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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:07 | |Lupin| | hello ! |
| 12:08 | librarians around, please ? | |
| 12:09 | Amit | hi lupin |
| 12:10 | |Lupin| | hi Amit |
| 12:17 | kf | librarian here |
| 12:27 | |Lupin| | kf: I was looking for a word |
| 12:27 | kf: the name for the acton of taking an old catalogue and importing it in a new system | |
| 12:28 | kf | uh |
| 12:28 | im German, so this is difficult | |
| 12:28 | |Lupin| | kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does the sa |
| 12:28 | kf | do you mean something like migration or conversion? |
| 12:28 | |Lupin| | kf: now I know that in french librarians call this retroconversion. Does a similar term exist in english ? |
| 12:29 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: retrospective conversion, if you mean the process of taking an old card or book catalog and getting MARC records to import into an ILS |
| 12:29 | kf | retroconversion is also used in Germany |
| 12:29 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: also known as "recon" in US English |
| 12:29 | kf | for cataloging from catalog cards to an electronic system |
| 12:29 | |Lupin| | kf: yes, migration is the word I'd spontaneously use, bu it seems librarians here in France prefer retroconverson, which looks rather counter-intuitve to me |
| 12:29 | kf | i would use migration for electronic to electronic catalog |
| 12:30 | and retroconversion for catalog cards (paper) to electronic catalog | |
| 12:31 | |Lupin| | kf gmcharlt: thanks to both of ou, your explanations are awesome. |
| 12:31 | kf | youre welcome |
| 12:37 | gmcharlt | welcome, Koha! did somebody write an AI module recently? ;) |
| 12:38 | kf | :) |
| 13:32 | owen | Hi brendan, nice to see you get a couple of mentions in the Library Technology Update today |
| 13:32 | brendan | thanks owen |
| 13:33 | owen - do you have a link handy that you could send along? | |
| 13:33 | owen | http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]285&code=&code=PR |
| 13:34 | brendan | sweet thanks :) |
| 13:53 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: yesterday you said that it is possible in Perl to build a file handle from a scalar. Could you please explain how ? |
| 13:54 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: use the IO::Scalar module |
| 13:54 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: okay, thanks ! |
| 14:16 | Invalid indicator "|" forced to blank | |
| 14:17 | Does tis error message reported by MARC::batch::next tell something to somebody ? | |
| 14:21 | collum | Lupin: http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/nlr/nlr.html - Last paragraph |
| 14:22 | schuster | Owen around? |
| 14:22 | owen | Yes |
| 14:22 | |Lupin| | collum: thanks ! |
| 14:22 | schuster | thought I would share this quote from a librarian this morning on what we did yesterday "Love them! Wonderful.... you can see what is happening immediately. I have just seen at check-in." |
| 14:24 | owen | Glad to hear it :) |
| 14:24 | |Lupin| | collum: but actually for Unimarc records these errors could be ignored, right ? |
| 14:26 | collum | I don't really know anything about Unimarc. Can someone else confirm? |
| 14:29 | moodaepo | Export from connexion Client |
| 14:29 | is that an option in Koha...I haven't checked. | |
| 14:30 | also any option for global change for bibs? | |
| 14:32 | atz | moodaepo: no |
| 14:32 | moodaepo | no on the global change? |
| 14:33 | also does koha do a merge on dupe bibs or a whole record replacement? | |
| 14:33 | atz | it can do merge/overlay |
| 14:33 | so people use export/ MarcEdit/ overlay to do batch changes | |
| 14:34 | i guess that is more like whole record replacement... | |
| 14:34 | moodaepo | ah ok thanks |
| 14:34 | atz | but using the old record as the starting point, it doesn't look much like that |
| 14:35 | moodaepo | what about connexion client? |
| 14:35 | atz | you mean pushing from connexion directly to Koha? don't think that's been done yet |
| 14:36 | moodaepo | cool |
| 14:36 | atz | you can download MARC files from connection and upload them of course |
| 14:36 | moodaepo | right |
| 14:36 | atz | and you could use biblios to get the records, and then push from there to Koha |
| 14:38 | moodaepo | @wunder 56001 |
| 14:38 | munin | moodaepo: The current temperature in MSU Physics Dept, Mankato, Minnesota is 14.8°C (9:30 AM CDT on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 13.0°C. Pressure: 29.88 in 1011.7 hPa (Falling). |
| 14:40 | atz | connexion integration would be a great project for somebody, using the same API as biblios |
| 14:44 | |Lupin| | how to se the options for rebuild_nozebra, pls ? |
| 14:48 | owen | Why am I still getting Bugzilla emails when the CC field changes? I unchecked all the boxes for that option! |
| 14:50 | |Lupin| | owen: don't know, sorry. |
| 14:58 | k, see you in four hours, for the meeting | |
| 15:20 | hdl_laptop1 | owen: maybe you are a bugzilla administrator |
| 15:21 | gmcharlt | owen: what do your email prefs look like? |
| 15:21 | and what's an example bug where you're seeing the CC change emails? | |
| 15:22 | owen | gmcharlt: in "Field/recipient specific options:" I have noting checked in the row for "I want to receive mail when: The CC field changes " |
| 15:23 | The most recent example of a message I received was slef adding himself as a CC to [Bug 3378] Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies | |
| 15:23 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3378 major, PATCH-Sent, ---, galen.charltonliblime.com, NEW, Renewal policy should match pickup library's policies |
| 15:27 | gmcharlt | owen: are you getting CCed on all bugs? |
| 15:28 | owen: or to ask the question properly, are you getting notification of CC changes for all bugs, as far as you can tell? | |
| 15:29 | owen | As far as I know...but if I wasn't getting notice of some CC changes I wouldn't know that there were CC changes which I missed :| |
| 15:29 | slef | oh my - how did it get to 1630 :( |
| 15:30 | gmcharlt | owen: could you send me the headers from the latest unwanted email? |
| 15:36 | owen: the email was sent to koha-bugslists.koha.org, not to you directly |
|
| 15:37 | automatic CC of bug activity to that mailing list | |
| 15:37 | owen | Oh, duh. When I saw the options for controlling CCs I assumed that what it would affect. |
| 15:37 | Thanks for explaining. | |
| 16:05 | wizzyrea | anybody here know what the unknown values when sorting circ reports by collection code are in circulation reports? |
| 16:13 | owen | unknown values? |
| 16:14 | atz | wizzyrea: does it look like "UNKNOWN" or what? |
| 16:15 | i'd suspect is was the filler for when the code is NULL in the DB, but I don't know | |
| 16:19 | wizzyrea | yea, it says UNKNOWN VALUE |
| 16:21 | atz | ok, i'm pretty sure that is the placeholder for NULL's |
| 16:22 | wizzyrea | so... why are they there? |
| 16:22 | (can we get rid of them) | |
| 16:22 | we have like 18 | |
| 16:22 | rows of this | |
| 16:22 | atz | yeah, just add values to the records |
| 16:22 | schuster | wizzyrea - question - |
| 16:23 | wizzyrea | so are you sayingg we have 18 instances of empty collection codes? |
| 16:23 | schuster | When you search for a title and select Edit items at the top do you see the item detail or does it just show edit/delete? |
| 16:23 | wizzyrea | that we can't see? |
| 16:23 | atz | wizzyrea: yes, exactly |
| 16:23 | wizzyrea | which kind of begs the question, if I can't see them, how can i add a value to them? |
| 16:23 | atz | er... "can't see" i don't get |
| 16:23 | schuster | Edit the item barcode. |
| 16:24 | wizzyrea | well they don't show up in the list of collection codes |
| 16:24 | slef | hrm... does koha3- MARC21 support broader-term linking? |
| 16:24 | wizzyrea | schuster: sec, lemme look |
| 16:24 | atz | edit the item itself... shouldn't have anything to do w/ indexing or ccodes |
| 16:24 | wizzyrea | hm this may require a visual |
| 16:24 | slef | for subject headings, I mean |
| 16:26 | schuster | Sorry jumped into the middle of a discussion... in mysql can you run a query on the table? |
| 16:26 | wizzyrea | http://screencast.com/t/qeRmvzEFdkm |
| 16:26 | slef | select * from tablename where constraint; |
| 16:26 | wizzyrea | yea... about that |
| 16:26 | slef | any MARC21 gurus in the house? |
| 16:26 | wizzyrea | we are hosted >.> |
| 16:26 | that screencap is from the LL demo | |
| 16:27 | schuster | Ah... you could run it in the wizard. |
| 16:27 | wizzyrea | it's the circ report wizard |
| 16:27 | our db has 18 rows of UNKNOWN VALUE, all with 0 checkout | |
| 16:28 | atz | wizzyrea: but we're talking about collection codes, not itemtypes right? |
| 16:30 | wizzyrea | bah, the screencap is correct, we have 18 unknown value itemtypes, and we can't see them in the dropdown when editing items |
| 16:30 | so I don't know if they're ghosts or what | |
| 16:30 | crap we've deleted... | |
| 17:05 | slef | hello Snow_Fox |
| 17:05 | time check - 1h55 to meeting? | |
| 17:17 | nicomo | @wunder lyon, france |
| 17:17 | munin | nicomo: The current temperature in Feyzin, Feyzin, France is 30.5°C (7:00 PM CEST on July 01, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 43%. Dew Point: 16.0°C. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014.4 hPa (Steady). |
| 17:17 | nicomo | uh, time for fresh beer |
| 17:17 | see ya all | |
| 17:18 | wizzyrea | woot drunken koha meeting! |
| 17:20 | owen | Not as much fun if each of us is drinking all by ourselves |
| 17:20 | wizzyrea | but we are virtually together! |
| 17:20 | but it is hard to type when you're wasted :P | |
| 17:20 | now, if we had *video*... | |
| 17:23 | slef | apparently video conferencing less productive than text chat or phones according to a guy who used to work at BT I met at a conference |
| 17:24 | I should have told davi that and see what he said :) | |
| 17:24 | so much backlog, so little time | |
| 17:34 | davi | maybe you are right, slef |
| 17:35 | slef | awwww, no arguments? all I have is a random anecdote from someone I don't have an email address for... it's not a strong argument |
| 17:35 | davi | however, I would say: "for each situation use the best tool" |
| 17:36 | slef | true... video conferencing is best for pulling faces at davis |
| 17:36 | davi | and I agree that by default, chat is the best one, being email the second due to it is less intrusive |
| 17:36 | slef | any MARC21 smarties about? |
| 17:37 | gmcharlt | slef: what's your question? |
| 17:38 | slef | do we have cross-referencing of subjects in MARC21 in Koha? |
| 17:38 | davi | slef, Video conferencing allow a very quicker interaction, but obviously it is even more intrusive than chat |
| 17:38 | slef | 1mo... just remembered what I wanted the laptop for |
| 17:38 | it has some notes on cross-referencing | |
| 17:40 | |Lupin| | hi again, all |
| 17:43 | wizzyrea | slef: unrelated to koha question: what's a good tweetdeck like client for identi.ca? |
| 17:44 | slef | wizzyrea: I don't know what tweetdeck is, so I'm ill-qualified to answer that question. |
| 17:47 | ok, got access to notes on laptop. | |
| 17:48 | gmcharlt: UNIMARC Koha seems to have fields/code for subject name, translation, broader narrower and related terms, use for and replace with. | |
| 17:48 | gmcharlt: IIRC, MARC21 Koha doesn't have all of those and I thought it did, but it may have been in one of my local branches. Will find the file(s). | |
| 17:49 | wizzyrea | ah, well what do you use to post to identi.ca? |
| 17:50 | gmcharlt | slef: the MARC21 authority frameworks should have all of the relevant tags defined |
| 17:51 | slef | wizzyrea: variously emacs-jabber, pidgin, command-line, my website and their website. |
| 17:52 | wizzyrea: I used to have a firefox extension installed but I've lost it. Isn't there an Apps link on http://identi.ca | |
| 17:53 | no, it's at http://laconi.ca/trac/wiki/Apps | |
| 17:55 | gmcharlt: do the output templates and code? IIRC, last test I only saw See Alsos. | |
| 17:55 | gmcharlt | slef: are you referring to the information that displays when you do an authority heading search? if so, most of that output is hardcoded |
| 17:56 | slef | gmcharlt: is that a known bug to fix? |
| 17:56 | gmcharlt | slef: desirable enhancement, at any rate |
| 17:57 | slef | gmcharlt: will do. Can you outline how you'd prefer it was done? |
| 17:57 | I'm assuming/hoping there's some reason why I didn't merge my old code directly. | |
| 17:58 | gmcharlt | slef: the formatting of heading search results should be moved entirely to the templates |
| 17:59 | an authority search returns a bunch of authority MARC records, obviously | |
| 17:59 | from which should be parsed entities like main heading, see also, see also from, translations, etc. | |
| 18:05 | thd | is the meeting one hour from now? |
| 18:05 | |Lupin| | yes |
| 18:05 | thd | Is there an agenda posted somewhere?? |
| 18:06 | slef | yes |
| 18:06 | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=irc_meetings and top link I think | |
| 18:08 | |Lupin| | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09jul01 <-- direct link |
| 18:08 | slef | ta |Lupin| - I don't have working copy-paste from the kitchen :) |
| 18:09 | |Lupin| | :-) |
| 18:09 | nowadays coffee machines should have that ! | |
| 18:11 | thd | perhaps slef makes coffee the old fashioned way |
| 18:11 | slef | thd: I chew the beans and boil the water with a lens |
| 18:12 | thd | I just drink water. It is easier :) |
| 18:12 | owen | Aren't we all fancy with our lens! |
| 18:12 | I trek 300 miles to the nearest active volcano in search of boiling water. | |
| 18:14 | slef | owen: if I had copy-paste, I'd rework the Four Yorkshiremen sketch now |
| 18:14 | Sharon | Owen - do you all 'hide' the call number display in the OPAC, especially when it shows the LC call number from the Bib? (Call Number: PS3555.V2126 M48 2004 ) |
| 18:14 | owen | Can you show me an example? |
| 18:15 | Sharon | http://catalog.nexpresslibrary[…]h.pl?q=metro+girl - 3rd record down |
| 18:16 | owen | Well, editing your XSL stylesheet is the obvious answer...not the greatest answer if you don't have access to those files |
| 18:16 | |Lupin| | brb |
| 18:16 | atz | if it is in an identifiable <span>, then you can use custom CSS |
| 18:17 | owen | That's the trouble atz, it isn't. |
| 18:17 | atz | it's a fairly easy enhancement to produce |
| 18:17 | owen | Which raises the question: should every line that comes out of the XSLT display have a unique ID for this purpose? |
| 18:17 | Sharon | I'll add it to bugzilla, then. It's just one of those things that drives me nuts. |
| 18:18 | atz | owen: yeah, i think that should be a general guideline |
| 18:18 | gmcharlt | owen: class names, at least |
| 18:18 | Sharon | Liz isn't here to chime in, but being able to pick and choose what displays would be great. |
| 18:18 | gmcharlt | owen: unique IDs would be nice, as long as uniqueness was guaranteed |
| 18:18 | owen | It'd have to be class names for the search results screen |
| 18:19 | slef | ok, I'm going to grab dinner and return just before the meeting |
| 18:19 | owen | I just hate to see the XSL option being used but the flexibility of it not being able to be tapped. |
| 18:46 | Crusoe | hi all |
| 18:46 | pianohacker | hi, Crusoe |
| 18:47 | |Lupin| | hi Crusoe |
| 18:57 | joetho | Tee minus four minutes. |
| 18:57 | Ignition sequence. | |
| 19:00 | gmcharlt | howdy folks |
| 19:00 | time to get this show on the road | |
| 19:00 | welcome to the 1/2 July general IRC meeting of the Koha project | |
| 19:01 | let | |
| 19:01 | let's start with a show of virtual hands, i.e., roll call | |
| 19:01 | and ... go! | |
| 19:01 | pianohacker | present |
| 19:01 | gmcharlt | gmcharlt = Galen Charlton |
| 19:01 | slef | MJ Ray at software.coop |
| 19:01 | jdavidb | here! |
| 19:01 | cait | katrin fischer here |
| 19:01 | atz | Joe Atzberger, LibLime |
| 19:01 | pianohacker | <-- Jesse Weaver |
| 19:01 | wizzyrea | wizzyrea= Liz Rea, NEKLS |
| 19:01 | jdavidb | jdavidb == J. David Bavousett, PTFS. |
| 19:01 | danielsweeney | danielsweeney = Daniel Sweeney at LibLime |
| 19:01 | dbirmingham | Chatting |
| 19:01 | owen | Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library |
| 19:01 | sekjal | Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries |
| 19:01 | Colin | Colin Campbell (ptfs-europe) here |
| 19:01 | brendan | Brendan Gallagher - ByWater Solutions |
| 19:02 | |Lupin| | |Lupin| = Sébastien HInderer |
| 19:02 | collum | Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library |
| 19:02 | tajoli | tajoli == Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy) |
| 19:02 | hdl_laptop | hi |
| 19:02 | schuster | David Schuster - Plano ISD |
| 19:02 | dbirmingham | = David Birmingham, PTFS |
| 19:02 | jmr | John Rose, PTFS |
| 19:02 | marla | Marla Rutherford, INCOLSA |
| 19:02 | Crusoe | Crusoe = Andrei V. Toutoukine (Ivanovo, Russia) |
| 19:02 | hdl_laptop | hdl : Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre |
| 19:02 | joetho | Joe Tholen SEKnFIND consortium Southeast Kansas |
| 19:02 | MickeyCoalwell | Mickey Coalwell NEKLS |
| 19:03 | thd | Thomas Dukleth |
| 19:03 | Sharon | Sharon Moreland, NEKLS |
| 19:04 | Brooke | Hi |
| 19:04 | Patmac | Patrick Mackeown, Litarena |
| 19:04 | gmcharlt | ok, thanks all - stragglers, feel free to announce yourselves, but we'll get started with the agenda |
| 19:04 | wiki page for this meeting is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09jul01 | |
| 19:05 | agenda items are | |
| 19:05 | 1. | |
| 19:05 | Update on Roadmap to 3.2 | |
| 19:05 | 2. | |
| 19:05 | Update on Koha 3.0 Roadmap | |
| 19:05 | 3. | |
| 19:05 | Follow-up on actions from General Meeting on Wednesday, 3 June 2009 | |
| 19:05 | 4. | |
| 19:05 | Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel | |
| 19:05 | 5. | |
| 19:05 | Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and has a switch to disable this. | |
| 19:05 | first, a quick 3.2 update - relatively same status as last month | |
| 19:05 | regarding BibLibre's new_acq, WIP branch will be ready soon | |
| 19:06 | some nits have been identified | |
| 19:06 | but I think the main blocker for merging it into head | |
| 19:06 | slef | pre-pre-alpha release some time in June 2009? http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]opment:roadmap3.2 |
| 19:06 | gmcharlt | will be adding an ungrade path |
| 19:06 | slef: early July now, obviously - holiday activity for me this weekend | |
| 19:07 | before I drive to my mother-in-law's :) | |
| 19:07 | slef | gmcharlt: any impact on other dates yet? |
| 19:07 | heh, happy holiday :-/ | |
| 19:07 | gmcharlt | slef: no |
| 19:07 | Colin | It would be useful to see a feature branch real soon now. We have sites who are v. acq concerned |
| 19:07 | gmcharlt | noted |
| 19:07 | I'm also in discussion with hdl_laptop about getting a tree put up with BibLibre's SOPAC and other work | |
| 19:08 | schuster | Sorry clarify WIP branch? |
| 19:08 | gmcharlt | WIP = work in progress |
| 19:08 | hdl_laptop | work in progress |
| 19:08 | schuster | Sorry - librarian hat today. |
| 19:08 | hdl_laptop | we should do publicize it this week |
| 19:09 | gmcharlt | snap |
| 19:09 | Colin | Does the acq work have any hooks for EDI integration? |
| 19:09 | hdl_laptop | Colin unfortunately no. |
| 19:09 | not at the moment. | |
| 19:09 | gmcharlt | Colin: not specifically, no - note that I believe slef is intrested in the general EDI integration issue |
| 19:09 | slef | hdl_laptop: please get in touch with davi about EDI integration in a couple of weeks |
| 19:10 | |Lupin| | is there some doc available somewhere about BibLibre's current works ? |
| 19:10 | hdl_laptop | there is some on the wiki |
| 19:11 | slef | |Lupin|: in theory, it should all be in the rfc3.2 wiki pages and enh bugs on bugs.koha.org |
| 19:11 | hdl_laptop | But if you are asking about user doc, then answer is no. |
| 19:11 | gmcharlt | regarding dates, I'll be pushing for a pre-alpha or alpha by end of month - mostly just as another milestone |
| 19:12 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: no no, just an overall description of what you guys aredoing |
| 19:12 | hdl_laptop | (July ) |
| 19:12 | gmcharlt | in other 3.2 / 3.0 news, I'm working with HDL to ensure that 3.0.x -> 3.2 DBs revs will work correctly |
| 19:13 | on the assumption that people may just want to upgrade from 3.0.x to 3.2 rather than install anew ;) | |
| 19:13 | atz | yes, i think i filed a bug on that topic |
| 19:14 | cait | which release will probably include acq? |
| 19:14 | gmcharlt | cait: 3.2 |
| 19:14 | feel free to ask further 3.2 questions, but let's move on to 3.0.x update from hdl_laptop | |
| 19:15 | schuster | Are circulation sounds in 3.2? Seem I saw that someplace...? |
| 19:15 | hdl_laptop | Well there has been a bug fix release for 3.0.2 which had 2 major problems. |
| 19:15 | gmcharlt | schuster: yeah, that patch is floating around and will almost certainly be incorporated |
| 19:16 | schuster | 13Small jig done in office... |
| 19:16 | wizzyrea | Jigs done at NEKLS too |
| 19:16 | sekjal | is there any way for us to get a preview of the other new functionality of 3.2... course reserves, or the holdings/summary records? |
| 19:17 | hdl_laptop | I am now working on reconciliation of head upon 3.0.3 so that we can release a "stable" version for every body |
| 19:17 | davi | hdl_laptop, sure |
| 19:17 | slef | hdl_laptop: Has 3.0.3 delayed 3.0.4 (was 3) testing at all? |
| 19:17 | Brooke | hooray for stability |
| 19:18 | hdl_laptop | sekjal: I think that companies will be able to post their wip trees so that ppl can look at it. |
| 19:18 | gmcharlt | sekjal: features are still in testing by sponsoring company |
| 19:18 | hdl_laptop | We still have to find a way to organize. |
| 19:18 | gmcharlt | sponsoring customer, rather |
| 19:19 | wizzyrea | (though it might be nice to know who is sponsoring what, maybe they'd let you have a peek) |
| 19:19 | hdl_laptop | (wip trees on validated features, i mean ;) ) |
| 19:19 | slef | wizzyrea: in theory, it should all be in the rfc wiki pages and enh bugs on bugs.koha.org |
| 19:20 | davi | anyway, I way to list then would be great. We could list then at gnuherds.org maybe |
| 19:20 | them* | |
| 19:20 | pianohacker | slef: Now, the next step is to replace you with a munin plugin |
| 19:21 | wizzyrea | slef: yep. Often the enhancement bugs don't say WHO is doing it, just that they are. |
| 19:21 | slef | davi: sure, for the ones which are seeking cosponsors. I should update schuster's wiki instructions with a link to gnuherds |
| 19:21 | davi | slef, agreed |
| 19:21 | slef | wizzyrea: it should be marked as assigned to someone |
| 19:22 | wizzyrea | slef: but it doesn't show who they are doing it for. |
| 19:22 | joetho | I agree too, and I wonder if enhancements should be entirely separate from bugs. |
| 19:22 | Brooke | I think so jow |
| 19:22 | joe even | |
| 19:22 | schuster | We had this discussion already and decided to try using bugs.koha.org for the time being. |
| 19:22 | wizzyrea | I think we were trying to do a double pronged approach, bugs to show sponsored with accompanying wiki page |
| 19:22 | joetho | I am aware of that. |
| 19:22 | atz | enhancements are already "separate enough" from bugs using the ticketing features available |
| 19:22 | gmcharlt | I've expressed this before, but I prefer that we have a single enhancements & defects database |
| 19:22 | schuster | At least some of us had this at Koha)09. |
| 19:23 | wizzyrea | fwiw, it's getting easier :) |
| 19:23 | joetho | yes, it is |
| 19:24 | schuster | Currently I think it is hard enough trying to find out what enhancements people are WORKING on let alone what we would like to see. Ok I'll sit in the corner now with my hands off the keyboard. |
| 19:24 | wizzyrea | reporters need to be diligent about posting their RFC's |
| 19:24 | davi | gmcharlt, it the project would use Trac it could both use the ticket feature for bug and for feature request |
| 19:24 | wizzyrea | <- is guilty of not always doing it. :( |
| 19:25 | slef | davi: can we finish reviewing/torturing/breaking it before we go advocating it? ;-) |
| 19:25 | davi | slef, sorry |
| 19:26 | slef | np... gmcharlt, hdl_laptop, your turn? |
| 19:26 | gmcharlt | continuing on - wiki.koha.org relicensing remains open |
| 19:26 | backburnered, but clearly the poll should be held at some point soon | |
| 19:27 | davi | slef, it is just that I am almost sure Trac would works for these needs, but it was just a comment |
| 19:27 | I have a very positive experience using Trac for both bugs, and feature request | |
| 19:27 | slef | davi: I think you're right, but I fear landmines until I try running it. |
| 19:27 | gmcharlt | I'm not sure where the welcome message issue has gotten to, but we can ping nengard about after the meeting |
| 19:27 | slef | gmcharlt: are you pinging? |
| 19:28 | ricardo | Hi everyone |
| 19:28 | davi | slef, ok |
| 19:28 | gmcharlt | slef: yes |
| 19:28 | ricardo | gmcharlt: "Welcome message issue"? |
| 19:28 | slef | gmcharlt: or I can combine it with another mail |
| 19:28 | schuster | davi slef - some of us are just figuring out what systems are there now don't change anything! |
| 19:28 | slef | ricardo: "it's meant to provide a useful set of links and information whenever somebody subscribes to the Koha mailing list" |
| 19:28 | (quoting gmcharlt from last month) | |
| 19:29 | ricardo | slef: OK. "Welcome message" for mailing list subscriptions. Got it. Thanks :) |
| 19:29 | slef | schuster: Change or Die! http://www.fastcompany.com/node/52717/print |
| 19:29 | gmcharlt | welcome message draft is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]koha_list_welcome |
| 19:29 | schuster | Hey... We just switched from a proprietary ILS give me some time...;) |
| 19:29 | gmcharlt | y |
| 19:30 | slef | hehe |
| 19:30 | gmcharlt | needs more content - everybody should feel free to edit wiki page |
| 19:30 | to help nengard out | |
| 19:30 | Brooke | Oooh, hot welcome :) |
| 19:30 | One day, I'll grow up, be civilised, and speak proper Maori | |
| 19:31 | schuster | I'll do my part tomorrow on the edit - then others can edit for correctness! |
| 19:31 | gmcharlt | I've reminded nengard about it |
| 19:31 | in terms of other issues on the agenda | |
| 19:31 | we have a couple | |
| 19:32 | first by |Lupin| - Addition of ?Skip to content? links in the staff client, as discussed on Koha-devel | |
| 19:32 | |Lupin|: want to start the discussion? | |
| 19:32 | |Lupin| | yep... |
| 19:32 | well | |
| 19:32 | not much more to say that what was in the post | |
| 19:33 | I'd be interested in hearing what the community thinks... | |
| 19:33 | gmcharlt | (post = http://www.mail-archive.com/ko[…]rg/msg02322.html) |
| 19:33 | |Lupin| | in particular does the eature interest people, how much energy is there to do the job... |
| 19:33 | thd | I am not certain what is actually intended by skip to content. |
| 19:33 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: thanks |
| 19:34 | owen | http://soap.stanford.edu/show.php?contentid=56 |
| 19:34 | |Lupin| | thd: it's a link which would be visible only in browsers that don't use CSS and that, when followed, brings to th real content of the page |
| 19:34 | Brooke | that would really give us a leg up in terms of accessibility |
| 19:35 | pianohacker | Hmm. Very quick test says that #doc3 might be a possible target for a Skip to Content link; not sure how many pages have it, but it works on moremember.pl in ie6 and ff3 on linux |
| 19:35 | Brooke | it would be a labour of love, but well worth it in terms of community value |
| 19:36 | jdavidb | It would be nice, particularly for the non-CSS browsers. For CSS-enabled browsers, hide that rascal, since even on eety-beety-netbooks, you don't need it. |
| 19:36 | owen | #doc3 is not universal |
| 19:36 | pianohacker | owen: Okay, I wasn't sure |
| 19:36 | |Lupin| | btw I had the staff client inmind, opac seems already very usable from my point of view |
| 19:36 | anyway doc3 is not very clear | |
| 19:37 | owen | The job would require considerable care and specificity in order to ensure each section was being addressed properly |
| 19:37 | |Lupin| | I'd rather have a #maintcontent |
| 19:37 | thd | It may also be useful for being especially compliant with good practises for disability access laws which is more than merely good to have. |
| 19:37 | owen | It's hard to see how this task could be accomplished in any broad manner |
| 19:37 | |Lupin| | so that ppl realize they have to include it when they do a page |
| 19:37 | owen | slef: do you have an opinion on this question? |
| 19:37 | pianohacker | |Lupin|: #doc3 is a preexisting wrapper; I agree that a clearer name would be better, especially if we have to hand-place the anchor for each page |
| 19:38 | thd | owen: why would it be difficult in a broad manner? |
| 19:38 | slef | owen: it's a good idea, the edits should be largely scriptable once identified correctly |
| 19:38 | owen: however, staff client accessibility will probably remain limited by current CSS structure and JS for some time | |
| 19:39 | |Lupin| | I think the staff client has 361 pages |
| 19:39 | owen | thd, I simply mean that the structure of pages is different enough through the staff client that there are no universally applicable existing IDs to use |
| 19:39 | |Lupin| | so perhaps once an implementation has been chosen |
| 19:39 | we may very well split the job between all of us | |
| 19:39 | thd | Consequently, some real work would be required to do it well. |
| 19:40 | |Lupin| | actually |
| 19:40 | gmcharlt | owen: that would make it an opportunity for us to take a look at the page structure and remove unnecessary inconsistencies along the way |
| 19:40 | |Lupin| | is it right tha t every page has a title such that |
| 19:40 | Administration > System preferences ? | |
| 19:40 | schuster | having the opac ADA(American Disability Act) compliant would be of more concern to me than the staff side for future migrators to Koha. |
| 19:41 | hdl_laptop | My concern is how will we ba able to test and validate ? |
| 19:41 | owen | schuster: The first step there would be to identify in what ways it is not compliant |
| 19:41 | thd | schuster: I suspect that this issue is more about good practise than actual technical compliance. |
| 19:42 | |Lupin| | hdl_laptop: is it really needed that there is some general validation ? why not just do it and wait till people test and bug reort ? |
| 19:42 | hdl_laptop | |Lupin|: ****sigh**** |
| 19:43 | slef | ooh look hdl_laptop went a pretty shade of red |
| 19:43 | joetho | It might be productive to run a few pages through the validator located at www.______________ (I have used it but not for years) |
| 19:43 | ricardo | slef: LOL |
| 19:43 | slef | validator.w3.org - but we could use tidy to check quicker |
| 19:43 | schuster | Yeah - I don't like having to be the tester with my live folks... |
| 19:44 | hdl_laptop | validator is not enough for acessibilité. |
| 19:44 | owen | http://usefularts.us/2008/09/0[…]ility-california/ |
| 19:44 | slef | hdl_laptop: but necessary foundation |
| 19:44 | owen | We're already doing the best we can to validate. |
| 19:44 | |Lupin| | hmm aren't we becoming off-topic, now ? |
| 19:45 | I mean, if you guys want to talk about accessibilit (a11y) in general, that's fine, but that was not my concern for this meeting | |
| 19:45 | joetho | I meant "checking accessibility" |
| 19:45 | owen | I'm not sure |Lupin|, I think the question remains, is it worth undertaking this extensive effort to add an accessibility feature if there are larger accessibility issues to address |
| 19:46 | ..either simultaneously or before. | |
| 19:46 | |Lupin| | owen: okay |
| 19:46 | schuster | I'm more for functionality and bug squashing than accessibility on the staff side. Sorry... my 2 cents. |
| 19:46 | |Lupin| | well there are some problematic issues I'd say |
| 19:47 | gmcharlt | schuster: they're not incompatible |
| 19:47 | Brooke | I would think that the staff opac is the large hurdle |
| 19:47 | joetho | How about asking developers working on OPAC features and functions to start ghinking about accessibility standards, to be ready for later discussion? |
| 19:47 | *thinking | |
| 19:47 | |Lupin| | e.g. adding even patron categories doesn't work without javascript... |
| 19:47 | jfk | hi hdl_laptop |
| 19:48 | hdl_laptop | hi jfk |
| 19:48 | ricardo | joetho: Sounds a good idea to me :) If there are some developers that are accessibility-oriented and that have time to start thinking / discussing / acting on accessibility,that could be nice |
| 19:48 | jfk | i'm sorry for the delay |
| 19:48 | owen | I think it's unrealistic to have, as our goal, a staff client which works perfectly without javascript. |
| 19:48 | slef | owen: depends on time frame |
| 19:48 | jfk | but we have a lot of work and today its impossible to talk |
| 19:48 | pianohacker | At this point in time, yes, exactly |
| 19:49 | jfk | i hope this is not a problem, and that we can talk another day |
| 19:49 | |Lupin| | owen: well I personnall do not ask for that. |
| 19:49 | gmcharlt | dragging us back to the specific skipnav issue |
| 19:49 | jfk | is that ok?? |
| 19:49 | wizzyrea | (i'm not saying it shouldn't be a goal, but we work with the technologies we have) |
| 19:49 | pianohacker | jfk: sure |
| 19:49 | gmcharlt | y |
| 19:49 | |Lupin| | owen: I'm just asking for a staff client that works _a bit better_ than the current one |
| 19:49 | gmcharlt | there are a couple things I think we can decide quickly |
| 19:49 | Brooke | *nod* and I think we can do a bit better |
| 19:50 | slef | trouble is, we have been moving further away... but ultimately that's because js-keen developers have had more funding than js-free ones and libraries have not been specifying js-free in their contracts. |
| 19:50 | gmcharlt | first, styling of the skipnav links |
| 19:50 | |Lupin| | how about creating a koha-a11y mailing-list where the interested persons could continue the discussion ? |
| 19:50 | slef | |Lupin|: just put it in koha-devel with a11y in subject until it gets busy enough |
| 19:50 | thd | Providing alternative functionality for JavaScript only implementations is certainly a more important accessibility issue on the staff side but someone's work on one does not stop others work on the other. |
| 19:50 | jfk | ohh, hdl_laptop, i'm Juan, |
| 19:50 | ricardo | |Lupin|: Not sure about that. Why not use Koha-devel? For instance, there's already a Koha-Zebra but it has few traffic :-S |
| 19:51 | jfk | you sent an email to Miguel to meet us here on nine o'clock |
| 19:51 | gmcharlt | and secondly, simply trying some experimental patches |
| 19:51 | |Lupin| | i'm fine with using Koha-devel |
| 19:51 | slef | gmcharlt: I'd look to copy www.bbc.co.uk on style: make "skip to content" the first link of a first ul of a first div. |
| 19:51 | |Lupin| | just wanted to avoid annoying ppl not interested in the topic |
| 19:51 | pianohacker | gmcharlt: How do you mean styling? Just basic positioning? |
| 19:51 | gmcharlt | pianohacker: yes |
| 19:52 | ricardo | |Lupin|: Understood and appreciated... Maybe create the list if the topic becomes too ... err... "loud"? |
| 19:52 | pianohacker | slef: I think that would be #toplevelmenu for most pages, which would probably work quite well |
| 19:52 | |Lupin| | ricardo: ok |
| 19:53 | gmcharlt | slef: the bbc.co.uk looks reasonable to me |
| 19:53 | pianohacker | As the target of the link, and not the link itself, is the part that is page specific |
| 19:53 | gmcharlt | pianohacker: yep |
| 19:54 | danielsweeney | ls |
| 19:54 | slef | and follow some standard of accesskeys but I can't find the UK one just now |
| 19:55 | owen | I'm a little concerned about the "unfunded mandate" nature of this proposition |
| 19:55 | How is this going to get done? | |
| 19:55 | slef | I think 2 = main content is normal, but I can't tell |
| 19:55 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: are there any specific pages where a skip-to-content link would be the most useful to you? that would be good for an experimental patch |
| 19:55 | slef | owen: seeking co-sponsors, plus best efforts otherwise ;) |
| 19:55 | wizzyrea | well.. aren't we going to have to fiddle with every template for conversion to Template::Toolkit? |
| 19:55 | ricardo | gmcharlt: nod |
| 19:56 | gmcharlt | owen: as far as doing this, as long as we can establish some guidelines, funding and/or patches will depend on people's real interest in this |
| 19:56 | slef | owen: this stuff is rather like the SQL security slog I did years ago and we didn't get paid fully for that. |
| 19:56 | owen | Yeah, I remember all the work you did on that |
| 19:56 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: perhaps the pages for adding patrons and records with a Z39.50 query ? |
| 19:56 | pianohacker | We could make a guideline that completely new pages, or major rewrites, have a target for the "Skip to navigation" link |
| 19:56 | thd | owen: It may be an unfunded mandate which libraries tend to ignore but there are some legal requirements involved whether funded or not. |
| 19:56 | gmcharlt | my main concern is making sure that the anchor is put in an include or the equivalent, so that we don't end up with 361 inconsistent skipnav links to fix in the future |
| 19:57 | slef | owen: IIRC that was a fun new year holiday ;-) |
| 19:57 | gmcharlt++ | |
| 19:57 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: yeah, header.inc might be the right place |
| 19:57 | thd | s/It/Accessibility in general/ |
| 19:58 | gmcharlt | and one of the pages that |Lupin| suggested would be a good place to hash out the implementation issues |
| 19:58 | pianohacker | I think |Lupin| has it correct, since the first li in the first ul... etc. is generated by header.inc |
| 19:58 | owen | gmcharlt: So we create a standard link target and add that target to each page |
| 19:58 | gmcharlt | re using header.inc for that purpose, how much of an annoyance is having a skpnav that goes nowhere to users of assitive software? |
| 19:58 | slef | gmcharlt: sadly typical? ;-) |
| 19:59 | owen | :D |
| 19:59 | slef | by the way, firefox users, it's Shift-Alt-accesskey to use accesskeys if you want to try it |
| 19:59 | owen | Let's duplicate header.inc temporarily for use with pages which use the new system |
| 19:59 | gmcharlt | slef: yeah, doesn't surprise me that it's typical, but do screen readers try jumping to the end of the page if the anchor doesn't exist? |
| 19:59 | thd | owen: In your link to the Target lawsuit, you also identified a possibility for negative funding. |
| 19:59 | slef | in theory, shift-alt-0 should give you a list of access keys |
| 19:59 | so we should also add a page for that | |
| 20:00 | gmcharlt: not that I've seen. jump to start if anything | |
| 20:00 | owen | Interesting, slef, I hadn't seen that before |
| 20:00 | slef | owen: there is something ironic about having an accessibility feature stuck on a shift-alt key combo |
| 20:00 | owen: my mobile phone is better - just press the number | |
| 20:01 | davi | slef, shift-alt-0 works here with bbc |
| 20:01 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: are you up to working on a sample patch, maybe with owen's help? |
| 20:01 | slef | davi: cool. I'd not tried that. 1 should be home, 2 should be skip to main |
| 20:01 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: certainly |
| 20:01 | slef | aha! http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Si[…]rmation/DG_020463 |
| 20:01 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: actually I had one almost ready |
| 20:01 | slef | compare and contrast |
| 20:02 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: removed it but not too hard to re-do |
| 20:02 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: cool - polish it up and send it to koha-devel, and we'll have something concrete to argue about ;) |
| 20:02 | davi | slef, on bbc, 1 works, but 2 change to another tab |
| 20:03 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: okay |
| 20:03 | davi | the main one. |
| 20:03 | slef | gmcharlt: troll ;) |
| 20:03 | |Lupin| | just one thing |
| 20:03 | davi | slef, So I would say such usability has a but ;) |
| 20:03 | |Lupin| | how can the link be made invisible by CSS-capable browsers ? |
| 20:03 | davi | because changing by tab out of the bbc pages ... |
| 20:04 | slef | display: none |
| 20:04 | thd | slef: I worry about accesskeys or similar functionality breaking ordinary browser keyboard shortcuts. |
| 20:04 | |Lupin| | slef: ok, thanks. NOt a CSS expert. |
| 20:04 | slef | |Lupin|: although I remember doing it another way some said was better on some sites. |
| 20:04 | |Lupin| | thd: normally it's up to the user to configure how access-keys are really made available to him, AFAIK. |
| 20:05 | gmcharlt | so I think we have some kind of resolution on that agenda item |
| 20:05 | last is Modification of bulkmarcimport so that it reminds the user to run rebuild_(no)zebra by default and hs a switch to disable this. | |
| 20:05 | I think that one was also suggested by you, |Lupin| ? | |
| 20:05 | ricardo | gmcharlt: I'm guilty of that one! ;-) |
| 20:05 | thd | |Lupin| In a public access library terminal at the library users do not have much choice. |
| 20:06 | gmcharlt | ah, go ahead ricardo |
| 20:06 | |Lupin| | thd: ok. |
| 20:06 | ah yes | |
| 20:06 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Well... The sa(i)d story is the one reported in Koha mailing list: I ran bulkmarcimport and did not get results for searches (and got strange error messages) |
| 20:06 | slef | thd: browsers should not be using accesskey combinations for shortcuts they already have. I don't know any that do. |
| 20:06 | |Lupin| | sorry I'm late in following the conversation |
| 20:07 | braille is quite slow on IRC | |
| 20:07 | ricardo | gmcharlt: |Lupin| kindly remembered me to run rebuild_(no)zebra.pl and that solved the problem, naturally |
| 20:07 | slef | |Lupin|: seriously? |
| 20:07 | |Lupin| | well I think it may save some time to both koha users and developers |
| 20:07 | if the bulkmarcmport would instruct the user about what to do | |
| 20:07 | slef: sure | |
| 20:07 | ricardo | |Lupin|: Right :) |
| 20:07 | sekjal | agreed. for bulkauthimport.pl, too |
| 20:08 | thd | slef: I think that it is similar functionality which has concerned me or when browser shortcuts are disabled by JavaScript libraries. |
| 20:08 | ricardo | sekjal: Yeah, probably. I just didn't run bulkauthimport yet, eheh |
| 20:08 | pianohacker | On that topic, does ZOOM/Zebra allow us to display error messages for an empty database or at least a failed connection? |
| 20:08 | |Lupin| | actually I think I replied the question at least three time since I'm on the list, which is not too long... and I had to ask the same quesiton on the chan |
| 20:08 | slef | thd: initial test should show if any koha JS libs interfere with these |
| 20:08 | wizzyrea | yes, it's definitely FAQ worthy |
| 20:09 | it's been answered many, many times here as well | |
| 20:09 | |Lupin| | wizzyrea: at least, and given that users almost never ead FAQs... |
| 20:09 | gmcharlt | I've no objections if somebody wants to do a patch adding such a message to bulkmarcimport, just as long as there's a way to make the script completely quiet for crontabs |
| 20:09 | ricardo | If it's just a matter of adding a print " message " to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable! ;-) |
| 20:10 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 20:10 | gmcharlt | of course, there's no guarantee that everybody will actually *read* it |
| 20:10 | |Lupin| | and a switch to disable it, please |
| 20:10 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Sure... But at least SOME will :) |
| 20:10 | Brooke | gm: you can lead a horse to water... |
| 20:10 | schuster | Sounds like a good link - FAQ - on the welcome page. |
| 20:10 | wizzyrea | well I was thinking of the default news items |
| 20:10 | actually | |
| 20:10 | gmcharlt | so to toss about another suggestion, why not have an option for bulkmarcimport to automatically call the appropriate indexing job? |
| 20:10 | wizzyrea | on a fresh install |
| 20:11 | because how many people will OOH IT"S INSTALLED and log in right then | |
| 20:11 | to look around | |
| 20:11 | before importing anything | |
| 20:11 | Brooke | hooray |
| 20:11 | gmcharlt | wizzyrea++ # yes, default news makes sense |
| 20:11 | Brooke | I <3 programmes doing logical things for me |
| 20:11 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Well... If you always need to do it, yes, I think that's a good idea. Is that always the case? |
| 20:11 | gmcharlt | ricardo: it's not always the case, but it often is |
| 20:11 | wizzyrea | is there a reason NOT to do it? |
| 20:11 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: may not be enough. If people forget it... |
| 20:11 | gmcharlt | wizzyrea: yes, there can be during data migrations |
| 20:12 | tajoli | I think could be an option to swith on the migration |
| 20:12 | wizzyrea | maybe display and option to g... yea |
| 20:12 | Brooke | mmmmmm confirmation screen |
| 20:12 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: I'm strongly in favour of the warning, because my feeling is that many people using koha do not know what they are doing, and this will be more and more true as koha becomes more and more popular |
| 20:12 | ricardo | |Lupin|++ |
| 20:13 | Brooke | aww rats, I've been found out |
| 20:13 | tajoli | We insert the instruction to use it during the INSTALL on |
| 20:13 | ly | |
| 20:13 | Sorry, I mean 'only' | |
| 20:13 | wizzyrea | I think there are probably several places it should be noted |
| 20:13 | :) | |
| 20:13 | ricardo | Maybe add a option for NOT running rebuild ... and by default run rebuild? There's a problem though... We need an additional switch to define if using Zebra or NoZebra, right? |
| 20:13 | |Lupin| | tajoli: sometimes ppl will remember to do it he first time, and then forget about it ? |
| 20:13 | oh maybe another idea | |
| 20:13 | pianohacker | ricardo: NoZebra syspref |
| 20:14 | schuster | |Lupin|++ - make sure it is documented well on install instructions... Have your spouse install it - they will tell you where it doesn't work or it isn't documented well. |
| 20:14 | gmcharlt | ricardo: well, actually, the indexing job ought to be smart enough to figure out which indexing mode the DBs uses |
| 20:14 | |Lupin| | is it possible in KOha to detect that perhaps the indexes have not been built |
| 20:14 | ? | |
| 20:14 | ricardo | pianohacker: But how do I access "NoZebra" syspref in a command line tool like "bulkmarcimport"? (Just asking... I really don't know) |
| 20:14 | |Lupin| | if it is, why not add a question in the error message |
| 20:15 | such thtat "Did you rebuild your index" ? | |
| 20:15 | hdl_laptop | C4::Context->preference("NoZebraIndex") |
| 20:15 | ricardo | hdl_laptop: Interesting. Thanks! :) |
| 20:15 | gmcharlt | ok, for the immediate term I think I hear ricardo volunteering to try a patch to add the message, and wizzyrea volunteering to update the default news |
| 20:15 | joetho | Even experts dealing with this every day could use a reminder to rebuild indexes. |
| 20:16 | ricardo | gmcharlt: I think that you're hearing things... ;-) |
| 20:16 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt++ |
| 20:16 | ricardo | OK. I might give it a shot... and quit quickly if I find myself in trouble... But I'll say it, in that case :) |
| 20:16 | gmcharlt | ricardo: am I? ;) <ricardo> If it's just a matter of adding a print " message " to the code, I think that I might add it myself (not a Perl guru, by a long shot, but I'm "print" capable! ;-) |
| 20:16 | hdl_laptop | a good boss is one who de le gates |
| 20:17 | wizzyrea | I'll look at the default news, sure |
| 20:17 | gmcharlt | ricardo++ |
| 20:17 | wizzyrea++ | |
| 20:17 | pianohacker | "We love you, we really do! Now go work." |
| 20:17 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Darn... "They" are not joking when they say "Everything that you say, *can* and *will* be used against you!" ;-) |
| 20:17 | wizzyrea | aside: do you think that the sample news items should be mandatory instead of optional? |
| 20:17 | hdl_laptop | hehe... |
| 20:17 | Brooke | hdl: de le gates? Is that French ;) |
| 20:18 | hdl_laptop | delegation ? |
| 20:18 | thd | gmcharlt: I would like to momentarily bring up an issue not on the agenda. |
| 20:18 | gmcharlt | thd: go ahead |
| 20:18 | ricardo | (actually I have a "quip" on a something related to bulkmarcimport: rebuild_(no)zebra.pl but I'll wait for thd question) |
| 20:19 | thd | no please go ahead ricardo |
| 20:19 | I am patient | |
| 20:19 | ricardo | thd: LOL! Thanks :) |
| 20:19 | This would break some compatibility... | |
| 20:19 | But I'm annoyed that: | |
| 20:19 | /rebuild_zebra.pl --help gives usage | |
| 20:19 | wizzyrea | thinking if you're going to put important stuff in there you probably want to at least make sure people will see it by default. |
| 20:20 | ricardo | /rebuild_zebra.pl --help returns "Unknown option" |
| 20:20 | (that seems easier to fix) | |
| 20:20 | but... | |
| 20:20 | "rebuild_zebra.pl" returns "Must specify -b or -a to reindex bibs or authorities" | |
| 20:20 | "rebuild_nozebra.pl" runs right away. Is that normal? | |
| 20:21 | gmcharlt | ricardo: fair point - we should decide on a conventation for command-line argument processing and stick to it |
| 20:21 | davi | gmcharlt++ |
| 20:21 | schuster | Wizzyrea - link to manual on editing news - maybe link to welcome page on Wiki? or am I on the wrong page? |
| 20:22 | gmcharlt++ | |
| 20:22 | davi | gmcharlt, What about create a wiki page for describe the command-line argument convention? |
| 20:23 | ricardo | gmcharlt: The problem is... Some people may have already created scripts (for crontab jobs, like you said) already relying on "rebuild_nozebra.pl" running right away :-S For "--help" I think we should add "usage" instructions (I don't think that breaks any thing) |
| 20:23 | gmcharlt | davi: good idea |
| 20:23 | ricardo: yeah, adding --help to jobs that don't have it shouldn't break crontabs | |
| 20:23 | ricardo | gmcharlt: right |
| 20:24 | gmcharlt: I may try adding those instructions, *if* they are equal (or very similar) to rebuild_zebra.pl | |
| 20:24 | (for the "--help" switch, I mean) | |
| 20:25 | gmcharlt | ricardo: sounds good |
| 20:25 | ricardo | ... and then I'd submit a patch (and you or hdl may ruthlessly reject it! ;-) |
| 20:25 | gmcharlt | heh |
| 20:26 | ricardo | :) |
| 20:26 | thd: Sorry for taking your "turn". Go right ahead! :) | |
| 20:26 | davi | gmcharlt, Where is located the "Development rules" wiki for the project? We should add there the "command-line argument convertion" subsection. -- http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php#developer_links |
| 20:27 | hdl_laptop | Coding guidelines |
| 20:27 | gmcharlt | davi: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]:codingguidelines |
| 20:28 | while we're waiting, bugs.koha.org product and component is still pending | |
| 20:29 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Hmmm? There is a "Product" field and a "Component" field in bugs.koha.org... What do you mean exactly? |
| 20:30 | schuster | Sorry gmcharlt don't know if you are asking or telling??? |
| 20:30 | hdl_laptop | gmcharlt: pls go ahed, and thd will be able to speak after |
| 20:30 | gmcharlt | schuster: telling |
| 20:30 | ricardo: among other things, moving non-Koha software bug components to a separate component | |
| 20:30 | slef | hdl_laptop: is bug 3307 solved? widespread? |
| 20:30 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3307 blocker, PATCH-Sent, ---, jeanandre.santonibiblibre.com, ASSIGNED, Unable to search the catalog on the intranet side |
| 20:31 | gmcharlt | and merging together pre < 2.0 versions |
| 20:31 | hdl_laptop | slef: it is on 3.0.3 |
| 20:31 | ricardo | gmcharlt: OK, thanks |
| 20:32 | hdl_laptop: Speaking of which, may I submit the small patch described by "Amer Denni" for Bug 2599 | |
| 20:32 | munin | 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2599 major, P1, ---, henridamienkoha-fr.org, NEW, Search limits not working for NoZebra |
| 20:32 | thd | I think that in the interests of time I will defer the issue I had wanted to bring up until later |
| 20:33 | davi | gmcharlt, I have register my account at the wiki. I will add such wiki section |
| 20:33 | schuster | Are you proposing to "flag" all < 2.0 tickets as < 2.0 product or < 2. 0 component? |
| 20:33 | slef | davi: it supports openID |
| 20:33 | ricardo | slef: LOL! |
| 20:33 | hdl_laptop | ricardo: please send. |
| 20:33 | slef | sorry, I'm tired |
| 20:34 | gmcharlt | schuster: squash the version numbers |
| 20:34 | ricardo | hdl_laptop: OK. I only could test it in one environment, so feel free to test it in others, if you wish (in fact, I'll be GLAD if you do!) |
| 20:34 | davi | slef, I do not like openID, it is not secure by design! |
| 20:34 | slef | davi: it's a wiki, not launch_nuke_by_LOC.pl |
| 20:34 | davi | it is good for a wiki, because it do not requires security |
| 20:35 | schuster | So you are proposing to remove those 2 items totally? |
| 20:35 | slef | davi: ni samopinas :) |
| 20:35 | erm | |
| 20:35 | davi: ni samopinias :) | |
| 20:35 | gmcharlt | schuster: no, not remove the bugs, just adjust the version number to shorten the drop-down for version numbers when entering new bugs |
| 20:36 | hdl_laptop | gmcharlt: I have no objection to squashing version numbers. |
| 20:36 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Fine by me... At least for the really old versions |
| 20:36 | gmcharlt | OK, we're past 1.5 hours - unless somebody has another burning issue to raise, I suggest we dedicate the rest of the day to watching slef's and davi's OpenID debate |
| 20:36 | davi | As I do not use OpenID for any serious, I have not created an OpenID account, and I think I will never do, instead I use the same password elsewhere for those things, it is easier :) |
| 20:36 | schuster | gmcharlt - ok since bugs are version ignorant makes sence. |
| 20:37 | tajoli | I have new info about documentation of Koha DB level |
| 20:37 | schuster | I would like to suggest to people to also add items to the RFC or at least an enhancement in bugs.koha.org especially if you are a programmer working on something. If you want to do it or remind the person paying you to do it either way... Helps others in the community. |
| 20:37 | gmcharlt | tajoli: cool - go ahead |
| 20:37 | tajoli | We use Schema |
| 20:37 | ricardo | schuster++ |
| 20:38 | tajoli | SchemaSpy software |
| 20:38 | http://schemaspy.sourceforge.net/ | |
| 20:38 | hdl_laptop | tajoli++ it is quite good. |
| 20:38 | ricardo | tajoli: Interesting. I didn't know that one :) |
| 20:38 | tajoli | And we insert comment on table level |
| 20:39 | and on columns | |
| 20:39 | hdl_laptop | You should then insert them into kohastructure. |
| 20:39 | tajoli | Yes, but after installation |
| 20:39 | slef | gmcharlt: aw, I wanted to sleep :) |
| 20:40 | tajoli | A first version is here: http://www.koha.it/local--file[…]schemaKoha.tar.gz |
| 20:40 | I have update the wiki page of DB schema http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]elopment:dbschema | |
| 20:41 | gmcharlt | tajoli++ |
| 20:41 | ricardo | tajoli++ |
| 20:41 | tajoli | To use SchemaSpy you need a Mysql with Koha installed |
| 20:41 | ricardo | (How does one ask the "munin" bot about karma? :) |
| 20:41 | slef | @karma ricardo |
| 20:41 | munin | slef: Karma for "ricardo" has been increased 4 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 4. |
| 20:42 | ricardo | slef: Thanks! :) |
| 20:42 | ebegin | ricardo-- ;) |
| 20:42 | ricardo++ | |
| 20:42 | ricardo | ebegin: I was expecting that ;-) |
| 20:42 | gmcharlt | heh |
| 20:42 | tajoli | For relations (the most imporant think) it use FK, indexes, PK and columns with the same name |
| 20:42 | ricardo | tajoli: Nice |
| 20:43 | cait | tajoli: looks great |
| 20:44 | hdl_laptop | hi cait. |
| 20:44 | tajoli | So in fact it has a problem: the name of colums. For example the name 'id' is use in different table as PK but the tables are not reletad between them |
| 20:45 | cait | hdl: hi :) |
| 20:45 | ricardo | tajoli: Hmmm... And does it do that for both MyISAM and InnoDB tables? |
| 20:45 | tajoli | We plan to have a beta version with more comment on 10 July |
| 20:45 | gmcharlt | ok, thanks tajoli |
| 20:45 | tajoli | Now Koha has only InnoDB tables. |
| 20:46 | ricardo | tajoli: OK. I wasn't sure about that. Thanks. That is a problem then, as you say |
| 20:46 | tajoli | In MyISAM the FK are not working but you can set them |
| 20:46 | gmcharlt | we're at 1.75 hours, so I'm calling the meeting closed |
| 20:46 | tajoli | Probably it could read FK in MYISAM |
| 20:46 | gmcharlt | I'm calling the next general IRC meeting for first Wednesday of August, i.e., 5 August |
| 20:47 | Brooke | cool |
| 20:47 | gmcharlt | thanks, everybody |
| 20:47 | ricardo | gmcharlt: OK... Is there some agenda for that meeting? One topic that I think will *need* to be addressed / discussed is the translation ... hmmm.. framework (for the SQL, JS files) to remove redundancies and inconsistencies... But it sounds to be a job for a big rewrite in some parts :( |
| 20:48 | (Maybe there's already a RFC for that, don't know... I must search for it) | |
| 20:49 | cait | add translation for xslt files |
| 20:49 | |Lupin| | any idea aboutthe time ? |
| 20:49 | gmcharlt | we can try the time used for the 3 June meeting - 10:00 UTC+0 |
| 20:50 | ricardo | gmcharlt: Sure. For me (in Portugal) that hour is great (it would be 11AM here). |
| 20:50 | |Lupin| | didn't you want to change the time for each meeting ? |
| 20:51 | ricardo | cait: Thanks for the additional tip! :) |
| 20:53 | gmcharlt | ricardo: started wiki page for next meeting - feel free to add agenda items |
| 20:53 | ricardo | gmcharlt: You are really good at that "de-le-ga-ting" thing, you know? ;-) |
| 20:54 | (just kidding, eheh...) | |
| 20:54 | gmcharlt | ricardo++ |
| 20:54 | |Lupin| | anyway |
| 20:54 | gmcharlt | the link is http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09aug05 , btw |
| 20:55 | |Lupin| | gmcharlt: thanks a lot for havin run this meeting and having done it so well, it was great |
| 20:55 | ricardo | |Lupin|++ |
| 20:55 | gmcharlt++ | |
| 20:55 | |Lupin| | :) |
| 20:55 | gmcharlt | thanks |
| 20:55 | ricardo | :) |
| 20:55 | Brooke | feel free to send me boring Librarian queries, for now, it's Miller time! |
| 20:56 | ricardo | Brooke: Can't you send me a "Miller" from there to Portugal? ;-) |
| 20:56 | wizzyrea | oh man, beer. |
| 20:56 | gah, still an hour to go | |
| 20:56 | ricardo | wizzyrea: LOL! |
| 20:57 | wizzyrea | :) |
| 20:57 | the only thing that would make it better would be a pool + beer | |
| 20:57 | ricardo | Speaking of which... It's (late) dinner time (late because this meeting started at 8PM for me, eheh. Take care everyone! |
| 20:57 | wizzyrea++ | |
| 20:57 | ;-) | |
| 20:57 | wizzyrea | hee ty |
| 20:57 | ricardo | You're welcome :) |
| 20:57 | (out!) | |
| 20:59 | |Lupin| | btw, is it onpurpose that the chan doens't have a topic ? |
| 21:00 | gmcharlt | |Lupin|: not particularly, we just don't consistenly have op |
| 21:02 | brendan | so long #koha folks |
| 21:03 | slef | bye bye brendan |
| 21:03 | brendan | enjoy the evening! |
| 21:03 | Brooke | see ya brendan |
| 21:03 | pianohacker | gmcharlt: Does munin have a chanserv-like mode? |
| 21:04 | Brooke | okay for serious, time for me to cook dinner before Ulduar |
| 21:04 | slef | http://www.burnham-on-sea.com/webcam/ |
| 21:04 | |Lupin| | whether has been terribly hot in Paris these dys... Ppl can hardly sleep |
| 21:04 | slef | neighbouring town but faces the sunset |
| 21:04 | gmcharlt | pianohacker: yes, it has a ChanServer module |
| 21:04 | wizzyrea | owen: brilliant blog post |
| 21:05 | drat, he's gone | |
| 21:05 | |Lupin| | slef: where are you from again ? |
| 21:06 | slef | |Lupin|: I'm just north of Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, England |
| 21:06 | |Lupin| | slef: ok |
| 21:10 | schuster | wizzyrea - prompted by my stupidity! |
| 21:12 | pianohacker | wizzyrea: url? |
| 21:12 | wizzyrea | http://www.myacpl.org/koha/?p=237 |
| 21:13 | schuster: pff, not stupid. We actually went over kind of the same thing a while back while I was doing jquery/css in the staff client | |
| 21:13 | he probably figured he'd answered it twice, might as well post it :) | |
| 21:15 | slef | "Nefarious webmasters are likely to swap out the image for something you don’t want to see!" |
| 21:21 | davi | Initial draft about comand-line conventions added |
| 21:21 | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]ument_conventions | |
| 21:21 | Expand it if needed. It just try to be a note to start the discussion | |
| 21:23 | As proposal of convention rules: hGNU coding standards, ttp://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/ | |
| 21:23 | h* | |
| 21:25 | |Lupin| | see you later all, time to go sleeping here. bye ! |
| 21:28 | wizzyrea | last seen times = time stamp on the server, right? |
| 21:28 | not the time stamp on the client | |
| 21:29 | gmcharlt | @last wizzyrea |
| 21:29 | munin | gmcharlt: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message (1 more message) |
| 21:29 | gmcharlt | @seen wizzyrea |
| 21:29 | munin | gmcharlt: wizzyrea was last seen in #koha 39 seconds ago: <wizzyrea> not the time stamp on the client |
| 21:29 | slef | oh no, not the time stamp on the client! |
| 21:30 | wizzyrea | (someone asked, I wanted to give a definitive answer, I assumed server time) |
| 21:30 | (well I meant in koha, sillies) | |
| 21:30 | you know, where there is a list of "last seen" | |
| 21:30 | gmcharlt | wizzyrea: well, @seen is relatively, it appears |
| 21:31 | wizzyrea | ok, lol |
| 21:31 | in koha | |
| 21:31 | in the item records | |
| 21:31 | slef | server time |
| 21:31 | wizzyrea | you can look at checkout history |
| 21:31 | slef | I'd bet that |
| 21:31 | wizzyrea | ty |
| 21:31 | :) | |
| 21:31 | gmcharlt | I get it now |
| 21:31 | slef | we had much fun with people not setting server timezones in 2.0 |
| 21:31 | wizzyrea | (aside: the last seen columns aren't consistent, they show different things) |
| 21:32 | gmcharlt: *giggle* | |
| 21:32 | slef | do *not* get me started on koha date handling :) |
| 21:40 | IrmaCalyx | good morning/goog night/good bye all...off to 1st appointment of the day. Thanks for the meeting:-) |
| 21:57 | chris | back |
| 22:08 | Jo | Moirning Chris |
| 22:08 | chris | hey jo, ack forgot to email you |
| 22:08 | 2 secs | |
| 22:13 | off it goes, stats should be in your mailbox soon | |
| 22:15 | Jo | yay - thanks Chris. |
| 22:15 | Danny working through them now | |
| 22:15 | chris | cool |
| 22:16 | pianohacker | Hey chris. What have you been up to? |
| 22:17 | chris | meetings about keywords for a cuisine website |
| 22:17 | 9am meeting, meant i had to catch the early bus and miss the irc meeting :( | |
| 22:17 | but ill read back on the transcript | |
| 22:18 | http://catalystcoffee.com/ <-- my friend was here, using their wifi yesterday | |
| 22:22 | oh we have a koha library in hawaii, cool | |
| 22:22 | pianohacker | Yup, Hawaii State Archives |
| 22:24 | brendan | heya chris |
| 22:24 | pianohacker - howdy | |
| 22:24 | chris | hey there brendan |
| 22:24 | pianohacker | hey brendan |
| 22:24 | brendan | Sonja just made cookies ! -- happy /me |
| 22:24 | chris | heh lucky |
| 22:29 | brendan | is there somewhere to go for vmware images of koha, besides the extension manager? |
| 22:30 | just following through kylehall's page now - maybe I'm answering my own questions | |
| 22:32 | think I'm all good :) | |
| 22:32 | chris | :) |
| 22:34 | ricardo | Back (kinda...) |
| 22:34 | Hi chris ! :) | |
| 22:35 | pianohacker | Off to meeting, bye all |
| 22:35 | chris | hiya ricardo :) |
| 22:36 | ricardo | I'm resuming work in a Virtual Machine running openSUSE 11.0, git and Koha 3.0.x / MASTER branch and 2 databases (one for Koha 3.0.X and the other for MASTER)... The setup is still a bit "mixed up" :( |
| 00:08 | Sleep time. Take care! | |
| 02:43 | atz | gmcharlt: is kohaspsuggest dead? |
| 02:50 | chris | what does kohapsuggest do? |
| 02:53 | atz | it tries to do 2 insanely unrelated things on a totally different db_host:database:user:password: |
| 02:53 | chris | ahh |
| 02:53 | atz | (1) get spelling suggestions |
| 02:53 | (2) log the query | |
| 02:54 | chris | sounds like it should die to me |
| 02:54 | atz | totally unsupported by the installer, afaict |
| 02:54 | i think the original is kados code | |
| 02:56 | chris | ahh probably something left over from the dev_week branch |
| 02:57 | atz | i think zebra effectively destoyed the rationale for such a cumbersome feature |
| 02:58 | chris | yep |
| 03:00 | ahh its left over from 2.2.x | |
| 03:00 | http://liblime.com/products/ko[…]ancement-features | |
| 03:01 | http://lists.koha.org/pipermai[…]ember/006415.html | |
| 03:01 | atz | wow, almost all features that are not working now. |
| 03:02 | chris | yeah :( |
| 03:02 | atz | really crappy implementation for spellcheck though... need a whole separate DB? wtf? |
| 03:02 | chris | yeah, doing it against the one we already have seems more sensible |
| 03:31 | Amit | hi chris, brendan |
| 03:31 | good morning #koha | |
| 03:53 | brendan | hello amit |
| 03:53 | Amit | heya brendan |
| 07:33 | chris | morning europe |
| 07:35 | hdl_laptop | hi chris |
| 07:37 | eiro | hello world |
| 07:55 | chris | hows it going mason? |
| 07:55 | you staying up there? | |
| 07:56 | mason | naw, werking late - on nightly fines stuff |
| 07:57 | chris | ahhh |
| 07:57 | go live is getting close eh | |
| 07:57 | mason | getting there... i have a bunch of useful stuff to commit back, when i get this finished |
| 07:57 | hdl_laptop | hi mason |
| 07:57 | mason | yeah |
| 07:57 | heya hdl | |
| 07:58 | chris | awesome |
| 07:59 | mason | i just downloaded FF 3.5 last nite, looks good |
| 07:59 | chris | yeah, nice and fast |
| 08:00 | mason | i was trying to use its JS profiler on the addbiblio..tmpl jscript |
| 08:01 | i have to say the save/validate speed of addbiblio.pl is very fast on my 2ghz lappy | |
| 08:03 | chris | *nod* |
| 08:03 | even faster with chromium | |
| 08:03 | mason | on deb/ubuntu ? |
| 08:03 | chris | yep |
| 08:04 | deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/chrom[…]-daily/ppa/ubuntu intrepid main | |
| 08:11 | mason | ok, me off... |
| 09:08 | thd | chris: are you still awake? |
| 09:08 | hdl_laptop: you must be awake | |
| 09:09 | hdl_laptop | I am |
| 09:09 | chris | yep i am |
| 09:09 | thd | Why are we updating borrowers.dateenrolled as if it is borrowers.datemodified |
| 09:09 | ? | |
| 09:10 | chris | we are? we shouldn't be |
| 09:10 | thd | There is no borrowers.datemodified |
| 09:10 | chris | where is it doing that? |
| 09:11 | thd | I have not looked to find where the code is doing that yet but the evidence is very good |
| 09:11 | If you update a patron record, borrowers.dateenrolled changes. | |
| 09:13 | chris | C4::Members is the only place where it is changed |
| 09:16 | in ModMember | |
| 09:20 | doesnt change it for me | |
| 09:20 | unless i delete the value in the registration date in the form | |
| 09:21 | seems to set it to whatever is in the form for me | |
| 09:21 | atz | possibly if you move the record from deletedborrowers |
| 09:21 | chris | jeez dont you americans ever sleep? :-) |
| 09:26 | thd | no apparently not |
| 09:27 | maybe the report I had been answering is because of user error in modifying a patron record | |
| 09:27 | chris | if they change the date, it certainly changes |
| 09:28 | that seems to be the behaviour i am seeing | |
| 09:29 | thd | It is certainly called by ModMember for date format wrangling |
| 09:29 | chris | yep, but whatever is in the form is passed to it |
| 09:31 | thd | atz made another suggestion about a possible user procedure issue. |
| 09:31 | 99% of all bugs are user error. | |
| 09:31 | chris | it certainly isnt setting it to be the last modified date, thats for sure |
| 09:32 | not when editing a borrower | |
| 09:32 | thd | I assumed I was on to something when I found no column for modified date. |
| 09:43 | chris: I totally misread the report | |
| 09:43 | chris: It was a sort order problem | |
| 09:44 | No I read it right | |
| 09:44 | User error. | |
| 09:49 | chris | pebkac :) |
| 09:49 | thd | pebkac? |
| 09:51 | hdl_laptop | problem is between keybord and computer |
| 09:51 | chris | problem exists between keyboard and chair |
| 09:51 | thd | yes, I see it warrants a Wikipedia article |
| 10:00 | Eliminate PEBKAC. Only machines should be allowed to do data entry. | |
| 10:28 | Elwell_ | thd: take the humans out the loop? how about a nice game of chess? |
| 10:29 | chris | ill be back |
| 10:30 | sorry dave i cant do that | |
| 10:30 | etc etc | |
| 10:30 | :) |
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