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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:00 | |Lupin| | The field appears in the MARC record, but yaz-marcdump does not provide any content for it... |
| 12:08 | ah, fields with tags <010 ddo not have indicaors... | |
| 12:09 | chris | marc is retarded |
| 12:09 | collum | Just reading email from the listsrev. Should someone post that if help is asked from a specific company, that it's customary to pay them? :) |
| 12:09 | chris | i just basically said, if you dont know what cron is, you shouldnt really be looking after a linux box |
| 12:10 | and with those 2 pieces of snarkiness, i bid you all goodnight :) | |
| 12:13 | |Lupin| | hi chris |
| 12:13 | hdl_laptop | |Lupin|: 009 and all fields under 010 are accessed with $field->data |
| 12:14 | |Lupin| | could any body please give me a hint about how to display additional MARC fields ? |
| 12:14 | hdl_laptop | and to add field, MARC::Field->new($tag, $data) |
| 12:14 | Note No indicator, no subfield | |
| 12:14 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: yeah, that's more o less what I discovered in the documentation of themodule. A wéas not aware these fields were special. |
| 12:14 | hdl_laptop | sorry |
| 12:15 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: np, thanks! |
| 12:15 | hdl_laptop: when these fiels are present in a record, where do they show up in Koha ? | |
| 12:19 | hdl_laptop | all depends on your framework configuration. |
| 12:26 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: framework is "grille de catalogage" in french ? |
| 12:26 | hdl_laptop | yes |
| 12:26 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: ok, thanks. Will see how to add 009 |
| 12:35 | hi owen | |
| 12:35 | owen | Hi |
| 12:35 | |Lupin| | owen: I DID not forget the "skip to content" feature". Just a bit busy at the moment. |
| 12:38 | owen: ok | |
| 12:39 | hdl_laptop: I just modified the default framework and added some text to dsplay besides to field 009, same text for OPAC and staff client, but the field is not displayed... | |
| 12:39 | hdl_laptop: is there something else to change, pls ? | |
| 12:42 | hdl_laptop | have you checked 009 field was in database biblioitems.marcxml ? |
| 12:45 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: no, not yet. Let me see. |
| 12:46 | ebegin | |Lupin|, whn you edit the subfield, make sure you set the hidden (caché) value located in the « display more constraints » section |
| 12:47 | |Lupin| | ebegin: there is no subfield for the 009 field I 'm trying to display |
| 12:53 | ebegin | |Lupin|, when you edit your framework, you should have a Subfields link. Unless this is different in Unimarc. |
| 12:54 | |Lupin| | ebegin: you mean for each field ? |
| 12:54 | ebegin | yes |
| 12:54 | |Lupin| | cause 009 does not hae subfields in Unimarc |
| 12:55 | hdl_laptop | ebegin: same for USMARC 009 has no subfields |
| 12:55 | ebegin | |Lupin| hdl_laptop but the framework still have a Subfields link beside 009 |
| 13:02 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: sorry it tookme so long |
| 13:02 | hdl_laptop: <controlfield tag="009">58</controlfield> | |
| 13:03 | hdl_laptop | do you have 009 and subfield "@" (stands for no_subfields) in your "grille de catalogage" ? |
| 13:04 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: where should I look to see that ? |
| 13:04 | hdl_laptop: either in terms of web interfrace, or perhaps simpler, in terms of tables in the db | |
| 13:06 | hdl_laptop | admin/frameworks/ |
| 13:11 | |Lupin| | oh |
| 13:11 | now it's there | |
| 13:11 | hmm the field appears in the frawework | |
| 13:11 | but I don't see the "@" sign you were mentionning hdl_laptop | |
| 13:12 | hdl_laptop ebegin: still, there is the subfields link for this field | |
| 13:12 | ebegin | yes, but only for editing purpose. Click on it |
| 13:13 | Then click the Edit Subfields button | |
| 13:14 | Make sure you have a value in the Managed in Tab (usually 0) | |
| 13:14 | Click on the Display more constraints link (the first one) | |
| 13:14 | |Lupin| | actually I kcan see the @ hdl_laptop was mentionning |
| 13:15 | @ Ancien 001 sous-champ ignoré Supprimer | |
| 13:15 | munin | |Lupin|: downloading the Perl source |
| 13:15 | ebegin | haha... |Lupin| forget munin comment :) |
| 13:16 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 13:17 | ebegin | Set the hidden (caché) field to something like 4 (show Expanded in Intranet and Editor, don't show in OPAC) |
| 13:20 | |Lupin| | hmm |
| 13:20 | I'm not sure I can do that | |
| 13:20 | depends if it uses javascript or not | |
| 13:20 | cause I'm using lynx... | |
| 13:21 | ebegin | it does uses javascript... |
| 13:22 | s/uses/use/ | |
| 13:22 | |Lupin| | ebegin: I can see the "hidden (0)" thing |
| 13:22 | ah and I can modify the 0 | |
| 13:22 | ebegin: so you said 4 ? | |
| 13:22 | ebegin | Your option is to change it directly in the database then |
| 13:23 | |Lupin| | is the semantics fo the value documented somewhere ? |
| 13:23 | ebegin | in the help file linked to the page |
| 13:23 | |Lupin| | ebegin: actually lynx does not show a link |
| 13:23 | "(voir aide en ligne)" is not a link | |
| 13:24 | ebegin | http://pastebin.ca/1485657 |
| 13:25 | In the top right corner of your page, there is a ?, this is a contextual help | |
| 13:25 | |Lupin| | ebegin: hanks |
| 13:25 | ebegin: actually the submit button does not work :/ | |
| 13:27 | ebegin | that is strange. |
| 13:28 | |Lupin| | ebegin: no no it's not the first time that happens |
| 13:29 | ebegin: it's because these bttons are not simple buttons, they have onsubmit attributes that make they require js | |
| 13:30 | ebegin (or someone else): any hint which column in which ta ble to modify ? | |
| 13:31 | ebegin | marc_subfield_structure » hidden |
| 13:32 | |Lupin| | ebegin: ok, thanks !! |
| 13:45 | okay, I have modified the database and it does stillnot work, I think | |
| 13:45 | I can't see the 009 field in the staff client | |
| 13:50 | ebegin | Do you see it when you try to edit your record? |
| 13:51 | Which hidden value did you set? | |
| 13:53 | |Lupin| | ebegin: 4 |
| 13:54 | ebegin: I think the edit feature requires javascript so I can't test that. | |
| 13:55 | ebegin | ok... you are not getting crazy |Lupin|, I don't see it either :) |
| 13:57 | |Lupin| | ebegin: ah, you tried, thanks a lot !! |
| 14:17 | ebegin | grr... |Lupin|, it shows in the editor... but not at the right place... it's located before 001, not after 008... |
| 14:18 | |Lupin|, false alarm... it doesn't show... | |
| 14:19 | |Lupin| | ahah |
| 14:19 | ebegin: but the text I defined for the 09 field appears in te database | |
| 14:24 | is the default framework used only in the staff client, or also in the opac, actually ? | |
| 14:25 | I thought both, e.g. because each field has two descriptions, one for OPAC and one for staff client... | |
| 14:27 | kf | I think this description is used in the MARC-View |
| 14:29 | |Lupin| | kf: that's what I thought, too, but even in thae marc view the field does not appear at all |
| 14:31 | kf | mom testing :) |
| 14:32 | I added 689 and some subfields to the MARC-Framework, its shown in MARC-View and Expanded MARC-View, Expanded MARC-View uses the description | |
| 14:32 | perhaps its a problem with coded fields without subfields? | |
| 14:33 | and check if your hidden value allows display in OPAC | |
| 14:33 | |Lupin| | kf: we set it to four |
| 14:33 | kf | mom I will look it up |
| 14:34 | |Lupin| | kf: and yes it's a coded field without subfield, but I don't know whether this means there is somethingmore to do |
| 14:34 | kf: thanks ! | |
| 14:35 | btw, the command used to update the table was: | |
| 14:35 | kf | ok, 4 was the wrong choice :) !OPAC Intranet Editor !Collapsed |
| 14:35 | |Lupin| | update marc_subfield_structure set hidden=4 where tagfield='009' and frameworkcode=''; |
| 14:35 | I assume this is the right thing ? | |
| 14:35 | kf | try -1: OPAC Intranet Editor Collapsed |
| 14:35 | |Lupin| | kf: ok ! |
| 14:36 | I think I mis read the text ebegin pasted on the web for me | |
| 14:37 | kf | can you access the help file in staff client from edit subfields page with f1? there is a liste of the values |
| 14:37 | I think it muste be on the wiki too | |
| 14:37 | ebegin | kf 4 should display in on the Intranet et Editor... |
| 14:37 | kf | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]_structure.tmpl&s[]=marc&s[]=tag&s[]=structure&s[]=administration |
| 14:38 | yes, but not in OPAC | |
| 14:38 | ebegin | But |Lupin| do not see it in the Intranet ;) |
| 14:38 | s/do/does/ | |
| 14:39 | kf | ok, I started reading when it was about the OPAC description and how to show it in OPAC :) |
| 14:40 | |Lupin| | hmm |
| 14:40 | actually still don't see anything in the opac | |
| 14:41 | The MARC view starts with 010 ISBN | |
| 14:42 | kf | i try adding a new 0xx-field now |
| 14:43 | |Lupin| | and in the staff client I don't see anything either |
| 14:44 | kf | ok, I added 019 without subfields successfully in 3.2 -installation |
| 14:44 | lupin, are u using MARC21 or UNIMARC? | |
| 14:45 | |Lupin| | kf: UNIMARC |
| 14:46 | kf | ok, im using MARC"! |
| 14:46 | 21 | |
| 14:46 | |Lupin| | kf: not sure whether 019 is meaningful |
| 14:46 | kf | I think it isnt, but it wasnt there :) |
| 14:46 | |Lupin| | kf: ah it was not there, ok |
| 14:46 | kf | which value do you have in tab column? |
| 14:47 | |Lupin| | kf: do you know where this is stored in the db ? |
| 14:47 | kf | marc_subfield_structur.tab |
| 14:47 | |Lupin| | ok ok |
| 14:47 | kf | +e |
| 14:47 | |Lupin| | kf: let me see |
| 14:49 | kf: -1 | |
| 14:49 | kf | ok :) |
| 14:49 | set it to 0 | |
| 14:50 | its called managed in tab in staff client, I think -1 is either hidden or items | |
| 14:52 | |Lupin| | kf: sure, I'll change it |
| 14:52 | kf: I don't understand the meaning, though. Can you please explin ? | |
| 14:53 | kf: I'm a newbie so I know nothing about ILMSs | |
| 14:53 | kf | the editor is organised in tabs |
| 14:54 | with managed in tag you can choose in which tag or page you want it to display | |
| 14:54 | normally you choose tab nine for 9xx fields, tab 8 for 8xx fields and so on | |
| 14:55 | |Lupin| | kf: ah I see |
| 14:55 | kf | there is also an items tab, for fields that belong to items and one value for hidden |
| 14:55 | I think you cant work with the editor, as its using javascript? | |
| 14:55 | |Lupin| | so every field numbered xyz is show in tab x, unless the tab field says something diffferent. Is that correct ? |
| 14:55 | ebegin | |Lupin|, i'm pretty sure that it is a problem with the < 010 field. I set the hidden to 0, and it shows in the Editor. hidden = 4 doesn't show.. It's a bug ... |
| 14:56 | |Lupin| | kf: right, I can't use the editor inmy current configuration |
| 14:57 | ebegin: ok | |
| 14:57 | kf | in the default framework yes |
| 14:57 | but there are some exceptions as 952 fields are managed in items | |
| 14:57 | |Lupin| | kf: in other frameworks it works differently ? |
| 14:57 | kf: ahah. | |
| 14:58 | kf | you can change it when adding your own framework |
| 14:58 | so that all fields are on one page, if you like that better | |
| 14:58 | for example a framework for ill records with only a few fields on one page | |
| 14:58 | |Lupin| | kf: but if the field affects only the editor, it wo't affect the MARC view in opac and staff client, right ? |
| 14:59 | (I didn't have the opportunity to check) | |
| 14:59 | kf | I think only the editor, not sure about it |
| 14:59 | did setting tab to 0 change anything? | |
| 14:59 | |Lupin| | let me see what happens in the opac for instance |
| 15:01 | no change in the opac | |
| 15:02 | kf | after setting tab to -1 = ignore I can see 019 in MARC view, but not in Epanded MARC View |
| 15:04 | hm with 0 its only displaed in MARC View too... perhaps a bug | |
| 15:06 | ok, now im out of ideas :( | |
| 15:06 | |Lupin| | kf: okay. Thanks a lot for having tried so hard, thanks to ebegin, too. |
| 15:06 | Maybe time to send an e-mail to the list... | |
| 15:07 | kf | perhaps my database entries could give you a hint? |
| 15:09 | ebegin | I repeat... the problem is with field < 10 AND hidden = 4 ( or any value >=4 ) |
| 15:10 | |Lupin| | I don't know kf |
| 15:10 | ebegin: actually, what's your suggestion ? | |
| 15:10 | ebegin | |Lupin|, set it to 1 (!OPAC, Intranet, Editor, Collapse) |
| 15:11 | |Lupin| | btw what does Collapse mean ? |
| 15:11 | ebegin | there is an explicit condition on hidden >= 4 in the code... cataloguing/addbiblio.pl |
| 15:13 | |Lupin|, déplier | |
| 15:13 | Synonyme of expanded | |
| 15:14 | opposite, sorry :) | |
| 15:14 | |Lupin| | ebegin: !Intranet means it won't work in the Intranet |
| 15:14 | ebegin | yes, don't show |
| 15:14 | |Lupin| | s/intranet/opac/ |
| 15:15 | ebegin: so 1 won't have the effect of showing it everywhere, but you are suggesting this value because it will make the situation mbetter than it is now,correct ? | |
| 15:17 | ebegin | 1 won't show it in the OPAC, but in the intranet. The Collapse is used to expand the subfield, but since 009 doesn't have subfield, the collapse is irrelevant |
| 15:17 | 4 = ! OPAC Intranet Editor !Collapse | |
| 15:18 | 1 = ! OPAC Intranet Editor Collaps | |
| 15:18 | pianohacker | Good morning |
| 15:19 | ebegin | hi pianohacker |
| 15:19 | pianohacker | Hey, eric |
| 15:20 | |Lupin| | ebegin: ok |
| 15:24 | owen | Anyone else finding that opac-userupdate.pl isn't sending email to the administrator? |
| 15:26 | |Lupin| | owen: never tried this feature |
| 15:27 | ebegin | who is (was) toins? |
| 15:28 | hdl_laptop | Antoine Franault |
| 15:28 | used to work in France with us | |
| 15:28 | ebegin | hdl_laptop, used to? Not working anymore? |
| 15:29 | hdl_laptop | working for France telecom on security issues |
| 15:30 | ebegin | ok.. trying to figure out the reason of a condition in cataloguing/addbiblio.pl (search for ">= 4") |
| 15:30 | pianohacker | ebegin: Is it the 'hidden' field? |
| 15:31 | ebegin | yep |
| 15:34 | pianohacker | ebegin: The 'hidden' field is not consistent in any shape or form |
| 15:34 | It resembles a bitmask, but only partially | |
| 15:34 | Not only are the docs confusing, but actually inconsistent with the code | |
| 15:35 | ebegin | pianohacker, I agree... that why we should'nt test them with < or > |
| 15:35 | pianohacker | ebegin: Hey, I'm all for a consistency patch right there |
| 15:36 | One day, I hope to send a database upgrade and some code to make sense of that field | |
| 15:37 | kf | pianohacker: had no time for bug report about professional to organisation linking today :( will try again tomorrow |
| 15:37 | pianohacker | k, cool |
| 15:38 | ebegin | It's ok to use bitfield... but the user shouldn't have to care about it... The UI should be checkboxes. |
| 15:39 | |Lupin| | ebegin++ |
| 15:50 | owen | Can anyone explain to me why the syntax "$query->{'modify'}" would fail to work when "$query->param('modify')" would? |
| 15:51 | pianohacker | owen: To be honest, I have no idea how $query->{'modify'} worked in the first place |
| 15:52 | owen | Perhaps it didn't :) |
| 15:59 | pianohacker | It looks like that sort of syntax (if not that exact line) was present in the file from the beginnig |
| 15:59 | *beginning | |
| 16:00 | $ git log -p opac/opac-userupdate.pl | |
| 16:23 | atz | owen: it's an object... you have to use the methods |
| 16:24 | owen | Thanks atz. I was trying fixes without really know exactly what I was doing. I'm still not sure whether the first version worked at one time. |
| 16:24 | atz | if the object decides in one version to store data at $self->{modify} in one version, and someplace else in another, it's the coder's fault for relying on the particularity of the data location and not the method api |
| 16:24 | owen | Hi Sharon |
| 16:24 | Sharon | Hiya Owen |
| 16:24 | Finally out of all my meetings, so I can log into all my chatrooms | |
| 16:46 | |Lupin| | hi gmcharlt ! |
| 16:48 | till soon, everybody | |
| 17:13 | gmcharlt | hi folks |
| 17:13 | pianohacker | Hello |
| 17:14 | hdl_laptop | hi gmcharlt |
| 17:30 | chris | hi all |
| 17:30 | pianohacker | Hi |
| 18:32 | gmcharlt | owen: go for lost causes - insist on XHTML2 compliance! |
| 18:33 | owen | I feel that in order to be usable by the widest variety of browsers Koha should be designed to use HTML 2. |
| 18:33 | It's the logical-extension of the tables-are-bad debate! | |
| 18:34 | gmcharlt | owen: before I support you on your HTML5 RFC, I have to ask you what video codec the Koha project should support ;) |
| 18:35 | owen | Every time you check in a book a little video loads and Nancy Pearl recites her capsule review of it. |
| 18:36 | gmcharlt | @quote add <owen> Every time you check in a book a little video loads and Nancy Pearl recites her capsule review of it. |
| 18:36 | munin | gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. Quote #12 added. |
| 18:43 | ebegin | gmcharlt, about the welcome message, what does LMS stand for? |
| 18:44 | gmcharlt | LMS = "library management system" = ILS |
| 18:44 | ebegin | ok, thanks :) |
| 18:45 | gmcharlt | ebegin: feel free to edit page to expand the acronyms |
| 18:49 | owen | gmcharlt: I'd like to add to git the source files for a couple of images: the Koha logo and the backgrond image used by the cart and lists buttons |
| 18:50 | gmcharlt | owen: good idea |
| 18:50 | owen | Where do you think I should put them? Alongside other OPAC images? |
| 18:50 | gmcharlt | will we need signoff by rach to include the source for the Koha logo? |
| 18:51 | owen | I'm not sure about that one. |
| 18:51 | gmcharlt | wouldn't hurt to put them in the OPAC imagedir, but since the webserver won't actually be serving them, some place in misc might be better |
| 18:52 | owen | Create a new directory there for images? |
| 18:53 | gmcharlt | yes |
| 18:53 | misc/interface_customization | |
| 18:53 | to suggest a general name | |
| 18:54 | owen | Okay, and I'll contact rach before I do anything with the logo |
| 18:54 | gmcharlt | cool |
| 19:42 | chris | bb later |
| 20:45 | richard | hi |
| 20:48 | hdl_laptop | hi richard |
| 20:49 | richard | hi hdl_laptop |
| 20:49 | wizzyrea | I have kind of a curious problem |
| 20:50 | pianohacker | You can be curiously problematic sometimes |
| 20:55 | wizzyrea | ^.^ I try to be entertaining |
| 21:07 | Jo | morning all |
| 21:14 | chris | back |
| 21:15 | gmcharlt | hi Jo |
| 21:23 | Jo | Hi Gelen |
| 21:23 | Galen - sorry | |
| 21:23 | gmcharlt | Jo: at least that's a new mispelling ;) |
| 21:24 | Jo | :) its my silly sticky keyboard |
| 21:46 | |Lupin| | hello ! |
| 21:46 | pianohacker | wizzyrea: What was your curious problem? |
| 21:49 | wizzyrea | oh, after our last install items apparently were'nt getting tagged with their current location |
| 21:49 | last update, rather | |
| 21:51 | |Lupin| | some librarians around, please ? |
| 21:52 | pianohacker | How loose is your "librarians" requirement? |
| 21:52 | |Lupin| | pianohacker: it's loose enough |
| 21:52 | pianohacker | What's up? |
| 21:52 | |Lupin| | I'm thinking about one possible use of koha |
| 21:53 | and wold like to know whether koha would be suitable for that. | |
| 21:53 | idea is not completely clear yet | |
| 21:53 | just a first thought | |
| 21:53 | it's to create a specialized cataloge on one theme | |
| 21:54 | let's say it's philosophy | |
| 21:54 | so I'd like to kep track of all the books on philosoophy, say, that are present in a certain number of libraries | |
| 21:55 | Moreover, I'd like to distinguish those items that are accessible to print disabled persons, either because they are available as files, or because they are in braille, audiobooks, etc. | |
| 21:56 | Setting up a koha, declare all the libraries, catalogue the bibliographic records and declare all the holdings, would that be the right approach ? | |
| 21:56 | or at least an accurate one ? | |
| 21:56 | chris | accurate for about 20 seconds |
| 21:57 | |Lupin| | oh oh |
| 21:57 | chris | until one of the libraries changes something |
| 21:57 | imp | is it possible to search for stuff inside of some digital stuff stored in koha, like pdfs? |
| 21:57 | |Lupin| | chris: as I already said, I _completely_ new to the field (new reads dumb) |
| 21:57 | chris | imp: nope koha is a LMS, not a digital library system |
| 21:57 | but if you use something like kete | |
| 21:58 | then koha can search itself, and kete | |
| 21:58 | |Lupin|: i know you are not dumb :) | |
| 21:58 | imp | chris: thx for the pointer :) |
| 21:58 | chris | |Lupin|: the problem i can see with your approach is keeping it up to date |
| 21:59 | |Lupin| | chris: yeah, I kind of realised that, so I was wondering how to cope with that, perhaps just giving one URL for each holding, or something like that ? Or is the approach completely wrong ? |
| 21:59 | chris | |Lupin|: i think it would be nicer to have targets that you search |
| 21:59 | and then reformat the results | |
| 21:59 | so when you do a search, it searches 10 library catalogues | |
| 22:00 | and then returns you the results, which you then present in a way you like | |
| 22:00 | |Lupin| | chris: hmm... the roblem is that not all of them have APIs. |
| 22:00 | chris | do they all have z3950 servers? |
| 22:01 | |Lupin| | Also, one of the important thing is to catalogue any material accessible to print-disabled persons, no matter whehther it is available somewhere for loan, for buying... |
| 22:02 | chris | *nod* |
| 22:02 | |Lupin| | chris: definitely not, and they probably never will |
| 22:02 | chris | yours might be the best of the rest then |
| 22:02 | if you cant get realtime data out, that might be the best you can do | |
| 22:02 | |Lupin| | chris: some libraries for the blinds here in France are recording on cassettes and printing their catalogue on paper, so that the catalogue is not even accessible to those who are supposed to read the books |
| 22:03 | chris | heh, thats crazy |
| 22:03 | |Lupin| | yes |
| 22:03 | chris | you have seen worldcat eh |Lupin| ? |
| 22:03 | http://www.worldcat.org/ | |
| 22:03 | |Lupin| | these libraries are generally driven by old persons who are very good willing, but not much ready to adapt themselves |
| 22:04 | chris | *nod* |
| 22:04 | |Lupin| | chris: just know the name |
| 22:04 | chris: why are you mentionnng it right now ? | |
| 22:04 | chris | when the wellington theosophical society got Koha, i spend more time teaching the people there how to move a mouse, than how to use koha |
| 22:05 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 22:05 | chris | |Lupin|: just that you might be able to use it as a source for getting a lot of bibliographical data |
| 22:05 | |Lupin| | do they catalogue all the books on the topic, or only those for which they own at least one item ? |
| 22:05 | chris | http://www.worldcat.org/advancedsearch |
| 22:06 | |Lupin| | chris: but they don't have a Z39.50 server, do they ? |
| 22:06 | chris | nope |
| 22:06 | biblios.net otoh do | |
| 22:06 | i was more thinking of worldcat being an example of what you are trying to do | |
| 22:06 | a catalogue of catalogues :) | |
| 22:07 | pianohacker | Perhaps something along the lines of Masterkey? |
| 22:07 | |Lupin| | chris: in fact what I want is just to provide people a place where they can look for a book on a given field. And as an additional service for those who are print-disabled, I'd like to provide, for each book, a list of libraries where they can find a version of that book they can read |
| 22:08 | pianohacker: ah I didn't know this | |
| 22:08 | chris | yep, thats pretty much what worldcat is trying to do |
| 22:09 | |Lupin| | chris: ok. |
| 22:09 | chris | without the print-disabled bit |
| 22:09 | |Lupin| | chris: and my feeling is that, accoding to you, installing a Koha is not the most efficient way to reach the goal, right ? |
| 22:10 | chris | no i dont think so |
| 22:10 | but, if there is no way to search the catalogues | |
| 22:10 | ie they are on paper | |
| 22:10 | then koha might well be a good solution | |
| 22:11 | |Lupin| | chris: I see |
| 22:11 | chris | it will involve someone's time keeping it up to date though |
| 22:11 | |Lupin| | sure |
| 22:12 | but the same koha could, for instance, serve also to keep track of the books of one local library with printed books ? or one should necessarily have two distinct kohas ? | |
| 22:12 | pianohacker | Hmm. It looks like pazpar2 is open source but masterkey is not |
| 22:12 | chris | pianohacker: im not sure even masterkey can search paper :-) |
| 22:13 | pianohacker | Oh, nevermind. Ignore the idiot |
| 22:13 | chris | |Lupin|: it could be all in the same koha |
| 22:13 | |Lupin| | chris: okay, that was what I was thinking |
| 22:13 | also | |
| 22:14 | how wold one represent the itms accessible to print disabled ? | |
| 22:14 | would that be one single item type ? | |
| 22:14 | chris | maybe one collection code |
| 22:14 | which can have a few itemtypes | |
| 22:14 | |Lupin| | the requirement is that one is able to do a search limited to those books that are accessible |
| 22:15 | chris | *nod* |
| 22:15 | you can limit by collection code | |
| 22:15 | if you switch on that option in the system preferences | |
| 22:15 | |Lupin| | ahah |
| 22:15 | chris | that means you could have |
| 22:15 | 'Print Disabled' | |
| 22:16 | |Lupin| | I thought collections where just published series of books, i.e. a publisher publishes a collection |
| 22:16 | chris | and that could contain 'Talking Books','Audio CD' .. not sure what else |
| 22:16 | |Lupin| | actually it's more than that ? |
| 22:16 | chris | yes |
| 22:16 | let me find Jo's post on it | |
| 22:16 | |Lupin| | chris: thanks |
| 22:17 | chris: to your list one could add digital files, braille... | |
| 22:17 | pianohacker | They're really just refinements of item types; for instance, you can have a DVD itemtype and Non-fiction DVD, Children's DVD and Fiction DVD collections |
| 22:17 | chris | ahh of course |
| 22:17 | |Lupin| | hmm |
| 22:18 | chris | http://library-matters.blogspo[…]t-item-types.html |
| 22:18 | |Lupin| | how do you know whether it's an item type or a collection code that is more appropriate to represent something ? |
| 22:18 | chris | that post might help, at least i hope it does |
| 22:18 | |Lupin| | chris: thanks a lot ! |
| 22:18 | chris | thank jo, she wrote it :) |
| 22:19 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 22:25 | okay, finished reading | |
| 22:26 | Will have to come back to it, because for a newbie like me this is a bit fst... | |
| 22:26 | chris | if Jo is around later, she might be able to help |
| 22:26 | pianohacker | Any particular points we can (attempt to) clear up? |
| 22:26 | |Lupin| | Are the concepts of item types and CCodes koha-specific, or rather common and well understood in library science ? |
| 22:27 | pianohacker: well... I discovered collection codes a few minutes ago so I feel a bit dull... | |
| 22:28 | is it correct that item types are something defined at the item level and never at the bib level ? | |
| 22:28 | chris | Koha specific |Lupin| |
| 22:28 | and no, you can define it at either level | |
| 22:28 | |Lupin| | ok |
| 22:28 | Jo | I'm back |
| 22:28 | chris | i prefer at itemlevel though |
| 22:29 | |Lupin| | both item types and CCodes can be defined at both levels ? |
| 22:29 | pianohacker | ccodes are item level only |
| 22:30 | |Lupin| | So are ccodes stored as marc fields, or not ? |
| 22:31 | Jo | (I spent 3 weeks agonizing over CCodes and item types) |
| 22:31 | |Lupin| | hi Jo :) |
| 22:31 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: Koha stores items as both holdings tags (952 tags) and as rows in the items SQL table |
| 22:31 | So they're _technically_ marc fields, yes, but it's an artifact of the implementation | |
| 22:32 | chris | (thats for marc21) |
| 22:32 | im not sure where it stores them for UNIMARC | |
| 22:32 | |Lupin| | chris: yep, I assume it's 995 in Unimarc |
| 22:32 | chris | if thats where the rest of the item stuff is, then yep |
| 22:32 | |Lupin| | chris: I think so... |
| 22:33 | Jo | http://library-matters.blogspo[…]lots-of-item.html |
| 22:33 | pianohacker | confirmed, from the default framework for UNIMARC |
| 22:33 | Jo | this is where I ended up with tem types and ccodes |
| 22:33 | |Lupin| | I see a difference between item types and ccodes, but I'm not sure |
| 22:34 | it seems to me that item types are mutually exclusive | |
| 22:34 | whereas ccodes are not | |
| 22:34 | is that true ? | |
| 22:34 | Jo | http://opac.koha.catalystdemo.[…]ha/opac-search.pl shows our 12 ccodes |
| 22:34 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: They are both, unfortunately, mutually exclusive (on the same item, at least) |
| 22:34 | Jo | these are used to break 73 item types into searchable mnanageable chunks |
| 22:35 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: The main practical difference is that you can set circulation rules by itemtype, but not by circulation code |
| 22:35 | *ccode | |
| 22:35 | Jo | yep. |
| 22:35 | |Lupin| | ok |
| 22:35 | pianohacker | In general, another difference is that itemtypes are more general and ccodes are more specific, but you by no means are required to do so |
| 22:35 | |Lupin| | and in the case we were discussing before |
| 22:36 | pianohacker | Jo seems to have taken the opposite approach with good results, for example |
| 22:36 | |Lupin| | where there would be no loan of books |
| 22:36 | this difference vanishes ? | |
| 22:37 | Jo: I already read your blog post, thanks. As I said will have to come back to it cause I'm not librarian and it's tough | |
| 22:37 | Jo | tghe second post is much shorter - summary |
| 22:38 | |Lupin| | oh I didn't realize there were two |
| 22:38 | Jo | I used itemtypes as specific and ccode to generalize, and default circulation rules (only stating the exceptions to the rule not every rule) |
| 22:40 | |Lupin| | Jo: So the things like Adult Nonfiction on the site you have given are what ? item types or ccodes ? |
| 22:40 | Jo | Adult nonfiction is a ccode, |
| 22:41 | which is used to cluster together a bunch of item types: BNM (Maori) BNH (local History) and BN (general adult nonfiction) | |
| 22:42 | and ditto for ccode DVD, which clusters togteher 6 different DVD item types, being various combinations of free and rental, then Junior. young adult and Adult. | |
| 22:44 | now back to your print disabled example, you could assign a ccode to every item you want part of a specific collction, regardless of what item type they are. | |
| 22:44 | |Lupin| | Jo: would you say that it's by plaing with the things that you became (more) familiar ? |
| 22:45 | Jo | Lupin, I totally sympathize. As i said, I spent weeks struggling with this and that is why I wrote the blog posts. |
| 22:45 | there are 3 of them, and I tried an arrangement empahsiszing iteem types, then truied emphasizing ccodes. | |
| 22:45 | |Lupin| | hmm an item can have one ccode and an item type, but it can't have several item types or several ccodes... right ? |
| 22:45 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: Correct |
| 22:45 | Jo | thats right. |
| 22:46 | Lupion: I found it easier once I made a clear statement about what I wanted to achieve.i think y | |
| 22:46 | then, once you know where you are heading, you can identity various ways of achieving that result. | |
| 22:46 | and for me, 1 way stood out as being superior. | |
| 22:47 | |Lupin| | Right. |
| 22:47 | Jo | koha's flexibility is fantastic, but overwhelming too. |
| 22:47 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 22:47 | Jo | I am very happy to help you here, and I found loads of support when I was struggling with this issue. |
| 22:47 | I have only 1 solution, others have equally valid and helpful solutions. | |
| 22:48 | |Lupin| | sure |
| 22:48 | and I guess I'll have to build mine | |
| 22:48 | which may be even difeent | |
| 22:48 | Jo | so articulate clearly what you want to achieve at the end for your users. |
| 22:48 | |Lupin| | but this doesn't matter, the support of the community is precious and helpful |
| 22:48 | Jo | yep |
| 22:48 | |Lupin| | I think it's very simple |
| 22:49 | I want to ctalogue books that are available for print disabled nder different forms | |
| 22:49 | I want to keep track of the form | |
| 22:49 | and also I want to keep track of whether a book ias available in an accessible form, no matter which form it is. | |
| 22:50 | so suppose you are a blind user | |
| 22:50 | you should be able to say | |
| 22:50 | find all the books that are accessible for me | |
| 22:50 | and the system will list them, say what is available and where, and in which form. | |
| 22:52 | does this make sens ? | |
| 22:52 | pianohacker | yes |
| 22:52 | |Lupin| | good point :) |
| 22:54 | pianohacker | My first guess would be to create item types for each form you have ("Talking Book", "Audio Book", "Book"), and have a "Print Disabled" collection code |
| 22:54 | I think that's what chris was thinking of, as well | |
| 22:55 | |Lupin| | right |
| 22:55 | but | |
| 22:55 | with such a set-up | |
| 22:56 | woudl koha guess on its own that an item that has the item type talking book belongs to the print disables ccode ? | |
| 22:56 | I mean, I'm looking for a way to have simple rles saying hat braile is ok for print disabled... | |
| 22:57 | pianohacker | Koha would not be able to guess that on its own, no |
| 22:58 | |Lupin| | ah |
| 22:58 | too bad | |
| 22:58 | chris | if it could reason like that |
| 22:58 | we would have to shut it down | |
| 22:58 | or it would send terminators after us | |
| 22:58 | |Lupin| | hmm ? |
| 22:59 | pianohacker | We'd have to send someone back in time to talk to Rosalie Blake, like in Terminator 2 |
| 22:59 | chris | you have heard of the movie 'Terminator' |Lupin| ? |
| 23:00 | where machines began thinking, and realised they didnt need humans anymore | |
| 23:00 | |Lupin| | yes |
| 23:00 | but never seen | |
| 23:00 | doesn't matter :) | |
| 23:00 | chris | or 2001? .. its a common science fiction theme :) |
| 23:01 | |Lupin| | yep |
| 23:01 | I mean I understood the idea | |
| 23:01 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: You can search for multiple item types at once; all a "Print Disabled" collection code would do would be to make it easier to search |
| 23:01 | |Lupin| | what I didn't understand was why you were saying that |
| 23:01 | pianohacker | For instance: http://jcfld.us.to/cgi-bin/koh[…]OK+OR+itype%3ADVD |
| 23:02 | chris | ahh i was joking ,that if the computer could guess correctly what items were accessible, it would be intelligent :) |
| 23:03 | |Lupin| | chris: ok. but I meant you would tell him which item types are part of the print disabled collection, sya, and then you just have to give the right item type to the book and koha knows that the collection is the reunion of all the item types... like in a hierarchy... |
| 23:04 | pianohacker: yes tha was more or less what I had in mind | |
| 23:04 | Jo | couldn't you do a bulk update for some item types: so run a script which did something like "where itemtypes = audio book eneter<printdisabled> into the ccode field |
| 23:04 | and ditto for largeprint item types etc. | |
| 23:05 | |Lupin| | Jo: sure, this could probabl be done |
| 23:05 | Jo | thats how Chris has assigned ccodes to itemtypes |
| 23:05 | |Lupin| | Jo: but I'd say I'd do that as a fall back, because this does not look very clean to me |
| 23:06 | chris | that was a part of a migration |
| 23:06 | im not sure you would want to do that as a continual thing | |
| 23:06 | Jo | yep. |
| 23:06 | chris | but certainly when migrating you would do that |
| 23:06 | |Lupin| | not sure either |
| 23:06 | what about virtual shelves ? | |
| 23:06 | would these help ? | |
| 23:06 | Jo | the problem is that you have to decide wherether advanced sedarch is by itemtype or ccode. |
| 23:06 | chris | the rest of the time, it relies on the cataloguer assigning the right code |
| 23:07 | |Lupin| | k |
| 23:07 | Jo | and if you choose ccode then for advanced search to work every item in the collection should be identified by a ccode of some sort |
| 23:07 | so bulk update at data conversion time, then item by item, while cataloguing new stuff | |
| 23:08 | |Lupin| | I'm really wondering whether koha is the right tool to do this specific thing |
| 23:08 | Jo | don't be disheartend Lupin :) |
| 23:08 | |Lupin| | the advantage I can see is that it offers good research capabilities, which a reader may want |
| 23:09 | Jo: ok :) | |
| 23:09 | Jo | Koha is amazingly versatile |
| 23:09 | |Lupin| | Jo: just trying to remain agnostic regarding what tool would be best... |
| 23:09 | Jo | its just that as librarians we are used to being told what we can have, not being able to say what we want. |
| 23:12 | |Lupin| | would tags help ? |
| 23:12 | chris | whatever you choose |
| 23:12 | tags, virtual shelves, ccodes, itemtypes | |
| 23:13 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: Maybe, though it's currently a bit inconvenient to set tags as part of cataloging |
| 23:13 | chris | it relies on someone cataloguing things correctly |
| 23:13 | pianohacker | The same applies to virtual shelves |
| 23:13 | chris | there is not going to be any way to automagically pick them im afraid |
| 23:13 | |Lupin| | chris: I realize it. |
| 23:14 | chris: I just thought one may be able to minimize | |
| 23:14 | e.g. by saying that a set of books shold be defined as the reunion of smaller sets | |
| 23:15 | Jo | I have to head off to other work, I'll think some more about this. |
| 23:15 | and what you just said is exactly how I have arranged my collection | |
| 23:16 | 1 ccode being a reunion of smaller sets (identified by itemtypes) | |
| 23:17 | |Lupin| | Jo: yes, but you have to enter both, whereas I was looking for a way to do it such that when a record is identified by an item type, you don't have to give the ccode explicitly |
| 23:18 | anyway. I don't want you guys to think I'm frustrated or anything like that, it's not true at all. I'm just strongly thinking and asking myself questions, it is certainly not obvious on IRC to distinguish frustration from questionning. | |
| 23:20 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: That being quite the understatement :) |
| 23:20 | We're happy to help | |
| 23:21 | Jo | absolutely |
| 23:22 | (I think I drove people mad in the end... Nicole stopped just short of slapping me with a: "stop overthinking it" message ! | |
| 23:22 | it is actually really helpful to participate in this 'thinking it through' process... h | |
| 23:23 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 23:23 | thanks to all of you :) | |
| 23:23 | I hope I can have the koha set up soon so I'll have something to show you | |
| 23:25 | okay, time to go sleeping. So long! | |
| 23:26 | pianohacker | bye |
| 23:26 | chris | sleep well |
| 23:26 | |Lupin| | thanks , have a nice day chris :) |
| 23:37 | pianohacker | Good night, all |
| 02:56 | Jo | Richard: are you about? |
| 02:56 | Katipo Richard :) | |
| 02:57 | richard | hi jo. just saw your email |
| 03:23 | Jo | cool |
| 03:24 | Amit | hi chris, |
| 03:24 | good morning #koha | |
| 04:15 | Jo | morning Amit |
| 04:16 | Amit | hi Jo |
| 04:53 | hi hdl | |
| 06:00 | kf | good morning :) |
| 07:15 | veki | does KOHA suport ISO ILL standard(s)? |
| 07:17 | hdl_laptop | veki: I donot think so. |
| 07:17 | But do you have some docs to hint to what kind of support you are asking ? | |
| 07:18 | veki | hdl_laptop: ok, I gues that Marc21 compliance can do that work. |
| 07:18 | hdl_laptop: please look this http://www.collectionscanada.g[…]o/ill/stanprf.htm | |
| 07:19 | hdl_laptop: maybe you can look at this too: http://www.nla.gov.au/librarie[…]ralia/isoill.html | |
| 07:33 | chris | wow that certainly looks like an ISO standard alright |
| 07:34 | im fairly sure they make these almost incomprehensible on purpose | |
| 07:36 | veki | chris: indeed, LOL |
| 07:52 | chris: maybe this link i s useful http://www.eln.bc.ca/view.php?id=1085 | |
| 09:31 | chris | @seen ecorrado |
| 09:31 | munin | chris: ecorrado was last seen in #koha 3 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 49 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <ecorrado> taht solitare image is funny |
| 09:54 | |Lupin| | hello, there ! |
| 09:55 | today something weird happens with koha. | |
| 09:55 | Can't locate C4/Context.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/seb/src/koha ... | |
| 09:55 | and C4/Context.pm is in the first directory in @INC ! | |
| 10:02 | hmm, was a permission problem... the Perl message as not very helpful | |
| 10:43 | ebegin | good morning #koha |
| 10:54 | kf | good morning ebegin |
| 10:58 | ebegin | bb soon |
| 11:28 | |Lupin| | back after lunch |
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