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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00 | aleisha | oh okay ! |
| 00:00 | the error is ZOOM error 20003 "can't set prefix query" | |
| 00:02 | dcook | I think that usually happens when there's nothing in an index? Admittedly I haven't seen that one myself. Just Googling.. |
| 00:02 | Let me see if there's a little workaround.. | |
| 00:02 | aleisha | hmm interesting |
| 00:03 | dcook | Let's see.. |
| 00:03 | Add @attr 14=1 to the very start | |
| 00:04 | Or rather... @attr 14=1 I guess | |
| 00:04 | Oh I said that. | |
| 00:04 | aleisha | heh |
| 00:04 | dcook | That will ignore uninitialized indexes |
| 00:04 | aleisha | @attr 14=1 @and @attr 1=Heading-Main @attr 5=1 @attr 4=6 "fish" @or @attr 1=Subject-heading-thesaurus @attr 3=2 @attr 4=1 @attr 5=1 @attr 6=3 "scisshl" @attr 1=Subject-heading-thesaurus @attr 3=2 @attr 4=1 @attr 5=1 @attr 6=3 "scot" like this? |
| 00:04 | huginn | aleisha: I'll give you the answer as soon as RDA is ready |
| 00:04 | wahanui | i already had it that way, huginn. |
| 00:05 | dcook | yep |
| 00:06 | aleisha | hmm that gets the same error |
| 00:07 | urra[m] joined #koha | |
| 00:07 | dcook | I had a feeling you were going to say that heh |
| 00:08 | aleisha | wish there was more documentation on the errors! |
| 00:09 | dcook | https://metacpan.org/release/N[…]ource/lib/ZOOM.pm heh |
| 00:09 | Looks like a fairly generic error | |
| 00:10 | Alas, I should switch to other things, but I'd say your query is OK. It'll be the Perl coding that you need to perfect. | |
| 00:10 | aleisha | thank you for your help!! |
| 00:10 | dcook | You're very welcome. Always good to review Zebra queries. |
| 00:10 | This is custom code now, right? | |
| 00:11 | aleisha | yes it is |
| 00:11 | dcook | Are you getting your Zconn from C4::Context or creating your own? |
| 00:12 | aleisha | not creating my own! |
| 00:12 | dcook | Koha's code is terrible when it comes to working with the ZOOM libraries too btw |
| 00:12 | aleisha | the query comes through as normal, im just amending it once it gets in |
| 00:12 | dcook | Ah, good ol' mangling hehe |
| 00:13 | aleisha | haha also the search stuff is different between biblio and authorities! very hard to troubleshoot |
| 00:13 | dcook | Yeah, that'll take some digging |
| 00:14 | I wish you luck. You can always use new ZOOM::Query::PQF->new() in an eval{} to see at what point the query is causing problems | |
| 00:15 | Whether it's before or after you alter it | |
| 00:15 | aleisha | okay thank you i'll use that |
| 00:17 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_19.11_U18 build #304: ABORTED in 12 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_19.11_U18/304/ |
| 00:29 | Project Koha_19.11_U20 build #202: SUCCESS in 23 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_19.11_U20/202/ | |
| 00:35 | Project Koha_19.11_D9 build #308: UNSTABLE in 29 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_19.11_D9/308/ | |
| 00:37 | Project Koha_19.11_D8 build #377: SUCCESS in 32 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_19.11_D8/377/ | |
| 00:43 | Project Koha_19.11_U18 build #305: ABORTED in 10 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_19.11_U18/305/ | |
| 00:51 | Project Koha_19.11_D10 build #146: SUCCESS in 43 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_19.11_D10/146/ | |
| 01:00 | Project Koha_19.11_U16 build #61: SUCCESS in 55 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_19.11_U16/61/ | |
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| 01:35 | koha-jenkins | Yippee, build fixed! |
| 01:35 | wahanui | Congratulations! |
| 01:35 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_19.11_U18 build #306: FIXED in 40 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_19.11_U18/306/ |
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| 07:18 | severine_q | good morning #koha :) |
| 07:26 | reiveune joined #koha | |
| 07:27 | reiveune | hello |
| 07:27 | wahanui | privet, reiveune |
| 07:27 | paul_p__ joined #koha | |
| 07:30 | alex_a joined #koha | |
| 07:30 | alex_a | Bonjour |
| 07:36 | did joined #koha | |
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| 09:21 | MarkHofstetter1 | Good morning, is it/should it be possible to add a guarantor to an existing patron, or is this forbidden by design? thx |
| 09:23 | cait1 | no it's possible |
| 09:23 | but it depends on the categories and such | |
| 09:24 | if you are offered the guarantor fields or not | |
| 09:28 | MarkHofstetter1 | I mean there may be very good reasons not to be able to change that, but it may be not userfriendly |
| 09:57 | cait1 | but you can change the guarantor :) |
| 09:57 | it's probably another reason you don't see it | |
| 09:57 | have you opened the record for editing? | |
| 10:04 | MarkHofstetter1 | yes |
| 10:28 | fridolin joined #koha | |
| 10:33 | eythian | ashimema: sorry, wasn't around yesterday |
| 10:33 | cm joined #koha | |
| 10:33 | cm | hi |
| 10:39 | ashimema | no worries eythian |
| 10:39 | I was going to ask if I was remembering rightly that your a bit of an email guru.. | |
| 10:40 | I think.. | |
| 10:40 | or maybe it was something else | |
| 10:40 | lol.. I've totally forgotten what it was | |
| 10:40 | how are you anyways eythian | |
| 10:41 | eythian | ashimema: I know the occasional thing about it :) and yeah, I see you added me to a bug about it, but it looks like it was resolved anyway. |
| 10:41 | ashimema: not too bad, just generally bored :) | |
| 10:45 | MarkHofstetter joined #koha | |
| 10:49 | shaffendi joined #koha | |
| 10:49 | shaffendi | hi hello |
| 10:49 | anyone here | |
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| 11:36 | oleonard | Hi #koha |
| 11:36 | * oleonard | finished testing, signing off, and following-up Bug 27846 and boy are my arms tired |
| 11:36 | huginn | Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=27846 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, wainuiwitikapark, Needs Signoff , Accessibility: Staff Client - Breadcrumbs should be more accessible |
| 11:36 | MarkHofstetter joined #koha | |
| 11:37 | oleonard | 4 follow-ups still waiting for signoff. |
| 11:52 | ashimema | nice one oleonard |
| 11:52 | that bug was already on my list | |
| 11:54 | kidclamp | ashimema++ |
| 11:54 | ashimema | pleasure kidclamp :) |
| 11:56 | kidclamp | oleonard++ |
| 11:56 | making me take responsibility for my code | |
| 12:01 | ashimema | oleonard |
| 12:01 | wahanui | oleonard is probably happy for ashimema to write the release script |
| 12:01 | ashimema | `and the last breadcrumb has bold text` in the test plan |
| 12:01 | I don't see that.. did you? | |
| 12:01 | oleonard | Oh actually I was going to comment on that... That's the one thing I would change |
| 12:02 | I don't like the bold (which I do see) | |
| 12:02 | ashimema | oh really |
| 12:02 | it doesn't go bold for me | |
| 12:02 | chrome? | |
| 12:02 | wahanui | rumour has it chrome is fine fox123 |
| 12:03 | oleonard | Haha then I broke something |
| 12:03 | ashimema | lol |
| 12:03 | oleonard | Give me a moment to look into it |
| 12:03 | ashimema | but.. you're saying you don't think it should be boldended? |
| 12:03 | I don't think it was prior to this was it? | |
| 12:03 | oleonard | It wasn't |
| 12:04 | ashimema | and I don't see the accessibility guideline saying it should be either |
| 12:04 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_20.11_U20 build #60: SUCCESS in 31 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_U20/60/ |
| 12:04 | ashimema | must admit.. I think it's a shame we loose the chevron |
| 12:04 | I liked that display queue | |
| 12:07 | oleonard | I'm not sure if that change was accessibility-related or not |
| 12:07 | * ashimema | wonders if we could add that back but use aria-hidden on it. |
| 12:07 | ashimema | the bold or the right pointing quote |
| 12:07 | oleonard | The dividers |
| 12:08 | ashimema | it's part of the guideline that's linked |
| 12:08 | they're borders instead of characters | |
| 12:08 | idea being a border isn't anounced by a screen reader | |
| 12:09 | oleonard | Is CSS content announced? |
| 12:09 | ashimema | but yeah.. I reckon we can achieve the same by adding aria-hidden to them |
| 12:13 | AndrewFH joined #koha | |
| 12:13 | oleonard | I have corrected my CSS patch so that it doesn't undo the bold breadcrumb |
| 12:14 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_20.11_U16 build #61: SUCCESS in 38 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_U16/61/ |
| 12:14 | ashimema | okies |
| 12:14 | right.. I'm going for a quick walk | |
| 12:14 | back shortly.. then I will continue here | |
| 12:24 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_20.11_U2010 build #55: SUCCESS in 51 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_20.11_U2010/55/ |
| 12:27 | Project Koha_20.11_D10 build #76: UNSTABLE in 54 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_D10/76/ | |
| 12:31 | Project Koha_20.11_D11 build #90: SUCCESS in 27 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_D11/90/ | |
| 12:40 | Project Koha_20.11_D9 build #78: SUCCESS in 1 hr 6 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]Koha_20.11_D9/78/ | |
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| 12:56 | cait1 | i think i would like it non-bold :) |
| 12:56 | oh | |
| 12:57 | scroll first! | |
| 12:58 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_20.11_U18 build #56: SUCCESS in 1 hr 25 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_U18/56/ |
| 13:00 | ashimema | It was made bold by the patchset.. oleonard then broke that so he fixed it back |
| 13:00 | but the question still stands.. should it be bold or not | |
| 13:00 | cait1 | i think as we have the heading on the page that is prominent |
| 13:00 | oleonard | I didn't want to reverse the intention of the original patchset without talking about it first |
| 13:00 | cait1 | i would not bold it |
| 13:00 | it seems a double up | |
| 13:00 | ashimema | thoughts on '/' vs '>' cait1 ? |
| 13:01 | cait1 | hm > |
| 13:01 | we have also used that in documentation and i think in the manual.... and i like the visual | |
| 13:01 | ashimema | me too |
| 13:01 | cait1 | i feel it's easier to read |
| 13:02 | not sure if there are any general recommendations we shoudl follow, but that would be my opinion right now :) | |
| 13:02 | ashimema | they changed it to '/' for accessability.. |
| 13:02 | but | |
| 13:02 | it's not an actual '/' | |
| 13:03 | it's a css border that's been tilted forward | |
| 13:03 | cait1 | hm |
| 13:03 | ashimema | the idea being.. as it's a graphical element rather than a character it won't get anounced by a screen reader |
| 13:03 | cait1 | but you could use css to add a > too |
| 13:03 | couldn't you? | |
| 13:03 | if it's just amatter of it not being read out lout | |
| 13:03 | ashimema | I think we can achieve the same with our > char, but adding in an 'aria-hidden' attribute on it. |
| 13:04 | cait1 | or that |
| 13:04 | ashimema | you can indeed add > with css |
| 13:04 | but I think if it's added as a character it still gets read out | |
| 13:04 | unless we mark it somehow not to be | |
| 13:06 | ooh.. | |
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| 13:06 | ashimema | it turns the text black too at the moment |
| 13:06 | oleonard.. was that the case before your patches too? | |
| 13:06 | bold and black | |
| 13:06 | I think I expected bold but still blue | |
| 13:11 | koha-jenkins | Project Koha_20.11_D11 build #91: SUCCESS in 39 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_20.11_D11/91/ |
| 13:20 | cait1 | they were black i think |
| 13:21 | ashimema | so, black but not bold |
| 13:21 | cait1 | yes? |
| 13:23 | * ashimema | checks out master and check |
| 13:23 | ashimema | so it was |
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| 13:29 | dersmon | hi! |
| 13:31 | ashimema | oh I see.. |
| 13:31 | caroline | so what is the final decision on the breadcrumbs? |
| 13:31 | ashimema | the current page is now an anchor |
| 13:32 | got anyone that uses a screenreader caroline? | |
| 13:32 | caroline | no :( |
| 13:33 | maybe we can ask our accessibility advocate? | |
| 13:33 | is it henry? | |
| 13:33 | ashimema | indeed |
| 13:35 | oleonard | In order to use "area-hidden" we'd have to add the separators as an html element |
| 13:35 | ashimema | in a quick test here.. simply adding them via css did the trick |
| 13:35 | oleonard | The advantage of the CSS solution is that it works just by adding the <li> for the breadcrumb |
| 13:36 | ashimema | the screen reader didn't pick them up |
| 13:36 | oleonard | ashimema: using css content? |
| 13:36 | ashimema | yup |
| 13:36 | I'm just adding my SO line now and adding the followup | |
| 13:36 | oleonard | What I found in my google searches was that screen readers sometimes do read them |
| 13:36 | So it's not really an option | |
| 13:36 | ashimema | but I'm going to ask for a second check with the screen reader they're using at catalyst |
| 13:36 | just to make doubly sure | |
| 13:37 | ack.. | |
| 13:37 | oleonard | There are CSS alternatives, though, so we just need to find the right thing http://jsfiddle.net/kevinkirchner/DQruj/ |
| 13:38 | (that example uses markup, but I'm sure we can find something right) | |
| 13:40 | ashimema | good call |
| 13:45 | were you going to have a go at that oleonard..? | |
| 13:45 | oleonard | I will do some tests later today. Gotta disappear for a while. |
| 14:23 | Michael joined #koha | |
| 14:23 | MichaelKuhn joined #koha | |
| 14:25 | MichaelKuhn | Hi - I'm looking for a way to download the most current (but unreleased) version of "Email.pm" with alle the changes made via bug 26705. Is it possible? |
| 14:25 | huginn | Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=26705 major, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Passed QA , System preference NoticeBcc not working |
| 14:31 | cait1 | MichaelKuhn: yu can browse the repository via git |
| 14:31 | https://git.koha-community.org | |
| 14:31 | i am sure you can download it from there | |
| 14:31 | but i'd double check the patch for changes made to other files | |
| 14:32 | https://git.koha-community.org[…]ter/Koha/Email.pm | |
| 14:35 | cait joined #koha | |
| 14:36 | MichaelKuhn | Hallo Katrin - da war ich schon, aber da befindet sich offenbar nur die bereits veröffentlichte Version... ich habe nun die Änderungen händisch eingepflegt (seit gestern einige Male hin und her...). Trotzdem danke! |
| 14:36 | cait | MichaelKuhn: ah i see why |
| 14:36 | it hasn't been pushed yet | |
| 14:36 | MichaelKuhn | Weitere Änderungen gab es nur in der Datei "Email.t", welche aber offenbar nur für interne Test benötigt wird und auf dem Koha-System selber nicht vorhanden ist. |
| 14:37 | cait | vorhanden ist sie |
| 14:37 | MichaelKuhn | Yes, I thought so - not pushed |
| 14:37 | cait | aber sie wird im laufende Betrieb nicht ausgeführt |
| 14:37 | MichaelKuhn | But that's why I asked :) |
| 14:37 | cait | ja, da war mein Denkfehler - hatte es nicht gleich gesehen |
| 14:37 | MichaelKuhn | Email.t habe ich aber auf dem Koha-System nicht gefunden? |
| 14:37 | Gut... ich brauche sie ja auch nicht | |
| 14:38 | cait2 joined #koha | |
| 14:38 | cait2 | disconnect, vpn, sorry |
| 14:39 | vielleicht wurde sie mal umbenannt oder verschoben, generell müssten die .t Dateien mit den Unit tests aber auch volsltändig in den Tarballs bzw. Packages sein | |
| 14:39 | evtl, anderer Pfad | |
| 14:40 | MichaelKuhn | Ich habe eben nochmal mit "find / -name Email.t -print" gesucht - keine Datei "Email.t". Aber wenn sie natürlich einen anderen namen hätte kann ich sie nicht finden... |
| 14:46 | * ashimema | schoolboy german isn't up to following that. |
| 14:51 | teertha joined #koha | |
| 14:59 | cait2 | ashimema: discussing if the Email.t is in packages or not |
| 14:59 | i don't think we are leaving files out, do we? | |
| 15:08 | teertha | kia ora #koha |
| 15:10 | My name is Teertha this the first time i am getting into koha. | |
| 15:11 | working as a junior librarian i am facing some problem in serial module. | |
| 15:12 | can anyone please help me understand the purpose and functionality of Display Order in managing frequencies of issue? | |
| 15:13 | @seen cait2 | |
| 15:13 | huginn | teertha: cait2 was last seen in #koha 13 minutes and 56 seconds ago: <cait2> i don't think we are leaving files out, do we? |
| 15:16 | caroline | teertha: it's to control the order in which the frequencies appear in the drop-down menu |
| 15:16 | 0 is the top position | |
| 15:16 | so If there is a frequency that you use a lot, you can put 0 as display order and it will appear at the top so you don't have to look for it | |
| 15:18 | teertha | @caroline: so basically jusr sorting and kind of bookmarking for quick access? |
| 15:18 | huginn | teertha: downloading the Perl source |
| 15:19 | teertha | @huginn forget perl source |
| 15:19 | huginn | teertha: downloading the Perl source |
| 15:19 | caroline | it's just for sorting |
| 15:24 | teertha | caroline: thanks :) |
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| 15:45 | did joined #koha | |
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| 15:59 | caroline | Do any of your clients share one copy of an ebook for many sites? |
| 16:00 | One of my clients is looking at how to indicate that an ebook "item" is the property of multiple branches | |
| 16:01 | she says right now they create one "item" per branch but she says it doesn't reflect the actual number of items | |
| 16:34 | oleonard | caroline we do that but then we alter the display so that it doesn't look like an item |
| 16:35 | https://search.myacpl.org/cgi-[…]&limit=ccode:DNLD | |
| 16:58 | fridolin joined #koha | |
| 16:59 | fridolin left #koha | |
| 17:11 | cait2 | oleonard: haen't been on your catalog in a while - looks really pretty |
| 17:11 | oleonard | Thanks! |
| 17:12 | cait2 | we usually try to avoid items... |
| 17:12 | putting the link in the record with a link text | |
| 17:12 | and then also moveit to holdings with jquery if people want to | |
| 17:12 | or otherwise highlight it visually | |
| 17:13 | ok, i gotta go outside for a little bit, bye all | |
| 17:14 | cait2 left #koha | |
| 17:18 | reiveune | bye |
| 17:18 | reiveune left #koha | |
| 19:01 | thd joined #koha | |
| 19:59 | oleonard | No Joubu eh |
| 20:00 | thd | Only monitor of Joubu |
| 20:00 | cait joined #koha | |
| 20:00 | oleonard | Oh I missed him on my list |
| 20:01 | Hi cait | |
| 20:01 | Not sure who all is here for a meeting | |
| 20:02 | caroline | I'm vaguely around... I had an action from last meeting (because I wasn't there lol!) |
| 20:02 | thd | oleanard: Do you have any experience running multiple versions of PHP on the same webserver in different virtual hosts? |
| 20:02 | mkuhn joined #koha | |
| 20:02 | cait | i'd be her |
| 20:02 | e | |
| 20:02 | mkuhn | #info Michael Kuhn, Switzerland |
| 20:02 | cait | i tihnk it hasn't been started yet? |
| 20:03 | mkuhn | Hello cait, long time I didn't see you here :) |
| 20:03 | oleonard | thd: No I don't |
| 20:03 | cait | new nick? ;) |
| 20:03 | mkuhn | well, old nick |
| 20:04 | cait | I think Joubu mentioned he would be away for some time end of month |
| 20:04 | not sure if that is now already | |
| 20:04 | * cait | tries the bettlejuice trick |
| 20:04 | cait | Joubu Joubu ... Joubu |
| 20:04 | thd | I was trying to enable current old version and fully updated versions of the wiki to run on the same server. |
| 20:06 | mkuhn | If he was called Louis you could call for Louisssssssss (as in Jackie Brown) |
| 20:07 | cait | it might ont be working |
| 20:08 | mkuhn | @thd: was ist successful? I run my own Mediawiki software, but only one version at once (because of dependencies etc) |
| 20:08 | cait | do we have a lot of new stuf fon the agenda? i am going ot check |
| 20:08 | huginn | mkuhn: downloading the Perl source |
| 20:08 | mkuhn | I'm here because of the wiki thing |
| 20:08 | cait | https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]ing_14_April_2021 |
| 20:08 | we don't have new thing slisted | |
| 20:08 | but maybe you 2 could talk off-meeting and share on the mailing list? | |
| 20:09 | mkuhn | Caroline Cyr-La-Rose wrote the wiki question is often on the Development IRC meetings agenda, she mentioned this date today |
| 20:10 | thd | After the last meeting I discussed with Joubu how he had missed character encoding and MediaWiki support issues in transfering data between Postgres and MySQL. |
| 20:10 | caroline | glad to know my email got some attention :D |
| 20:11 | mkuhn | I'm running Mediawiki with MariaDB (Mysql), never tried Postgresql |
| 20:11 | thd | I had basically solved the wiki issue at the end of 2019 but 2020 killed my time. |
| 20:12 | cait | i'll be off for a while - been a long day (training again) cya later all |
| 20:12 | thd | Yesterday, I had my first COVID-19 vaccine so I am becoming safer and just dropping everything to support whatever peple want to do with the wiki. |
| 20:13 | mkuhn | I just saw someone would like to chnage the software so I was asking myself what is exactly the goal of it? |
| 20:14 | thd | mkuhn: So you have not tried multiple versions of PHP on the save server in different virtual hosts. |
| 20:14 | mkuhn | Will, for example, a stricter regime be implemented with the new wiki regarding the addition of new articles, their quality, their currentness and their linking to other articles? |
| 20:14 | Will some or all data be transferred to the new wiki? Will all the URL change so nothing is findable anymore und their known URL? (except thru the Wayback machine) | |
| 20:14 | thd | mkuhn: No less strict. |
| 20:14 | mkuhn: Let me explain the history. | |
| 20:15 | mkuhn: When the ecomony went bad last time circa 2009 there was a community problem with LibLime where people in charge were especially worried about sharing with the community. | |
| 20:15 | mkuhn | My main concern would be that some data will be lost, all the URL will change etc. so people (like me) won't find things anymore |
| 20:16 | thd | mkuhn: I put enormous effort into ensuring that nothing will be lost. |
| 20:16 | caroline | mkuhn: I think the plan is to still have the current wiki available, but archived |
| 20:16 | cait | yes |
| 20:16 | caroline | the info that is still relevant would be transferred to the new wiki |
| 20:16 | cait | it will just change to ol-dwiki or something |
| 20:17 | i really think w eneed to loose some stuff :) | |
| 20:17 | mkuhn | If the data and the URL of the current data will be kept, I will be happy |
| 20:17 | cait | Joubu suggested redirecting/forwarding for th emost prominent pages - sql reports etc. |
| 20:18 | thd | At the least I intend to fix the archive so that the archive will not be running out of date software and can move forward over time. |
| 20:18 | mkuhn | Maybe the new wiki could just be called else, so the old URLs could stay. I find it VERY annoying when large site change their URLs and you can't find anything anymore (like the Geman National Library did, for example, and many others, that should know better) |
| 20:19 | cait | I think if we make sure we have the better and easier to find information in a new wiki, i think that would be better |
| 20:19 | but we will figure it out | |
| 20:19 | i actually wanted to get some reading in :) so leaving now for real | |
| 20:19 | mkuhn | But this would mean there must be a stricter regime... otherwise the new wiki will end up liek the current one |
| 20:20 | thd | mkuhn: We ended up with what we had not appreciated was only experimental support for Postgres when choosing that database for MediaWiki. |
| 20:20 | mkuhn: Any wiki will have outdated content over time. | |
| 20:21 | mkuhn | Sure, but then I don't see no need for a change? If nothing will change? |
| 20:21 | thd | mkuhn: What is import is to be able to find what is current. |
| 20:21 | We need to test various options. | |
| 20:21 | mkuhn | Yes, agree... but this usually needs a stricter regime... |
| 20:22 | caroline | mkuhn: the need to change is that the mediawiki version we run is out of date and it's too complicated to upgrade it |
| 20:22 | (from what I understand) | |
| 20:22 | mkuhn | Even with outdated and old stuff in it, the current wiki is THE Koha source, for me... and sometimes even old/outdated stuff is useful |
| 20:23 | Hm, okay... it is really a very old version | |
| 20:23 | caroline | I'm talking about the software itself, not the information |
| 20:23 | thd | mkuhn: The problem we arrived at by accident was in 2009 in the wake of lack community cooperation the old wiki went down and the untested test implementation of MediaWiki became the only thing.\. |
| 20:23 | It is not too complicated to upgrade. | |
| 20:24 | I may have an upgraded copy at this time next week. | |
| 20:25 | It was complicated because it definitely required a lot of work. | |
| 20:25 | mkuhn | This would be great, in my case I was always able to upgrade my mediawiki versions (though I didn't ever wait so long) |
| 20:25 | thd | The problem was never waiting too long. |
| 20:25 | mkuhn | I see it is Mediawiki 1.16, uhuuh |
| 20:25 | thd | The problem was choosing the wrong database, Postgres, to test. |
| 20:26 | mkuhn | OK, I don't see that from the outside, as I said I always used MariaDB (Mysql before) |
| 20:27 | caroline | Along with the software upgrade, I think the couple of us who had volunteered to clean up the wiki were a bit too daunted to clea it up, hence the suggestion to open a new one and just transfer what we know is correct and go from there |
| 20:27 | mkuhn | 1.16 was released in 2010 |
| 20:28 | thd | mkuhn: Postgres seemed a more standards compliant choice and we had not found the documents stating that Postgres was not well supported. |
| 20:29 | In any wiki we may need to add some tag to pages marking those as current and a different tag to other pages marking those as outdated. | |
| 20:29 | mkuhn | I understand, Postgres was hyped by some, but it never ever got where Mysql/MariaDB is now |
| 20:31 | This could be done with a header in each article - but someone would have to maintain these tags | |
| 20:31 | thd | MySQL AB took the deliberate choice of not following some standards to pressure companies into buying proprietary licenses. |
| 20:31 | mkuhn: A header would be created magically by an extension. | |
| 20:32 | mkuhn: Yes maintaining the tags is important. | |
| 20:32 | mkuhn | Yes, but still it is good software - of course I prefer MariaDB |
| 20:32 | Maintanining is more regime than now | |
| 20:33 | thd | With appropriate tagging even minimally for current searches could automatically avoid out of date content. |
| 20:34 | mkuhn | What exactly is out of date? Some people are still using Koha 3.22 or older, as I see in the mailing list |
| 20:35 | thd | mkuhn: You correctly identify but one of many reasons that old content should be well preserved. |
| 20:35 | mkuhn | Sometimes I am very happy to find old information about not so current versions that people ask me about |
| 20:35 | Yes, as I said - if everything is preserved with the current/unchanged URL I am happy with everything else | |
| 20:36 | OK, and I admit - I almost never go into the history of wiki pages, so that content could be deleted (as far as i am concerned) | |
| 20:37 | thd | mkuhn: The problem is that we have issues such as multiple pages with installation instructions which are not distinguished as to which applies to the current version and uninformed users can become confused. |
| 20:38 | mkuhn | I know that problem, but I can only see a solution with that by a stricter regime... more maintenance... |
| 20:38 | Who will do that? Who will want to do that? | |
| 20:38 | thd | mkuhn: People use different names for the same function and one does not see what the other has done. |
| 20:38 | caroline | mkuhn: are you volunteering :D |
| 20:38 | thd | mkuhn: It can all be done with tagging pages. |
| 20:39 | mkuhn | Only if I had the time... or only for a defined set of pages... |
| 20:39 | thd | The number of pages is relatively small. |
| 20:39 | caroline | it's the same for everyone... no one has time to work on this, hence the current state |
| 20:40 | mkuhn | Yes, different names for different functions... I struggle with that problem even in the Koha software itself - where it is even worsened by inconsistent translations |
| 20:41 | thd | The bigger problem as ashima stressed to me a few years ago is migrating the database so that extensions which support faceted tags/categories will even work. |
| 20:43 | mkuhn | So this means newer mediawiki software supports a better way of tagging? I don't know about that... I still use categories and links in my own installations, ols skool |
| 20:44 | thd | mkuhn: No MySQL based MediaWiki allows Semantic MediaWiki and many other extensions to run which fail command line tests under Postgres. |
| 20:45 | mkuhn | OK, I have never implemented Semantic MediaWiki - sounds great (if there is someone who understands how to do it :) |
| 20:46 | There are sooo many extensions for Mediawiki - and I have tested and used a lot... | |
| 20:46 | thd | mkuhn: In circa 2009, when the old Dokuwiki went down with LibLime non-cooperation with the community we had not tested enough to discover that command line checks for some things would fail with MediaWiki under Postgres. |
| 20:47 | mkuhn | What do you mean with "command line checks"? |
| 20:49 | thd | mkuhn: When installing extensions there can be various command line procedures to ensure that everything is running correctly for some extensions to validate the installation. |
| 20:50 | mkuhn: Such checks are not universal but depend upon the extension manager to write them. | |
| 20:51 | mkuhn: We do not necessarily need Semantic MediaWiki even if it would be nice but we need extensions to generally work and not merely the subset which happens to work fine under Postgres. | |
| 20:52 | mkuhn | I'm fine with going away from Postgres |
| 20:53 | thd | mkuhn: MediaWiki documentation circa 2008 2009 showed some commitment to database agnosticism but it was unsustainable for the MediaWiki community as a whole and never became anything other than an experiment. |
| 20:53 | mkuhn | Extensions generally do work if apllied to the correct version - the problem with some extensions is they are sometimes abandoned |
| 20:53 | thd | mkuhn: I have had success modifying extensions to work in more recent versions. |
| 20:55 | mkuhn | I remember someone wanted to write support for Postgres when using Koha - it never got anywhere. In my experience it was never a good idea to support everything. Because that always means someone has to maintain it and that's why it always ends the same way... |
| 20:56 | thd | mkuhn: One advantage in favour of possibly using Dokuwiki is that the software is much less complicated. However, there is also less help to be had from the much smaller Dokuwiki community fixing broken extensions for which the functionality is a core feature of MediaWiki. |
| 20:56 | mkuhn | However, I'm not exactly sure If I could help in some way, except in sharing opinions... |
| 20:57 | About Dokuwiki I would use it, but I sure wouldn't start installing, configuring, LEARNING it... | |
| 20:58 | thd | mkuhn: Supporting multiple databases should be easy if everything is abstracted to be written in a database agnostic manner and not specially written for each database. |
| 20:59 | mkuhn | The crucial thing here is the should, I guess. I heard that so many times but it never really happened. In the end one of the software pieces is king and the rest is released - untested... |
| 21:00 | thd | mkuhn: Dokuwiki like any software has some serious flaws which had frustrated me greatly. The biggest problem was really people were very poor at remembering to put a tag or a category on a newly created page. |
| 21:01 | mkuhn | That's human, it seems. That won't change in Dokuwiki, mediawiki, wahteverwiki. This can only be solved through regime - and people don't like that either... |
| 21:02 | For my part I wouldn't even be unhappy if nothing changes with the current wiki (but I see the technical problem of using software from 2010, old as the hills). | |
| 21:02 | thd | mkuhn: Dokuwiki has a tag extension which for some period allowed finding "orphan" untagged pages. However, that feature is reported to have been broken for a long period now. |
| 21:03 | mkuhn | In mediawiki you can find untagged pages in various ways, through the spcial page - no extensions needed |
| 21:04 | You can list all uncategorised categories, uncategorised pages, uncategorised templates etc etc | |
| 21:04 | thd | mkuhn: I had maintained an extension which forced people to choose a category for new pages but that was unpopular because the procedure needed for adding a new category slowed people down. |
| 21:04 | mkuhn | also orphaned files, orphaned categories, pages, templates etc |
| 21:05 | thd | mkuhn: Exactly, finding "orphans" is a core feature of MediaWiki but not Dokuwiki. |
| 21:05 | mkuhn | Yes I understand - people don't like regimes, they like to do what they want... |
| 21:05 | thd | In Dokuwiki most of the pages people had ever created had been lost. |
| 21:06 | mkuhn: The regime should never stand in people's way when they just want to create some content. | |
| 21:06 | mkuhn | As far as I'm concerned, Dokuwiki is not the way to go |
| 21:07 | thd | mkuhn: It is fine to let people create stuff and clean it later. |
| 21:07 | mkuhn | However, if the regime stands not before creating content, then at least the content should be maintained AFTER it has been created |
| 21:07 | But how does that? People don't like to do it | |
| 21:08 | who does that? People don't like to do it | |
| 21:09 | Also some people have very weird ideas how to "create content" (copy&paste for example) | |
| 21:09 | thd | mkuhn: Yes, but the best tools for moving forward with MediaWiki or even maintaining an archive of old stuff will not be available if it cannot be demonstrated upgraded to the current version with no data loss and migrated to MySQL. |
| 21:11 | mkuhn: I am going to go back to proving that the migration works without the data loss shortcut which Joubu took after going to the post office now. | |
| 21:11 | mkuhn | As I see in https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]i/Special:Version there are not so many extensions |
| 21:12 | But I never updated 1.16 to 1.35 - what a jump | |
| 21:13 | Btw some extensions are completely out of date, unmaintained, even archived | |
| 21:13 | thd | mkuhn: The core software should work find for upgrading in one jump. One merely sees each of the incremental and unavoidable error messages at once. |
| 21:14 | mkuhn: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki[…]sion?_In_one_step,_or_in_several_steps? | |
| 21:15 | mkuhn | Mediawiki 1.5 ?? Brrrr |
| 21:16 | "you can upgrade in one step, from your old version to the latest stable version" sounds good - then get rid of old extensions... and of course the database thing | |
| 21:17 | thd | mkuhn: MediaWiki 1.16 should have no problems. Semantic MediaWiki which never worked may have to be dropped and re-added. |
| 21:18 | mkuhn: The database thing is a solved problem for over a year but I need to check my work and write some automated tests for verification. | |
| 21:18 | * thd | goes to the post office |
| 21:19 | mkuhn | I'm now soon going to bed (it's 10 PM over here), so have a nice evening! |
| 22:13 | tuxayo | Shoots, I missed the meeting although I was free |
| 22:17 | caroline | tuxayo: don't worry, it didn't really happen |
| 22:17 | just a lot of dicussion about the wiki | |
| 22:17 | (informal) | |
| 22:17 | tuxayo | Good, things happened ^^ |
| 23:17 | did joined #koha |
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