| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:12 |
kados |
hey foxnorth |
| 12:17 |
|
foxnorth: hows the fixed field stuff coming? |
| 12:17 |
foxnorth |
hey kados-- |
| 12:17 |
|
i was away yesterday but i'm looking foward to getting it finished! |
| 12:18 |
kados |
w00t |
| 12:18 |
slef |
karma kados? |
| 12:18 |
dewey |
kados has karma of -2 |
| 12:18 |
kados |
:( |
| 12:18 |
slef |
dewey++ |
| 12:18 |
foxnorth |
kados: actually, i could probably commit what i have (which is marc21.xml and the code for setting up the fixed field editing grid), but i'm not sure if the other marc21.xml file you guys mentioned will turn up? |
| 12:19 |
kados |
foxnorth: if it doesn't I can easily contribute one |
| 12:19 |
|
foxnorth: the Koha frameworks can generate a pretty complete marc21 xml file |
| 12:20 |
|
foxnorth: http://opencat.liblime.com/cgi[…]uctureFromKoha.pl (very large file) |
| 12:20 |
|
foxnorth: I suspect we'll need a few marc21.xml files though |
| 12:20 |
|
one for each material type |
| 12:21 |
foxnorth |
kados: yeah, is that the best way to handle diff material types? |
| 12:21 |
kados |
I'm not sure |
| 12:21 |
|
I can tell you how it works in Koha |
| 12:21 |
|
we have 'frameworks' |
| 12:21 |
foxnorth |
kados: that would be great-- |
| 12:21 |
kados |
and you can define tags and subfields for each framework |
| 12:22 |
|
and behavior for each of those |
| 12:22 |
foxnorth |
there would be a framework for marc21 and one for unimarc? |
| 12:22 |
kados |
so things like authorized values, plugins, default values, authorities, etc |
| 12:22 |
foxnorth |
ah, as well as authorized values... |
| 12:22 |
kados |
well, there are multiple frameworks for marc21 |
| 12:22 |
|
and for unimarc |
| 12:22 |
foxnorth |
i see, library-dependent? |
| 12:22 |
kados |
http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]blio_framework.pl |
| 12:23 |
|
yea, libraries can define new ones |
| 12:23 |
|
we haven't really properly finished the marc21 support though |
| 12:23 |
foxnorth |
thanks |
| 12:23 |
kados |
the frameworks we have aren't fully defined |
| 12:23 |
foxnorth |
ah i see. |
| 12:23 |
kados |
and the material types aren't per the marc specification |
| 12:23 |
foxnorth |
Is that why i'll need to define the plugins you mentioned (type-r-008-marc21.pl)? they're not yet set up? |
| 12:24 |
kados |
libraries tend to use local practices to define what frameworks they want to set up |
| 12:24 |
foxnorth |
ah interesting. |
| 12:24 |
kados |
exactly |
| 12:24 |
foxnorth |
ok |
| 12:24 |
jaron |
so you could have a monograph and a serials framework for marc21 |
| 12:24 |
kados |
but ... keep in mind, if there's a better way, we don't have to stick with what we've done before |
| 12:24 |
|
jaron: yep |
| 12:24 |
|
jaron: and they could have different leader plugins |
| 12:24 |
jaron |
yes |
| 12:24 |
kados |
jaron: and 008 plugins, etc. |
| 12:25 |
foxnorth |
on a side note, can you point me to the most current docs for setting koha up w/ zebra? and running the z3950-daemon? I need to get this set up so i can test the saveToKoha etc... :) |
| 12:25 |
kados |
and a different set of visible fields |
| 12:25 |
foxnorth |
i see.... |
| 12:25 |
jaron |
I wonder if there would be a way to just do partial frameworks that share common fields |
| 12:25 |
kados |
don't need to run the z3950-daemon anymore, that's deprecated |
| 12:25 |
foxnorth |
yeah, in marc21 lots of diff formats use similar fixed fields |
| 12:25 |
|
oh ok-- didn't realize that!! |
| 12:26 |
jaron |
instead of having to maintain a file for each framework (material type or whatever use a library makes of a framework) you'd have one master framework and then partial ones that overlay the master one. |
| 12:26 |
|
does that even make sense? |
| 12:26 |
kados |
jaron: yes, it does |
| 12:26 |
|
hard to implement though I think |
| 12:26 |
foxnorth |
yeah, that sounds like a good idea.... |
| 12:27 |
jaron |
kados: probably right. |
| 12:27 |
|
well, I guess the challenge right now is just getting it working |
| 12:27 |
kados |
:-) |
| 12:27 |
jaron |
kados: about that OID z39.50 question |
| 12:28 |
|
kados: zoom does convert the recordsyntax string to OID but only shows you the string form of it |
| 12:28 |
|
kados: I'm not sure whether zoom knows about ibermarc though |
| 12:29 |
kados |
jaron: yea, I've got a support question in to Index Data about which OIDs it knows about |
| 12:29 |
jaron |
but Net-Z3950-ZOOM does know about it |
| 12:33 |
|
kados: yaz user's guide lists ibermarc. but I'll be interested in indexdata's answer |
| 12:33 |
kados |
I'll post it when I hear back |
| 12:41 |
slef |
kados: can we move to oftc instead of freenode? |
| 12:43 |
kados |
slef: why? |
| 12:45 |
|
slef: i've never even heard of oftc |
| 12:47 |
lloyd |
yeah what the hell is oftc :) |
| 12:47 |
|
you'll be suggesting dal.net next :p |
| 12:48 |
slef |
OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, which hosts irc.debian.org |
| 12:49 |
|
It's a community-run IRC network and is a project of Software in the Public Interest. |
| 12:49 |
kados |
slef: the reason we want to move to freenode is to be more visible, not more obscure ;-) |
| 12:50 |
lloyd |
channel already open on freenode? |
| 12:50 |
slef |
That's a bad reason to move to freenode. We could move to any netsplit- and searchirc-indexed network to be more visible. |
| 12:51 |
kados |
I've had several folks ask us why we're not on freenode |
| 12:51 |
|
I've never had anyone ask about oftc |
| 12:51 |
lloyd |
well a lot of opensource projects have there homes on freenode |
| 12:52 |
slef |
and a lot of people run SirsiDynix. I don't like the crowd being used as an argument in favour of something. Argue on the merits. |
| 12:53 |
kados |
slef: the merit to moving to freenode is that we'll get more people involved |
| 12:53 |
lloyd |
"Two Internet Relay Chat (IRC) networks that are used heavily by free and open source software projects, freenode and the Open and Free Technology Community (OFTC), are building bridges by swapping staff and observing each other's operations. The rapprochement brings together two organizations that sprang from a single project, and may be a precursor for more intimate ties." |
| 12:53 |
kados |
IRC is obscure enough |
| 12:54 |
slef |
lloyd: yes, I know that. While interesting, it's early days. |
| 12:54 |
lloyd |
yeah only announced a couple of days ago |
| 12:54 |
|
well.. may |
| 12:54 |
|
lol |
| 12:54 |
|
slef - whats your beef with freenode? |
| 12:54 |
slef |
kados: how? freenode has too many flamers, fanboys and eccentricities like half-bans |
| 12:55 |
kados |
hasn't been my experience |
| 12:55 |
slef |
lloyd: ultimately, freenode's host organisation, PDPC, is unaccountable and out of community control. As a result, there are strange decisions, like q-bans and the begging bots and the only option users have is to either leave or talk to the brick wall of PDPC's lawyers. |
| 12:56 |
|
kados: did you see the begging bots? |
| 12:56 |
kados |
slef: nope |
| 12:57 |
slef |
I can see an argument for moving to a bigger network that is on the search engines, but freenode is still broken. |
| 13:02 |
kados |
slef: being on the search engines wasn't something I had considered |
| 13:02 |
|
dbs: just in time |
| 13:02 |
|
dbs: we're battling it out over freenode |
| 13:03 |
slef |
If we'd like to go mainstream, maybe some sort of multi-format Instant |
| 13:03 |
|
Messaging conference would be good. I'm not sure what's out there. I know we have jabber conferencing and can link to other network sometimes, but I don't think our setup can link the conferences to the other networks. |
| 13:03 |
|
kados: you mentioned being more visible. |
| 13:04 |
dbs |
slef: this is just my impression over the past few years, but it always seemed weird that koha was off on its own irc server |
| 13:05 |
|
that, along with some of the web site organization (I think the wiki was password-protected even for read access for a while a couple of years back?) |
| 13:05 |
|
made it seem like the koha project wasn't really all that open |
| 13:06 |
|
but those were just my impressions; take them for what they're worth |
| 13:06 |
slef |
dbs: the linux kernel is also off on a small net, but fine, let's move |
| 13:06 |
|
to a network, but please a safer network. |
| 13:07 |
kados |
dbs: what about the web site organiation do you find difficult? |
| 13:07 |
|
the wiki was password protected because we got hit hard with spam |
| 13:07 |
slef |
the wiki password was a crude measure by the then-hosts (NWU?) to block spam |
| 13:07 |
dbs |
kados: not so much now; things seem to have improved over the last year |
| 13:08 |
kados |
smap |
| 13:08 |
|
snap even |
| 13:09 |
slef |
kados: people searching freenode won't find all channels, same as people searching berlios won't find all downloads. |
| 13:10 |
rch |
z |
| 13:10 |
kados |
hey rch |
| 13:10 |
dbs |
slef: other than Freenode, I know EFnet also gets used (by PHP core devs for example). what other network were you thinking of? |
| 13:10 |
slef |
wow, there's a #koha on ircnet already... no topic, so I suspect it's albanian |
| 13:10 |
kados |
no topic == albanian? ;-) |
| 13:11 |
slef |
dbs: I suggest oftc.net because all koha developers can get membership of its controlling company. |
| 13:11 |
|
kados: no, but albanian is more common on ircnet than free software or Maori |
| 13:11 |
kados |
heh |
| 13:12 |
dbs |
well, at least oftc is already configured in kopete :) |
| 13:15 |
slef |
I can't get onto ircnet just now, for some reason. |
| 13:15 |
dbs |
I guess the presence of the #code4lib on freenode isn't a compelling enough reason to be close |
| 13:20 |
slef |
I wrote safer, not secure. Not sure any IRC is that secure. |
| 13:20 |
owen |
Is Freenode's user registration system an unwanted barrier to participation in #koha? |
| 13:20 |
|
then what do you mean by "safer" ? |
| 13:20 |
slef |
More sustainable, controllable, accountable. |
| 13:21 |
|
Does freenode still require users to register or they get a strange error if they try to privately message anyone? |
| 13:21 |
rch |
yep |
| 13:22 |
slef |
I guess that might be a barrier. But in general, registration isn't required? |
| 13:22 |
lloyd |
slef - linknet :) |
| 13:22 |
|
secure irc |
| 13:22 |
|
rubbish network though |
| 13:23 |
slef |
ircnet#koha is a guy in finland |
| 13:23 |
jaron |
at least with freenode registration I have a better idea of identity |
| 13:23 |
slef |
jaron: only if you nickserv info everyone. |
| 13:25 |
|
ircnet#koha op is Matti Lassila - also seen in katipo gallery |
| 13:25 |
|
http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/al[…]EE_LIBRARY_SYSTEM |
| 13:26 |
|
so I guess ircnet#koha is actually our koha |
| 13:27 |
|
http://www.technorati.com/peop[…]technorati/sadhu/ |
| 13:31 |
|
owen: kados added it to the dev meeting agenda. I asked whether he'd s/freenode/oftc |
| 13:33 |
owen |
And one of the questions (besides safety) is whether people will think to look for Koha on a particular network? |
| 13:34 |
slef |
I don't see why that's a big question. Anyone searching only one network for Koha is as stupid as anyone who searches only one download site (ibiblio, say) for Koha. |
| 13:35 |
lloyd |
why not use one of those channel linking bots? it sits on a bunch of networks and relays chat.. its quite neat |
| 13:35 |
slef |
lloyd: is that an offer to run it? ;-) |
| 13:35 |
owen |
I agree, slef, at least from my own experience. I'm more likely to search the web for information about a channel than to search a network |
| 13:36 |
lloyd |
yah i'll run if needed |
| 13:36 |
slef |
I can see arguments for either moving koha to an indexed network, or getting this server indexed. |
| 13:36 |
owen |
I still don't know what you mean when you say "more sustainable, controllable, accountable" ... But then I don't know much about administering an IRC channel |
| 13:37 |
slef |
owen: more or less: what happens if it all goes wrong for a koha user? |
| 13:37 |
owen |
How so? |
| 13:37 |
slef |
owen: hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as they say |
| 13:37 |
|
owen: say one of our users gets an AKILL (connections automatically rejected and closed down) from our chosen network. |
| 13:37 |
|
say it's not their AKILL - what do we do? |
| 13:38 |
|
s/AKILL/fault/ |
| 13:39 |
|
with freenode, we can try to take it up with their network operators, but I know some have got their own akills as a result of disputing akills (I think I've only been killed for arguing, not akilled) |
| 13:39 |
|
then we get a notice to talk to PDPC's lawyers and we can't do anything else. |
| 13:39 |
lloyd |
I reckon channel linking bot/relay bot would be great.. freenode being master as well as channels on efnet and oftc |
| 13:39 |
owen |
slef, is this something that has come up in this channel before? |
| 13:39 |
slef |
lloyd: channel linking bots were banned from freenode early on - are |
| 13:39 |
|
they allowed now? |
| 13:40 |
|
owen: don't know. |
| 13:40 |
lloyd |
slef - banned? that seems quite anal. |
| 13:42 |
slef |
owen: why? |
| 13:43 |
owen |
slef, I'm just trying to gauge the likelihood of a possible negative scenario before using that scenario to make a decision. |
| 13:44 |
kados |
slef: the benefits on being on the most popular network outweigh the possible negative aspects, especially since I've been using freenode for years with no problems |
| 13:44 |
lloyd |
anyone mind if i mess around with a relay bot? here to freenode |
| 13:45 |
kados |
and in fact, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about freenode |
| 13:45 |
|
lloyd: feel free |
| 13:45 |
owen |
kados, what do you think about the nick registration? |
| 13:45 |
kados |
well, you don't have to register to chat, just to private message |
| 13:46 |
slef |
kados: ircnet is more popular than freenode; and I've seen too |
| 13:46 |
|
complaints about freenode to feel theyare nice. |
| 13:46 |
kados |
but I do agree that's a bit annoying |
| 13:46 |
owen |
Ah, I didn't realize it was just for private messaging. |
| 13:49 |
slef |
owen: I don't know how likely it is, but I've seen it happen enough to be concerned that the problems don't seem to have been fixed. |
| 13:50 |
kados |
slef: how about this: we use freenode, and if we have problems, we evaluate what to do |
| 13:50 |
slef |
kados-- |
| 13:51 |
|
both lloyd's relay idea and more than a 3-minute meeting discussion seem better ideas |
| 13:52 |
owen |
It's going to be hard enough to cover all that ground |
| 13:52 |
slef |
so do I, so why dig your heels in? |
| 13:52 |
kados |
slef: you're the one digging :-) |
| 13:52 |
slef |
like heck |
| 13:53 |
kados |
lets take a poll |
| 13:53 |
slef |
how about keep the status quo then? If visibility is a problem, ask citylink to apply to the search engines |
| 13:53 |
|
for listing |
| 13:54 |
kados |
I think you're missing the point |
| 13:54 |
|
that was raised by some |
| 13:55 |
slef |
Maybe, so why not explain it? |
| 13:55 |
kados |
it's not that irc.katipo.co.nz isn't in search engines that's the problem |
| 13:55 |
|
it's that a lot of IRC users only use freenode |
| 13:55 |
|
and if we want to attract more developers and make it easy for them to get in tough |
| 13:55 |
|
touch even |
| 13:56 |
slef |
If you define the problem as "koha is not on freenode" then that's begging the question. |
| 13:56 |
kados |
we should have a presense on the most popular network |
| 13:56 |
|
yep, that's the problem |
| 13:56 |
|
koha's not on freenode |
| 13:56 |
slef |
so try lloyd's relay first. |
| 13:56 |
kados |
sure |
| 13:58 |
slef |
Personally, "koha's not on freenode" seems a feature not a bug. Makes it easier to be here. |
| 13:59 |
owen |
We shouldn't be looking for "easier" |
| 13:59 |
slef |
Similar to "koha lists are not on google groups" is a feature. |
| 13:59 |
kados |
slef: maybe we have different assumptions about where we want this project to go? |
| 13:59 |
owen |
We should be looking for "more people talking about koha" |
| 14:00 |
slef |
kados: I want sustainability. How about you? |
| 14:00 |
kados |
yep, sustainability requires more users |
| 14:00 |
|
to get more users we need better visibility |
| 14:00 |
slef |
Requires us to keep them, too. |
| 14:00 |
kados |
I gotta run |
| 14:00 |
|
bbl |
| 14:00 |
slef |
If #koha is on freenode, then PDPC can close us down any day. |
| 14:01 |
owen |
slef, do you know of projects who have had their channel shut down? |
| 14:02 |
slef |
Yes. Do I have the details at my fingertips? No. |
| 14:02 |
owen |
If you're suggesting that it's a possibility we need to examine the circumstances under which it may occur. |
| 14:03 |
|
Wouldn't the same be true if #koha were on OFTC ? |
| 14:04 |
slef |
We'd have at least three appeal chances: NOC (informal), OFTC constitution (formal) and SPI (parent body). |
| 14:05 |
toins |
kados: why not on irc.perl.org ? |
| 14:05 |
|
(hi all) |
| 14:05 |
slef |
toins: which network is that? |
| 14:05 |
toins |
slef: don't know |
| 14:06 |
owen |
http://www.irc.perl.org/ ? |
| 14:06 |
toins |
yep |
| 14:06 |
slef |
MAGnet |
| 14:06 |
toins |
magnet yes |
| 14:07 |
|
big perl project are there |
| 14:07 |
|
but perhaps less visibility than freenode... |
| 14:07 |
slef |
not on either search index, but might be an interesting audience |
| 14:08 |
owen |
Yeah, that doesn't address the issue of capitalizing on freenode's popularity. |
| 14:08 |
slef |
Interestingly, freenode isn't completely listed on irc.netsplit.de - it's marked as a Maverick |
| 14:08 |
|
owen: but if popularity was the main drive, ircnet is bigger and there's a near-empty #koha there already. |
| 14:12 |
|
toins: main argument against is that the koha project gets no control of #koha there, but then I'm not sure we have any control of this #koha (is any regular an oper here?) |
| 14:13 |
|
actually, they assign some other channels to projects, so I guess we might |
| 14:15 |
koha |
<_lloyd_ fn> hola |
| 14:15 |
slef |
(shhh, everyone be quiet and make him wonder whether it's broken) |
| 14:17 |
lloyd |
mmm - could do with making a little prettier |
| 14:26 |
[K] |
<_lloyd_FreeNode> ping |
| 14:26 |
lloyd |
pong |
| 14:27 |
|
mmmm... whatcha think? |
| 14:27 |
slef |
seems to work... time will tell, I guess |
| 14:27 |
lloyd |
its only configured for the two networks atm |
| 14:28 |
|
hang on, let me daemonize it |
| 14:29 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: rch n=rychigandalf.metavore.com |
| 14:30 |
|
<rchFreeNode> sushi? |
| 14:30 |
lloyd |
eew |
| 14:31 |
rch |
hmm. interesting |
| 14:31 |
lloyd |
I can keep it on this server for a while, should you wish to keep it i'll move it somewhere else |
| 14:32 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: toins n=toinspaulpoulain.pck.nerim.net |
| 14:32 |
slef |
lloyd: I didn't find a clear ban on relay bots by freenode, FWIW, but I didn't look that much. |
| 14:32 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: ow1n n=ow1n66.213.78.34 |
| 14:32 |
lloyd |
I had a look too.. couldnt find anything |
| 14:33 |
[K] |
* ow1nFreeNode taps the microphone |
| 14:33 |
slef |
I guess the akill will be a pretty clear signal if there is a ban ;-) |
| 14:33 |
owen |
Very confusing. Not a long-term solution I think. |
| 14:33 |
rch |
i'd have to say I'd prefer to have one #koha on a public server network. |
| 14:34 |
|
but this would be a nice transition |
| 14:34 |
lloyd |
owen - it's confusing because you're in two channels... you'd normally only be in 1 |
| 14:34 |
|
well why not have 1 main public network, and have the bot sitting on efnet/oftc incase anybody comes looking for us |
| 14:34 |
owen |
confusing because I see <[K]> speaking for anyone on Freenode, rather than those users speaking for themselves. |
| 14:34 |
slef |
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2[…]y_a_piece_of_net/ is a critique of their past (note: Rob Levin died a while ago) |
| 14:35 |
[K] |
<rchFreeNode> can you /who the relay bot? |
| 14:36 |
lloyd |
mmhmm |
| 14:36 |
[K] |
<rchFreeNode> to see who's on kohaKatipo? |
| 14:36 |
lloyd |
you can also PM between networks too |
| 14:36 |
|
no you cant do that |
| 14:37 |
[K] |
*** part FreeNode!#koha: ow1n n=ow1n66.213.78.34 |
| 14:37 |
slef |
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-475821.html is a gentoo-related thread |
| 14:37 |
[K] |
*** part FreeNode!#koha: rch n=rychigandalf.metavore.com |
| 14:39 |
|
*** join #kohaFreeNode: jaron n=jronalloin-220-116.dhcp-149-166.iupui.edu |
| 14:40 |
|
<jaronFreeNode> testing 1, 2, 3 |
| 14:40 |
jaron |
testing 4, 5, 6 |
| 14:41 |
[K] |
*** part FreeNode!#koha: jaron n=jronalloin-220-116.dhcp-149-166.iupui.edu |
| 14:46 |
lloyd |
that guy does sound like an ass |
| 14:49 |
slef |
he was, IMO, but I think the policies and systems he set up are still in place. |
| 14:59 |
lloyd |
guys... Its hard work running this relay bot.. I've had to employ myself to maintain it |
| 14:59 |
|
so... donations are welcome |
| 14:59 |
jaron |
lloyd++ |
| 14:59 |
lloyd |
:) |
| 15:00 |
jaron |
lloyd: now you just need to get the relay bot to ask for money every few minutes |
| 15:01 |
|
lloyd: "a suggested donation of $.10 per message" |
| 15:01 |
lloyd |
oooh yah... I could put another bot online to count the amount of messages |
| 15:04 |
jaron |
lloyd: soon you'll be able to quit your day job |
| 15:05 |
lloyd |
i've already handed my notice in! |
| 15:11 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: dbs n=danpdpc/supporter/active/denials |
| 15:11 |
|
<dbsFreeNode> relay bot... interesting |
| 15:14 |
dbs |
Are you thinking of having [K] announce something like "Hey, there's 40 of us over on irc.katipo.co.nz#koha!" when a freenode person joins the channel? |
| 15:16 |
lloyd |
nah my suggestion was when we move to freenode to have the bot in all other channels here/oftc/efnet.. with a topic saying the main channel is over on freenode but you can still talk to us here |
| 15:18 |
dbs |
lloyd: cool -- here's my $0.10 (CDN) |
| 15:19 |
lloyd |
excuse me.. its $0.30 now.. Two relays from here and 1 relay from freenode |
| 15:19 |
dewey |
lloyd: The server at bofh.engr.wisc.edu (port 666) appears to be down. |
| 15:19 |
lloyd |
dewey? |
| 15:19 |
dewey |
yes, lloyd? |
| 15:22 |
lloyd |
haha : http://www.infonet.ee/~sbernard/asr/rec-chem.html |
| 15:22 |
slef |
asr = alt.sysadmin.recovery? |
| 15:23 |
lloyd |
no idea, just found that |
| 15:24 |
jaron |
dewey: is the plate voltage too low on the demodulator tube? |
| 15:24 |
slef |
alt.sysadmin.recovery FAQ v0.49 |
| 15:24 |
|
I'm very old. My legs are grey and my eyes are bent. |
| 15:26 |
lloyd |
i've got to say, those chocolate covered coffee beans sound nice! |
| 15:32 |
|
Hey kados - got a moment to chat? |
| 15:32 |
kados |
lloyd: do now |
| 15:33 |
|
what's up? |
| 15:33 |
lloyd |
ILL feature of Koha.. does it exist yet? |
| 15:34 |
kados |
depends on what you define as ILL |
| 15:34 |
|
there are ILL features |
| 15:34 |
|
we have code to support the ISO ILL standard |
| 15:35 |
|
and some specs for NCIP (no code yet though) |
| 15:35 |
lloyd |
ability to send off articles (photocopys) or books to librarys, not just those that are sub branches |
| 15:35 |
kados |
well you can do it with institutional borrowers |
| 15:35 |
|
how do you get the request initiated is the question |
| 15:36 |
|
managing the request through the phases of fullfillment isn't included yet |
| 15:36 |
|
there are two ways to do it: ISO standard and NCIP |
| 15:36 |
|
we have some code to support the ISO standard, but it's never been integrated |
| 15:36 |
lloyd |
interesting |
| 15:36 |
kados |
if you don't need the request to be managed (ie, the current koha libraries just use paper) |
| 15:37 |
|
so it depends on what you define as ILL ;-) |
| 15:37 |
lloyd |
yeah it needs to be managed to because they are added to the stats for loaning |
| 15:37 |
kados |
well it would be added to the stats still |
| 15:37 |
|
as a checkout |
| 15:37 |
|
because you'd be issuing it to a institution |
| 15:38 |
|
just the request itself isn't managed |
| 15:38 |
|
so the borrowing institution needs to send an email, or a fax, or the library needs a web form or something to initiate the request |
| 15:38 |
lloyd |
yeah i've got ya |
| 15:38 |
kados |
cool |
| 15:38 |
lloyd |
so you've got the code (apart from the request) to do ILL? |
| 15:39 |
kados |
the code I have is from a system Yale developed about 4-5 years ago |
| 15:39 |
|
it usese the ISO ILL standard |
| 15:39 |
|
you need to find out what the resource sharing network you want to do ILL with uses |
| 15:40 |
|
to pick which ILL standard to go wtih (ILL vs NCIP at this point) |
| 15:40 |
|
make sense? |
| 15:40 |
lloyd |
jup |
| 15:40 |
|
reason I ask is ILL will be a requirement, the 28 librarys or so have sent me some document on how'd they'd like it to work |
| 15:41 |
kados |
ahh, fantastic |
| 15:41 |
|
will it be just between the 28 libraries? |
| 15:41 |
lloyd |
there document lists things like.. request date, date collected, date sent, date renewed, date due back |
| 15:41 |
kados |
or outside the network too? |
| 15:41 |
lloyd |
outside too |
| 15:41 |
kados |
I'd suggest NCIP |
| 15:41 |
|
it's much newer |
| 15:42 |
|
and more complete |
| 15:42 |
lloyd |
hold on, i'll send you the document over |
| 15:42 |
|
sent |
| 15:43 |
kados |
ahh |
| 15:43 |
|
it's Document Delivery + ILL |
| 15:43 |
|
very cool lloyd |
| 15:44 |
lloyd |
haha... yeah the colour scheme is nothing to do with me :p |
| 15:45 |
slef |
lloyd: that reminds me. Do you have corporate standards for library management systems? I couldn't see anything, but policies are not as well-indexed as drugs. |
| 15:45 |
lloyd |
no... well sorta |
| 15:46 |
|
they're agreed upon per readon |
| 15:46 |
|
check out www.eclaksa.eoe.nhs.uk |
| 15:46 |
slef |
interesting... thanks |
| 15:47 |
lloyd |
some hospitals here run access :) |
| 15:47 |
|
some are still using paper |
| 18:25 |
kados |
foxnorth: how's it going? |
| 18:25 |
foxnorth |
hey kados-- did you get my latest email? does it make sense to you? |
| 18:25 |
kados |
oops, missed it |
| 18:25 |
|
looking now |
| 18:26 |
|
no_popups++ |
| 18:26 |
foxnorth |
great-- just want to make sure we're on the same page now that i understand koha's side of things |
| 18:26 |
|
right |
| 18:26 |
kados |
I'm thinking more like a livesearch or something |
| 18:26 |
|
labs.liblime.com has an example |
| 18:26 |
foxnorth |
ok lemme check that out |
| 18:26 |
kados |
the liblime home page search too |
| 18:26 |
|
(takes a sec to load though) |
| 18:27 |
|
re: #2 |
| 18:27 |
foxnorth |
so basically instead of a dropdown menu, do an autocomplete/livesearch to fill in permissible values for fixed fields? sounds good to me |
| 18:27 |
kados |
yea |
| 18:27 |
foxnorth |
gotcha. |
| 18:27 |
kados |
ok, #2 |
| 18:28 |
|
this gets down to the marc standard |
| 18:28 |
foxnorth |
right...the difficult part! |
| 18:28 |
kados |
the problem is, based on the material type |
| 18:28 |
|
the field values change |
| 18:28 |
|
so there isn't just one set of 008 values |
| 18:28 |
|
make sense? |
| 18:28 |
foxnorth |
right both play a role and make things tricky... |
| 18:28 |
kados |
yea |
| 18:28 |
|
I think we need to take the approach EG took |
| 18:29 |
foxnorth |
right-- not sure if this xml based approach is a good way |
| 18:29 |
kados |
yea |
| 18:29 |
|
maybe better to just detect the material type from the leader |
| 18:29 |
|
and populate fixed fields from there |
| 18:29 |
foxnorth |
yeah that's what i would say. |
| 18:29 |
kados |
using javascript |
| 18:30 |
foxnorth |
hhm. |
| 18:30 |
kados |
or whatever you think is best |
| 18:30 |
|
honestly, you're probably the best to decide on this |
| 18:31 |
|
as far as _how_ to implement it I mean |
| 18:33 |
|
foxnorth: and you can just commit to the project I think |
| 18:33 |
|
foxnorth: at this point it's just you, toins and I working on it |
| 18:33 |
foxnorth |
right ok |
| 18:34 |
kados |
easier to just run svn update than muddle around with patches and moving files, etc :-) |
| 18:34 |
|
version_control++ |
| 18:34 |
foxnorth |
yeah i agree-- but i wasn't sure this is in a state decent enough to commit! :) |
| 18:34 |
|
yet... |
| 18:35 |
kados |
I wouldn't worry about that, esp since we're pre-release |
| 18:35 |
foxnorth |
ok, good to know... |
| 18:36 |
kados |
eventually we can branch when working on ne features and then merge when they are stable |
| 18:37 |
foxnorth |
lemme just run and look at the evergreen javascript again for a sec... |
| 18:48 |
kados |
hi johnb |
| 18:51 |
foxnorth |
kados: when you said before you thought it would be good to use the EG approach for opencataloger fixed field editing, which part of that approach are you thinking of? |
| 18:51 |
|
Is it the use, for e.g., of fixed_fields.js file (http://open-ils.org/cgi-bin/vi[…].2.2&view=markup) you're thinking of? |
| 18:51 |
kados |
mainly the display of them |
| 18:51 |
|
a drop-down value list goes beyond what EG has |
| 18:51 |
|
afaik |
| 18:52 |
foxnorth |
right, that's what i thought. |
| 18:52 |
|
OK, good. |
| 18:52 |
kados |
but a drop-down would be really cool |
| 18:52 |
foxnorth |
definately need dropdown/ autocomplete |
| 18:52 |
kados |
yea |
| 18:52 |
foxnorth |
ok, so let me commit my current fixed field version to play with |
| 18:53 |
|
and basically you think the xml based descriptive approach for fixed field definitions will work out ok? going along with the current use of unimarc.xml? |
| 18:56 |
kados |
yea |
| 18:56 |
foxnorth |
committed... |
| 18:56 |
kados |
foxnorth++ |
| 18:58 |
foxnorth |
kados: ok, so i think next steps are to generalize my fixed field editor grid functions and modify the marc structure xml files to define what's a fixed field, rather than pick individual elements from the structural file. |
| 18:58 |
kados |
I wonder ... |
| 18:58 |
foxnorth |
? |
| 18:59 |
kados |
so how does this work with the getstructurefrom koha |
| 18:59 |
foxnorth |
right, that's where i would need to modify that script to return permissible fixed field values. |
| 18:59 |
|
possibly using already existing plugins?? |
| 18:59 |
kados |
wouldn't need to |
| 18:59 |
|
so I updated |
| 19:00 |
|
but don't see the fixed field parts |
| 19:00 |
|
ahh, now I do |
| 19:00 |
|
not for a new record though |
| 19:00 |
|
just for an existing one |
| 19:00 |
foxnorth |
right, you would need to modify opencataloger.xml: structure=marc21... |
| 19:00 |
|
brb |
| 19:01 |
kados |
format you mean? |
| 19:03 |
|
foxnorth: I now have an unhappy opencat :-) |
| 19:03 |
|
foxnorth: display's kinda mangled for records and the fixed fields aren't displaying properly |
| 19:08 |
|
huh |
| 19:08 |
|
for some results it works fine |
| 19:08 |
|
foxnorth: those drop downs own! |
| 19:09 |
|
foxnorth: don't seem to dynamically update the field in the record though |
| 19:09 |
|
hmmm |
| 19:11 |
foxnorth |
ok i'm back-- |
| 19:12 |
|
um, right, in conf like this: |
| 19:12 |
|
<structure value="/cgi-bin/opencataloger/getStructureMarc21.pl" |
| 19:12 |
|
format="marc21" |
| 19:12 |
|
koha="true" |
| 19:12 |
|
encoding="UTF-8" |
| 19:12 |
|
charsubfield="‡" |
| 19:12 |
|
/> |
| 19:12 |
kados |
yep, except I have koha="false" |
| 19:12 |
foxnorth |
ah right, better leave that false for right now |
| 19:12 |
|
that's right, it's not dynamically updating field in record right now, only on saving |
| 19:13 |
|
for some results it's mangled? |
| 19:13 |
|
hhm, havne't had that |
| 19:13 |
|
can you tell me which record you searched for on opencat.liblime adn i can check it out? |
| 19:45 |
tnb |
owen: you around? |
| 19:45 |
owen |
yes |
| 19:46 |
tnb |
do you have time to hop on gmail chat? |
| 19:46 |
owen |
Sure |
| 19:46 |
tnb |
i wanted to pick your brain about something |
| 20:00 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: toins_ n=toinspaulpoulain.pck.nerim.net |
| 20:37 |
|
*** join #kohaFreeNode: toins_ n=toinspaulpoulain.pck.nerim.net |
| 23:16 |
kados |
thd: hi |
| 23:16 |
dewey |
niihau, kados |
| 23:16 |
thd |
hello kados |
| 23:28 |
|
I have just separated over 500 lines of function code from 20,000 lines of program code and now I will add the logic which goes with them. |
| 23:28 |
kados |
thd++ |
| 23:29 |
thd |
kados: I assume that you do not want to hunt through 20.000 lines of unfamiliar PHP code yourself :) |
| 23:29 |
kados |
hehe |
| 23:29 |
|
thd++ |
| 23:45 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: denials n=danpdpc/supporter/active/denials |
| 23:47 |
kados |
hi denials |
| 23:48 |
|
thd: how's the logic coming? |
| 23:49 |
thd |
I have saved a nice short file now I just need to attach it to my email |
| 23:49 |
kados |
w00t |
| 23:52 |
[K] |
<denialsFreeNode> hola kados |
| 23:57 |
|
*** join #kohaFreeNode: kados n=jmfmerry.metavore.com |
| 23:57 |
|
<kadosFreeNode> interesting |
| 23:58 |
|
*** part FreeNode!#koha: kados n=jmfmerry.metavore.com |
| 23:58 |
kados |
guess that works well enough |
| 23:58 |
|
lloyd++ |
| 00:02 |
thd |
s/fore/for/ |
| 00:04 |
|
kados: how fast do you write X00 lines of code? |
| 00:05 |
kados |
thd: slowly |
| 00:06 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: toins_ n=toinspaulpoulain.pck.nerim.net |
| 00:11 |
thd |
kados: check your mail. The first message is missing the attachment |
| 00:12 |
kados |
looking now |
| 00:14 |
|
thd: lets go through this function by function |
| 00:14 |
|
I'll keep notes |
| 00:14 |
|
:-) |
| 00:14 |
|
thd: f000MARC |
| 00:14 |
|
obviously for the leader |
| 00:14 |
|
but what is it trying to do? |
| 00:14 |
thd |
kados: why not start with the program logic below? |
| 00:15 |
kados |
ok |
| 00:15 |
thd |
past all the functions |
| 00:16 |
kados |
ok, so we detect recFormat, recType, mediaType |
| 00:16 |
thd |
kados: no |
| 00:17 |
|
kados: we only no these values in advance: $targetURL, $targetAuth, $targetSyntax, $targetEncoding, $targetSemantics, $targetName |
| 00:18 |
|
kados: just general values about the target nothing specific about the record yet |
| 00:18 |
kados |
right |
| 00:18 |
|
I get that |
| 00:18 |
|
so this code will tell you what you have |
| 00:19 |
|
based on the record content |
| 00:19 |
thd |
kados: we know that it is not SUTRS and therefore must be some form of MARC since I have no provision for other types so far |
| 00:21 |
kados |
preg_match is missing |
| 00:21 |
thd |
kados: are you trying to execute this code? :) |
| 00:21 |
kados |
no |
| 00:21 |
|
just noticed that |
| 00:22 |
thd |
noticed it where? |
| 00:22 |
kados |
preg_match is called quite a lot |
| 00:22 |
|
but there's no function preg_match |
| 00:22 |
thd |
kados: that is a built in function in PHP |
| 00:22 |
kados |
ahh |
| 00:22 |
thd |
it is a perl regular expression match |
| 00:23 |
kados |
gotcha |
| 00:24 |
|
so this will tell us the format, record type and media type |
| 00:24 |
thd |
kados: $rec = yaz_record($id[$i],$p,"string"); obtains a record formatted with line breaks, not a raw record |
| 00:24 |
kados |
of an existing record |
| 00:24 |
|
thd: right, gathered that |
| 00:24 |
thd |
and more |
| 00:24 |
kados |
more? |
| 00:25 |
|
what else? |
| 00:25 |
thd |
kados: well maybe I did not supply more |
| 00:26 |
|
kados: you do not need the endless encoding functions and logic because you already have everything in UTF-8 for the editor |
| 00:26 |
kados |
thd: what I'd like to see, is a walk through of the order of operations to determine valid values for a MARC record |
| 00:26 |
thd |
so back to the logic |
| 00:26 |
kados |
ie, step 1: pick LEADER/06 and LEADER/07 |
| 00:27 |
|
step 2: pick 008 |
| 00:27 |
|
then, that results in a template with all the appropriate fields defined |
| 00:28 |
|
and based on the initial choices, the template is different |
| 00:28 |
|
thd: is that how you envision it ? |
| 00:28 |
thd |
kados: there is some junk in the functions to find the leader originally because PHP/YAZ reports parser errors as part of the formatted record before the leader |
| 00:28 |
|
kados: yes |
| 00:30 |
|
except that if you have UNIMARC then you have 100 instead of 008 |
| 00:30 |
kados |
lets forget about unimarc for a second |
| 00:30 |
thd |
:( |
| 00:30 |
kados |
we'll come back to it |
| 00:31 |
thd |
you have functions for IBERMARC, etc. as well |
| 00:31 |
kados |
MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs is what I'd like to focus on for a sec |
| 00:32 |
thd |
OK :) |
| 00:32 |
kados |
ok, so we have to first pick the marc flavor, MARC21 |
| 00:32 |
|
that does nothing directly to the record, but pick a template |
| 00:33 |
|
then we pick bibliographic, and that also does nothing to the record but pick a template, there's no marker in the record in marc21 specifying bibliographic as opposed to authority or holdings, right? |
| 00:35 |
thd |
kados: more than flavour |
| 00:36 |
kados |
? |
| 00:38 |
thd |
kados: you need $targetSyntax and $targetSemantics: tow values which are not always the same but maybe only $targetSemantics is used in this part of the code |
| 00:38 |
|
s/tow/two/ |
| 00:39 |
|
read marcFlavour = $targetSemantics if that is enough here |
| 00:39 |
kados |
thd: sure |
| 00:39 |
|
thd: I've shifted a bit, not talking directly about your code |
| 00:40 |
|
thd: I'm just trying to identify the steps to arriving at a template for a MARC record |
| 00:40 |
|
thd: first is pick a standard: MARC21, then the type of MARC21 record it is, Bibliographic (as opposed to Authority, Holdings, etc.) |
| 00:41 |
|
but those choices aren't reflected in the data of the record |
| 00:41 |
|
unlike some choices, like encoding, which is in LEADER//09 |
| 00:41 |
|
am I correct? |
| 00:41 |
thd |
kados: right, just as long as you remember that some libraries will need separate values for the syntax and semantics variables even if they are not your customers yet |
| 00:42 |
kados |
what's the difference between syntax and semantics in MARC? |
| 00:43 |
thd |
kados: yes exactly because the meaning of the leader changes by the value of $recFormat |
| 00:44 |
|
kados: syntax is the structure of the record (not a good explanation). semantics is what the fields mean |
| 00:45 |
kados |
syntax = MARC21, semantics = Bibliographic ? |
| 00:46 |
|
problem is, semantics are not only set at that level, but also further defined by at least material type and maybe fixed fields int he 008 IIRC |
| 00:46 |
|
that's what i'm really after here anyway, is the semantics |
| 00:46 |
thd |
kados: no, syntax = 'MARC21' and semantics = 'MARC21' most of the time |
| 00:47 |
|
kados: yes, I think for this part of the code you do not have to worry about syntax |
| 00:49 |
|
kados: $recFormat = 'bibliographic' etc. not $targetSemantics as I defined the variables in this code |
| 00:50 |
|
kados: I tried to be very careful about nomenclature because the code would otherwise be unreadable |
| 00:50 |
kados |
right |
| 00:50 |
|
ok |
| 00:51 |
|
so next we choose material type and bibliographic level |
| 00:51 |
thd |
kados: so the various MARC standards call Bibligraphic the Bibliographic Format and Authorities the Authorities Format |
| 00:51 |
kados |
since we are restricting ourselves to Monographic records (single part) |
| 00:52 |
thd |
kados: yes |
| 00:52 |
kados |
that means that LEADER07 is now 'a' and LEADER/06 can be one of several values |
| 00:52 |
|
what changes in the semantics of the record as we shift from type to type in the LEADER/06? |
| 00:53 |
thd |
? |
| 00:53 |
kados |
maybe the wrong question |
| 00:53 |
thd |
do you mean what variable changes? |
| 00:53 |
kados |
no |
| 00:54 |
|
if we have type 'a', we have one template, if we have type 'l' we have another, right? |
| 00:54 |
|
so what differences are there in the record based on those choices? |
| 00:54 |
thd |
do you mean how do I know what MARC 21 008 value to assign? |
| 00:54 |
kados |
yes, but not just 008 |
| 00:54 |
|
what other fields are affected by that choice? |
| 00:55 |
thd |
007 but I did not get quite that far |
| 00:55 |
kados |
hehe |
| 00:57 |
thd |
do you see the URL |
| 00:58 |
kados |
yes |
| 00:58 |
thd |
the roadmap does have a couple of mistakes I never bothered to fix but probably need to by this weekend |
| 00:58 |
kados |
I love the header :-) |
| 00:59 |
thd |
do you mean the image? |
| 00:59 |
kados |
no, the text at the very top :-) |
| 01:00 |
|
so you group bibliographic and holdings together? |
| 01:00 |
thd |
the navigation links are part of my special python scripts for Zope |
| 01:00 |
kados |
ok, so ... |
| 01:00 |
thd |
do you mean in the roadmap or the code? |
| 01:00 |
kados |
bibliographic and holdings are together? |
| 01:01 |
thd |
kados: well they share a very large set of common semantics unlike other record formats |
| 01:01 |
kados |
right, but are still different in important ways, no? |
| 01:02 |
|
this roadmap is for detection |
| 01:02 |
|
of various characteristics of a record |
| 01:02 |
|
what we need is the exact opposite |
| 01:03 |
thd |
kados: yes but not important enough to make a great difference for how my code reported field labels etc. at the level of detail which it returned values |
| 01:03 |
|
:) |
| 01:03 |
kados |
we need to be able to 'browse' if you will through the series of questions to arrive at a MARC template |
| 01:04 |
|
with the end result being a template/framework that defines authorized values where available in the standard employed |
| 01:04 |
|
thd: is that what you envision? |
| 01:05 |
thd |
yes |
| 01:05 |
kados |
ok, so do we have the steps defined correctly so far? |
| 01:06 |
|
we have selected LEADER/07 |
| 01:06 |
|
now, we select LEADER/06 |
| 01:06 |
|
what next? |
| 01:07 |
|
(say we pick 'a' for LEADER/06) |
| 01:08 |
|
now we go to the 008, right? |
| 01:08 |
thd |
yes, $mediaType at the most primitive level |
| 01:09 |
kados |
and the valid values for 008 and the meaning of those values changes depending on the choice for LEADER/06, right? |
| 01:10 |
thd |
yes, if only monographs are considered |
| 01:11 |
kados |
ok, so we need some code that explains how the options change depending on LEADER/06 |
| 01:11 |
|
now |
| 01:11 |
thd |
explains? |
| 01:12 |
kados |
defines |
| 01:12 |
|
if we fill out 008, does that change the valid values or meaning of those values for any other fields? |
| 01:13 |
thd |
008 can change 007 |
| 01:13 |
kados |
interesting |
| 01:13 |
|
example? |
| 01:13 |
dewey |
i heard example was 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna |
| 01:13 |
thd |
maybe |
| 01:15 |
|
yes |
| 01:17 |
kados |
thd: you have found an example? |
| 01:18 |
thd |
if you have cartographic material 008 maps, then 008 /25 may be d for globe which will have a different meaning for 007 from other values of 008 /25 |
| 01:19 |
kados |
I think that is the only case though |
| 01:19 |
|
http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0057.htm |
| 01:19 |
|
For the 007 fields, the values for each data element are not listed, except for 007/00 (Category of material). In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record. |
| 01:21 |
|
I assume this is applies in the case of a mixed materials record? |
| 01:21 |
|
thd: it's a difference of omission |
| 01:22 |
|
thd: I don't see any differences in the meaning of the values, other than for globe, the last few do'nt apply |
| 01:22 |
|
thd: am I right? |
| 01:22 |
thd |
what about remote sensing image? |
| 01:22 |
kados |
hmmm |
| 01:23 |
thd |
I assume that starts as cartographic material |
| 01:23 |
kados |
I think the 007 is independent |
| 01:23 |
|
it says clearly: In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record. |
| 01:24 |
|
so we can put a 007 for globes on a BK record |
| 01:24 |
|
I need to adjust our search indexes based on this new info :-) |
| 01:25 |
|
Field 007 is repeatable to allow for coding different physical formats covered by the same cataloging record. For example, a record which describes a videocassette available in Beta and VHS formats will have two separate 007 fields. |
| 01:26 |
thd |
nevermind 007/00 defines the semantics for 007 |
| 01:26 |
kados |
yep |
| 01:26 |
|
ok, so any other fields we need to consider, or does the buck stop with 008? |
| 01:26 |
thd |
I have not looked at 007 for a few months :) |
| 01:27 |
kados |
me either :-) |
| 01:27 |
|
I like 007 though |
| 01:27 |
|
it's one of my favorites |
| 01:27 |
thd |
245 $h |
| 01:27 |
kados |
because it's consistant |
| 01:28 |
|
$h is not an authorized value according to the specification though |
| 01:28 |
|
it's human editable, right? |
| 01:29 |
|
yep |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [art original] ‡h [microscope slides] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [art reproduction] ‡h [model] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [chart] ‡h [motion picture] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [diorama] ‡h [picture] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [electronic resource] ‡h [realia] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [filmstrip] ‡h [slide] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [flash card] ‡h [sound recording] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [game] ‡h [technical drawing] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [graphic] * ‡h [toy] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [kit] ‡h [transparency] |
| 01:29 |
|
‡h [microform] ‡h [videorecording] |
| 01:29 |
|
wow, there's a Library of Congress Rule Interpretations |
| 01:29 |
thd |
kados: yes but my investigations have shown that 245 $h is one of the few places which record information accurately in some national libraries and it is an authorised value just not a coded one |
| 01:30 |
kados |
hmmm |
| 01:30 |
|
http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/LCRI0000.htm |
| 01:31 |
|
http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/LCRI0057.htm |
| 01:31 |
|
General Material Designation |
| 01:31 |
thd |
however, authorised values very from library to library and no value should be used for books |
| 01:31 |
kados |
ok, but we will stick to the standard here |
| 01:32 |
|
OCLC seems to have more defined than itsmarc |
| 01:32 |
|
I assume OCLC is up to date |
| 01:32 |
|
so we'll use their definition list |
| 01:32 |
thd |
yes |
| 01:32 |
kados |
any other fields to consider? |
| 01:32 |
thd |
OCLC takes 245 $h seriously |
| 01:33 |
kados |
can we map the values in 245 $h to 008? |
| 01:33 |
|
for instance, what is [art original] ? |
| 01:33 |
|
in 008? |
| 01:34 |
thd |
yes and to the leader as well because of the libraries which have false information in the leader |
| 01:34 |
kados |
? |
| 01:35 |
|
what value in 008 results in [art original] ? |
| 01:35 |
thd |
national libraries defining videorecordings as books in the leader for example |
| 01:35 |
|
art original is visual material in 008 |
| 01:36 |
kados |
how is that different than [art reproduction] ? |
| 01:36 |
|
in the 008? |
| 01:36 |
|
or do we say: |
| 01:36 |
|
if (visual material) { |
| 01:36 |
|
valid values for 245 $h are: [art reproduction] or [art original] |
| 01:36 |
|
? |
| 01:37 |
thd |
exactly |
| 01:37 |
kados |
ok, lets map these quickly |
| 01:38 |
thd |
maybe the logic should run in two directions though because of the problem for bad values in the records |
| 01:38 |
kados |
we can add that later |
| 01:38 |
|
right now, we're just starting from scratch with a new record |
| 01:39 |
thd |
so then it better to try to direct sequential editing from the beginning of the record to some degree |
| 01:40 |
kados |
so to arrive at the proper values for 245$h |
| 01:40 |
|
we check the material type in LEADER/06 |
| 01:40 |
|
then positions 18-34 in 008 |
| 01:40 |
|
right? |
| 01:41 |
thd |
hmmm yes |
| 01:41 |
kados |
ok, lets run some examples |
| 01:41 |
|
say we have material type 'a' |
| 01:42 |
thd |
I was just thinking about electronic resources |
| 01:42 |
kados |
for material type 'a', what values in the 008 will determine the possible values fo 245 $h? |
| 01:44 |
thd |
008 /23 is one |
| 01:45 |
kados |
23 is Form of item |
| 01:45 |
|
so if it is 's' then it's [electronic resource] |
| 01:47 |
thd |
kados: actually anything can be an electronic resource in 245 $h |
| 01:47 |
kados |
? |
| 01:47 |
|
what order should we check the 008 fields? |
| 01:47 |
|
245 $h isn't repeatable |
| 01:47 |
|
so it can only be one format |
| 01:48 |
|
what I mean is |
| 01:48 |
|
it can only be one GMD |
| 01:48 |
|
General Material Designation |
| 01:48 |
thd |
true |
| 01:49 |
|
first we have determine what type of material 008 designates |
| 01:49 |
|
then we check the appropriate position in 008 for that type of material |
| 01:50 |
kados |
yes, so first we check the leader |
| 01:50 |
thd |
yes |
| 01:50 |
kados |
so lets start with type 'a' |
| 01:50 |
|
now we check 008/23 |
| 01:50 |
thd |
as long as we only have a monograph |
| 01:52 |
kados |
we do |
| 01:52 |
|
:-) |
| 01:52 |
|
right now we have a MARC21 Bibliographic Monograph BK (LEADER/06 == 'a') |
| 01:52 |
|
if ($materialType = 'BKS') { |
| 01:52 |
|
if ($ff_008.substr(23,1) == 's') { |
| 01:52 |
|
$gmd = '[electronic resource]'; |
| 01:52 |
|
} |
| 01:53 |
|
so what other values for 008/23 can we map to 245$h? |
| 01:54 |
|
008/23 == 'a' means [microform] |
| 01:55 |
thd |
what is the URL for the OCLC list for 245 $h? |
| 01:55 |
kados |
http://www.oclc.org/bibformats[…]ging/default.shtm |
| 01:55 |
|
GMDs and Library of Congress Rule Interpretations |
| 01:58 |
|
'b' is microfiche |
| 01:59 |
|
thos are the only three from 008/23 for LEADER/06 == 'a' |
| 02:02 |
|
I have concluded that for LEADER/06 == 'a', the only detection we can do is if 008/23 is 's', 'a', or 'b' |
| 02:02 |
|
if it's not one of those three, I think we have to display all GMDs as an option |
| 02:04 |
thd |
yes |
| 02:08 |
|
the OCLC list looks a little small compared to the one I have in the 1978 version of AACR2 |
| 02:12 |
|
kados: I think the OCLC list of GMDs is a subset for applying special rules |
| 02:13 |
|
kados: where is your subscription to Cataloger's Desktop? |
| 02:15 |
kados |
hehe |
| 02:15 |
|
don't have one |
| 02:20 |
|
thd: |
| 02:20 |
|
can we eliminate any of the 245$h options based on soley the LEADER/06? |
| 02:21 |
|
say, for example that LEADER/06 is 'a', which 245$h options remain out of the following: |
| 02:21 |
|
[art original]|[microscope slides]|[art reproduction]|[model]|[chart]|[motion picture]|[diorama]|[picture]|[electronic resource]|[realia]|[filmstrip]|[slide]|[flash card]|[sound recording]|[game]|[technical drawing]|[graphic]|[toy]|[kit]|[transparency]|[microform]|[videorecording] |
| 02:22 |
thd |
there should be more from which to start |
| 02:23 |
kados |
really? |
| 02:23 |
|
that's what OCLC uses |
| 02:23 |
|
we can add more later if we need to |
| 02:23 |
|
thd: lets restrict ourselves to just OCLC conventions |
| 02:23 |
thd |
what is the Cataloger's Reference shelf URL where you found a list of GMDs? |
| 02:24 |
kados |
thd: then, we can add more later |
| 02:24 |
|
thd: for the sake of time, lets just use OCLC for now |
| 02:24 |
thd |
kados: those are not the OCLC conventions but only a subset |
| 02:24 |
kados |
we can cross reference after the logic is in place |
| 02:24 |
thd |
OK |
| 02:25 |
kados |
what additional GMDs exist ? |
| 02:25 |
thd |
map and globe for example in the US |
| 02:26 |
kados |
hmmm |
| 02:26 |
|
MARC is hard :-) |
| 02:26 |
thd |
they were both cartographic material in the UK |
| 02:27 |
|
current UK standards may have adopted US standards for GMDs |
| 02:27 |
kados |
Library of Congress Rule Interpretations I think is what we need to reference |
| 02:27 |
|
to find out the GMDs |
| 02:27 |
|
itsmarc doesn't have as many as OCLC lists, so I assume they are working from an earlier version |
| 02:28 |
thd |
kados: They are in Cataloger's Desktop subscription along with the current edition of AACR2 |
| 02:28 |
kados |
which neither of us have :( |
| 02:29 |
thd |
\kados: that list only refers to how to apply a particular rule and only lists the subset GMDs which apply to that rule |
| 02:31 |
|
I do have the 1978 list and I am confident that maps and globes etc. did not fall into the void after being outlawed |
| 02:31 |
kados |
thd: ahh, my latest interpretation of the OCLC page is that it lists all mandatory GMDs |
| 02:32 |
|
"If one of the following GMDs is applicable, it is mandatory " |
| 02:32 |
thd |
exactly, there are more which are optional |
| 02:33 |
kados |
ok, lets just do mandatory for now |
| 02:33 |
|
man, this is really gonna take a long time |
| 02:34 |
|
especially when we circle back and remove all our contraints |
| 02:34 |
thd |
:) |
| 02:34 |
kados |
MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory only |
| 02:35 |
thd |
kados: a subscription to Cataloger's Desktop is indispensable for doing this sort of thing well |
| 02:36 |
kados |
yea |
| 02:36 |
|
ok, so we've done BKS |
| 02:36 |
|
I am inclined to pause the exercise and assume we can find the relevant values for 245 $h for the rest of the material types |
| 02:37 |
|
what other fields do we need to consider if any? |
| 02:38 |
thd |
next: computer files will always be electronic resources maybe |
| 02:38 |
|
electronic resources are tricky |
| 02:39 |
kados |
yea |
| 02:40 |
|
a computer file could be a game or a graphic, or a picture or a slide or a sound recording |
| 02:40 |
thd |
then we have |
| 02:41 |
|
008/25 for maps |
| 02:41 |
kados |
whoever defined these catetories is a moron |
| 02:41 |
|
really narrow view of the world |
| 02:42 |
thd |
that does not disturb me but the unevenness of 40 years worth of committee work does |
| 02:43 |
kados |
lets move on from 245 $h, and assume we can parse through the documentation and find what we need for that based on the leader, 008, and (in the case of globes) 040 |
| 02:43 |
|
what other fields do we need to consider? |
| 02:43 |
|
006 perhaps? |
| 02:43 |
thd |
040? |
| 02:44 |
kados |
Only use the âgraphicâ? GMD when applying the âGraphic Materialsâ? descriptive conventions. Note that these conventions are being applied with the value âgihcâ? in subfield â¡e of field 040. |
| 02:44 |
|
s/globes/graphic/ |
| 02:45 |
thd |
one point is that 245 $h should have a 'no value' unused option by default |
| 02:45 |
kados |
ok |
| 02:46 |
|
noted |
| 02:46 |
|
006 then? |
| 02:49 |
thd |
006 is almost identical to 008 in function except that it is repeatable for additional material which may be part of the bibliographic item such as a CD in the back of a book, etc. |
| 02:50 |
kados |
does it only apply with mixed materials? |
| 02:51 |
thd |
not the special sense of mixed materials from 006 as far as I know |
| 02:57 |
|
the definition that you suggested corresponds to how mixed materials is used in AACR2 - 1978. However, I have found 006 used in the real world when 000/06 was not mixed materials |
| 03:01 |
|
you can see from the code which I sent you where I include MARC 008 equivalents to UNIMARC 100 values that UNIMARC defines mixed materials as multimedia |
| 03:02 |
kados |
lets avoid UNIMARC for now |
| 03:02 |
thd |
just trying to clarify the MARC 21 meaning |
| 03:04 |
|
in actual practise use of 006 is rare. but cataloguers do not have nice plugins to help them fill the coded values |
| 03:06 |
|
but in any case 006 cannot be preconstrained by an earlier value |
| 03:07 |
kados |
except for 008? |
| 03:07 |
|
and the leader |
| 03:07 |
dewey |
rumour has it the leader is very necessary |
| 03:07 |
kados |
right? |
| 03:08 |
thd |
006/00 determines the meaning of the other positions |
| 03:09 |
|
similar to 007/00. If only that had been done for 008 then 008 would be easier |
| 03:11 |
|
starting text for 300 can be filled from 008 |
| 03:11 |
kados |
example? |
| 03:11 |
dewey |
well, example is 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna |
| 03:13 |
thd |
I have examples in the hints on cataloguing for the last job which I did for you |
| 03:17 |
kados |
thd: http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=asmp |
| 03:19 |
|
thd: when you say 'starting text for 300, do you mean 'part of the text for 300? |
| 03:19 |
|
it's not always going to be starting, in the case of 6 CDs for example, the CDs is the part I assume that could be derived |
| 03:20 |
thd |
I think I included special hints in the librarian label fo 300 $a for various types of records which were created for ASMP |
| 03:22 |
kados |
I think the 300 field is impossible to index anyway |
| 03:22 |
thd |
exactly so 000/06 == 'a' for monographs would suggest 300 $a p. $c cm. |
| 03:23 |
kados |
so in this case, you would want a popup |
| 03:23 |
|
to ask the number of pages and cm. of the book |
| 03:23 |
|
or ... |
| 03:23 |
thd |
it has to be free form |
| 03:23 |
kados |
highlight the 300 field to indicate it needs to be filled out |
| 03:24 |
thd |
having even the $a p. $c cm. there is a big time saver if you have many records to do |
| 03:26 |
kados |
function field_300_partial_values { |
| 03:26 |
|
if ($materialType == 'BKS') { |
| 03:26 |
|
field_300a = 'p.'; |
| 03:26 |
|
field_300c - 'cm.'; |
| 03:26 |
|
} |
| 03:26 |
|
} |
| 03:26 |
thd |
actually I left out the semicolon: 300 $a p.;$c cm. |
| 03:30 |
kados |
function field_300_partial_values { |
| 03:30 |
|
if ($materialType == 'BKS') { |
| 03:30 |
|
$field_300a = '?p.;'; |
| 03:30 |
|
$field_300c = '?cm.'; |
| 03:30 |
|
} |
| 03:30 |
|
return |
| 03:30 |
|
} |
| 03:31 |
|
thd: ok, what else? |
| 03:31 |
|
thd: I am getting tired, I should probably get home |
| 03:31 |
thd |
the user must be able to add arbitrary text such as 300 $avi, 270p., bibliography p. 271-174;$c21 cm. |
| 03:31 |
kados |
and go to bed |
| 03:32 |
|
yes, that's what the ? is for |
| 03:33 |
thd |
I mean even at the end of the field or erasing the p. and entering 2 v. |
| 03:34 |
|
where multiple volumes do not have their separate pagination recorded in a single record |
| 03:35 |
kados |
yep |
| 03:35 |
|
the help section should have information for the user on what available values are |
| 03:35 |
|
with examples perhaps |
| 03:36 |
|
ok, I must walk home now |
| 03:36 |
|
it's getting late |
| 03:37 |
|
we have identified: |
| 03:37 |
|
LEADER/06/ and 07 |
| 03:37 |
|
008 |
| 03:37 |
|
245 $h |
| 03:38 |
|
and 300 |
| 03:38 |
thd |
the default for CDs in 300 should be $a1 CD;$cI forgot the height cm. determined from 007 |
| 03:40 |
kados |
all the rest of the fields are independent |
| 03:40 |
thd |
there is some for 300 in whatever we used to call the ASMP frameworks |
| 03:40 |
|
other fields are also dependent |
| 03:41 |
kados |
which ones? |
| 03:41 |
|
I think 300 is a bad example |
| 03:41 |
|
for this exercise |
| 03:41 |
|
because you can only derive partial values |
| 03:41 |
|
I think we should not handle partial values with this exercise |
| 03:41 |
|
lets restrict our study to: |
| 03:41 |
thd |
kados: you would not think so if you had to create many original records |
| 03:42 |
kados |
MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory Fields where full values can be derived |
| 03:42 |
|
from previous values |
| 03:42 |
|
s/from previous values/from values in previous fields/ |
| 03:42 |
thd |
300 is required except for electronic resources and other record editors already do just what I described |
| 03:43 |
kados |
yes, I know |
| 03:43 |
|
we will expand our features |
| 03:43 |
|
are there no further fields where full values can be derived? |
| 03:45 |
thd |
there is the issue of adding some standard fields and subfields used by various record types |
| 03:45 |
kados |
yes |
| 03:46 |
|
should that be done using material type? |
| 03:46 |
|
select material type -> standard fields appear in the record ? |
| 03:46 |
thd |
and also more fileds/subfields or fewer depending upon record level |
| 03:46 |
kados |
ahh, right |
| 03:47 |
|
thd: would we use the asmp frameworks as a starting point? |
| 03:48 |
thd |
yes, those were mostly minimal level with a few good to have fields |
| 03:48 |
kados |
if we restrict ourselves to type='a' and level='minimal', what fields/subfields should be 'standard'? |
| 03:49 |
thd |
most of the unusual aspects were the friendly labels for the librarian instead of the standard labels |
| 03:49 |
kados |
right |
| 03:49 |
|
thd: would it take long to define standard fields/subfields for type 'a' and level 'minimal'? |
| 03:49 |
|
or should I go to bed? |
| 03:50 |
|
:-) |
| 03:50 |
thd |
001 |
| 03:50 |
|
003 |
| 03:50 |
|
005 |
| 03:50 |
|
007 is not required for minimal but people should use it anyways |
| 03:51 |
|
008 |
| 03:51 |
|
010 |
| 03:51 |
|
040 |
| 03:51 |
kados |
which subfields? |
| 03:52 |
|
just $a? |
| 03:52 |
thd |
010 $a |
| 03:52 |
|
040 $a can be prefilled for original cataloguing |
| 03:52 |
kados |
929 |
| 03:52 |
|
oops 020 |
| 03:52 |
thd |
929? |
| 03:53 |
kados |
I meant 020 |
| 03:53 |
|
<-- tired |
| 03:53 |
thd |
020 $a |
| 03:54 |
kados |
050? |
| 03:55 |
|
100 $a |
| 03:56 |
|
245 $a |
| 03:56 |
|
300 $a $c |
| 03:56 |
|
$650 |
| 03:56 |
thd |
050 #4 $a $b or 082 #4 $a $b depending on the library preference |
| 03:58 |
kados |
did I miss any? |
| 03:58 |
|
650 $a |
| 03:58 |
|
I think those are the main ones |
| 03:58 |
thd |
call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc. |
| 03:58 |
kados |
cutter you mean? |
| 03:58 |
thd |
yes |
| 03:59 |
kados |
ok |
| 03:59 |
|
I have a note |
| 03:59 |
|
any fields missing? |
| 03:59 |
thd |
you left out 260 ## $a $b $c |
| 03:59 |
kados |
ahh |
| 04:00 |
thd |
will the subfield disappear when saved if the value is blank or a space? |
| 04:00 |
kados |
yes |
| 04:01 |
|
the user should also be able to define their own 'templates' |
| 04:01 |
|
similar to our frameworks, but more flexible |
| 04:01 |
|
OK, here's what I have: |
| 04:01 |
|
fields that should be 'standard' for type=='a' and level=='minimal': |
| 04:01 |
|
Leader, 001, 003, 005, 007, 008, 010 $a, 020 $a, 040 $a(prefilled), |
| 04:01 |
|
050 $a $b or 082 $a $b depending on the library preference |
| 04:01 |
|
call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc. |
| 04:01 |
|
100 $a, 245 $a, 260 $a $b $c 300 $a $c 650 $a |
| 04:02 |
|
subfield should disappear if the value is blank or a space |
| 04:02 |
|
and with that, I'm going to head home for some well deserved rest :-) |
| 04:02 |
thd |
then 245 $a $h $b $c |
| 04:03 |
kados |
good night thd |
| 04:03 |
thd |
700 $a |
| 04:03 |
|
:) |
| 04:03 |
|
we could do more with default indicators |
| 04:04 |
|
good night kados |
| 06:08 |
[K] |
*** join #kohaFreeNode: toins_ n=toinspaulpoulain.pck.nerim.net |
| 07:44 |
|
*** join #kohaFreeNode: _lloyd_ n=lloyd_p0nat.wsufftrust.org.uk |
| 07:44 |
lloyd |
morning |
