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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:37 | thd | kados? |
| 12:37 | dewey | it has been said that kados is becoming a true Perl Monger... |
| 12:38 | thd | dewey: seen kados? |
| 12:38 | dewey | kados was last seen on #koha 1 days, 3 hours, 17 minutes and 4 seconds ago, saying: paul++ :-) [Sun Aug 6 02:21:11 2006] |
| 12:42 | thd | jbrice_: are you there? |
| 12:44 | dewey: seen jbrice_? | |
| 12:44 | dewey | I haven't seen 'jbrice_', thd |
| 12:44 | thd | dewey: seen johnb? |
| 12:44 | dewey | johnb was last seen on #koha 14 days, 16 hours, 21 minutes and 12 seconds ago, saying: hey guys its been fun but they are starting to shoot motars my way (fireworks) got a get out of here before the building catches on fire. [Sun Jul 23 13:23:27 2006] |
| 22:32 | thd | russ: are you there? |
| 22:34 | russ | hi thd |
| 22:35 | thd | hello russ |
| 22:35 | russ: I have been starting to create wiki content | |
| 22:36 | russ: unfortunately, the default docuwiki CSS is terrible for readability | |
| 22:37 | russ: I have an improved version for readability | |
| 22:38 | russ: I sent it to kados a day and a half ago but he may be too busy to install it | |
| 22:39 | russ: woould you be able to install my improved CSS for the wiki if I sent it to you? | |
| 22:39 | russ | thd: i dont think it is that bad |
| 22:39 | thd: no, it is on liblimes servers which i dont have access to | |
| 22:40 | thd | russ: oh, yes I remember that it was hosted there now but I thought that you had special access for the wiki |
| 22:41 | russ: it has very long lines with no margins at a small font size in the main body text | |
| 22:42 | russ: that makes full paragraphs difficult to follow | |
| 22:43 | russ: it even uses justification which sometimes gives you this effect | |
| 22:44 | russ: low contrast links, a heading style which is anomalously not bold, etc. | |
| 22:45 | russ: you would not notice for most wiki content | |
| 22:46 | russ: however I started to include some fuller documents and it became a real problem to read them | |
| 22:46 | russ: I will pester kados to try and change it this week | |
| 22:48 | russ: a CSS like the koha.org CSS would be nice but I did not have that much time to understand all the elements and make as many changes as would be required for that | |
| 22:51 | russ: most wiki content is brief outlines which do not reveal these problems much | |
| 02:32 | paul | hdl around ? |
| 02:32 | hdl | yes |
| 03:49 | !topic an amazing catalogue :http://www.worldcat.org/ | |
| 07:08 | jbrice_ | thd: You lookong for me? |
| 07:09 | thd | johnb: yes |
| 07:09 | johnb | thd: what's up? |
| 07:10 | thd | johnb: I wanted to know the status of your work on setting up a Koha foundation |
| 07:11 | johnb | thd: I have been doing some research on what type of structure we should have, I have not done anything else |
| 07:11 | thd | johnb: I what type of structure should we have? |
| 07:12 | johnb: or what are the good options | |
| 07:12 | johnb | thd: It seems to me that we would best to look at the apache foundation they seem to have a structure that works and keeps all of the vested interests represented |
| 07:15 | thd | johnb: if that is your conclusion, I am certain that no one in the present community would object to your proceeding with whatever was officially needed. |
| 07:15 | johnb | thd: the trick in this is creating a structure in which all of the vested interests: developers, users, hosting companies benefit from the foundation |
| 07:16 | thd: while at the same time create a forum that can be managed remotely, across national boundaries | |
| 07:17 | thd | johnb: If the Apache foundation is a good model, then use that model |
| 07:17 | slef | wheel reinvention ;) |
| 07:17 | johnb | thd: I am kinda of busy this week. Give me a week or so I will create an outline of my thoughts and we can post it to the wiki for comment |
| 07:18 | thd | slef: who has the first wheel |
| 07:18 | ? | |
| 07:18 | johnb | thd: overall I think the apache foundation model is pretty good, though we may want to tweak it here and there to fit our unique needs |
| 07:19 | slef | thd: Unsure. There are certainly many wheels there now. Apache, SPI, ... |
| 07:19 | johnb | thd: Overall I would like the process to be open and have as much comment as possible, it is much easier to change things before they become official |
| 07:20 | thd | johnb: kados had been the most anxious for having some foundation soon. I think he became too busy to press for some action after developer week. |
| 07:20 | slef | as in, can't remember how it works |
| 07:21 | I think the biggest questions are: what are the goals, what are the methods, what are the costs? | |
| 07:22 | paul | everybody : in France, ENSMP & sociology libraries had a meeting in july, and the "association loi 1901" idea continues to be investigated |
| 07:22 | (hello thd johnb & slef) | |
| 07:22 | slef | hi paul |
| 07:22 | thd | johnb: certainly, the process should be open. I know slef has important comments. People with actual reservations are seem to express them in terms of a please go ahead and make something great if we like it we will join, |
| 07:25 | slef | My reservation is the overheads:benefits ratio, but I don't want to prejudge things I don't know enough about. |
| 07:25 | thd | johnb: if you have a reasonable starting point. The structure should always be amendable by the participants. |
| 07:25 | slef | thd++ |
| 07:25 | johnb | Paul: Hello, Paul |
| 07:26 | paul | that's why thes description of the "association loi 1901" in the 1st draft is quite large. |
| 07:26 | to let members define exactly what they want to do. | |
| 07:26 | the only important thing being "the association is created to promote the Koha software". | |
| 07:27 | (french word for "promote" having a strong non-commercial meaning, that i'm not sure exist in english) | |
| 07:27 | thd | paul: how is work going to set up a Koha foundation in France? |
| 07:27 | johnb | We need to agree on a mission and then from the mission we can create structure. |
| 07:27 | paul | ENSMP & sociology proposed on french mailing list a 1st draft for a structure. |
| 07:28 | it will have to be discussed after the summer I think | |
| 07:28 | thd | paul: promote is not necessarily commercial in English. |
| 07:28 | slef | but not necessarily non-commercial either |
| 07:28 | johnb | here is a good link to check out: www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure |
| 07:29 | paul | in french, when you say "faire la promotion" => non commercial sense. "faire une promotion" => commercial sense |
| 07:29 | "promouvoir" being non commercial only. | |
| 07:30 | slef | I'd translate "faire la promotion" as "do promotion" and "faire une promotion" as "run a promotion" |
| 07:30 | "do promotion" says nothing about commercialism | |
| 07:30 | but my french is terrible, as we all know ;-) | |
| 07:30 | thd | paul: English being language soup, lacks that distinction. |
| 07:31 | slef | I wonder whether I'd translate promouvoir as promote or advocate, usually. |
| 07:31 | johnb | Not to change to tpic, but Cindy and I are going to be interviewed today by a California movie producer for a documentary entitled "Tipping Point" |
| 07:31 | slef | anyway, it's certainly not advertise |
| 07:31 | not necessarily | |
| 07:31 | mmm, english, a language divided unto itself | |
| 07:31 | so much flavour, so much of it bitter | |
| 07:32 | johnb: whassat? | |
| 07:32 | thd | paul: did you mean that the discussion of the French foundation would probably have to wait until after the summer or any foundation? |
| 07:32 | johnb | The idea of the movie is to discuss how entities chose to use open source. The producer is using open source software to produce the movie. |
| 07:33 | Paul: I will post something in the next few weeks and will await comment until mid September before proposing anything. | |
| 07:36 | thd | johnb: my understanding from devel_week is that Katipo may not agree to anything in particular but they will be happy to support and consider joining a foundation which is proven successful. |
| 07:36 | slef | s/open source/free/ ;-) |
| 07:38 | thd | johnb: the principals of Katipo could not attend devel week but their representatives made a reasonable presentation about the prospective stance of Katipo. |
| 07:41 | johnb: we could discuss a more perfect foundation for a year without creating one. At some point, those who need a foundation have to take some initiative to start something. | |
| 07:42 | paul | thd +++ |
| 07:44 | thd | johnb: as long as the structure is somewhat amendable. A more perfect foundation will never be excluded. |
| 07:45 | johnb: if everything is done in the light by people with good will, no one will think it unfair. | |
| 07:47 | johnb: Koha is not big enough yet to have anyone worried about slighting some one else's interests. | |
| 07:49 | johnb: the longer it takes, the more opportunities will be lost for promoting the interests of even the people who do not even care particularly about a foundation. | |
| 07:51 | johnb: is Tipping Point liable to go to cinemas or television first? | |
| 07:53 | johnb | thd: I have no idea, they have not told us what there distribution plan is at this point |
| 07:56 | thd | johnb: they already have a better title than the weak film which I have seen about open source/free software a few years ago. |
| 07:59 | slef | Revolution OS or something else? |
| 07:59 | thd | johnb: that film ended with the boost in Red Hat stock price before the bubble collapsed. Nice participants but poor post-filming editing etc. work diluted the quality of some interesting interviews. |
| 08:00 | slef: yes, that was the title | |
| 08:02 | johnb: tell them to interview Eben Moglen, the FSF lawyer and a fantastic very clever energetic speaker, even if they are able to interview Richard Stallman. | |
| 08:06 | Mordazy | Hello all |
| 08:06 | I`m new here | |
| 08:06 | got a few questions :) | |
| 08:06 | Anybody here? | |
| 08:07 | thd | hello Mordazy |
| 08:07 | Mordazy | Hello thd |
| 08:08 | I`m testing Polish version of Koha 2.2.4 | |
| 08:08 | I like it a lot | |
| 08:08 | however, one thing scared me: | |
| 08:09 | thd | johnb: If they are able to interview Damian Conway, 'mad scientist of Perl', never a dull moment is guaranteed. |
| 08:10 | Mordazy | I haven`t found a way to "attach" a borrower to more than one library branch |
| 08:11 | thd | Mordazy:I am not a circulation expert |
| 08:11 | Mordazy | Also couldn`t verify if a borrower from branch A has restricted access to branch B |
| 08:12 | thd: pity :( | |
| 08:13 | thd | Mordazy: I think that membership of one branch is usually membership for the library system so I would expect that is default behaviour |
| 08:14 | Mordazy | That`s the problem. My library has several branches, some of them charge annual fee |
| 08:14 | thd | Mordazy: so branches have different policies |
| 08:14 | about membership | |
| 08:15 | Mordazy | yes, it is because the branches that charge annual fee are DVD / Audio collections |
| 08:16 | the charge is about $6 a year, which is rather symbolic | |
| 08:17 | but yes, the branches have different policies about membership | |
| 08:17 | slef | Mordazy: if you can describe this membership model in more detail to the koha mailing list(s), someone may explain how to do it, or it may be added to a coming version. |
| 08:17 | thd | Mordazy: branches are certainly provided with policy differentiation |
| 08:17 | johnb | thd: Will do. |
| 08:18 | thd | Mordazy: also where had you downloaded Koha? |
| 08:19 | Mordazy | 2.2.4 from Sourceforge, if I remember correctly |
| 08:20 | slef | Savannah or Sourceforge? |
| 08:20 | Mordazy | can`t remember, sorry |
| 08:20 | then copied database structure and intranet files from working Polish installation | |
| 08:23 | I was told that only minor things were changed | |
| 08:24 | slef | run updatedatabase (I think it's in scripts... backup database first) |
| 08:25 | Mordazy | slef: did that |
| 08:26 | it`s strange that nobody wanted such borrower / branch restrictions... | |
| 08:26 | thd | Mordazy: there are some major changes/bug fixes in the version being prepared for release |
| 08:26 | Mordazy: http://download.savannah.nongn[…]rg/releases/koha/ | |
| 08:27 | Mordazy | thd: thanks, I saw that, but for now I must stick with 2.2.4 |
| 08:27 | thd | Mordazy: the 2.2.6 release candidate is being tested for production release |
| 08:28 | Mordazy | I know, however the man from whom I took Polish files is not very content about it |
| 08:29 | thd | Mordazy: unreported bugs prior to 2.2.6 are very scary |
| 08:29 | Mordazy | I`ll download 2.2.6 and have a look |
| 08:30 | thd | Mordazy: Is MARC 21 used in Poland? |
| 08:30 | Mordazy | however, I`m learning all of it yet, so I have to stick with what I have :) |
| 08:31 | thd: yes, we had local variation of Marc | |
| 08:31 | but now most libraries use M21 | |
| 08:33 | thd | Mordazy: the functions are very similar between 2.2.6 and 2.2.4 except you can loose data and corrupt your records silently in earlier versions. |
| 08:34 | Mordazy: experimenting with 2.2.4 is fine and has been used at many libraries but I would not feel safe with versions prior to 2.2.6 if I had a library. | |
| 08:34 | Mordazy | hmmmm |
| 08:34 | you say? | |
| 08:36 | Anyway, there will be a year before we implement Koha in our library | |
| 08:36 | thd | Mordazy: the biggest bug is that without a comprehensive MARC bibliographic framework only in 2.2.6 for MARC 21 your records loose many fields once you edit them. |
| 08:36 | Mordazy | But I wanted to have a working system in 2-3 months to test... |
| 08:37 | thd | Mordazy: In one year Koha will be the world's best ILS in version 3.2. |
| 08:38 | Mordazy | ...and I will finish learning Perl, SQL, PHP and many other things :) |
| 08:38 | thd | Mordazy: there may even be a later version in one year |
| 08:39 | Mordazy | actually number of releases doesn`t matter to me |
| 08:39 | once I get system up and running stable, I won`t change it in years :) | |
| 08:41 | OK, have to go | |
| 08:42 | but will come here often, I think :) | |
| 08:42 | thd | Mordazy: there is a major structural change being worked on now which is transforming how everything works. That is already partly available in the 2.3 experimental release which should be stable as 2.4 in a few weeks. |
| 08:42 | Mordazy | Bye! |
| 08:46 | thd | kados: are you awake yet? |
| 08:51 | owen | thd: you and I will have to arm-wrestle for his attention when he wakes up ;) |
| 08:52 | thd | owen: I only need a minute of his attention |
| 08:53 | owen: do you have permissions to update the CSS on the wiki? | |
| 08:53 | owen | No, I'm afraid not |
| 08:54 | Maybe russ? | |
| 08:55 | thd | owen: I sent kados an updated CSS on Saturday. russ told me that he does not have permissions because it is now on a LibLime server. |
| 08:55 | owen | Oh. I didn't know that. |
| 08:56 | thd | owen: I think improving the wiki had been a task that pierrick had been addressing, alas no longer. |
| 08:59 | owen: I wanted to ask kados to find the time to apply my Docuwiki CSS file revisions within a couple of days. He only has to copy the file I sent into place | |
| 09:00 | owen: the default CSS was all on one line, never meant to be human readable. | |
| 09:01 | owen: I found several problems for readability of full documents on the wiki and I want to link to send people to one of them by the end of the week. | |
| 09:02 | or actually even the middle of the week for one person | |
| 09:09 | owen: see http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.p[…]saveas=&save=save for some problems I found. | |
| 09:20 | kados | hdl: you around? |
| 09:20 | hdl | yes. |
| 09:20 | kados | hdl: any luck on the serials bugs? |
| 09:21 | hdl | which one full-serial-issue ? |
| 09:22 | or next expected issue one ? | |
| 09:22 | kados | 1124, 1136, 1125 |
| 09:22 | serials is broken until those are fixed | |
| 09:23 | I had a client try the new serials and this was based on their report | |
| 09:23 | 1140 | |
| 09:23 | 4 blocker bugs for serials I think | |
| 09:24 | owen | kados: I tried adding a serial this morning on NPL's test server and got a 500 error |
| 09:24 | kados | hmmm ... maybe a 5th then :( |
| 09:24 | owen | Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /home/oleonard/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Bull.pm line 547 |
| 09:24 | kados | huh ... |
| 09:24 | that might be a MARC21 prob | |
| 09:24 | did the record you added it for have a leader? | |
| 09:25 | hdl | 1124 seems to be a simple order pb Is it not ? |
| 09:25 | owen | kados: I created a bare-bones record from scratch. All I filled in was a title. |
| 09:26 | kados | yea, you need to have a leader with position 09 with a value of 'a' |
| 09:26 | I need to force that in Biblio.pm I think | |
| 09:27 | hdl: it's simple? great, should be simple to fix then ;-) | |
| 09:27 | hdl | kados : Have you read my comment ? |
| 09:27 | kados | yes ... and I responded |
| 09:27 | hdl | on that bug ? |
| 09:27 | kados | yep |
| 09:27 | hdl | No the answer to your comment. |
| 09:27 | kados | http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1124 |
| 09:28 | hdl: take a look at my response | |
| 09:29 | hdl | OK. |
| 09:29 | so format_date has a problem. | |
| 09:29 | paul | hdl : about ordering => do you know that mySQL has a if() function, that could be used to order by publisheddate if it is not empty, otherwise by the previous date |
| 09:29 | kados | hdl: either format_date, or else the serials aren't getting the right dates in the first place |
| 09:29 | paul | strange, because format_date is used a lot of time all around Koha. What it the exact content of the field before the date_format ? |
| 09:30 | kados | guys ... can I suggest something? |
| 09:30 | on one of your installs: | |
| 09:30 | 1. create a new subscription | |
| 09:30 | 2. check in 5 issues | |
| 09:30 | you should see all the bugs I reported immediately | |
| 09:31 | hdl | kados : ok. |
| 09:32 | I will work on this tonight and tomorow. | |
| 09:32 | (if paul agrees) | |
| 09:32 | thd | kados: will you have a chance to apply my file to fix the wiki CSS some time in the next couple of days? |
| 09:32 | kados | thd: I will do it now |
| 09:33 | thd | wow what a response |
| 09:34 | paul | hoping you won't need 2 days ;-) |
| 09:35 | kados | thd: where does it go? |
| 09:36 | thd: replace style.css? | |
| 09:36 | thd | kados check the message |
| 09:38 | kados | thd: ok, I updated it |
| 09:38 | thd | kados: it goes here http://wiki.koha.org/lib/exe/css.php |
| 09:38 | kados | thd: it seems to be quite ugly :-) |
| 09:39 | thd: I'm going to revert back to the old one if that's OK | |
| 09:39 | thd | kados: i never made a beaurty claim if you read the message. I only claimed that unreadable was uglier. |
| 09:40 | kados: beauty requires time | |
| 09:40 | kados: I did not have the time for beauty | |
| 09:40 | kados | thd: you have trouble reading the wiki.koha.org site? |
| 09:40 | thd: why not just increase the font? | |
| 09:40 | size? | |
| 09:41 | thd: also, you can create a local css file for your browser | |
| 09:41 | thd: to override any css on the web | |
| 09:41 | thd | kados: the line lengths are still to long to scan if you have real paragraphs |
| 09:43 | kados: I still have than perfect vision with a large body and had trouble following full text in the body. | |
| 09:45 | kados: are you back? | |
| 09:45 | kados | thd: yep |
| 09:45 | thd | kados: did you see "I still have than perfect vision with a large body and had trouble following full text in the body." |
| 09:46 | s/perfect/perfect, but text | |
| 09:46 | kados | thd: yes, I see that |
| 09:46 | thd | s/vision/vision, but text |
| 09:47 | kados: there was almost no right margin | |
| 09:47 | owen | I didn't see the custom one, but I like the default stylesheet just fine. |
| 09:47 | I don't think we should replace it unless someone can really work out the kinks of a new one | |
| 09:47 | kados | thd: I think your sole solution for now is to use a local css to override the existing one :( |
| 09:48 | thd: until, as owen says, someone can really work out the kinks of a new one | |
| 09:48 | thd: have you created a local css before? | |
| 09:49 | thd | kados: If I have problems with perfect vision I guarantee people with less than perfect vision have a much worse problem |
| 09:49 | kados owen: you have not seen the problems because they are not apparent without full dcuments | |
| 09:50 | kados owen-away: the wiki has almost no full documents | |
| 09:52 | kados: I used the Firefox web developer plugin to test locally but that steals 20% of the screen so it was difficult to see a proper view. | |
| 09:52 | kados | thd: here's what you can do |
| 09:53 | thd: locate your 'crome' dir in your firefox installation | |
| 09:53 | in your browser user profile | |
| 09:53 | copy the file you emailed me to userContent.css | |
| 09:54 | that should override the site's css and you'll be viewing it as you please :-) | |
| 09:54 | thd | kados: you mean that every web site will have that CSS? |
| 09:54 | kados | thd: yes :-) |
| 09:55 | you can restrict it to a specific site I think | |
| 09:55 | but I don't have time to investigate that | |
| 09:55 | thd | kados: I will investigate myself tomorrow |
| 10:07 | kados: I will test the wiki CSS locally tomorrow to try and make it a little more like the beautiful koha.org CSS. I consider it to be a significant problem for including anything more than outline content. I know that my changes were not beautiful but I consider the existing CSS merely decorative and not very functional for full documents. | |
| 10:07 | kados | fair enough |
| 10:08 | I'm willing to change the css if someone has a better alternative, but so far, you're the only one to complain about the current one | |
| 10:08 | bbl | |
| 10:08 | thd | kados: as I said there is nothing to complain about if no one has documents that need anything better |
| 10:12 | slef | I'm just used to sites having broken CSS and I'm usually challenged to fix them if I complain, so I mostly don't complain until I have time to fix if asked. |
| 10:13 | kados | thd did submit a fix, but it was just a bit too ugly for public consumption IMO :-) |
| 10:14 | slef | I was trying to explain why lack of complaints doesn't mean it's good ;-) |
| 10:15 | kados | ahh :-) |
| 10:15 | thd | slef kados: I remember comment during devel week that we should make the wiki CSS like the one at koha.org. Pierrick was going to work on that but not having him around is a big loss. |
| 10:16 | kados | thd: yea, that would be nice |
| 10:17 | thd | kados: I think it is fine for the outline content it mostly had but I have been trying to put in fuller content and noticing significant problems/ |
| 11:27 | kyle | kados: are you around? |
| 11:28 | kados | kyle: yep |
| 11:29 | kyle | I was wondering if you could give me more detail on your idea of how to get data out of the offline circ extension, and into koha. |
| 11:29 | kados | right |
| 11:29 | well off the top of my head | |
| 11:29 | you could create a mirror tmpl that spat out xml | |
| 11:30 | when passed a var | |
| 11:30 | then you could pretty easily parse that client-side using the standard DOM stuff | |
| 11:30 | kyle | ok, I get that. I assume we'd have to a a POST argument to make the perl files use the xml template instead of the standard one. |
| 11:30 | kados | ie, use the same circulation.pl script we have now |
| 11:30 | yea | |
| 11:30 | something like tmpl=xml or something | |
| 11:31 | kyle | I don't think I fully understood what you meant the first time you explained it, and this morning the pieces all fell together. |
| 11:31 | kados | cool |
| 11:31 | yea, I don't imagine it'll be that difficult | |
| 11:31 | basically you just need to make sure that circulation.xml hands valid xml back | |
| 11:32 | kyle | Are there any resourses you can point me to on POSTING to a webpage from firefox? |
| 11:32 | kados | hmmm |
| 11:32 | use XMLHttpRequest | |
| 11:32 | kyle | ok, I'll check that out. I've been doing a bit of reading on XMLHttpRequest. |
| 11:33 | I've never worked with AJAX before. | |
| 11:33 | kados | kyle: http://labs.liblime.com//js/livesearch.js |
| 11:33 | kyle: there's something to get you started | |
| 11:33 | kyle: labs.liblime.com has the livesearch running if you want to see it in action | |
| 11:33 | kyle | thanks. |
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