitaiki (if she wants) can attend those working group meetings
18:24	Nick	maybe premature, but it always comes up:
18:24	rach	yep
18:24	shaun	rach: yes, working group is good imo - how about using a different # to keep it organised?
18:24	Nick	who has resources they can volunteer for loading test copies?
18:24	kados	LibLime can host demos if that's what you're asking
18:24	Nick	cool
18:25	shaun	i have terabytes of space that i don't know what to do with...
18:25	rach	well - having it here is good, it's logged so if you can't make it/disagree with a decision you can read back and see why people got to where they did
18:25	hdl	demo.koha-fr.org is also volunteer
18:25	Nick	...remembering instances where we needed a copy to screenshot for documentation and never found a one running.
18:25	kados	yea ... this # isn't used that much so it shouldn't interfere to have meetings happen here
18:25		Nick: opac.liblime.com and koha.liblime.com should be pretty stable
18:26	shaun	kados: they running 2.2, i presume?
18:26	kados	Nick: for version 2.2 ...
18:26	indradg	i vote for #koha
18:26	Nick	wonderful.
18:26	Genji	k. gotta go. logging. laters.
18:26	kados	cya Genjo
18:26		Gengi even ;-)
18:26	indradg	ciao Genji
18:27	rach	OK one more thing
18:27		Koha Website - which is horribly out of date, and lacking in polish, shine, general goodness
18:27	shedges	(lots of grenn, though)
18:28		green even
18:28	rach	you want to make a new site shaun?
18:28	slef	What happened to the webmaster suggested last time, JOOI?
18:28	rach	they made some changes, but didn't make them public
18:28	russ	slef - i meet with mikem, fiona and rach p
18:28	shaun	I want to/would like to... ah, theres a good one "I feel it is in the interest of Koha in general to make a new website" :p
18:28	russ	who were going to take over the site maintanece
18:29		and they made some changes
18:29	rach	ah well - we all think that, I want to know if you were offering to actually do it :-)
18:29	russ	but i think they have fallen off the radar
18:29	chris	so what we want is new site maintainers?
18:30	russ	yep
18:30		ok so what i have done
18:30	shaun	design is my background, as i said before - I could do a whole site in a style that is consistent with the latest katipo templates or ours (Ben and I), maybe even a blog ;-)
18:30	kados	it's a big job (as I've learned recently with liblime) there are graphics, text to be written, general design, etc.  Are we talking about a whole new website or just some maintennace on the current one
18:30	russ	is set up a queue for hte koah website in the Katipo Request Tracker
18:30		if you have changes for the current website
18:30	Nick	thick skin also required.
18:30	russ	you can email them to kohawebsupport.katipo.co.nz
18:30	Nick	zenlike patience.
18:31	shaun	rach: is it on katipo servers? can you do php?
18:31	rach	yes it is on the katipo servres
18:32		Shaun if you're keen to do a whole new site, can you do that on your own server - seperate to the current site
18:32		we can't just trash the current one
18:32	kados	agreed
18:32	rach	but I think that it does need a major overhaul, so we should do that in parallel
18:32	paul	guys, it's 1:30AM here. Do you have an objection if i go to bed ?
18:32	shaun	yes, but my server is the one in my conservatory, and it's on an adsl line...
18:32	chris	no problem paul
18:32		thanks for your time
18:32	shaun	jw: is there a reason for green?
18:33	kados	night paul
18:33		thanks!
18:33	rach	in the mean time the people who know stuff - send updated actual content through to us
18:33	shaun	yeh, night paul, thanks
18:33	rach	and we'll try and get the words sorted out
18:33	indradg	g'nite paul
18:33	rach	because we'll need that for a new site as well
18:33	shaun	ben can probably do the wording quite well...
18:34	rach	tahnk you paul
18:34	shaun	got any ideas for a concept? basic stuff here...
18:34	JYL57	rach, last hint : add quickly new links section with : wiki, kohadocs , really urgent !!
18:34	rach	well if ben wants to go through and send new content to the address up there that would be awesome
18:34	slef	Put some constraints on (URLs stay the same, motifs the same) but redo it all to be accessible and crisp.
18:34	rach	yes that counts as content for me JY
18:34	JYL57	Ok
18:34	russ	JYL57 - can you email that to kohawebsupport.katipo.co.nz
18:34	shaun	jw: is there a reason for green, was it just something you liked at the time?
18:34	russ	and i will make sure it gets done
18:35	nono	I go to bed too, and I promise, next time, I will be more "active" .
18:35	slef	Also acknowledge koha-fr, koha England, and any other kohas
18:35	rach	green - new, fresh etc
18:35	JYL57	russ : will try to write you a few lines...
18:35	rach	expected people to change it for their own libraries
18:35	Sylvain	bonne nuit paul_bed ;)
18:35	russ	cool thanks
18:35	JohnN	Good evening Paul ;) zzzzz
18:35	kados	youbeeh: where's the actual problem happening?
18:35	shaun	hmm, it isn't that fresh any more though, how long has that site been going for?
18:35	kados	oops ... sorry
18:35	JYL57	leaving now ! by all
18:36	shaun	bye
18:36	rach	shaun, if you want to do an alternate design just go ahead and do it
18:36	shaun	will do
18:36		so can we go through and do an allocation of tasks for the website?
18:37		I'll do the design and try to implement the blog, and make it good to accompany the 2.4 release with a similar style etc,
18:37	indradg	cool
18:37	rach	shaun you can give that a go
18:38	shaun	I will host the testing site and then transfer it over to katipo to host it (but i don't know who gets credit for it)
18:38	kados	sounds good to me
18:38	shedges	shaun, would you be able to post links to koha-devel as you work?
18:38	rach	I'll come clean though - if I don't like it it won't go up :-)
18:39		so do lots of consultation/showing what you're up to before you get heavily into coding would be my advice
18:39	shaun	yes, I'll post them up
18:39	indradg	rach, u rock! :)
18:39	rach	even if it's just with me :-)
18:39	shaun	russ, what background are you from? library science, programming design, etc?
18:39	russ	project manager
18:39		and i did the design for the current site
18:40	rach	so shaun it's a big ask to do the koha website, many of us have businesses that depend on it
18:40	russ	a couple years back
18:40	rach	that is not a defence of the current site, but means we'll all want a say in a new one
18:40	russ	yep
18:41	kados	yep ... I've had potential customers confused because the official site differs from liblime.com
18:41	chris	yep thats my biggest bugbear, the blatantly wrong content
18:41	indradg	hey I need to ask this now... who came up with the idea of the "friendly ghost" artwork?
18:41	Nick	the blobbies?
18:41	indradg	yes
18:41	rach	ah that would be me and rosalie - they were used to illustrate a presentation, and kinda stuck
18:41	slef	There's just no way to contribute to koha world at the moment, as far as I can tell (not tried new email address yet).
18:42	rach	the map slef?
18:42	russ	koha world?
18:42	slef	www.koha.org
18:42	shaun	i will uproot them... unless you object, rach! :p
18:42	slef	I call it koha world to distinguish from koha france and koha england
18:42	rach	ah right
18:42	kados	IMO the blobbies are cute but not profession al ;-)
18:42	shaun	yeh, same here
18:42	russ	yeah we prolly need to move on from them
18:43	rach	Shaun, grab the list of people then who are interested in the website
18:43	chris	if we start sending content to kohawebsupport.katipo.co.nz
18:43	shaun	shout, people ^
18:43	rach	and lets start a discussion via e-mail - you start it off saying what you want to do
18:43		and we'll all pitch in :-)
18:43	slef	shaun!
18:43	chris	and lets start getting the content up to date
18:43	kados	sounds good to me
18:43	slef	in what format is koha wanted?
18:43		in what format is content wanted?
18:43	chris	russ?
18:44	russ	um i'll take it as it comes, plain text in an email is fine
18:44	slef	udiff against current source? What current source?
18:44	shaun	I plan on doing a total tidy of code as well (XHTML 1.0) btw
18:44	slef	oh ok
18:45	rach	alright, so we have russ in charge of tidying up the current site
18:45	russ	with a bit of an explanation of what is happening in behind the scenes
18:45	rach	and shaun starting a project for a new site
18:45	slef	russ: instructions on the web site and then email the list?
18:45	kados	anything else to discuss?
18:45	russ	yep - slef good idea - i'll get onto it
18:45	rach	We are now at general business :-)
18:45	SylvainZZ	good night/day all
18:45	shaun	I feel better about doing the koha site somehow... i was working on the oo.o redesign but they are closed-minded *doesn't have polite word to put here*
18:45	rach	well done all who made it this far
18:45	kados	hehe
18:46	hdl	night.
18:46	rach	nite
18:46	kados	so what exactly is 'general business'?
18:46	slef	if we can get monthly again, these should get shorter and quicker
18:46	rach	yes
18:46	indradg	rach, this is bloody endurance test ;)
18:46	rach	sorry indradg - it is a bit
18:46	indradg	rach, hey j/k :)
18:46	slef	shaun: I've tried to get a link for sxw2text on the oo.o site, but nyaaaaaaaaaaargh dead
18:47		rach: use +m for extreme cases
18:47	shaun	how about purple for the site?
18:47	rach	General Business is basically the opportunity for chatting about anything else needed - that didn't make it onto the agenda :-)
18:47	chris	shaun i suggest you organise a website meeting
18:47	slef	(moderated channel and then hand out +v to the person/people with the floor, opening it again as needed)
18:48		chris++
18:48	shaun	heh, i laugh at the oo.o website people now... look how it turned out... urgh!
18:48	rach	shaun - when we do design here we start with black and white
18:48	shaun	yes, i will send a message out to the mailing list tomorrow
18:48	rach	to get the style and the content correct
18:48		and then add colours etc
18:48	Nick	important note:
18:49		spelling!
18:49		as in US-English vs Commonwealth.
18:49	kados	Nick: good point nick
18:49		it would be nice if we were consistant
18:49		looks more professional that way
18:49		I don't have a preference which we pick
18:49	chris	consistent ?
18:49		:)
18:49	kados	hehe
18:49	slef	consistently en_EN ;-)
18:49	shaun	go for commonwealth, +1 to slef
18:50	kados	well I can't spell to save my life
18:50		but I use spellcheck for everything but IRC
18:50	indradg	lol
18:50	shaun	kados: maybe you're going to die... :D
18:50	kados	hehe
18:50	chris	i dont mind either
18:50	shaun	what do you use in nz?
18:50	chris	en_EN
18:50	rach	Pat used to think that the Americans liked the English spelling
18:51	chris	for the most part
18:51	shaun	favorite/favourite etc
18:51	kados	yep
18:51		I think that's true
18:51	slef	then again, stuff like s and z is a dispute in England anyway
18:51	chris	cept when we slip maori words
18:51	kados	it's elegent
18:51	chris	in
18:51	slef	depending whether you believe the old farts at the OED or not
18:51	shaun	how about keeping maori words in <i> or <em>?
18:51	Nick	could we at least shoot for consistent in the same page :)
18:51	slef	kados: 4 centuries out of date!
18:52	chris	thats a fair goal
18:52	kados	hehe
18:52	rach	:-)
18:52	Nick	(...thinking of early versions of the FAQ, which blended all over the place)
18:52	chris	yep
18:52	kados	let's stick with en_EN for thw whole site
18:52	Nick	incidental item:
18:52	shaun	ok
18:52	Nick	we might also try to agree on (rough) styles for technical stuff.
18:52	shaun	en_GB
18:53	slef	I suspect it's GE
18:53	shaun	GB
18:53	Nick	ie differentiated fonts/text style for snippets from apache.conf etc.
18:53	slef	depends if you believe in "Britain"
18:53	Nick	er httpd.conf
18:53	indradg	hmmm ... LC_LOCALE=C ? ;)
18:53	kados	well unless there's anything else pressing I'm gonna jet
18:53	chris	yep me too
18:53		i gotta go test drive a car
18:54	shaun	never heard of "Great England" slef...
18:54	kados	have fun
18:54	rach	hope you don't have to start work in an hour or so indrag, and get some leep
18:54	Nick	(fear for Wellington's citizenry)
18:54	rach	sleep
18:54		have you seen chris drive then nick?
18:54	Nick	I think someone mentioned it once maybe.
18:54		also, not unusual for techie types to Drive Fast.
18:54		why?
18:54	chris	ill have you know i was the champion of Daytona at the Fitz (student pub) when i was university
18:55	slef	shaun: I know. The codes are odd, if I remember correctly.
18:55	shaun	oh dear... 'tis my recital tomorrow...
18:55	chris	at university
18:55	Nick	? Daytona?
18:55	shedges	wow, what a meeting...
18:55	Nick	that's here....
18:55		wait:  arcade game?
18:56	rach	yep
18:56	shedges	cya, all
18:56	Nick	game physics I will note different from real physics.
18:56	rach	Meeting officially Done
18:56	Nick	indeed.
18:56	rach	Back to random chatting :-)
18:56	shaun	great...
18:56	Nick	also, no additional lives in real physics.
18:57	chris	subaru forester
18:57		so a station wagon :)
18:57	indradg	well ppl... will see u all later... need some shut-eye now!
18:57	shaun	hehe
18:57	russ	ah note very daytona like then
18:57	chris	cya indradg
18:57	shaun	bye
18:57	Nick	oh dear.
18:57	rach	poor indragd - it's 5.30am for him
18:58	Nick	gnight in'
18:58		g'bye all... also should go.
18:58	shaun	i was up at 4:00 in the morning once on #... the next day in school was mildly amusing
18:59		bye nick
18:59	Nick	have fun all.
18:59	rach	see ya nick
18:59	Nick	good to make it, fun as always/thanx all.
18:59		over and out.
19:00	shaun	how many people here are still observing the meeting?
19:00	rach	a few will be - our lot are all back to work, so they'll see stuff that goes by
19:00		mmm lunch time
19:01	youbeeh	bye all. thanks for all... i'll write an email to the list hopping your help for my koha 2.2 z3950 problem.
19:01	shaun	lunch time?! i don't have the energy to go upstairs to bed :\
19:01	rach	well done for making to the end
19:01	slef	wow, that was time wasted
19:01		apparently ISO country code for England is GB-ENG
19:01	shaun	cya youbeeh
19:02	slef	but then again, they label Wales as GB-WLS rather than CYM which I'm sure would be really popular in parts of it ;-)
19:02	rach	so is there a GB-SCO for scotland?
19:02	shaun	the code that people use (keyboard layouts, documentation languages etc) is en_GB, same with en_US
19:02	slef	rach: GB-SCT, GB-NIR, GB-GSY, GB-JSY, GB-IOM
19:02	shaun	co_CO is cornwall :D (only means anything if you live in devon, that one)
19:03	slef	shaun: what no kw?
19:04	shaun	that's to the outsiders... kw_KW is the internal code...
19:04	rach	it's a strange wee set of islands
19:04	shaun	indubitably.
19:04	slef	(for those abroad, Cornish (Kernewek?) is another Celtic language)
19:05		hey, does Ben break out in dialect? That would be cool. Don't find much Northants online.
19:06		http://www.desboro.net/information/language.htm
19:07	shaun	Ben is not somebody who really has an obscure accent... which i suppose means that he has the same accent as me, and he also talks using unnecessarily elongated vocabulary during rational conversation.
19:09		*coughs* nerd
19:10		;-)
19:11		hmm, maybe we can arrange a website meeting for this time next week... we can't satisfy everybody, as always
19:11		or the same time, ie 9 GMT
19:12		If nothing I say makes sense, it's because tired.
19:12		*I'm* tired
19:13		*embarrassed, goes to bed*
19:13		night all
19:57	JohnN	night all!
20:39	Genji	back
21:08	tungsten	h
02:27	paul	hdl, bonjour. Pile au même moment !
02:27	hdl	Oui.
02:27		On s e voit ?
02:27	paul	si tu veux.
02:27		("pas connecté" ?)
02:28	hdl	j'ai essayé en même temps que toi.
02:28		Je rentente.
02:28	indradg	good morning friends
02:29	hdl	hi indradg
02:46	michael	so did your french friends sleep OK?
02:46		your = our
02:49	hdl	quite good.
02:52	paul	quite not enough michael ;-)
03:05	Sylvain	hi !
03:06		ah je prends connaissance de tes updates au CVS paul, ça m'a l'air plutot cool sur les membres :)
05:50	michael	night all
08:06	Sylvain	paul tu es la ?
08:06	paul	vivi
08:07	Sylvain	une petite question que je me pose en lisant ce qui s'est dit hier soir, c'est quoi le "foraging opac" dont tu parles à propos du SAN ?
08:23	paul	sylvain : c'est "opac à la yahoo"
08:23		par navigation dans le catalogue, pas par recherche.
08:23	Sylvain	ok, opac à la yahoo ça me parle plus ;)
08:23		comme pmb en fait ;)
08:25	paul	oui. mais en mieux 8-)
08:26	Sylvain	j'imagine :)
09:08	owen	Hi hdl
09:13	paul	(hdl, tu peux m'appeler en visio STP ?)
09:13		'morning owen.
09:19	hdl	hi owen
09:30	kados	hi all
09:30	paul	Hi boss ;-)
09:30	kados	hehe
09:31	paul	did you plucene script finish ? could you do some tests ?
09:31	kados	yep ... that's on my list for today
09:31		I've got some bugs to look at first though
09:32	paul	did you give a try to my item problem suggestion ?
09:32		(or is it on top of your list ?)
09:32	kados	that's the first bug ;-)
09:32		actually, owen is better able to test it since he's been looking at the parameters lately
09:33		owen: here's what paul said yesterday to me:
09:33		i've a customer that had a problem that sounds similar to yours --  one subfield mapped to tab 10
09:34		so, he had 2 fields into tab 10 (item) and that confuses Koha
09:34		AND there is a bug in checkmarc checkmarc.pl says "everything OK" where it is not
09:34		the result was :
09:34		* "false items"
09:35		* impossible to modify correctly an item
09:36	Sylvain	I've a little question if someone has an idea. Right now, I'm looking at creating a biblio from a marc record in the breeding (for acqusitions purpose) . My problem is that I can't figure how to manage the encoding of the record. When you create a biblio in Catalogue section, the marc record is decoded in buildtab and then saved when user select save but I can't figure how to get the same thing without using the tabs
09:37		maybe not clear but if someone understands and has an idea :)
09:38	paul	there is no way i'm afraid. Maybe you should just create the biblio with NEWnewbiblio.
09:38	kados	paul: in MARC links, only one tag/subfield is mapped to itemnumber: 952u
09:39	Sylvain	yes paul but NEWnewbiblio doesn't take the encoding in parameter afaik
09:39	kados	(where is 'tab 10' in MARC links?) or am I in the wrong section?
09:39	paul	right sylvain. So, no idea.
09:39		kados : you are looking at "mapping", you should look at "tab"
09:40	Sylvain	it's what I was thinking paul, bad :(
09:40	paul	select * from marc_subfield_structure where tab=10
09:40	Sylvain	so it won't be for this weekI think
09:40	paul	if you get 952 and something else, then you've got your problem !
09:41		sylvain, you should probably parse the record "manually", & recreate it after decoding.
09:41		(some samples to parse a MARC::Record on this page :
09:41	kados	we have several 952s listed there: b, d, p, r, v, and y
09:41	paul	http://marcpm.sourceforge.net/MARC/
09:41		and nothing except 952 ?
09:42	kados	right
09:42	paul	bad news.
09:42		we haven't found your problems.
09:42	kados	:-(
09:42	paul	could you remind me what happends exactly ?
09:43		(sylvain : Doc/tutorial.html)
09:43	kados	sure ... when an item is added the itemnumber appears in the Koha tables but not in marc_subfield_table (in 952u)
09:43		meaning that it is impossible to further edit that item
09:44	Sylvain	I'll have a look Paul, I think parsing the record will be the solution :(
09:44	kados	http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=983
09:44	paul	select * from marc_subfield_structure where kohafield="items.itemnumber" says what ?
09:45		should say :
09:45		1 line per framework.
09:45		tagfield = 952, tagsubfield=9, tab=-1
09:45	kados	we have:
09:45		| 952      | u           | itemnumber   | itemnumber |          0 |         0 | items.itemnumber |   -1 |                  |                    |               | NULL    | NULL         |   NULL |  NULL |               | NULL |
09:46	paul	misses some sql columns isn't it ?
09:46	kados	so tagsubfield should be 9? not u?
09:46	paul	no, you're right
09:46	kados	looks like framework code isn't populated ...
09:46	paul	(it's 9 for me, but can be anything iirc)
09:47		(was $u for you in 2.0.0 anyway, isn't it ?)
09:47	kados	yep
09:47	owen	frameworkcode is blank by default
09:48	kados	paul, is something missing from this line?
09:49	paul	is your frameworkcode NULL ?
09:49		(is it last column ?)
09:49	kados	no it's blank
09:49	paul	sh...
09:49	kados	| tagfield | tagsubfield | liblibrarian | libopac    | repeatable | mandatory | kohafield        | tab  | authorised_value | thesaurus_category | value_builder | seealso | authtypecode | hidden | isurl | frameworkcode | link |
09:49		+----------+-------------+--------------+-----​-------+------------+-----------+-------------​-----+------+------------------+--------------​------+---------------+---------+-------------​-+--------+-------+---------------+------+
09:49		| 952      | u           | itemnumber   | itemnumber |          0 |         0 | items.itemnumber |   -1 |                  |                    |               | NULL    | NULL         |   NULL |  NULL |               | NULL |
09:50		ahh ... ok
09:50	paul	(probably an irc copy/paste problem
09:50	kados	tagsubfield = 952
09:50		oops
09:50		tagfield = 952
09:50		tagsubfield = u
09:50		liblibrarian = itemnumber
09:50		libopac = itemnumber
09:50		repeatable = 0
09:50		mandatory = 0
09:51		kohafield = items.itemnumber
09:51		tab = -1
09:51		authorized_value =
09:51		thesaurus_category =
09:51		value_builder = NULL
09:51		seealso = NULL
09:51		authtypecode = NULL
09:52		hidden = NULL
09:52		isurl =
09:52		frameworkcode =
09:52		link = NULL
09:52	paul	ok, let's look at Biblio.pm/NEWnewitem... (line 1332 for me)
09:52		my $item = &MARCmarc2koha( $dbh, $record,$frameworkcode );
09:53		the previous line builds the hash with items fields.
09:53		my $bib = &MARCadditem( $dbh, $record, $item->{'biblionumber'} );
09:53		the previous line insert the MARC value.
09:54		between thos lines, you have
09:54		# add itemnumber to MARC::Record before adding the item.
09:54		and, more important :
09:54		&MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
09:54		just after this line, add a :
09:54		warn "=>".$record->as_formatted;
09:54		& tell me if you have the itemnumber in 952u
09:55		also add a warn "=>".$itemnumber
09:55		;
09:55		to be sure you have the itemnumber before adding it to the MARC::Record
09:57	Sylvain	a little question : Is-it possible to configurate the framework in order to put the bibid in 001 for example ?
09:59	paul	the bibid ? no, it's not in the MARC::Record
09:59	Sylvain	euh, I've to see something
09:59	kados	paul: looks like not
09:59		=>LDR
09:59		952    _bAPL
09:59		_dAPL
09:59		_p32009900091087
09:59		_r12 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1353.
09:59		329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1354.
10:00	paul	and $itemnumber exists ?
10:00	kados	yep
10:00		that's this line:
10:00		329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1354.
10:00	paul	ok, good news.
10:00		means you have a problem in
10:00		my $sth =
10:00		$dbh->prepare(
10:00		"select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?"
10:00		);
10:00		&MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
10:02		go to
10:02		sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield {
10:02		add a warn "I'm here" just after
10:02		if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) {
10:03		(a warn "here : $tagfield / $tagsubfield"
10:03		should be better.
10:04	kados	it doesn't show up
10:05	paul	what ?
10:05		do a
10:05		warn "==> $frameworkcode,$kohafieldname" before the execute
10:06	kados	==> ,items.itemnumber
10:06		so frameworkcode isn't getting through for one
10:07		but that's NULL right?
10:08	paul	should not
10:08	kados	my ( $sth, $record, $kohafieldname, $value,$frameworkcode ) = @_;
10:08		&MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
10:08	paul	but it means the "select" returns nothing.
10:08		and it should not.
10:09		try the select manually
10:09		select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?"
10:10	kados	what is a value for kohafield?
10:10		ERROR 1064: You have an error in your SQL syntax.  Check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'and kohafield=' at line 1
10:11		when I leave both blank I get that error
10:12		so the problem must be that sql eh?
10:12	paul	not blank, don't forget the ''
10:12		select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode='' and kohafield='items.itemnumber'
10:12	kados	I see ...
10:12		432 rows
10:12	paul	432 rows ? is it a joke ?
10:12	kados	nope
10:12		here are some:
10:13		| 856      | w           |
10:13		| 856      | x           |
10:13		| 856      | y           |
10:13		| 856      | z           |
10:13		| 490      | a           |
10:13	paul	with kohafield='items.itemnumber' at the end of the sql request ?
10:13	kados	ahh ... nope
10:13		just 952 u
10:13	paul	ah... i prefer.
10:13		but we still don't have our culprit...
10:14		you have put the "warn" after
10:15		if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) {
10:15		and not after
10:15		if ( $record->field($tagfield) ) {
10:15		(in sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield {)
10:16	kados	it does not show up in either case
10:17	paul	mmm... look for an sql error ?
10:17		(just after the execute()
10:17	kados	well here's the problem
10:17		my $tagfield;
10:17		my $tagsubfield;
10:17		if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow )
10:17		tagfield and tagsubfield are empty
10:18		why would they = that sql row?
10:18	paul	yes, after the fetchrow
10:19	kados	ahh ... it's not == ... so it's just checking we have dbh
10:19	paul	(they are filled byt the $sth->fetchrow, and if not, nothing has been found, we have an error that we should trap)
10:19	kados	I get it now
10:20		so we need a || die errstr?
10:20		I'm not sure of the syntax to get the mysql error
10:20	paul	die errstr is maybe a little bit too hare.
10:20		hard
10:20		but we could.
10:20		die $dbh->errstr()
10:21		or just a } else {
10:21		warn "error in sub blabla : ".$dbh->errstr
10:21		]
10:21		}
10:21		on line 1018
10:21	kados	Global symbol "$dbh" requires explicit package name at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1008.
10:24	paul	$sth->errstr()
10:25	kados	strange :
10:25		error in sub blabla :  at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1025.
10:26	paul	so, no errors as expected.
10:26		but no results anyway...
10:27		10€ that the problem is in the framework content.
10:27		try a $frameworkcode='' just after the my () = @_;
10:27		and tell me if it works better.
10:27		(filling the frameworkcode with a correct value manually)
10:28	Sylvain	bye all !
10:30	kados	yay! it worked
10:31		so all of your libraries have frameworkcodes setup?
10:31		and that's why it isn't happening to you?
10:31		when there is no frameworkcode the problem happens ... should I update the bug report?
10:33	paul	nope
10:33		frameworkcode must me not null
10:33		& set to ''
10:34		for a reason i don't understand clearly, i think you have frameworkcode set to null
10:36	kados	I know why
10:36		(I think)
10:36		you told me to run:
10:36		update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode=''
10:37		update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode='';
10:37		after our upgrade
10:37		(after updatedatabase)
10:37		but maybe there is also another place to run this?
10:40		(which frameworkcode needs to be set to '' ?)
10:40	paul	(sorry kados, but i' had a deconnection)
10:40	kados	marc_tag_structure and marc_subfield_structure both have no null frameworkcodes
10:40		no problem ;-)
10:40	paul	(did i miss something you wrote ?)
10:41	kados	after our upgrade (after running updatedatabase) I had to run
10:41		update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode=''
10:41		update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode='';
10:41		is there another one to run?
10:41	paul	nope
10:41	kados	select * from marc_tag_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20;
10:41		Empty set (0.04 sec)
10:41	paul	insert a
10:41	kados	select * from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20;
10:41		Empty set (0.01 sec)
10:42	paul	warn " =$frameworkcode=";
10:42		(to see if it has a space in it)
10:42		(after the ()=@_;
10:42	kados	ok
10:43		== at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1002.
10:43		no space
10:45	paul	warn "UNDEFINED" unless defined $frameworkcode;
10:45		is UNDEFINED shown ?
10:47	kados	yes
10:47		my $frameworkcode=MARCfind_fr​ameworkcode($dbh,$bibid);
10:48		this is in Newnewitem
10:49		select frameworkcode from marc_biblio where bibid=?
10:49		that's the wrong query right?
10:49		select frameworkcode from marc_biblio limit 0,20;
10:49		| NULL          |
10:49		| NULL          |
10:49		| NULL          |
10:49		| NULL          |
10:49		| NULL
10:50		SO ... I DO need to run another update
10:50		to marc_biblio, right?
10:50		update marc_biblio set frameworkcode='';
10:50		??
10:51		select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is not null;
10:51		2097
10:51		select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is null;
10:52		144813
10:52		the 'not null' are blank
10:52		paul ?
10:59	slef	ooh, I'm still here
11:02	paul	kados, sorry, i was away for a minut.
11:02		you're right. You must not have a NULL frameworkcode anywhere
11:03		so "update marc_biblio set frameworkcode='' where frameworkcode is null" should do the job
11:03		and maybe a change in DB structure
11:03		to have frameworkcode not null default ''
11:04	kados	ok ... should I do a change in the DB structure for marc_subfield_table and marc_subfield_structure too?
11:04	paul	you should have done this before I think.
11:04		but if you don't, you can ;-)
11:04	kados	nope ... because I never understood the syntax ...
11:04	paul	you should have a phpmyadmin setup
11:05		as it's really user friendly
11:07	kados	alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode='';
11:07		is that right?
11:08	paul	nope.
11:08		alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode not NULL default '';
11:08		(not sure)
11:09	kados	ok ... thanks
11:09	paul	kados, is zed_koha_server.pl in CVS uptodate.
11:09		i've some problems with it with an UNIMARC DB
11:09	kados	yea ... I suspect the leader
11:09		you need to manually fill the leader I think
11:10		I'm not sure if the one in CVS is the latest ... I'll check on that
11:10	paul	what is your filling ?
11:10	kados	http://lists.katipo.co.nz/publ[…]/2004/002694.html
11:16		owen: you there?
11:16	owen	Yes
11:16	kados	we need to find all the null frameworkcodes
11:16		change them to ''
11:17		then update all the defaults to be '' for the table definition
11:17	owen	update marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode = '' where frameworkcode IS NULL?
11:18	kados	right ... but that doesn't handle the defaults right?
11:18		it's default NULL for some reason
11:18	owen	so we need to alter the table as well
11:18	kados	right
11:19		strange ... marc_subfield_table does't even have a frameworkcode
11:19	owen	No, I must be wrong about where it is
11:19		it's in marc_tag_structure
11:20	kados	and marc_subfield_structure
11:20		and marc_biblio
11:20		anywhere else?
11:20	owen	This is what phpMyAdmin suggests: ALTER TABLE `marc_tag_structure` CHANGE `frameworkcode` `frameworkcode` CHAR( 4 ) NOT NULL
11:20	kados	ok ... I'll try that on 101
11:21		seems to have run ok
11:24		strange ... on 101 edit items isn't working for me anymore
11:26		I can't delete items either
11:27		ahh ... just the ones that were added before the fix was applied
11:28		cool ... everything seems to be working now
11:28		I'm going to run this on production
11:29	owen	Great
11:30	kados	owen: do you know of any other places where there is a frameworkcode?
11:32	owen	I'm flipping through the tables on phpMyAdmin and I don't see it anywhere else
11:35	kados	cool
11:35		ok ... I'm gonna grab a bite to eat and then crack this renew/reserve bug