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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:04 | thd | kados: I still think that the top level node should be the full form with all the subdivisions on a line |
| 12:04 | kados: $a should start underneath the full form when expanded | |
| 12:05 | kados | I could do that quite easily |
| 12:05 | thd | kados: then you would technically have a four level hierarchy |
| 12:05 | kados | right |
| 12:05 | I'm not 100% convinced though | |
| 12:05 | I think the three-level is a bit more what users expect | |
| 12:06 | at least it's what I'd expect | |
| 12:07 | thd | kados: you would not want to waste people's time expanding nodes which only have $a so those should be automatically expanded or not show a sublevel |
| 12:07 | kados | they are/do |
| 12:07 | only nodes that have more than $a have a + | |
| 12:08 | and I can auto-expand them if that's the desired behavior | |
| 12:08 | thd | kados: yes but they might with my suggestion above where $a is a sublevel of the full form |
| 12:08 | kados | ahh |
| 12:09 | thd | kados: default expansion would be good if the result set was small |
| 12:10 | kados: the biggest problem is that you need to locate this where there is more screen space for an interesting display | |
| 12:30 | kados | thd: ok, I think the prototype is finished |
| 12:30 | thd: it only uses $a $x $v currently | |
| 12:30 | thd: but it will create trees of $a->$x, $a->$x->$v and $a->$v | |
| 12:30 | thd | $z is very important |
| 12:30 | kados | yes, I can add that once we confirm my logic is correct |
| 12:31 | (very simple copy/paste to add it) | |
| 12:31 | thd | not to forget $y but that is a little less common |
| 12:33 | kados: maybe everything should not be expanded initially but I think $x should always be expanded unless the user has closed it | |
| 12:35 | kados: checkboxes for selecting $a Kings and rulers as well as $v Fiction while ignoring the $x subject subdivision | |
| 12:36 | are missing | |
| 12:37 | kados | hehe |
| 12:38 | that part can't be done in this design | |
| 12:38 | thd | kados: what is the limitation? |
| 12:38 | kados | my skill :-) |
| 12:38 | thd | kados: I did it |
| 12:39 | kados | well, I'm quite happy with this one at the moment |
| 12:39 | thd | kados: that is a fundamental part of one of my secret experiments from two years ago |
| 12:40 | kados | yea, but I think too many options confuses the user |
| 12:40 | thd | kados: of course it is good |
| 12:40 | kados | as it is, knowing how to expand the list is pretty hard for most users |
| 12:40 | thd | kados: you have to give the user a chance to be confused first :) |
| 12:40 | kados | hehe |
| 12:40 | well, I'll give it some thought | |
| 12:41 | currently, everything is implemented as a link | |
| 12:41 | to do it your way, I'd have to change that to use input tags | |
| 12:41 | which would be a major overhaul of the javascript stuff | |
| 12:41 | thd | kados: yes so it would be a form |
| 12:41 | kados | yep |
| 12:41 | this is good enough for my initial purposes | |
| 12:42 | I think we should give it a nifty name | |
| 12:42 | KohaBrowser or some such | |
| 12:42 | (course, it's not as fancy as the AcquaBrowser ) | |
| 12:43 | thd | kados: there is a usability problem for not being able to easily and obviously select the fully expanded form |
| 12:43 | kados: yes they built that themselves | |
| 12:44 | kados: another non-intuitive interface | |
| 12:45 | kados: did you notice that dancing term relation eye candy | |
| 12:47 | kados: their progressive subdivision link search is what you have implemented but it belies the actual structure of the subdivisions | |
| 12:49 | kados: as $v is not necessarily exclusively related to $x. | |
| 12:50 | kados_: or better $v is not a subdivision of $z as implied by the Queens Library subject linking interface | |
| 12:52 | kados_: I used the implied continuous progressive hierarchy at Queens Library as an example of a mistaken understanding of subdivision hierarchies. | |
| 12:54 | kados_: more importantly it is not obvious to the user that searching for the fully subdivided subject requires clicking on the last term | |
| 12:55 | kados: that is why I was recommending a separate link with the full subject as the top node | |
| 12:56 | kados_: are you there? | |
| 12:59 | kados_ | thd: I'm here |
| 13:00 | kados | server musta timed out |
| 13:01 | search on neal stephenson | |
| 13:01 | thd | kados_: did you read what I posted about the mistaken progression in the Queens Library interface? |
| 13:01 | kados | they don't have what we have |
| 13:01 | you can't expand "Kings and rulers" | |
| 13:02 | thd: please explain a bit more | |
| 13:02 | thd | kados: they have the ability to expand or restrict the search progressively as if it is one continuous hierarchy which is what you have |
| 13:02 | kados | you mean the aquabrowser? |
| 13:02 | thd | kados: yes |
| 13:03 | kados | i see that as something completely different |
| 13:03 | I don't get 'Kings and rulers' in the acqua browser | |
| 13:04 | the aquabroser looks to be a bit more intelligent | |
| 13:04 | though perhaps not quite as useful :-) | |
| 13:04 | and I have a design for it as well using an open source toolkit | |
| 13:05 | the thing we just designed is an improved version of what they have on the right-hand side | |
| 13:05 | the 'Refine your search' column | |
| 13:06 | thd: http://aqua.queenslibrary.org | |
| 13:06 | though I won't get any arguments that their's looks way better :-) | |
| 13:07 | that came out wring | |
| 13:07 | wrong even | |
| 13:08 | s/a/as/ | |
| 13:09 | thd | kados: I cannot see the eye candy because it must require Flash 8 which is not available for GNU/Linux. |
| 13:09 | kados | ahh |
| 13:09 | well it looks very pretty in Firefox on OSX with Flash | |
| 13:10 | thd | kados: you can make it pretty and the eye candy is merely decorative rather than useful |
| 13:10 | kados | well, it's useful for sales :-) |
| 13:10 | thd | kados: so you see the animation in OSX? |
| 13:11 | kados | yes |
| 13:11 | it's pretty cool | |
| 13:11 | I can reproduce it though :-) | |
| 13:11 | thd | kados: and yes the eye candy would create sales but I do not know of any free or open source version of the dancing term nodes |
| 13:12 | kados | using http://www.touchgraph.com/ |
| 13:12 | that's open source and it works as well | |
| 13:12 | uses java | |
| 13:12 | (do you have java installed?) | |
| 13:12 | thd | kados: yes I do |
| 13:13 | kados: although Java is not free, well neither is Flash | |
| 13:13 | kados | true enough |
| 13:15 | thd | kados: Java is also much slower than flash |
| 13:16 | kados | hehe |
| 13:16 | thd: you need to trade work for a new computer that works well :-) | |
| 13:18 | thd | kados: ok, what can I do, I have a new computer that just needs an expensive hard drive |
| 13:18 | kados | you do? |
| 13:18 | thd | kados: It may also need an expensive DC power supply |
| 13:19 | kados: I have a couple of Intel rack servers from two years ago | |
| 13:19 | kados | ahh, cool |
| 13:54 | thd | kados: I know that Flash would have been much faster than this. |
| 13:54 | kados: this eye candy stuff is good for selling systems but it does not scale into a useful tool. | |
| 13:55 | kados | yep, in general I agree |
| 13:57 | thd | kados: the general problem is that given a large enough term set no one has enough RAM to store all the nodes and the tags start cluttering up the screen and blocking the view of each other fairly quickly long before you have RAM problems. |
| 13:57 | kados | yep |
| 13:57 | thd | kados: there is also not enough network bandwidth for a large term set. |
| 13:58 | kados: however, I show people good stuff and then I show them this and they think that this is the real thing. | |
| 13:59 | kados | this? meaning nearly what we just did this morning? |
| 13:59 | thd | kados: the eye candy is probably a requirement for selling the systems so that the ignorant can feel comfortable with having taken a good choice for the wrong reasons |
| 14:00 | kados | yep :-) |
| 14:01 | thd | kados: 'this' meaning dancing visualisation tools not what we were working on this morning |
| 14:01 | kados: there is a problem with what we were working on this morning | |
| 14:02 | kados | ahh |
| 14:02 | thd | kados: now that my system has recovered from loading the eye candy I can check the comparison with the aqua interface at Queens Library |
| 14:02 | kados | well, it doesn't have the checkboxes you want :-) |
| 14:03 | thd | kados: that has an important consequence |
| 14:04 | kados | but my problem with that is I don't think it can be done in a way that users can understand |
| 14:04 | thd | kados: you have a tree diagram that shows the relationships correctly but you cannot do anything with the nodes individually |
| 14:04 | kados | true ... |
| 14:04 | but we'd have to come up with a new interface to handle that interaction | |
| 14:05 | the current design can't support it in a user-friendly way IMO | |
| 14:06 | thd | kados: e-tailers with some sense are paying $100,000 plus to add this sort of thing for their customers |
| 14:06 | kados: library users are more clever than the average person trying to by a shirt online. | |
| 14:10 | kados: I know what it looks like because I did it. | |
| 14:11 | kados: the web is full of interfaces which show your search terms with a checkbox next to each term at the top of the result set. | |
| 14:11 | kados | yes that's true |
| 14:11 | I agree it's trivial to do | |
| 14:12 | but maybe not in a single day :-) | |
| 14:12 | thd | kados: it is far from the dominant usability enhancement but is more likely to be ignored than to create confusion. |
| 14:54 | kados: your five minutes are up and I have a link for you with an example | |
| 14:54 | kados: are you back yet? | |
| 15:31 | kados | thd: welcome back |
| 15:31 | thd | kados: http://www.ovid.com/site/help/[…]_guide.html#Tools |
| 15:34 | kados: also in the same page http://www.ovid.com/site/help/[…]uide.html#Mapping | |
| 15:46 | kados: I have a better link from McGill which is now broken | |
| 15:47 | kados: It has much better screen shots and is partly working in the internet archive | |
| 15:48 | kados: http://web.archive.org/web/200[…]utorial/broad.htm | |
| 15:49 | kados: look at the table of contents | |
| 15:50 | kados: the images are broken for subject searching | |
| 15:50 | at the top level | |
| 15:51 | kados: however the images are there for subparts of subject searching after mapping | |
| 15:52 | kados: requires clicking on each separately | |
| 15:53 | kados: the images are good and explain well but the more recent versions of the same manual on Ovid's own web site are not as clear or at least lack enough good screen shots | |
| 15:54 | kados: the Ovid link which I supplied was for a more general manual | |
| 15:55 | kados | interesting |
| 15:55 | it's still hard to picture it without actually using it | |
| 15:56 | (at least it is for me :-)) | |
| 15:58 | thd | kados: the example in the internet archive at least gives you a step by step search example |
| 16:04 | kados: do you have a link for tree expansion using XML without page reloading? | |
| 16:05 | kados | no I don't ... |
| 16:06 | thd | kados: you had described something to me but did that reload the page? |
| 16:07 | kados | yes ... I've done it before but the code is somewhere on my terabyte hard drive |
| 16:07 | I really need to spend about a week organizing things | |
| 16:07 | thd | kados: you described something which did not use JavaScript and did not merely hide the content but fetched it when the node was expanded. |
| 16:07 | kados | no, that usese javascript |
| 16:08 | using XMLHttpRequest() | |
| 16:08 | a javascript method | |
| 16:08 | you could do something similar with cleverly placed invisible frames | |
| 16:08 | thd | kados: is there no Perlish way to do that? |
| 16:08 | kados | but i fear it would cause problems with browser versions |
| 16:08 | not without a page reload | |
| 16:09 | thd | kados: frames are almost always evil |
| 16:09 | kados | yep |
| 16:09 | thd | kados: I suspect even invisible frames are evil |
| 16:09 | kados | :-) |
| 16:10 | thd | kados: page reloads are not really a problem when the content is not large |
| 16:11 | kados: my secret test interface allows the user to have every node of an entire thesaurus open if the server imposes no limit so reloading could be expensive. | |
| 16:12 | kados | yea |
| 16:12 | evergreen has some nice interfaces in javascript | |
| 16:12 | as does amazon.com | |
| 16:12 | and google for that matter | |
| 16:12 | thd | kados: by every node I do not mean every node in one branch but multiple branches simultaneously |
| 16:13 | kados: some of the Google AJAX interfaces bring my system to a crawl | |
| 16:15 | kados: is Evergreen any easier to install now? | |
| 16:29 | kados | no :-) |
| 16:29 | it's harder in fact :-) | |
| 16:57 | thd | kados: more features mean more difficult to install? |
| 16:57 | kados | for? |
| 16:58 | evergreen? | |
| 16:58 | thd | evergreen |
| 16:58 | kados | yes, in general ... |
| 16:58 | mainly it's the underlying framework it's built on that makes it so complex | |
| 16:58 | it's even more complex than zope | |
| 16:58 | thd | :) |
| 16:58 | kados | they basically invented their own Server Request Framework (transport layer for communicating between servers) |
| 17:16 | there is data loss if there are parallel elements within a given subject | |
| 17:16 | (meaning it discards all but the last subdivision) | |
| 17:16 | gotta fix that... | |
| 17:21 | thd: you still there? | |
| 17:21 | thd: do you have any example records that have repeated $x, $y $z (any or all)? | |
| 17:22 | thd: I can import them into this dataset for testing purposes | |
| 17:23 | thd | kados: some of your other clients do have them |
| 17:23 | kados: and many of them while NPL has few | |
| 17:24 | kados: I basically use only one record and test over and over again with that record because it exhibits so many difficulties | |
| 17:24 | kados | if there is a repeated $x and repeated $v/y/z, how should they properly nest? |
| 17:24 | which record? | |
| 17:24 | thd | kados: I searched for a good example to test for problems |
| 17:24 | kados: I did not find it accidentally | |
| 17:25 | kados | should I pay you for it? :-) |
| 17:25 | thd | kados: search for Forgotten Chicago at LC |
| 17:25 | kados: It is actually missing some problems | |
| 17:26 | kados: so there is another record that I have used but not for what you have been asking | |
| 17:28 | kados: Oh wait, a repeated $x well that is rare and always a cataloguing mistake when I have seen it | |
| 17:29 | kados: Forgotten Chicago has a repeated $z | |
| 17:29 | kados: and some significant multiple divisions | |
| 17:31 | kados: every time I have seen a repeated $x except maybe once it should have been a $z instead | |
| 17:33 | kados: the only other time which might have been legitimate there was no subdivision for the repeated $x | |
| 17:35 | kados: there is a possible good repeated $x in Afognak if you wanted to search there. I fixed the bad ones which should have been $z and came from obscure libraries in Canada. | |
| 17:35 | kados | thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]Forgotten+Chicago |
| 17:35 | thd: it's imported | |
| 17:36 | thd | kados: it does not have a repeated $x if that is what you wanted |
| 17:36 | kados | thd: tell me if the subject tree is acting like you expect with that record |
| 17:36 | thd: ahh ... :( | |
| 17:36 | it does have repeated $z | |
| 17:36 | thd | kados: read above to see that is very rare |
| 17:37 | kados | I don't have $z displaying currently |
| 17:37 | thd | kados but yes it has repeated $z which is common |
| 17:37 | kados | now in one of the subjects, the order is: |
| 17:37 | $a $z $z $x $v | |
| 17:37 | does that mean that the $zs are branching from the $a? | |
| 17:38 | or are they parallel to the $a? | |
| 17:40 | thd | kados: they are subsidiary to the $a necessarily but this would suggest that everything is equally subsidiary to the $a |
| 17:40 | kados | man ... that's a paiin |
| 17:40 | thd | kados: it may be a mistake |
| 17:40 | kados | I'm stumped over how to represent all the possibilities |
| 17:40 | thd | kados: or an outdated form |
| 17:42 | kados: I have been reading about the history of LC subject heading usage and almost no one had been keeping the authorised forms up to date. | |
| 17:47 | kados | hey mason |
| 17:51 | hi johnb | |
| 17:51 | thd | kados: work to correct that problem is only a few years old after research done through OCLC. |
| 17:52 | kados: the 1980 LC subject cataloguing manual is no help | |
| 17:58 | johnb | Hi Kados |
| 17:59 | thd | kados: you need a subscription to Cataloguer's Desktop. They have all of the manuals and they are up to date. |
| 17:59 | mason | hi |
| 18:00 | its sunny and freezing here in wgtn | |
| 18:00 | im thinbking about having a morning shower | |
| 18:00 | johnb | We have had 2.5 inches of rain today. Temp is in the 70's |
| 18:03 | thd | kados: I just checked this excellent book and the answer seemed to be4 unknown |
| 18:04 | kados: http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ[…]v=glance&n=283155 | |
| 18:04 | kados | bummer |
| 18:04 | johnb: have you guys managed to get zoomkoha going yet? | |
| 18:08 | johnb | Kados: Cindy has been on vacation this week. She will work on it next week. |
| 18:11 | thd | kados: I may have found the problem |
| 18:12 | kados | thd: yea? do tell |
| 18:12 | johnb: sounds good ... she deserves it :-) | |
| 18:12 | thd | kados: well I was mistaken |
| 18:14 | kados: Chan, in her revision of imroth's Guide to LC Subject Headings gives an example | |
| 18:15 | oops Imroth may have had nothing to with the subject headings guide | |
| 18:16 | kados | johnb: mason you guys seen the new browse feature in the ZOOMOpac? |
| 18:16 | thd and I whipped it up this morning and have been spending the afternoon refining it | |
| 18:16 | thd | kados: I had imagined that the seeming anomaly fit the pattern but it does not |
| 18:16 | kados | http://zoomopac.liblime.com |
| 18:17 | thd: (BTW: got $v and $z to play nicely) | |
| 18:17 | thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]Forgotten+Chicago | |
| 18:17 | thd | kados: Chan gives the following patterns |
| 18:18 | actually it does fit | |
| 18:19 | so in the example for Place-Topic-Time-Form we have an example that starts with a topic before place | |
| 18:20 | Art Criticism--France-Paris--History--18th century--Bibliography | |
| 18:22 | kados | ok |
| 18:22 | thd | kados: the other common forms just omit some parts |
| 18:22 | kados | thd: should we split up subjects into geographic, topic, etc.? |
| 18:23 | thd: also, 'Fiction' seems to be the most common subdivision | |
| 18:23 | thd | kados: so the only way to make sense of this in a rational scheme fitting with the theory for subject assignment is with a two level hierarchy |
| 18:23 | kados | thd: should it really be nested or should it be it's own root? |
| 18:23 | thd | kados: NPL has nothing but fiction :) |
| 18:23 | kados | hehe |
| 18:24 | thd | kados: fiction is a form subdivision |
| 18:24 | kados | thd: http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]y=neal+stephenson |
| 18:24 | thd: look under 'scientists' | |
| 18:26 | johnb | Kados: Just looked over the zoomopac. Looks like you got everything in there, but the kitchen sink! |
| 18:26 | thd | kados: I think we need a two level hierarchy and I was mistaken previously |
| 18:26 | kados | johnb: :-) |
| 18:27 | johnb: still don't have a aquabrowser equivilent | |
| 18:27 | johnb: but I've got ideas for that as well :-) | |
| 18:27 | thd: do tell | |
| 18:27 | thd | kados: Place-Topic-Time-Form should be all parallel under $a |
| 18:28 | kados | thd: those being which subfields? |
| 18:29 | johnb: the nice thing is you can enable/disable things you don't want | |
| 18:29 | thd | kados: $z Place or Geographic -- $x Topic -- $y Time or Period -- $v Form |
| 18:30 | kados | thd: k |
| 18:30 | johnb | Kados: We like options |
| 18:30 | kados | thd: that simplifies the hierarchy |
| 18:31 | johnb: any comments on the new nested faceted results browse thingy? | |
| 18:31 | Burgundavia: you too ... http://zoomopac.liblime.com ... do a search and watch the left-hand side | |
| 18:32 | thd | kados: there would be other elements for personal and corporate names where you have works etc. as subdivisions in addition to the less common subdivisions for non-name-like subjects |
| 18:32 | kados | thd: currently I have only put in 100s and 700s ... but I could easily add 110, 710, etc. |
| 18:33 | thd: but I assume those should have their own category, right? | |
| 18:33 | Burgundavia | kados: interesting, but that section needs a title |
| 18:33 | kados | Burgundavia: any suggestions? |
| 18:33 | Burgundavia | such as "related subjects, titles and authors" |
| 18:33 | thd | kados: I was also referring to 600 and 610 |
| 18:33 | kados | thd: ahh |
| 18:33 | Burgundavia | kados: you also lose the navigation bar, which is kind of annoying |
| 18:34 | johnb | Kados: I like the nesty thigamajig (love all of this high tech jargon) |
| 18:34 | kados | hehe |
| 18:36 | thd: should 600 and 610 be listed under subjects? | |
| 18:37 | thd: or should they have their own category? | |
| 18:37 | thd | kados; yes definitely |
| 18:37 | kados | thd: maybe 'People' for personal names? |
| 18:37 | thd: I think that's how queens does it | |
| 18:37 | thd | kados: definitely subjects but you should identify them |
| 18:38 | kados: every different type of subject should be represented separately with the option for the user to much them together | |
| 18:38 | johnb | Kados: I have just looked up some of our LC subject heading stuff |
| 18:39 | kados | johnb: yea? |
| 18:39 | johnb | Used a book and everything |
| 18:39 | kados | hehe |
| 18:39 | thd | kados: if you grouped personal and corporate names most users would not know the difference |
| 18:39 | johnb | I can maybe answer some general concepts about lc subject headings |
| 18:40 | kados | k ... but my questions may or may not be general in nature :-) |
| 18:40 | johnb | Kados: Most people would not know the difference between copr. and personal, librarians would though |
| 18:41 | thd | johnb: do you have an authoritative source for the preferred sequence of every subject subdivision? |
| 18:41 | kados | The overarching question is how to properly represent subjects from a MARC record in a hierarchy |
| 18:41 | johnb | Kados: Yes |
| 18:41 | Kados: But you won't like it | |
| 18:41 | kados | hehe |
| 18:41 | bring it on :-) | |
| 18:42 | thd | johnb: what is not to like? |
| 18:42 | johnb | Kados: There is a book called LC subject headings based on tapes from LC in verified status |
| 18:43 | Kados: you can either read the books (4 volumes) or but the tapes | |
| 18:43 | kados | hehe |
| 18:43 | johnb | Kados: I mean buy the tapes |
| 18:43 | thd | kados: does the introduction give a preferred order for the subdivisions |
| 18:44 | johnb | kados: Yes |
| 18:44 | kados | but order is only one aspect |
| 18:44 | johnb | Kados: you prob. wan the order, right? |
| 18:44 | thd | johnb: the records are sent via FTP now |
| 18:45 | kados | unless the tree is not more than one level deep |
| 18:45 | johnb | <thd> Yeah you can get them ftp but they still cost $$$$$ |
| 18:45 | thd | johnb: do not get them direct from LC |
| 18:45 | johnb: I assume that you do not have a subscription | |
| 18:46 | johnb: if you know someone who wants to share they are legally in the public domain but a records supplier may have supplied a contractual restriction with the records | |
| 18:47 | johnb | <thd> no, we are a poor rural library |
| 18:48 | Kados: I don't know anyone off the top of my head at the moment, but let me make a few phone calls on Monday | |
| 18:48 | thd | johnb: you paid for the creation of the records when you paid your taxes |
| 18:48 | kados | thd: actually, that's not entirely true |
| 18:48 | thd: LC doesn't use tax money to create subject authorities | |
| 18:48 | thd: they use money they receive in subscriptions | |
| 18:48 | thd: or so I'm told | |
| 18:49 | thd | kados: really, but that would be contrary to law I think |
| 18:49 | kados | dunno ... not an expert in the laws governing LC |
| 18:50 | thd | kados: the subscriptions are only supposed to pay for the cost of maintaining the dissemination service. |
| 18:51 | kados | hehe |
| 18:51 | johnb | Kados here is an interesting quote "In 1974 the principle of free-floating subdivisions controlled by patern headings was officially incorporated" |
| 18:51 | kados | hmmm ... |
| 18:51 | what are pattern headings? | |
| 18:51 | thd | kados: I have no good conception of how much money they receive from subscriptions but my suspicion is that it is not nearly enough for the cost of creation |
| 18:52 | kados: a pattern is one like what I cited from Chan | |
| 18:52 | kados | thd: $z Place or Geographic -- $x Topic -- $y Time or Period -- $v Form? |
| 18:53 | thd | kados: you are actually supposed to be able to make an English sentence out of these now |
| 18:53 | yes | |
| 18:53 | kados | so that implies that there are a limited set of patterns? |
| 18:53 | johnb | Kados: We need to get our hands on "Subject Cataloging Manual: Subject headings" |
| 18:54 | thd | kados: well my citation is only for the most common pattens |
| 18:54 | johnb | Kados: general rule is that you start with a subject heading and then use the subdivisions |
| 18:55 | thd | johnb: is there a preferred order given for the subdivisions |
| 18:55 | johnb | kados: four types of subs:Topical, Chronological, Geographic, Form |
| 18:57 | thd | john what is the preference shown in some reference for the order of those |
| 18:57 | johnb | Kados: I am reading give me a sec |
| 18:57 | kados | k |
| 19:00 | johnb | Kados: You'll love this answer |
| 19:00 | Kados: It depends on what is allowed in that particular subject heading | |
| 19:01 | kados | hehe |
| 19:01 | what the heck does that even mean? :-) | |
| 19:02 | johnb | Kados: Well if you look up the subject heading "architecture, gothic" in italics it says that (May Subd Geog) |
| 19:03 | thd | kados: that was the non-answer given in Using Subject Headings for Online Retrieval |
| 19:04 | johnb | Kados: I am going to go down stairs and see if I can find the subject manual |
| 19:04 | kados | johnb: May Subd Geog means something? |
| 19:04 | thd | johnb: do you hide the manual? :0 |
| 19:05 | kados | but so far I have'nt seen evidence of that :-) |
| 19:06 | johnb | Kados: It is an instruction it means in english "may subdivie by geography |
| 19:07 | kados | johnb: you've got to be kidding me |
| 19:07 | johnb | Kados: subject headings our constructed for each book |
| 19:07 | kados | johnb: that's not machine readable! |
| 19:08 | thd | kados: there is a chapter in Using Subject Headings for Online Retrieval about the discrepancies between the machine readable authorities and the bibliographic file contents |
| 19:08 | johnb | Kados: oh, you want digital, librarians and or catalogers don't think like that |
| 19:08 | thd | kados: that was obvious was it not |
| 19:09 | kados: the example johnb gave was from the printed volumes and was not meant to be understandable by machines | |
| 19:11 | johnb | Kados: Not every word is a subject heading the manual will list a noun and then give the approrriate subject heading. |
| 19:13 | thd | kados: machine readable is here: http://authorities.loc.gov/cgi[…]2201154&PID=15442 |
| 19:13 | johnb | Kados: then once you have selected the main heading you could select a sub heading. |
| 19:13 | kados: the subheading are specific to each subject heading | |
| 19:14 | Kados: then you can use the subdivisions I have just mentioned | |
| 19:15 | kados: on the example there are no sub headings, look up corn | |
| 19:16 | Kados: under corn there are sub headings and su sub headings in a few cases | |
| 19:16 | thd | kados: 008/06 is i - Subdivided geographically--indirect |
| 19:17 | kados | johnb: corn where? |
| 19:18 | johnb | Kados: the subject heading "corn" |
| 19:18 | kados | johnb: at LOC? |
| 19:18 | johnb | Kado: in the printed manual there are three pages of sub headings for corn. |
| 19:19 | kados | johnb: the data I am working with at the moment doesn't have more than $a and $x in the 650 entries for corn |
| 19:19 | ahhhh! | |
| 19:19 | but ... | |
| 19:19 | so ... | |
| 19:19 | johnb | Kados: some of those sub headings allows a further sub heading |
| 19:19 | kados | are those authorities for subject headings? |
| 19:20 | johnb: what I have in my data is: | |
| 19:20 | 650 | |
| 19:20 | $a Corn | |
| 19:20 | $x Fiction | |
| 19:20 | thd | kados: actually repeated subdivisions are always subsidiary |
| 19:20 | johnb | Kados: Corn is the subject heading |
| 19:20 | kados | thd: subsidiary to which element? |
| 19:20 | thd | kados: we have at least three levels again |
| 19:21 | kados | is this FIFO? |
| 19:21 | johnb | Fiction is the subdivision |
| 19:21 | thd | kados: to the previous subdivision which has been repeated |
| 19:22 | kados | thd: so it's like: |
| 19:22 | johnb | Kados you can have multiple subdivisions, that is allowed |
| 19:22 | kados | $a |
| 19:22 | $x | |
| 19:22 | $x | |
| 19:22 | ? | |
| 19:22 | thd | kados: yes |
| 19:22 | kados | thd: that could nest indefinitely |
| 19:23 | thd | kados: not in the real world but theoretically |
| 19:23 | kados | thd: what made you come to that conclusion? |
| 19:23 | johnb | Kados: what stuff developed in the 19th century is outmoded? |
| 19:23 | thd | kados: I always knew that but had forgotten in the past few minutes |
| 19:23 | kados: it is certainly true for every example that I know | |
| 19:24 | johnb | Kados: Have we answered your question? |
| 19:24 | thd | kados: consider $z Illinois $z Chicago |
| 19:24 | kados | thd: so ... $a Architecture -- $z Illinois -- $z Chicago $x History $v Pictorial works. |
| 19:24 | johnb | kados: that is correct the general rule is you go from general to specific |
| 19:25 | kados | so for the above subject |
| 19:25 | thd | johnb: there is nothing specific about putting $x before or after $z |
| 19:25 | kados | is this the proper nesting?: |
| 19:25 | $a Architecture | |
| 19:25 | $z Illinois | |
| 19:25 | $z Chicago | |
| 19:25 | $x History | |
| 19:25 | $v Pictorial works. | |
| 19:26 | johnb | Kados: I was talking about the subdivision words not the marc stuff |
| 19:26 | kados | or this: |
| 19:26 | $a Architecture | |
| 19:26 | $z Illinois | |
| 19:26 | $z Chicago | |
| 19:26 | $x History | |
| 19:26 | $v Pictorial works. | |
| 19:26 | and if $v came after $z would it be nested as well? | |
| 19:26 | johnb | Kados: You can do it in different ways depending on what the cataloger drank for lunch |
| 19:26 | kados | hehe |
| 19:27 | I don't get how I'm supposed to know which elements 'belong' to other elements and which are in parallel | |
| 19:27 | thd | johnb: the sequence seems almost wholly arbitrary apart form the repeated subdivisions mostly and certainly not a principled English sentence. |
| 19:28 | johnb | Kados: from what I can see your first solution is the way I would do it |
| 19:29 | thd | kados: I think that cataloguing principles are supposed to treat Place--Topic--Time--Form as parallels |
| 19:29 | johnb | Kados: If you ask 10 catalogers to create subject headings for the same book you would get 10 different results |
| 19:30 | thd | johnb: what you state is true of actual practise. Yet, best practise is another question. |
| 19:31 | kados | johnb: what I'm mainly interested in here is how the designers of the standards wanted it to be done |
| 19:31 | johnb: I realize in practice almost noone follows their design | |
| 19:31 | thd | johnb: I understand that best practise is not one choice only which is why machine readability is such a problem |
| 19:31 | kados | johnb: but it's at least useful to start with an understanding of that |
| 19:31 | johnb | Kados; The order is subject heading, sub heading, (there can be multiple sub headings) then the subdivisions |
| 19:32 | Kados: To answer the question we need the Manual | |
| 19:33 | thd | johnb: what is the subheading as you just described, distinct from the subdivisions? |
| 19:33 | kados: all the manuals are in Cataloguer's Desktop | |
| 19:35 | kados | thd but I think Place -- Topic -- Time -- Form are actually 651 -- 650 -- 655 (not sure about time) |
| 19:35 | thd | kados: just to add to the fun from the concise authorities manual for 008/06 there is a suggestion about the subdivision |
| 19:35 | * d - Subdivided geographically--direct | |
| 19:35 | The heading may be followed immediately by the name of the specific place to which it is limited without the interposition of a subdivision for the larger geographic entity. | |
| 19:35 | * i - Subdivided geographically--indirect | |
| 19:35 | The name of the larger geographic entity is interposed between the heading and the subdivision for the specific place to which the heading is limited. | |
| 19:36 | kados: time is 648 | |
| 19:36 | kados | there ya go :-) |
| 19:36 | johnb | Kados: some headings allow further specific subheadings corn - anatomy |
| 19:37 | kados | johnb: wouldn't 'anatomy' in that case be a subdivision? |
| 19:37 | johnb | Kados: I am looking it up on my system to see how it looks\ |
| 19:38 | thd | kados: but all those are repeated as subdivisions within each subject so we can have very complete subjects no matter what whether type of subject was specified for $a |
| 19:39 | kados | i guess I dont' understand why we have the 6XX fields ... and then within each we seem to reproduce what they already provide |
| 19:42 | thd | kados: because we want to give the heading or most important part first in $a |
| 19:42 | kados: $a is not equal to the others | |
| 19:44 | kados | thd: do each of the LC's subjects correspond with a classification code? |
| 19:44 | thd | kados: yet no single type of subject is more important except if it is given first for a particular record or the cataloguer has bothered to use the importance indicator |
| 19:45 | kados: now you are asking the good questions | |
| 19:45 | johnb | Kados: Ok i just look up cats on my system |
| 19:45 | thd | kados: about one third of them do |
| 19:45 | johnb | Kados: cats has a sub heading in the lc print manual under health |
| 19:46 | thd | kados: keep thinking about that and you will soon know many secrets |
| 19:46 | johnb | Kados: my system handled as _x health |
| 19:47 | thd: To answer your question, yes and no | |
| 19:48 | thd | johnb: were you answering this question? what is the subheading as you just described, distinct from the subdivisions? |
| 19:49 | johnb | Some headings have allowable subheadings that are specified in the LC subject headings. |
| 19:50 | kados | johnb: I'm less interested in what the allowable subjeadings are and more interested in where they are and how they should be represented in a hierarchy |
| 19:51 | thd | johnb: do the subheadings go in $a with some punctuation separating them from the heading? |
| 19:51 | johnb | Kados: The usual rule is start with the subj heading then the sub headings if any then the subdivisions |
| 19:52 | Kados: in my system it looks like the subheadings are listed as _x | |
| 19:52 | thd | johnb: do you have examples of subheadings? |
| 19:52 | kados | johnb: what are subdivisions if not $x? |
| 19:52 | johnb | Kados: I have got a full book of them |
| 19:52 | Kados: give me something from a to c and I can cross reference | |
| 19:53 | kados | johnb: in my reference, $x is listed as 'General subdivision' |
| 19:53 | $v is Form subdivision | |
| 19:53 | $z is Geographic subdivision | |
| 19:53 | so they are all subdivisions | |
| 19:53 | I think | |
| 19:54 | thd | johnb: we have an examples from LC showing $x following $z |
| 19:54 | johnb | Kados: according to LC they are called subject subdivisions |
| 19:54 | Kados: According to LC terminlology the order is | |
| 19:56 | kados: Headings, subject subdivisions (specific to the headings), then the four categorical subdivisions (non-specific to the heading) | |
| 19:57 | kados | johnb: so that would be: |
| 19:57 | $a | |
| 19:57 | $x | |
| 19:57 | thd | johnb: how does one determine what is specific and non-specific to the heading |
| 19:57 | kados | $y |
| 19:57 | thd | ? |
| 19:58 | johnb | kados: The only way is to compare it with the authority file |
| 19:59 | kados | bummer, since we don't have access to authorities in many cases |
| 19:59 | thd | johnb: I think I have an answer for my own question |
| 19:59 | johnb | Kados: Sorry I guess I am not explaining it well |
| 19:59 | First there is a heading | |
| 20:00 | Then, in some case, actually not very offten LC creates subdivisions under that heading | |
| 20:00 | Kados: these subheadings are specific only to that heading | |
| 20:01 | thd | johnb: a subdivision specific to the heading would be $x specific to 650, $z specific to 651, etc. |
| 20:02 | johnb | Kados: each line is it own subject heading there is no sharing between the subject heading lines |
| 20:02 | thd | johnb: yet we find that in the case of $z geographic subdivisions specified in 008/06 in the authority record for there may be a difference for that particular heading. |
| 20:03 | johnb | Kados: yes because the catloger is authorized to create whatever entry he/she thinks is approriate |
| 20:04 | thd | johnb: from what manual does you specific and non-specific subdivisions reference originate. |
| 20:05 | johnb | thd: Library of congress; subject headings |
| 20:05 | thd | johnb: I want the system to create everything for the cataloguer |
| 20:05 | johnb | thd: the catalogers will just change it |
| 20:05 | thd | johnb: do you mean the introduction to the printed manual of LCSH? |
| 20:07 | johnb | thd: well I am using the first volume including the Introduction, and the subject heading lists from a to c |
| 20:07 | thd | johnb: the cataloguers should be having fun reading the books |
| 20:08 | johnb | thd: most cataloging in public libraries is just copied from MARC record provided by a vendor |
| 20:08 | thd | johnb: I used to have two copies of that manual but my room is too small so I do not have ready access to either copy. |
| 20:09 | johnb | thd: well when I went to Library School there was only two vol. now there are four! |
| 20:10 | Kados: Is there anything else I can do for you tonight! | |
| 20:10 | thd | johnb: yes, copy cataloguing is the way to go unless the only records to coy from are ones which were not created correctly or none. |
| 20:10 | johnb | Kados: maybe redesign subject headings so they 1 make sennse 2 are machine readable |
| 20:11 | thd: most librarians just set aside a book and wait for somebody else to catalog it! | |
| 20:11 | thd | johnb: they are much more machine readable than when the printed manual was only two volumes |
| 20:11 | kados | http://kados.org/hierarchy.txt |
| 20:11 | so which is it in that list? | |
| 20:12 | thd | johnb: that is what I did at my bookshop |
| 20:13 | kados: I vote for number two | |
| 20:14 | kados | johnb: ? |
| 20:14 | johnb | Kados: I beleive number 2 is the best |
| 20:17 | Kados: beleive it or not not one of the sub headings is listed under architecture history should be Historiography | |
| 20:17 | kados | johnb: I got this record from LOC :-) |
| 20:18 | johnb | Kados: Welcome to the wonderful world of cataloging |
| 20:18 | kados | hehe |
| 20:19 | johnb | Kados: You also have to remember that there is alot of aold cataloging out there that follows older rules and standards |
| 20:19 | Kados: i still like the second solution, seems easy to read and makes sense | |
| 20:20 | thd | johnb: OCLC has a huge project to fix that in their records |
| 20:20 | johnb | thd: they have been changing the rules since Thomas jefferson sold his collection. |
| 20:21 | kados | hehe |
| 20:21 | johnb | thd: library catalogs are living entites that are never never completly standardized to the rules. |
| 20:22 | thd | johnb: one day the machines will revolt against the living and put everything in good order |
| 20:23 | johnb | hey guys its been fun but they are starting to shoot motars my way (fireworks) got a get out of here before the building catches on fire. |
| 20:24 | kados | johnb_away: thx for the help |
| 20:24 | thd | johnb_away: library catalogues are supposed to enable people to find things. Between rules changes, changes in headings, and cataloguer differences: finding things is much less reliable than it ought to be |
| 20:28 | kados: did you understand the difference between heading specific and non-specific subdivisions and the one exception for subfield sequencing? | |
| 20:28 | kados | no |
| 20:28 | please expound on it :-) | |
| 20:31 | thd | kados: so if you have topical subject 650 $a will always be followed by topical subdivision $x, if present; unless the 008/06 from the authority record for that heading allows $z to come between them |
| 20:34 | kados: similarly, chronological subject 648 $a would have chronological subdivision $y just after, if present; unless 008/06 allowed $z to come between | |
| 20:35 | kados: the issue is moot for geographic subjects 651 where is does not matter if $z comes between $z or not | |
| 20:38 | kados: I am not certain how this would apply to genre/form subjects 655 but they tend not to have subdivisions in practise | |
| 20:39 | kados: is that clear? | |
| 21:11 | kados: I am back so was that clear? | |
| 21:11 | kados | thd: not entirely |
| 21:11 | thd: we need a complete specification before I rewrite anything :-) | |
| 21:12 | thd: because I don't want to code this twice :-) | |
| 21:14 | thd | kados: what this means is that the sequence of subject subdivisions is changeable and cannot be known correctly except by reading the record and hoping it was correctly sequenced in the absence of authority records. |
| 21:16 | kados: I can try to check the Chan book and some other manuals tomorrow if the guard will honour my pass at the local library school | |
| 21:17 | kados: otherwise this is another case where you need a subscription to Cataloguers Desktop | |
| 21:18 | kados | :-) |
| 21:19 | well the short answer is I think I can figure out how to get a 'good enough' system together | |
| 21:19 | thd | kados: otherwise I can ask on the autocat list, but I would always heck the best references that i can find before asking there. |
| 21:19 | kados | but like all things, we should keep it in the back of our minds what the ideal system would be capable of |
| 21:19 | asking on autocat might not be a bad idea | |
| 21:19 | I've thought about that myself | |
| 21:19 | though I'm not sure I'd be comfortable posting a link to Koha just yet | |
| 21:20 | it needs to be prettier first | |
| 21:20 | and I'm not sure how to acomplish that | |
| 21:20 | thd | kados: I have already asked questions with the explanation there that Koha wanted to know |
| 21:22 | kados: was Katipo not going to make some very pretty templates for 3.0? | |
| 21:23 | kados | so I hear |
| 21:23 | but I mean really pretty :-) | |
| 21:23 | I think to do that we're going to go outside our current community | |
| 21:24 | thd | kados: well really pretty needs image maps and other things which really slows down page loads |
| 21:26 | kados: I am still using the ugly websafe colour palate |
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