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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:19 | kados | sheesh |
| 12:19 | phone ringing off the hook | |
| 12:19 | owen: ok, I'm back :-) | |
| 12:20 | so ... where shall we start? | |
| 12:21 | owen | Yesterday as far as we got was, "needs to fit 800x600" monitor |
| 12:22 | kados | right |
| 12:22 | so as far as the OPAC goes ... | |
| 12:22 | the 800 x 600 thing | |
| 12:23 | anything else? | |
| 12:23 | the faceted searches we're going to skip I think, right? | |
| 12:23 | owen | Was that issue with the search form or the results? |
| 12:23 | kados | the search form I think |
| 12:23 | owen | Both look okay to me |
| 12:23 | Only the simple search is a little squeezed, but that's just the big form field. | |
| 12:24 | kados | I'll send you a screenshot |
| 12:26 | owen: check your inbox | |
| 12:28 | owen | I think yes to skipping the faceted searches, in the interests of time |
| 12:30 | Wow, kados, that's remarkably different than Firefox's rendering. | |
| 12:31 | kados | owen: that _is_ firefox :-) |
| 12:31 | owen: it looked the same way on the circ computer at the plains | |
| 12:31 | owen: which I assume is win98 or 2000 | |
| 12:32 | owen | Just have to resize the form field a little |
| 12:33 | kados | so ... |
| 12:33 | as far as maintenance goes, are you using a fresh copy of the dev-week code? | |
| 12:33 | cuz that's what's up on zoomopac | |
| 12:34 | (do you need write access to more than just the template files? | |
| 12:34 | (to upload changes? | |
| 12:34 | owen | I don't know |
| 12:34 | kados | ok, well now you've got access to the koha-tmpl dir |
| 12:35 | let me know if you need more | |
| 12:40 | http://zoomopac.liblime.com/cg[…]tail.pl?bib=49201 | |
| 12:40 | I suspect these are triple or even quadrupal encoded | |
| 12:41 | marc8->latin1->latin1->latin1 :) | |
| 12:52 | owen | Did you see the issues with "you did not specify any search criteria" with sorted search results? |
| 12:53 | kados | yea |
| 12:53 | I think that's fixed in devweek | |
| 12:53 | but if not I'll certainly have a look | |
| 12:54 | (not that interesting to you :-) | |
| 12:58 | thd: 1106 is fixed | |
| 12:59 | thd | kados: is the fix committed or where can I test the fix |
| 12:59 | kados | thd: afognak has the fix |
| 12:59 | thd: and it's commited | |
| 12:59 | thd | goody |
| 13:06 | kados: works nicely now | |
| 13:06 | kados | thd: great! |
| 13:06 | thd | kados: where is the working editor code if it is not in devel-week? |
| 13:07 | kados: only on the Liblime server? | |
| 13:08 | kados | thd: it is now working in dev-week and rel_2_2 afaik |
| 13:08 | thd: dev-week for sure | |
| 13:09 | thd | kados: you have updated devel-week since it was not working yesterday? |
| 13:09 | kados | thd: yes |
| 13:09 | thd: dev-week is now completely in sync with rel_2_2 except without the MARC editor bugs :-) | |
| 13:10 | thd: didn't you see the 40+ commits this morning? :-) | |
| 13:10 | thd | kados: I had to avoid overfilling an email quota with commits so I do not see them in real time. |
| 13:11 | kados | ahh |
| 13:13 | thd | kados: I would need to have much more time than I have to fix my local mail system again to solve that quota problem |
| 13:14 | kados: what Koha SQL columns need linking to the bibliographic framework for 2.2.4? | |
| 13:15 | kados | ? |
| 13:15 | thd | kados: did you link only 2 yesterday |
| 13:15 | ? | |
| 13:15 | kados | linking? |
| 13:16 | thd | kados: items.onloan etc linked to 952 $X? |
| 13:17 | kados | ahh |
| 13:18 | yes, that's the only one | |
| 13:18 | thd: I could use your advice on a good mapping scheme | |
| 13:18 | thd | kados: did you not need another for date? |
| 13:18 | kados | date is in issues, not in items |
| 13:19 | thd | kados: I thought you added date because things were not working. Not that they worked afterwards. |
| 13:20 | kados: what do you want to map in a good mapping scheme? | |
| 13:20 | kados | well ... |
| 13:20 | thd: items fields mainly | |
| 13:21 | thd: we need to come up with a scheme for call number | |
| 13:21 | thd: that may include adding a column to items (fine by me) | |
| 13:21 | thd: all of the statuses need to be mapped | |
| 13:21 | things like datelastborrowed would be useful too | |
| 13:22 | datelastseen, etc. | |
| 13:22 | the more we can store in zebra the better | |
| 13:22 | because then we can search on it | |
| 13:22 | thd | kados: what are all of the statuses? |
| 13:22 | kados: how many are they? | |
| 13:22 | kados | notforloan, itemlost, wthdrawn,binding I think |
| 13:23 | thd: we also need to clean up the descriptive language of the item labels | |
| 13:23 | thd: so that a librarian is not confused :-) | |
| 13:23 | thd | kados: those are already mapped except for binding |
| 13:23 | kados | paidfor |
| 13:23 | another status | |
| 13:24 | thd | kados: the descriptions were written to not confuse me :) |
| 13:24 | kados | :-) |
| 13:24 | yes, I understand that | |
| 13:25 | thd | kados: do you think that we might run out of punctuation symbols? |
| 13:25 | kados | thd: also, barcode should not be a mandatory field |
| 13:25 | thd: but I agree we need a method to alert if a field hasn't been filled in but let the cataloger proceed | |
| 13:25 | thd | kados: I never set it to mandatory except by request |
| 13:26 | kados | thd: it's set to mandatory in the framework I believe |
| 13:26 | thd | kados: I think that had been your request at one time |
| 13:28 | kados | perhaps :-) |
| 13:30 | thd | kados: I have code for filling the various call number parts for use in labels etc. |
| 13:30 | kados | in perl? |
| 13:31 | thd | yes |
| 13:32 | kados: however, there is no code for what we had discussed previously for the case where NPL needs a couple of system preferences for treating fiction differently etc. | |
| 13:34 | kados | well ... not necessarily |
| 13:34 | it can be achieved with minimal coding | |
| 13:34 | if we distinguish between classification and call number | |
| 13:34 | and local call number | |
| 13:35 | and define local call number as either classification or call number depending on whether it's fiction or non-fiction | |
| 13:37 | thd | kados: to remind you we need a preference for call number type LCC, DDC, UDC, etc. and a preference for cutter type and rule and a preference for secondary classification defined by an exception list such as material type specifying fiction. |
| 13:39 | kados | hmmm |
| 13:39 | thd | kados: mere classification is unknown because there are many different classifications and MARC never has one and only one place to hide a given classification. |
| 13:39 | kados | couldn't we just define it in the framework instead of a preference? |
| 13:40 | thd | kados: define what in the framework? |
| 13:41 | kados | thd: define the type of classification being used |
| 13:41 | thd | kados: we could add a column to the framework to specify which locations are good for identifying particular parts of a call number. |
| 13:42 | kados | thd: ie, the mappings would define it for us |
| 13:43 | thd | kados: the type of classification that a library is using is up to the library and cannot be defined for all libraries |
| 13:44 | kados | thd: what I mean is that each library will have to define that part of their framework |
| 13:44 | thd | kados: the bibliographic framework should not be the place to define whether the library prefers DDC, UDC, LCC, etc. should it. |
| 13:44 | kados | hmmm |
| 13:45 | so what is our objective? | |
| 13:45 | thd | kados: you could define the standard locations in advance but they are multiple |
| 13:45 | kados | to search and display call numbers correctly right? |
| 13:45 | do we need to distinguish between call numbers and classification? | |
| 13:46 | thd | kados: the objective is to fill the call number by the library's preference |
| 13:46 | kados | thd: fill it with values coming from the MARC? |
| 13:46 | thd: because with zebra, we don't need it to be in the koha tables to search or display it | |
| 13:46 | thd | kados: call numbers are numbers of which the classification element is only one part |
| 13:47 | kados | thd: the only reason for it to be in the koha tables with zebra is if it is used by the system in managing the collection somehow (like circ rules) |
| 13:47 | (or inventory) | |
| 13:48 | thd | kados: it does not need to be in the SQL tables |
| 13:50 | kados: MARC has provided 852 $k $h $i $m | |
| 13:51 | kados | thd: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]rchingdefinitions |
| 13:51 | thd | kados: I provided all those in 952 in the framework |
| 13:51 | kados | thd: this is a document I wrote for NPL to help them clearly define their cataloging practices |
| 13:51 | thd: I think it would also be useful in this case | |
| 13:52 | thd: the 'organization of materials' section is most relevant | |
| 13:52 | thd: I could use some expansion on what I've written to more accurately describe the components of collection organization | |
| 13:56 | thd | kados: it seems as if they are using 942$c for the equivalent of $852 $k call number prefix |
| 13:57 | kados | thd: that is my mistake |
| 13:57 | thd: it should read 952$c | |
| 13:58 | fixed | |
| 14:01 | thd | kados: do they have the values in 952 $c on their spine labels? |
| 14:04 | kados | yes |
| 14:04 | owen: right? | |
| 14:04 | owen | Sorry, what? What's 952 $c? |
| 14:04 | thd | kados: then they are using that for 852 $k |
| 14:06 | owen: the MARC location defined in the framework used originally by NPL to store the contents of `items.location` | |
| 14:07 | owen | Our current production database doesn't store anything in items.location. |
| 14:08 | thd | kados: I think that you had it correct previously it was 942 $c |
| 14:09 | owen: do the item type codes that you use appear on the spine labels? | |
| 14:10 | owen | Yes |
| 14:10 | thd | kados: you were correct originally you should revert to the previous version in the wiki |
| 14:11 | kados | right |
| 14:11 | owen | biblioitems.itemtype |
| 14:13 | thd | owen kados: NPL uses biblioitems.itemtype stored in 942 $c as the equivalent of 852 $k |
| 14:13 | kados | right |
| 14:13 | thd | kados: all our libraries do the same as far as I know |
| 14:14 | s/our/your/ | |
| 14:15 | kados | yep |
| 14:15 | but 942 $c is not where the spine labels are printed from | |
| 14:15 | afaik the spine labels are coming from a value mapped to callnumber | |
| 14:15 | thd | kados: so you should fill 852 $o in the current standard MARC 21 framework with the contents of 942 $c |
| 14:16 | kados | but that's the itemtype |
| 14:16 | not the call number | |
| 14:16 | thd | kados: I thought that NPL was not yet using Koha for spine labels |
| 14:16 | kados | they aren't |
| 14:16 | but they do generate spine labels | |
| 14:16 | from fields in the MARc | |
| 14:17 | thd | kados: yes but that is way in which NPL is using the itemtypes that it has defined |
| 14:18 | kados: 852 $k is usually something like JUV, REF, FIC, etc. at most libraries | |
| 14:19 | kados: those are item types of some sort but not a true material type | |
| 14:20 | kados | right |
| 14:20 | is there a standard that defines them somewhere? | |
| 14:21 | thd | kados: no just common practise |
| 14:21 | kados: material types have multiple standards | |
| 14:21 | kados | which turns out not to be very consistant :-) |
| 14:22 | thd | kados: amazing how far a little cultural conformism will go to address the same problem in the same manner |
| 14:24 | kados: oh you were saying it was not consistent. Each library has to apply the basic intent to its own needs. | |
| 14:25 | kados: yet English language usage provides FIC more usually as opposed to FICT, REF as opposed to REFE, etc. | |
| 14:26 | kados | :-) |
| 14:26 | thd | kados: and then there is the need to economise the space on the small spine label. |
| 14:27 | kados | right ... any suggestions on that? |
| 14:28 | thd | kados: the 852 $h $i tend to be more standard than 852 $k and $m which depends on how the library wants to organise its collection |
| 14:30 | kados: spine labels should be 852 $k $h $i $m with the addition of c. $t where $t > 1 . | |
| 14:32 | kados: in the current MARC 21 framework that is 952 $o $h $i $t | |
| 14:34 | kados: so 952 $o could be filled from the values contained in 942 $c for NPL. | |
| 14:37 | kados: 952 $h would come from either 082 $a, 092, 055 $a, or 852 $h depending on what was filled. | |
| 14:38 | kados: 055 and 852 should be tested for having the correct indicators or the correct number type when indicators were not set. | |
| 14:42 | kados: 952 $i would come from either 082 $b, 092, 055 $b, or 852 $i depending on what was filled except that libraries may have their own preferred cuttering scheme and the supplied item part of the number may not be unique in the library's own collection. | |
| 14:43 | kados: 952 $m is seldom used but would come from 852 $m only from previous records of the same library. | |
| 14:44 | kados: 952 $t would come from 852 $t only from previous records of the same library. | |
| 14:45 | kados | hmmm |
| 14:45 | that's a lot to parse | |
| 14:46 | it occurs to me to ask why we're trying to map 852 to 952 | |
| 14:46 | thd | kados: I already have most of the code for parsing that neatly written for you n Perl |
| 14:47 | kados | thd: but why do we need to parse it at all? |
| 14:47 | thd: with zebra? | |
| 14:48 | thd | kados: well one reason for continuing to use a Koha specific items field is that you have the data in the wrong locations in existing records |
| 14:48 | kados | thd: rebuildnonmarc can fix that up |
| 14:48 | thd: given a proper framework | |
| 14:49 | thd | kados: another reason would be that you do not have enough subfields for everything that you need to track in one field unless you use capital letters. |
| 14:50 | kados | capital letters-- |
| 14:50 | thd | kados: 852 $A $B etc. |
| 14:50 | kados | capital letters-- |
| 14:54 | thd: how many items do we need to track? | |
| 14:54 | thd: have you considered writing a 'standaard MARC holdings' framework? | |
| 14:54 | thd | kados: there are not enough lowercase letters and numbers and punctuation to hold all the predefined or reserved 852 subfields in addition to things that are not in 852 such as the things in 876-878 |
| 14:55 | kados | thd: I've been thinking it might be useful to separate the holdings definitions |
| 14:55 | thd: from the standard MARC framework | |
| 14:55 | thd: to make it easier for customization (ie, a smaller file) | |
| 14:56 | thd | kados: I did write a more standard MARC holdings framework in the recommendations comment within the standard MARC 21 framework |
| 14:56 | kados | ahh |
| 14:56 | thd: perhaps I'll just pull that out then | |
| 14:56 | thd: add the onloan stuff | |
| 14:56 | thd: does it include call number goodness? | |
| 14:58 | thd | kados: It cannot be really standard unless you change all the code that needs one and only one MARC field defined for holdings. |
| 14:59 | kados: my recommendation is just like what I had specified for 952 except that their is a greater alignment between MARC 21 subfield names and what I specified. | |
| 15:00 | kados | thd: I think we could create a holdings framework |
| 15:00 | thd: and link holdings records to bib records | |
| 15:01 | thd | kados: oh you mean really standard |
| 15:02 | kados: do you mean with multiple fields for the holdings instead of everything in one field? | |
| 15:02 | kados | thd: well ... for 2.4 I mean just 852 |
| 15:02 | thd: for 3.0 I mean a really standard one with multiple fields for holdings | |
| 15:04 | thd | kados: so 3.0 could work with the needed code changes but there is not enough room in 852 for everything needed unless you can use capital letters for the subfields |
| 15:06 | kados: would you change the data type as needed to allow capital letters for the subfields for 2.4. ? | |
| 15:07 | kados | thd: no |
| 15:07 | thd | kados: otherwise you would need to remove standard subfields from MARC 21 to use 852 |
| 15:07 | kados | thd: too many components rely on aA equivilence |
| 15:08 | thd: you mean that not all koha item fields map to standard 852? | |
| 15:08 | thd | kados: the best I have then is what I recommended for 85k in the framework comments with the addition of punctuation symbols for status etc. |
| 15:10 | kados: the problem is that they map to 852, 876-8 and a few others including one or two that are no part of standard MARC. | |
| 15:10 | kados | hmmm |
| 15:11 | thd | kados: which is why it had filled all th letters and numbers when you looked |
| 15:11 | kados | tumer is removing that limitation for 3.0 |
| 15:11 | right | |
| 15:13 | thd | kados: 876 has some additional medium or long term status indications, where purchased, for how much, replacement price etc. |
| 15:14 | kados: those are all mapped to existing Koha items columns and are not in 852 | |
| 15:17 | kados: 852 has a very few things which I did not map to 952 such as the address of the library | |
| 15:23 | kados: 952 as I defined it is basically 852 combined with 876-8 with a few minor additions and omissions. Obviously, the subfield names cannot match perfectly so I wrote the verbose librarian text to keep everything straight. | |
| 15:23 | by subfield names I mean $a $b etc. | |
| 15:25 | kados | thd: I don't think it matters if they are all mapped to 852 |
| 15:25 | I'm not sure what is preventing us now from being completely compliant with MARC Holdings | |
| 15:25 | other than a fully defined framework | |
| 15:27 | thd | kados: you have a fully defined framework but you do not have code allowing the use of more than one field for holdings. |
| 15:27 | kados | thd: code meaning the editor? |
| 15:27 | thd: what code is needed? | |
| 15:29 | thd | kados: wherever there is code that falls down when biblioitems.itemnumber is linked to multiple fields. |
| 15:29 | s/biblioitems/items/ | |
| 15:30 | kados | hmmm |
| 15:32 | thd | kados: because standard MARC needs 852 and 876-8 not just 852. |
| 15:33 | kados: you need to be able to distinguish between 852 $c shelving location and 876 $c cost | |
| 15:35 | kados | I see |
| 15:35 | thd | kados: Koha also needs to distinguish different types of cost which MARC stores yet again in other locations acquisitions cost from replacement cost |
| 15:36 | kados | Koha does too |
| 15:36 | cost and replacementcost | |
| 15:36 | ahh, but they aren't in 852 | |
| 15:36 | in standard MARC | |
| 15:36 | thd | kados: but Koha has them both in the items table |
| 15:36 | kados | but we aren't limited to using the items table now |
| 15:36 | thd | kados: nothing about acquisitions is in 852 |
| 15:37 | kados | I see no reason to map cost to items at all |
| 15:37 | thd | kados: do you not want to know what your items cost? |
| 15:37 | kados | thd: with zebra we can still see that data |
| 15:38 | thd: we are no longer limited to searching/seeing data in the koha tables | |
| 15:39 | thd | kados: yes exactly but if acquisitions cost is associated with an item and not only in SQL then you need it stored in MARC which means that you need more than one field. |
| 15:39 | for standard MARC 21. | |
| 15:40 | kados | thd: so I suppose we should create holdings based on more than one field |
| 15:41 | thd | kados: well you were proposing to do that for 3.0 not 2.4 a few minutes ago. |
| 15:43 | kados | thd: I didn't understand the issues fully |
| 15:44 | it's hard to decide what is best in this case | |
| 15:45 | thd | kados: do you have a good concept of how much work that would be to fix on top of encoding? |
| 15:47 | kados | thd: no |
| 15:47 | thd | kados: you had said that tumer was going to do that for 3.0 does tumer have an idea? |
| 15:48 | kados | thd: maybe |
| 15:48 | :-) | |
| 16:00 | thd | kados: some problems are amazingly simple to solve if you look at them closely. |
| 16:01 | kados: other problems like encoding rely on external software libraries that you cannot have time to rewrite yourself if they do not work. | |
| 16:01 | kados: obviously, many uses of Encode::decode are needed for encoding where that can work. | |
| 16:01 | kados: Debian stable may be at a special disadvantage with the out of date MySQL libraries that do not understand UTF-8. | |
| 16:02 | kados: it was issues like that which drove me to switch to Debian testing much to my later regret. | |
| 16:02 | chris | thats what backports are for :) |
| 16:03 | thd | chris: is there a backport of MySQL for upgrading that library? |
| 16:03 | kados | thd: yes |
| 16:03 | thd: backports.org | |
| 16:03 | hey chris | |
| 16:03 | chris | morning |
| 16:03 | kados | chris: I'm ready to do a 2.3.0 release |
| 16:04 | chris: and I'd like to re-tag dev_week as rel_2_4 | |
| 16:04 | chris: if that's possible and you have time to show me how :-) | |
| 16:04 | chris | its pretty easy |
| 16:04 | easiest way | |
| 16:04 | dewey | easiest way is to try |
| 16:04 | chris | do a clean checkout of dev_week |
| 16:05 | thd | kados: what is 2.3 as distinct from 2.4? Isa it the unstable version of 2.4? |
| 16:05 | kados | thd: yes |
| 16:06 | thd | kados chris: at the time I switched to testing I could net get the updated applications I needed from backports. I should have been more patient. |
| 16:07 | chris | then cvs tag -b branchname |
| 16:07 | kados | can I then delete dev_week tag? |
| 16:07 | chris | nope, you cant delete tags |
| 16:07 | kados | ahh |
| 16:08 | chris | you'll just be branching a new branch at that point |
| 16:08 | thd | chris: what can be deleted in CVS? |
| 16:08 | chris | nothing, thats pretty much the point of version control |
| 16:08 | doesnt hurt kados | |
| 16:08 | kados | k |
| 16:08 | chris | you could just tag it |
| 16:09 | not branch .. but then youd still be working in the dev_week branch | |
| 16:09 | thats what the script taht creates the tarball does | |
| 16:09 | kados | hmmm |
| 16:09 | chris | tags up the files when you make a release |
| 16:09 | so at any point you can check out those files using that that tag | |
| 16:09 | depends on what you want to do | |
| 16:10 | kados | well ... |
| 16:10 | what I think I want | |
| 16:10 | is to have a branch that will become 2.4.0 | |
| 16:10 | I suppose I can just use dev_week for that | |
| 16:10 | chris | yep |
| 16:10 | kados | poorly named, but fine |
| 16:11 | ok, I"ll just do that then | |
| 16:11 | chris | thats what id do, and use the script to tag the files as 2.3.0 |
| 16:11 | kados | no sense making it more complicated |
| 16:11 | ok | |
| 16:11 | so when I run the script will it show up on savannah? | |
| 16:11 | chris | if you tell it to |
| 16:11 | kados | cool |
| 16:12 | chris | hmm did i commit my fixes to the script to dev_week? |
| 16:12 | lemme check | |
| 16:14 | looks like its all set up for savannah yep | |
| 16:14 | kados | sweet |
| 16:14 | chris | misc/buildrelease |
| 16:14 | kados | I'll give it a shot then |
| 16:16 | chris: any specific way I should run it? | |
| 16:16 | chris: and from a specific directory? | |
| 16:17 | chris | id run it from the base |
| 16:17 | in ./misc/buildrelease | |
| 16:17 | in= ie | |
| 16:17 | sorry prolly need | |
| 16:18 | perl misc/buildrelease | |
| 16:18 | kados | perl misc/buildrelease |
| 16:18 | yea | |
| 16:18 | ok | |
| 16:18 | chris | it should ask you |
| 16:18 | it makes a good guess | |
| 16:18 | so if you are in the base .. then the guess will be right | |
| 16:18 | (making sure you are in the dev week checkout of course :-)) | |
| 16:19 | kados | chris: should it be a fresh check out? |
| 16:19 | chris | doesnt have to be |
| 16:19 | but is probably safest | |
| 16:19 | kados | k |
| 16:20 | chris | hmm interesting synchronicity |
| 16:20 | http://www.bigballofwax.co.nz/[…]07/11/eclipse-ide | |
| 16:21 | kados | neat |
| 16:21 | nice new website chris :-) | |
| 16:21 | chris | id encourage you to take a look at eclipse sometime .. with the epic plugin |
| 16:21 | kados | will do |
| 16:22 | chris | the syntax highlighting, and completion ... plus cvs integration |
| 16:22 | make it pretty cool | |
| 16:22 | kados | cool |
| 16:22 | chris | ie you type " and it does the matching " |
| 16:22 | {} etc | |
| 16:22 | kados | sweet |
| 16:22 | chris | plus you type $ |
| 16:22 | and you get a list of variables you have already used | |
| 16:23 | so its really good writing new big chunks of code | |
| 16:23 | kados | Would you like to tag the CVS repository? |
| 16:23 | I'm guessing Y | |
| 16:23 | chris | yes |
| 16:23 | kados | well here it comes :-) |
| 16:23 | chris | kados: that blog is my first real play with ruby on rails |
| 16:24 | kados | cool |
| 16:24 | yea, I browsed some books at B&N last week about ruby | |
| 16:24 | ok, the tarbal is in my dir now | |
| 16:24 | is it also on savannah? | |
| 16:24 | chris | sweet |
| 16:24 | no | |
| 16:24 | its not that cool :-) | |
| 16:24 | kados | :-) |
| 16:24 | chris | you will have to go to savannah and do the release thingy |
| 16:25 | hmm lemme look | |
| 16:25 | i havent done a savannah one before | |
| 16:25 | but it should be similair to sourceforge | |
| 16:27 | hmm maybe not | |
| 16:27 | http://download.savannah.nongn[…]rg/releases/koha/ | |
| 16:27 | i think you just have to stick it in here, somehow | |
| 16:27 | kados | their searches suck |
| 16:28 | ahh | |
| 16:28 | chris | then write some release notes for the news bit |
| 16:28 | https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/koha/ | |
| 16:28 | for on that page | |
| 16:28 | kados | yea |
| 16:28 | I've done news before | |
| 16:28 | that's pretty simple | |
| 16:30 | chris | https://savannah.gnu.org/faq/?[…]o_I_add_files.txt |
| 16:30 | so we need a gpg key | |
| 16:30 | kados | k, I can handle that |
| 16:37 | chris | :) |
| 17:27 | is half an hour up yet? :-) | |
| 17:31 | kados | yea, it's uploaded |
| 17:31 | and I did a news item on it | |
| 17:31 | chris | excellent |
| 17:31 | kados | http://download.savannah.nongn[…]rg/releases/koha/ |
| 17:31 | russ | news item ? where? |
| 17:32 | chris | on savannah |
| 17:32 | kados | russ: probably not newsworthy in a general sense |
| 17:32 | chris | http://koha.org/download/ <-- should we write something here |
| 17:32 | to make sure ppl know that 2.3.0 is unstable | |
| 17:32 | kados | definitely |
| 17:32 | but I plan on doing 2.3.1 in a day or two | |
| 17:32 | so I'm not sure just how much news we want to generate :-) | |
| 17:32 | chris | otherwise they will click on the 2.2.5 link |
| 17:33 | kados | yea ... 2.2.5 is still good I think |
| 17:33 | chris | and see 2.3.0 sitting there |
| 17:33 | and grab it cos its newer | |
| 17:33 | kados | can't we just link directly to the download ? |
| 17:33 | russ | two minutes |
| 17:33 | kados | ie, not the file list? |
| 17:33 | chris | probably the best bet |
| 17:34 | kados | too bad you can't put text in the list |
| 17:34 | names and such like on sourceforge | |
| 17:34 | chris | yep |
| 17:35 | but then you also have to click 54 times to actually download the file | |
| 17:35 | kados | yea :-) |
| 17:35 | chris | i think linking to the file and having good text around the link is the way to go |
| 17:35 | kados | yea I agree |
| 17:35 | russ | kados - can we move those wiki notes into the en section? |
| 17:36 | kados | russ: sure |
| 17:36 | chris | ill have a go with 2.3 after work, on my koha at home |
| 17:36 | kados | russ: be my guest :-) |
| 17:36 | chris: I haven't touched the installation scripts yet | |
| 17:36 | chris: but I can send you a tarbal of my migration stuff | |
| 17:36 | chris | but if i follow your docs on the wiki it should work eh? |
| 17:36 | kados | yea |
| 17:36 | chris | ill have a go by hand first |
| 17:36 | kados | cool |
| 17:37 | chris | so i have an understanding, then ill try out the automatic way |
| 17:37 | kados | yep |
| 17:37 | it's no walk in the park :-) | |
| 17:37 | chris | :) |
| 17:37 | kados | and there are some hard-coded things still |
| 17:37 | that need to be moved to the config file | |
| 17:37 | chris | yep i figure ppl will be asking questions sooner or later |
| 17:37 | kados | yea |
| 17:40 | nothing like a release to make you feel like you've acomplished something in a day :-) | |
| 17:40 | even if I know it's not a stable release :-) | |
| 17:41 | chris | :-) |
| 17:53 | thd | kados: have you solved the problem of migrating a rel_2_2 installation with UTF-8 data? |
| 17:53 | kados | thd: not yet |
| 17:53 | thd: it's more a 'how to migrate from mysql 4.0 to 4.1' problem | |
| 17:53 | thd: for NPL it's hopeless | |
| 17:54 | thd: because they had marc-8 data that was interpreted as latin1 data and I think it's been completely mangled in some cases :-) | |
| 17:54 | thd | kados: so you did not worry about the issue for NPL because NPL had relatively little MARC 8 data? |
| 17:54 | kados | right |
| 17:55 | thd | kados: If you had a script that searched for encoding problems you could concentrate on upgrading those records. |
| 17:57 | kados | thd: I've got one |
| 17:57 | thd: it just needs to be updated a bit to deal with these specific probs | |
| 17:58 | thd | kados: really, would it also work for Afognak double encoding, and other similar problems that you have seen? |
| 17:58 | kados | yes, given enough time to troubleshoot |
| 18:00 | thd | kados: I think tumer has many records that he needs to find before his records including the problem ones become canonical for Turkey |
| 18:01 | kados: nothing like a new national authority file complete with encoding problems :) | |
| 18:02 | kados | :-) |
| 18:03 | that wouldn't bode well for Koha :-) | |
| 18:04 | thd | kados: no, having the national library of Turkey using Koha should be all to the good as long as the records can be shared without problems. |
| 18:06 | russ | philip you there? |
| 18:06 | thd | russ: I do not see philip logged in? |
| 18:07 | russ | oops wrong channel |
| 18:07 | :-) | |
| 18:16 | thd | kados: looking at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]tion_of_materials. Does NPL not have full call numbers in 952 $k? |
| 18:16 | kados | they do |
| 18:16 | thd | kados: also, I have noticed that you have been using the old WIKI namespace |
| 18:17 | kados: the new namespace from devweek has en for English | |
| 18:18 | kados | yea, russ is gonna fix that for me :-) |
| 18:18 | thd | kados: That way Pascal or whomever can make a French translation under /fr/ instead of /en/ |
| 18:18 | kados | yep |
| 18:19 | thd | kados: russ had been cleaning the whole thing so that you would not have made the mistake in the first place. |
| 18:19 | kados | :-) |
| 18:20 | thd | kados: pierrick had also been working on that but he is no longer participating :( |
| 18:22 | kados: if using multiple holdings fields is discovered to be too much work for 2.4 do you know of any problems using punctuation for subfields all in one items field? | |
| 18:25 | kados | thd: looking at the framework right now |
| 18:25 | thd: got some questions | |
| 18:25 | INSERT INTO `marc_subfield_structure` VALUES ('952', '2', 'Source of classification or shelving scheme (similar to 852 $2)', 'Source of classification or shelving scheme', 0, 0, '', 10, '', '', '', NULL, 0, '', '', ''); | |
| 18:25 | is that really necessary? | |
| 18:26 | some of these seem like they won't ever be used | |
| 18:26 | thd | kados: it is necessary for designating the call number for fiction in the case of NPL. |
| 18:26 | kados | how so? |
| 18:27 | (btw: items.wthdrawn not items.withdrawn ... a minor misspelling in the framework due to a poorly named column name) | |
| 18:28 | thd | kados: indicators are used to specify if the call number is LCC, DDC, NLM. or SUDOC, not that Koha is providing access to the 952 indicator currently. |
| 18:29 | kados: anything that uses some other classification is supposed to specify the classification in $2 | |
| 18:29 | kados | specify what about it? |
| 18:29 | the name of it? | |
| 18:29 | thd | kados: the classification code and version number |
| 18:30 | kados: kados has not seen nearly enough correctly encoded records | |
| 18:30 | kados | :-) |
| 18:31 | thd | kados: NPL's private scheme may not have a standard classification code but they can pretend if there is not one for generic local scheme |
| 18:31 | kados | they aren't really up to doing that :-) |
| 18:32 | and it doesn't really serve any purpose | |
| 18:32 | thd | kados: no of course not but you have the system do it for them |
| 18:32 | kados: it allows classification searches to use information in the records to do an intelligent search | |
| 18:33 | kados | ok so I'll call it NPL v1 |
| 18:33 | :-) | |
| 18:33 | thd: do you know NPL's MARC ORG code? | |
| 18:34 | thd | kados: no but classification codes in MARC 21 are all lower case |
| 18:34 | kados | thd: it's 'ONe' :-) |
| 18:34 | thd | kados: do you not have the code list bookmarked |
| 18:34 | kados | thd: 'ONe' :-) |
| 18:34 | thd: that's it ... pretty cool, eh? | |
| 18:35 | thd | kados: does LC do vanity classification codes for a special fee? :) |
| 18:35 | s/classification/organisation/ | |
| 18:39 | kados: the only thing that I remember having put in 952 that is not most likely to be useful is article '952', 's', 'Copyright article-fee code (similar to 018 $a, 852 $s)' | |
| 18:40 | kados: although WIPO might care very much about that | |
| 18:41 | kados: do you think they observe the rules they establish for everyone internally? | |
| 18:41 | kados | thd: so ... question |
| 18:41 | thd | yes |
| 18:42 | kados | if we created a full MARC authorities file |
| 18:42 | with MARC holdings | |
| 18:42 | 852, etc. | |
| 18:42 | how many fields would need to contain itemnumber? | |
| 18:43 | and could we acomplish the same thing with a link? | |
| 18:43 | ie, link the itemnumber field to a field elsewhere in the record | |
| 18:43 | thd | kados: changing the code to use a link would be more MARC like but may not be the most efficient |
| 18:44 | kados | with zebra I don't think it matters |
| 18:44 | in terms of searching we have no problem | |
| 18:44 | of course, display is not a problem either | |
| 18:44 | thd | kados: do you mean full MARC holdings file not full MARC authorities file |
| 18:44 | ? | |
| 18:45 | kados | correct |
| 18:46 | thd | kados: quite a few fields |
| 18:50 | kados: some are more important than others | |
| 19:04 | kados: perhaps about 25 fields | |
| 19:04 | kados ... | |
| 19:04 | 541 - IMMEDIATE SOURCE OF ACQUISITION NOTE (R) | |
| 19:04 | 561 - OWNERSHIP AND CUSTODIAL HISTORY (R) | |
| 19:04 | 562 - COPY AND VERSION IDENTIFICATION NOTE (R) | |
| 19:04 | 563 - BINDING INFORMATION (R) | |
| 19:04 | 583 - ACTION NOTE (R) | |
| 19:04 | 841 - HOLDINGS CODED DATA VALUES (NR) | |
| 19:04 | 842 - TEXTUAL PHYSICAL FORM DESIGNATOR (NR) | |
| 19:04 | 843 - REPRODUCTION NOTE (R) | |
| 19:04 | 844 - NAME OF UNIT (NR) | |
| 19:04 | 845 - TERMS GOVERNING USE AND REPRODUCTION NOTE (R) | |
| 19:04 | 850 - HOLDING INSTITUTION (R) | |
| 19:04 | 852 - LOCATION (R) | |
| 19:04 | 853 - CAPTIONS AND PATTERN--BASIC BIBLIOGRAPHIC UNIT (R) | |
| 19:05 | 854 - CAPTIONS AND PATTERN--SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL (R) | |
| 19:05 | 855 - CAPTIONS AND PATTERN--INDEXES (R) | |
| 19:05 | 856 - ELECTRONIC LOCATION AND ACCESS (R) | |
| 19:05 | 863 - ENUMERATION AND CHRONOLOGY--BASIC BIBLIOGRAPHIC UNIT (R) | |
| 19:05 | 864 - ENUMERATION AND CHRONOLOGY--SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL (R) | |
| 19:05 | 865 - ENUMERATION AND CHRONOLOGY--INDEXES (R) | |
| 19:05 | 866 - TEXTUAL HOLDINGS--BASIC BIBLIOGRAPHIC UNIT (R) | |
| 19:05 | 867 - TEXTUAL HOLDINGS--SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL (R) | |
| 19:05 | 868 - TEXTUAL HOLDINGS--INDEXES (R) | |
| 19:05 | 876 - ITEM INFORMATION--BASIC BIBLIOGRAPHIC UNIT (R) | |
| 19:05 | 877 - ITEM INFORMATION--SUPPLEMENTARY MATERIAL (R) | |
| 19:05 | 878 - ITEM INFORMATION--INDEXES (R) | |
| 19:06 | kados: do you think that would be enough? | |
| 19:07 | kados | enough for what? |
| 19:08 | thd | linking to items.itemnumber ? |
| 19:09 | kados | hmmm |
| 19:09 | we need to link all of those? | |
| 19:13 | thd | kados: the only scary ones are 853-855 and 863-868 |
| 19:14 | kados: 866-868 are not scary for humans, they are merely scary for computers. | |
| 19:34 | kados: you would not need to link specifically to 841 but the shiny forest in SQL would be much more efficient to parse for the scary cases. | |
| 19:36 | kados: I can present a simplified case for the only users that you can obtain now in any case | |
| 19:39 | kados: acquisitions would need 541, 583, and 876 that is just 3 fields with 877-8 for very special cases | |
| 19:43 | kados: cataloguing would need 852 or 856, and sometimes 863-868 | |
| 19:44 | tumer: is that really you? | |
| 19:44 | tumer | yep awake and zebraing |
| 19:45 | thd | tumer: kados had said that you were intending to eliminate the dependence that Koha had on using one and only one MARC field for holdings. |
| 19:45 | tumer | i already did |
| 19:45 | thd | for 3.0 |
| 19:46 | tumer | yep |
| 19:46 | thd | tumer: really? |
| 19:46 | dewey | really are quite different |
| 19:46 | thd | tumer: and it works? |
| 19:46 | tumer | yes i have separate marc record for holdings niw |
| 19:47 | thd: which field is best to hold the biblionumber in holdings record? | |
| 19:47 | thd | tumer: and do these separate holdings records use more than one of the holdings fields? |
| 19:48 | tumer | they have their own 001 005 007 852- to 999 all |
| 19:48 | a complete marc record | |
| 19:49 | any field to put anything in | |
| 19:49 | no restrictions | |
| 19:49 | well within reason | |
| 19:50 | if kados spares same space i will commit the whole lot to the cvs | |
| 19:50 | thd | tumer: well if you are doing something non-standard for Koha I like some field with a letter in it like 90k but I realise that may require some code change |
| 19:51 | tumer | i used to now i stick with standard LC nummbers |
| 19:52 | separate holdings,bibblios and authorities records you do not require fields with letters there is abundance of fields | |
| 19:52 | thd | tumer: well the standard place for the link number is 004 - CONTROL NUMBER FOR RELATED BIBLIOGRAPHIC RECORD |
| 19:53 | tumer | great thanks |
| 19:53 | thd | tumer: that would be the place for storing the 001 from the bibliographic record |
| 19:53 | tumer | i hope to get a full koha intranet working on this model by weekend |
| 19:54 | thd | tumer: are you no longer using SQL code for tracking the items? |
| 19:54 | tumer | i already have biblionumber in 001 in biblios itemnumber 001 in holdings |
| 19:55 | there is nothing in sql any more only blobs of marc records | |
| 19:55 | except issues and borrowers and subscript ofcourse | |
| 19:55 | thd | tumer: do you mean you are creating a separate holdings record for each item even if you have duplicate items for the same biblio? |
| 19:57 | tumer | yes because even a second copy is a different entity which has copy 2 in it |
| 19:57 | thd | tumer: do you have multiple copies of the same biblio in your library? |
| 19:58 | tumer | yes but all call numbers end with c1 c2 etc so they are different and unique |
| 19:58 | thd | tumer: you do not attempt to make use of the repeatable fields so that you have for example 852 $t1 and 852 $t for the first and second copies? |
| 19:59 | tumer: you do not attempt to make use of the repeatable fields so that you have for example 852 $t1 and 852 $t2 for the first and second copies? | |
| 19:59 | tumer | its easeier to manage them this way |
| 19:59 | thd | tumer: yes that is very evident |
| 19:59 | tumer | easier on indexing releases the starin on zebra |
| 20:00 | s/starin/strain | |
| 20:00 | thd | tumer: and there I was thinking about how to do it the most difficult way |
| 20:00 | kados: are you there? | |
| 20:04 | tumer: that is brilliant to have done it the way that is both easiest and most efficient | |
| 20:04 | tumer | well thanks i dont know whether correct but thats how i designed it |
| 20:05 | thd | tumer: that is perfectly in conformance with the standard which is the only important obstacle |
| 20:06 | tumer: I would like to persuade you to proceed with authorities in a standards compliant manner | |
| 20:07 | tumer | thd: i have to redesign authorities, the way they are now is not working |
| 20:07 | thd | tumer: It may be a little painful in the short run but you will be much happier if they interoperate well with other systems |
| 20:08 | tumer: what about them is not working? | |
| 20:08 | tumer | thats my intention |
| 20:08 | thd | tumer: specifically is not working? |
| 20:08 | tumer: what specifically is not working about authorities? | |
| 20:09 | tumer | all linking of authorities etc i have to study it a bit more |
| 20:09 | now we have thd producing some things i did some other all non complimenting each other | |
| 20:10 | the editor does not work with them either | |
| 20:10 | thd | tumer: the editor code was never fixed for authorities |
| 20:11 | tumer | i know |
| 20:11 | thd | tumer: the authorities editor code needs to be copied from the bibliographic editor code |
| 20:12 | tumer | yes but try to add a authors name to a bibliographic record from authorities. Its now a mess |
| 20:12 | thd | tumer: do you mean with encoding? |
| 20:12 | tumer | no |
| 20:13 | you try filling 700 it fills 690 | |
| 20:13 | all the java script messing it all up | |
| 20:13 | thd | tumer: ooooh that is bad |
| 20:13 | tumer | i reported a bug but in vain |
| 20:15 | thd | tumer: unfortunately, the only Koha libraries actually using authorities merely use the script designed to fill existing values in the bibliographic records into the database. |
| 20:16 | tumer | its not obvious untill you use subfield cloning -- the bug i mean |
| 20:17 | whats the use of creating authorities that you do not comply with? | |
| 20:17 | thd | tumer: those libraries are all using UNIMARC |
| 20:17 | tumer: they comply if they comply by using already compliant records. | |
| 20:19 | tumer | well its not good for me |
| 20:19 | we are creating 90% of our records | |
| 20:19 | thd | tumer: subdivided subjects will seem to need repeated $9s for most free floating subdivision $z $x $y $v |
| 20:20 | tumer | thd i am so far away from the subject, also they have to be freely ordered |
| 20:21 | thd | tumer: I suspect that having repeated $9 in the same way that BnF has repeated $3 for subject subdivisions is the only way to have a manageable authority file. |
| 20:22 | tumer | thd:ok |
| 20:22 | thd | tumer: repeatable $9 should allow for freely ordering the subfields |
| 20:23 | tumer: your library is translating LC authority files, is it not? | |
| 20:23 | tumer | but i dont even know whether we actually fill $x $y $z from differnt authorities or one record that has all fields in it |
| 20:24 | currently its hybrid. LC subject headings beung translated but no actual records | |
| 20:24 | thd | tumer: decades ago LC stopped creating authority records with all the subdivisions in the authorised form |
| 20:24 | for subject | |
| 20:25 | tumer | BnF do dont they? |
| 20:26 | thd | tumer: LC subject authority records only comprise about 13% of subject authority strings |
| 20:26 | 13% of subject bibliographic strings I mean | |
| 20:27 | tumer: BnF bends the UNMARC rule that specifies $3 as not repeatable for subject subdivisions | |
| 20:27 | tumer | thats a relief, I thought i was going to have them all like that in millions |
| 20:29 | thd | tumer: subject authority files would be millions of authorised forms if they had to be complete subject strings with all the subdivisions in one record |
| 20:30 | tumer: LC only has circa 125,000 authorised subject headings which can be used to build all the others. | |
| 20:31 | tumer | i am in more clear now |
| 20:31 | chris | is there authorities for other languages thd? |
| 20:31 | thd | yes it is very easy |
| 20:32 | chris: although tumer says there are none yet for Turkish so he must create them | |
| 20:32 | chris | right |
| 20:32 | im betting there are none for maori too | |
| 20:33 | which would be needed if the total emmersion schools were to use them | |
| 20:33 | immersion even | |
| 20:34 | maybe thats something the future foundation could do, help hold/build authority records for other languages | |
| 20:34 | thd | tumer chris: preserve the original LC record you may be translating into Turkish or Maori by giving the original heading in a 7XX linking field in the authority record |
| 20:35 | chris | ahh good idea |
| 20:36 | tumer | i give it in 750 |
| 20:36 | i even linked them so searching in one language brings the other as well | |
| 20:37 | but thats not standart i know | |
| 20:38 | thd | tumer: that is standard |
| 20:39 | chris: national libraries usually do that or some really large university library | |
| 20:39 | chris: although most counties lack authority records | |
| 20:41 | chris: authority records are found in Latin America even if under used but they are largely absent even in some relatively rich countries like Italy | |
| 20:42 | tumer: you have done it precisely correctly as long as you are not still using $6 to link outside the record | |
| 20:43 | $6 is for linking fields within the same record | |
| 20:44 | tumer | which subfield should it be 8? |
| 20:44 | thd | tumer: $8 is also for linking within the record |
| 20:44 | tumer | or a specific field? |
| 20:45 | as i say i know zilch about authorities | |
| 20:46 | thd | tumer: $0 is used for linking from the authority record to the original record although you should also preserve the original record control number in 035 |
| 20:47 | tumer: an example is 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh#85130430#$wna | |
| 20:48 | tumer: http://www.loc.gov/marc/author[…]link.html#mrca750 | |
| 20:49 | tumer | i will look into it |
| 20:49 | i have to check this zebra which is refusing to start | |
| 20:50 | thd | tumer: be careful not to be kicked from behind by your zebra |
| 21:41 | kados | Burgundavia: still waiting for that email :-) |
| 21:41 | Burgundavia: I'll hold you to your purpose :-) | |
| 21:41 | Burgundavia | kados: it is stuck in the loop of no time |
| 21:42 | kados | :-) |
| 21:42 | Burgundavia | I am about to run out to the local LUG meeting |
| 21:42 | kados | I hear you |
| 21:42 | cool | |
| 21:42 | Burgundavia | it is mostly written, just missing the mockup |
| 21:42 | kados | excellent |
| 21:42 | can't wait to read it | |
| 21:42 | I'll be working pretty much all week on 2.3.x | |
| 21:43 | Burgundavia | I just saw that annoucement |
| 21:43 | kados | so now would be a really great time to have the ideas/mockup |
| 21:43 | Burgundavia | what is policy on posting stuff to koha.org? |
| 21:43 | kados | posting what? |
| 21:43 | announcements? | |
| 21:43 | Burgundavia | yep |
| 21:43 | the new development announcement | |
| 21:44 | kados | do you mean to savannah? or koha-devel? or on the website koha.org? |
| 21:44 | well I'm the release manager | |
| 21:44 | so I can basically do anything :-) | |
| 21:44 | muhahaha | |
| 21:44 | if you have something you need announced you can generally send it to russ or someone | |
| 21:44 | Burgundavia | the website, in the little news box which has nothing in it |
| 21:44 | nothing new, that is | |
| 21:44 | kados | right |
| 21:45 | chris | yep, ppl have to tell us news, then we'll put it there |
| 21:45 | kados | well basically if someone has time to write something they submit it to russ |
| 21:45 | or someone | |
| 21:45 | the project is really loosely defined | |
| 21:45 | there are not that many core developers | |
| 21:45 | so we basically know what's going on :-) | |
| 21:46 | Burgundavia | indeed |
| 21:46 | kados | and news and stuff is loose as well |
| 21:46 | plus, koha.org is really just the project page ... | |
| 21:46 | chris | pretty much anything thats interesting or new, and someone tells us about can go up |
| 21:46 | Burgundavia | the start of a major new development cycle is pretty good news, I think |
| 21:46 | kados | the liblime team has enough trouble keeping our marketing website up to date :-) |
| 21:46 | Burgundavia | gets people all excited, reminds them the project is not dead |
| 21:46 | kados | yep |
| 21:47 | but it's really the tail end of the dev cycle | |
| 21:47 | chris | yep |
| 21:47 | kados | we've been working on this release for about two years now :-) |
| 21:47 | Burgundavia | 2.3? |
| 21:47 | kados | yea |
| 21:47 | Burgundavia | see, that is not how (as an outsider), interpreted your email |
| 21:47 | kados | right |
| 21:47 | chris | work leading up to 2.4 and 3.0 has been going on since 2.2.0 was released |
| 21:48 | kados | yea |
| 21:49 | chris | when 2.4 comes out there will be tons of fanfare on koha.org .. and on the main koha-devel list |
| 21:49 | Burgundavia | yep |
| 21:49 | kados | so 2.3.0 is basically where we've said "ok, stuff is actually working ... now lets test and bugfix, etc. and in a month or so, we'll have a stable product" |
| 21:49 | chris | but for now 2.3 is so bleeding edge we dont really want too many people trying it |
| 21:49 | cos their will be blood everywhere :-) | |
| 21:50 | Burgundavia | no, but you do want people to be excited about it existing |
| 21:50 | chris | there even |
| 21:50 | kados | yea, bleeding edge is key |
| 21:50 | chris | its hard to get them excited without them asking where is it, can i have it |
| 21:50 | kados | Burgundavia: not really, because the core developers don't even know how to install it :-) |
| 21:50 | Burgundavia | heh |
| 21:50 | chris | its a tricky one |
| 21:50 | kados | Burgundavia: only tumer and I have got it going so far :-) |
| 21:50 | chris | maybe in a week or so |
| 21:50 | kados | yea |
| 21:50 | Burgundavia | ok |
| 21:50 | chris | when we are at 2.3.2 ish |
| 21:50 | kados | yep |
| 21:51 | I'll do 2.3.1 tomorrow afternoon | |
| 21:51 | Burgundavia | just don't want to miss an opportunity to get us talked about |
| 21:51 | kados | already spotted some probs |
| 21:51 | also I want to get some public demos going | |
| 21:51 | so folks can try it out with real data | |
| 21:52 | Burgundavia: well, when you get to that email, I'm all eyes :-) | |
| 21:52 | Burgundavia | ok |
| 21:52 | chris | yep its true, more publicity would be good, but id hate to have ppl see it, and then try it out and say it sucks because they cant install it :-) |
| 21:52 | Burgundavia | too many projects, so little time |
| 21:53 | kados | heh |
| 21:53 | chris | but there are few new libraries running koha |
| 21:53 | Burgundavia | somewhere in there I also need to finish that edubuntu case study |
| 21:53 | chris | which we should do some news about |
| 21:54 | Burgundavia | chris: just to introduce myself, I am Corey Burger. I work for Userful in the day and volunteer with Ubuntu/Edubuntu at night |
| 21:54 | chris | ahhh ive seen your name around :) |
| 21:54 | Burgundavia | nothing bad I hope :) |
| 21:54 | chris | im Chris Cormack, i work for Katipo Communications in the day .. and some of the night too, and Koha all over the place |
| 21:54 | Burgundavia | cool |
| 21:55 | chris | trying to remember where ive seen it |
| 21:55 | Burgundavia | I am co-author on the Official Ubuntu Book? |
| 21:55 | chris | ahh |
| 21:55 | that'll be it | |
| 21:55 | planet ubuntu | |
| 21:56 | Burgundavia | ubuntu is everywhere |
| 21:56 | chris | yep |
| 21:57 | i met mark at linuxconf.au this year | |
| 21:57 | Burgundavia | ah yes |
| 21:57 | I was supposed to be at the Paris development conference, but it clashed with ALA in New Orleans, sadly | |
| 21:57 | chris | ahh yes |
| 21:57 | how was ALA? | |
| 21:57 | Burgundavia | big |
| 21:57 | chris | it sounded big |
| 21:58 | Burgundavia | a big, giant Windows world, with a few beacons of hope: our booth and Index Data's |
| 21:58 | chris | :-) |
| 21:58 | Burgundavia | our booth = Userful's |
| 21:58 | chris | right |
| 21:58 | i think liblime was sharing with index data? | |
| 21:59 | Burgundavia | had a laugh at SirsiDynix claiming to built on "open standards" |
| 21:59 | yep | |
| 21:59 | chris | yeah |
| 21:59 | interestingly enough sirsidynix are taking up the first 2 hours of the first day of lianza (the nz equiv of the ala conference) here this year | |
| 21:59 | Burgundavia | interesting. What with? |
| 22:00 | chris | the keynote address |
| 22:00 | Burgundavia | ah |
| 22:00 | chris | and then chairing a panel |
| 22:00 | Burgundavia | "how libraries can spend more money on us" |
| 22:00 | russ | http://www.lianza.org.nz/event[…]06/programme.html |
| 22:01 | chris | im picking that will be the angle they will take |
| 22:01 | Burgundavia | library I know is migrating Dynix Classic --> Sirsi Unicorn. Loosing 900k in fines, due to Unicorn not understanding that fines should persist after the book/thing has been removed from the collection |
| 22:01 | chris | roll up roll up, get locked in to our solution, ull never escape |
| 22:01 | yikes thats a lot to lose | |
| 22:02 | Burgundavia | not too mention the headache of the migration itself |
| 22:02 | russ | oooh that would cripple a public library in our region |
| 22:02 | chris | 2 libraries in nz have migrated from old dynix to koha in the last year |
| 22:02 | Burgundavia | they said that getting support for classic has basically been impossible since the merger |
| 22:02 | chris | yeah |
| 22:03 | the ones who migrated really had no choice, migrate or upgrade | |
| 22:03 | Burgundavia | it is important to publicize any libraries that do migrate |
| 22:03 | the koha website gives the impression that it is a one library trick | |
| 22:03 | chris | yep, we are working with the libraries to get them to do some publicity |
| 22:03 | Burgundavia | well, two, if you county athen county |
| 22:04 | count, that is | |
| 22:04 | chris | yeah, its more like a 200 library trick |
| 22:04 | but its hard to show that in a nice way | |
| 22:04 | we used to have a map | |
| 22:04 | on the old website ... and we need something like that again | |
| 22:04 | Burgundavia | a little news piece on the main website |
| 22:04 | X library has migrated from Y to Koha | |
| 22:05 | chris | http://old.koha.org/about/map/index.html <-- old map |
| 22:05 | Burgundavia | I have noticed libraries hate being pathfinders on technology |
| 22:05 | russ | i guess we have steered clear of that in the past |
| 22:05 | chris | we try to get the libraries to give us the permission for that |
| 22:05 | Burgundavia | ok, that is an amazing map |
| 22:06 | chris | thats old too, theres lots more than that now |
| 22:06 | Burgundavia | who does Koha marketing? |
| 22:06 | chris | no one :) |
| 22:06 | Burgundavia | hmm |
| 22:06 | chris | katipo markets its services ... which semi markets koha |
| 22:06 | liblime does the same | |
| 22:07 | paul in france does the same | |
| 22:07 | Burgundavia | but you have no Koha case studies, in printed form |
| 22:07 | nor a product guide | |
| 22:07 | chris | in printed, nope |
| 22:07 | we have lots in html | |
| 22:07 | in the wiki | |
| 22:07 | and at www.kohadocs.org | |
| 22:07 | hehe | |
| 22:07 | russ | lol |
| 22:08 | chris | have you looked at wiki.koha.org ... and www.kohadocs.org ? |
| 22:08 | Burgundavia | yep I have dug through |
| 22:08 | chris | thats pretty much what we have |
| 22:08 | we'd love printed material | |
| 22:08 | Burgundavia | most oss projects are bad on this |
| 22:08 | chris | but suffer from the same only so many hours in the day proble |
| 22:08 | m | |
| 22:09 | Burgundavia | hence the edubuntu case study |
| 22:09 | chris | right |
| 22:09 | Burgundavia | http://ubuntu.ca/Edubuntu-casestudy.png |
| 22:09 | chris | we have some printed material |
| 22:10 | some brochure stuff etc, that we (katipo) have used at ALIA online, and lianza | |
| 22:10 | Burgundavia | ah |
| 22:10 | chris | and i think liblime has some |
| 22:10 | Burgundavia | let me get this edubuntu case study out the door and the OPAC UI critique and I will see if I can take stock of what is available |
| 22:11 | chris | but there is no really general koha ones |
| 22:11 | excellent :) | |
| 22:11 | Burgundavia | ideally you wanat something you can co-brand: liblime/katipo/koha-fr and koha |
| 22:11 | chris | yeah that would be ideal |
| 22:12 | Burgundavia | does koha have a palette? (aside from purple) |
| 22:12 | chris | koha the project? |
| 22:12 | Burgundavia | yep |
| 22:12 | chris | hmm ill defer to russ on that one |
| 22:13 | you dont want me doing anything to do with design :-) | |
| 22:13 | Burgundavia | heh |
| 22:14 | russ | ahh not really |
| 22:14 | Burgundavia | ok |
| 22:14 | the blue and green on the website are not bad | |
| 22:14 | anyway, I have to run | |
| 22:14 | russ | it is mainly the green and the purple |
| 22:14 | Burgundavia | I will get my work IRC client on this channel as well |
| 22:14 | russ | catch you later |
| 22:15 | chris | cya later |
| 23:16 | thd | kados: are you still awake? |
| 02:39 | ToinS | hello world |
| 02:40 | chris | hi toins |
| 02:40 | ToinS | hello chris |
| 03:43 | chris | toins: with the work you are doing with C4::Koha ... are you planning to use get_itemtypeinfos_of instead of GetItemTypes ? |
| 03:44 | or keep using GetItemTypes ? | |
| 03:44 | ToinS | i've not really worked on koha.pm |
| 03:45 | i've just meet getitemtypes in a script and renamed it | |
| 03:45 | so i don't knw | |
| 03:45 | chris | ahh ok |
| 03:45 | btoumi | hi all |
| 03:45 | ToinS | hi btoumi |
| 03:45 | btoumi | hi toins: |
| 03:45 | hi chris | |
| 03:46 | chris | hi btoumi |
| 03:46 | toins: i just noticed the FIXME but im not sure who wrote that | |
| 03:46 | btoumi | chris i have a question for u |
| 03:47 | can I? | |
| 03:47 | chris | i think they do different things, so i think keep using GetItemTypes for now |
| 03:47 | sure btoumi | |
| 03:50 | ToinS | chris: ok ! |
| 03:53 | btoumi | i work on fines |
| 03:54 | but i can't see all value for accounttype can u help me? | |
| 03:55 | chris | right |
| 03:55 | there is Pay | |
| 03:56 | btoumi | i find fu o f m lr lc status but not all |
| 03:56 | chris | as well as those ones |
| 03:57 | L, F, Rep, F, FU, A, Pay | |
| 03:57 | are the ones i know | |
| 03:57 | btoumi | ok |
| 03:58 | chris | plus the |
| 03:58 | CS, CB, CW, CF and CL | |
| 03:58 | btoumi | can u configure them or not? |
| 03:59 | chris | no, they arent configurable |
| 03:59 | you can add more if you need more tho | |
| 03:59 | btoumi | now i learn more about the fines functionnement |
| 04:00 | chris | all the C ones are credits |
| 04:01 | btoumi | because for my library we must manage fines |
| 04:01 | chris | right |
| 04:02 | btoumi | but now the calcul of fines is do by fines2.pl ? |
| 04:02 | chris | yes |
| 04:02 | and Accounts2.pm | |
| 04:03 | btoumi | i find a lot of problem with this file |
| 04:03 | chris | and Circulation/Fines.pm |
| 04:03 | fines2.pl ? | |
| 04:03 | btoumi | yes |
| 04:03 | it uses a table whio not exist | |
| 04:04 | chris | ahh 2 seconds |
| 04:04 | ill update it | |
| 04:04 | btoumi | ok thanks |
| 04:04 | chris | hm which table does it use? |
| 04:06 | maybe im looking at the wrong file | |
| 04:06 | is it misc/fines2.pl ? | |
| 04:08 | btoumi | just one minute i think i make confuse with file i think i must sleep now |
| 04:08 | ;=) | |
| 04:08 | chris | :-) |
| 04:09 | btoumi | i confirm |
| 04:10 | chris | in head? |
| 04:10 | btoumi | not fines2.pl but fines.pm because in fines2.pl u use fines.pm |
| 04:10 | chris | ah ha |
| 04:10 | btoumi | yes i work only in head |
| 04:11 | line 161 in fines.pm | |
| 04:12 | chris | ahh yes i see it |
| 04:12 | categoryitem | |
| 04:12 | that should be issuingrules | |
| 04:12 | btoumi | yes |
| 04:12 | chris | 2 mintues ill fix that sql up |
| 04:13 | btoumi | i do it in my repository but i wasn't sure |
| 04:13 | that why i ask u | |
| 04:14 | chris | back before issuingrules existed, the issuing rules where in a table called categoryitem (borrower categories, plus itemtypes = categoryitem) |
| 04:14 | but issuingrules replaced that | |
| 04:15 | there we go | |
| 04:16 | damn | |
| 04:16 | i edited that file just a while ago and didnt even notice that :-) | |
| 04:18 | btoumi | i'm happy to help u ;=) |
| 04:19 | chris | :) |
| 04:21 | btoumi | perahps i have another question for u but not for the moment |
| 04:21 | ty | |
| 04:22 | chris | no problem |
| 04:25 | btoumi | another probleme with fines |
| 04:25 | chris | yep? |
| 04:26 | hi arnaud | |
| 04:26 | alaurin | hi, how are u .???? |
| 04:26 | btoumi | calcfines was not called in export |
| 04:27 | chris | ahh, it should be, can you fix that? |
| 04:27 | btoumi | yes i do it |
| 04:27 | chris | arnaud: im good thanks, and you? |
| 04:32 | alaurin | fine, i'm near of my holidays, so , I feel good !!!!! |
| 04:33 | ToinS | hello arnaud |
| 04:36 | alaurin | hi Toins |
| 04:37 | btoumi | chris: ok for fines.pm i have some probleme with my repository because call to calfine is ok in fines.pm |
| 04:37 | chris | ahh ok |
| 04:37 | btoumi | need one week for sleep |
| 04:38 | ;=) | |
| 04:39 | chris | hehe |
| 04:40 | paul | hello world |
| 04:40 | chris | hi paul |
| 04:41 | oh no | |
| 04:41 | paul | so works from Antoine home !!! |
| 04:42 | chris | up near the Notre Dame de la Guarde ? |
| 04:42 | paul | yep |
| 04:42 | chris | there must be a great view for Antoine's home |
| 04:42 | paul | my new home being close to ND |
| 04:42 | chris | ohh cool |
| 04:43 | paul | just on the other side of the hill (not sure of the word hill) |
| 04:43 | chris | i think hill is right ... its a big hill though :) |
| 04:49 | will you get cable or adsl in your office paul? | |
| 04:49 | paul | adsl |
| 04:49 | something like 4MB dn / 800KB up | |
| 04:49 | s/B/b/ | |
| 04:49 | chris | cool, thats not bad at all |
| 04:50 | i have 2mb dn, 2mb up | |
| 04:50 | on a cable modem | |
| 04:50 | paul | I had 6Mb previously, but my main concern is the up bandwidth |
| 04:50 | chris | yeah |
| 04:51 | paul | to investigage zoom & unimarc things... |
| 04:51 | chris | excellent |
| 04:51 | did you see there is a 2.3.0 ? | |
| 04:51 | paul | ToinS will start cleaning acquistion module this afternoon |
| 04:51 | yep. it's a dev_week snapshot I bet ? | |
| 04:51 | chris | yep |
| 04:52 | cool, we merged all our fixes in the acquistion module in head a few weeks ago | |
| 04:52 | so it probably needs some cleaning :) | |
| 04:52 | paul | did you look at ToinS code cleaning on suggestions ? |
| 04:53 | chris | yes its really good |
| 07:43 | kados | hi paul |
| 07:44 | paul | hello kados |
| 07:44 | good morning to you | |
| 07:44 | (working from ToinS home, because I still don't have any connexion at my new home :( ) | |
| 07:45 | do you have a few seconds for some questions ? | |
| 07:45 | kados | sure |
| 07:45 | paul | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]ingzebraplugin226 |
| 07:45 | ToinS | hi kados |
| 07:45 | kados | hey ToinS |
| 07:45 | paul | I'm not sure to understand : |
| 07:45 | - run rebuild-nonmarc from rel_2_2 if your framework has changed | |
| 07:45 | # | |
| 07:45 | run missing090field.pl (from dev-week) | |
| 07:45 | # | |
| 07:45 | run biblio_framework.sql from within the mysql monitor (from dev-week) | |
| 07:46 | # | |
| 07:46 | run phrase_log.sql from within the mysql monitor (from dev-week) | |
| 07:46 | 5. | |
| 07:46 | export your MARC records | |
| 07:46 | 6. | |
| 07:46 | run them through a preprocess routine to convert to utf-8 | |
| 07:46 | 7. | |
| 07:46 | double-check again for missing 090 fields (very critical) | |
| 07:46 | rebuild non marc is OK I think | |
| 07:46 | kados | except it should say from dev_week :-) |
| 07:47 | paul | i have completed this page & will continue as well, when I encounter something I don't understand well |
| 07:47 | kados | have you done those steps? or don't understand how? |
| 07:47 | paul | I haven't done anything yet |
| 07:48 | I just want to know what does those scripts ;-) | |
| 07:48 | kados | http://cvs.savannah.nongnu.org[…]_with_tag=R_2-3-0 |
| 07:48 | they are in the zebraplugin dir | |
| 07:48 | paul | (+ learn what you mean by "preprocess routine to convert to utf-8 ? don't you have one already ?) |
| 07:49 | kados | well ... preprocess includes many things |
| 07:49 | every previous version of Koha produced improper MARC records | |
| 07:49 | so all of those marc records must be preprocessed | |
| 07:49 | change encoding is just one step | |
| 07:49 | dewey | kados: that doesn't look right |
| 07:50 | kados | other steps are to add a new leader |
| 07:50 | paul | dewey : do back to bed please. It's time to sleep in new zealand... |
| 07:50 | dewey | paul: excuse me? |
| 07:50 | kados | add all of the fixed fields |
| 07:50 | (used for searching by date and format/content/audience) | |
| 07:51 | plus ... | |
| 07:51 | koha 2.x doesn't export items properly | |
| 07:51 | so it's necessary to query items table to get the right values for items fields | |
| 07:51 | all of that is covered under preprocessing | |
| 07:52 | ToinS | have someone ever seen this error : HTML::Template->param() : You gave me an odd number of parameters to param()! ??? |
| 07:52 | paul | yes ToinS : you have a 'XX' => $variable and $variable is probably empty. |
| 07:52 | try 'XX' => "$variable" | |
| 07:52 | ToinS | ok |
| 07:52 | paul | kados: is there a script that does all of this for you somewhere ? |
| 07:53 | kados | paul: it's not completely written yet |
| 07:53 | paul: and every client has different needs | |
| 07:53 | paul | yes, but that would be nice to have a starter ;-) |
| 07:53 | kados | right ... but MARC21 is quite different than UNIMARC |
| 07:53 | I'm afraid it won't be useful to you | |
| 07:54 | paul | because I can accept that " so it's necessary to query items table to get the right values for items fields" but I don't know what it means exactly & what to code to fix this !!! |
| 07:54 | kados | well ... |
| 07:54 | what it means is that somewhere in rel_2_2 code | |
| 07:55 | when items are updated, MARC isn't | |
| 07:55 | paul | on transfers, right ? |
| 07:55 | kados | also, somewhere in rel_2_2 code, 090 fields are being deleted or are never added for some records |
| 07:55 | NPL has several thousand!! missing 090 fields | |
| 07:56 | paul | wow ! strange, I never had this problem in France ! |
| 07:56 | kados | have you run missing090.pl before? :-) |
| 07:56 | you may be surprised :-) | |
| 07:56 | paul | I'll run & let you know if there is the problem |
| 07:57 | kados | paul: also, we spoke briefly about acquisitions bugs before |
| 07:57 | http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha226bugs | |
| 07:57 | a client has explained the bugs | |
| 07:57 | and I have submitted bug reports for each confirmed bug | |
| 07:57 | (welcome back :-)) | |
| 07:58 | paul | ToinS will start code cleaning on head in the afternoon |
| 07:58 | mason | hiya guys |
| 07:58 | kados | excellent |
| 07:58 | hey mason | |
| 07:58 | mason: kinda late, eh? :-) | |
| 07:58 | paul: I hear your new home is very beautiful | |
| 07:59 | mason | i have some acqui. changes done in that last couple of weeks that ill commit to head in the next hour, too |
| 07:59 | tis only 1am :) | |
| 07:59 | paul | great mason, we will wait for them then |
| 07:59 | mason | cheers paul |
| 08:00 | kados | paul: it's good to have you back :-) |
| 08:01 | paul: been very lonely in #koha in the morning for me :-) | |
| 08:02 | paul: http://liblime.com/public/roundtrip.pl | |
| 08:02 | paul: there is a sample of a preprocess script that only converts to UTF-8 | |
| 08:02 | paul: for MARC21 only | |
| 08:03 | paul: it also keeps track of problem records and saves them in XML and iso2709 form in separate dump files | |
| 08:06 | paul2 | ok kados, i'll investigate in the next minutes, i'll let you know if I have another problem |
| 08:41 | kados | paul: I just investigated whether it would be possible to keep the rel_2_2 style API for searching, and I think it could be done with some minor changes |
| 08:41 | paul: changes only to the routines in SearchMarc.pm | |
| 08:42 | paul | good news... |
| 08:42 | kados | paul: the CCL style of searching is very similar to the old API |
| 08:42 | :-) | |
| 08:43 | the only tricky part is how to integrate the results | |
| 08:43 | because with zebra, we get back full MARC records | |
| 08:43 | not bibids | |
| 08:44 | (in fact, we don't get the whole set of bibids at all ... that is kept in zebra) | |
| 08:44 | so maybe each MARC record in the result set must be processed to split it into Koha fields and MARC fields for display | |
| 08:49 | paul | if you have the MARC record, MARCmarc2koha sub in Biblio.pm will create the Koha field easily |
| 08:50 | kados | cool, thanks |
| 09:12 | paul | kados : what do you mean by "update to the latest bib framework"? do you mean "update to the latest marc21 frameworks from thomas" ? |
| 09:13 | if yes, what is specific with them (as I can't do it for unimarc) | |
| 09:15 | other question : I think convert_to_utf8.pl is redundant with updater/updatedatabase (see updatedatabase line 1404+ : it's the same alter table) | |
| 09:22 | kados : another problem/question : i try to run missing090field.pl, but it fails, as it requires zebra working. are you OK if I move this part AFTER Starting zebra ? | |
| 09:25 | kados : another one : biblio_framework.sql is partially already in updatedatabase. Are you OK if I put everything in this script ? (should be easy) | |
| 09:25 | same for phrase_log.sql | |
| 09:25 | hello tumer/ | |
| 09:25 | tumer | hi paul sorry about france |
| 09:26 | paul | the priest of my church is italian, so we all had a very large problem on sunday : could we have been happy with a victory from anyone. |
| 09:27 | in fact, this end was the worst possible, but also the best possible : it means nothing to win with penalties. | |
| 09:27 | so it also means nothing to loose with penalties ;-) | |
| 09:27 | tumer | not if you ask italians |
| 09:28 | paul | not all italians : our priest was happy, but only half happy. |
| 09:28 | and in 2 or 3 days, their joy will end with the justice decision, probably. | |
| 09:28 | did you hear of this scandal in cyprus as well ? | |
| 09:28 | tumer | paul i am almost finishing a complete new api for record handling. 1 question? |
| 09:29 | do you think we shouldmanage itemtype at biblio level or item level? | |
| 09:29 | paul | mmm... this question should be asked to koha-devel. In UNIMARC, itemtype is a biblio level information. |
| 09:30 | the best being to have something like FRBR, that is incompatible with unimarc. | |
| 09:30 | (and maybe with marc21 as well) | |
| 09:30 | tumer | so you cannot hve a CD version of a book under same biblio |
| 09:30 | paul | no you can't, because it's a different intellectual object. |
| 09:31 | otherwise, we could, for example, put all books from the same author in the same biblio. | |
| 09:31 | tumer | a book with a cd causing us problems-- CD gets loaned out for shorrter |
| 09:31 | and sometimes separately | |
| 09:31 | but they are in sme biblio | |
| 09:32 | well may be we should change library policy tehn | |
| 09:33 | paul | note that we could have itemtype at item level & still have the same behaviour as previously, the library just would have the same itemtype for each item. |
| 09:34 | but I think it must be asked to koha & koha-devel ml | |
| 09:34 | tumer | i'll ask it there |
| 09:34 | here is what i have changed: | |
| 09:34 | biblio table has only marc,biblionumber and itemtype | |
| 09:35 | items has itemnumber,biblionumber,marc,barcode | |
| 09:35 | kados | paul: just make sure you have two conf files |
| 09:35 | tumer | no biblioitems |
| 09:35 | biblio also has frameworkcode | |
| 09:35 | kados | paul: and you are using rel_2_2 bases when running missing090 |
| 09:35 | hi tumer | |
| 09:35 | tumer | hi kados |
| 09:36 | paul | ah, ok , it means you must have 2 DB during migrations. |
| 09:36 | kados | tumer: I read your conversation with thd yesterda |
| 09:36 | y | |
| 09:36 | paul: not quite | |
| 09:36 | paul: you run missing090 in the database before you mysqldump it | |
| 09:36 | paul: then you must run it again when you have the MARC data | |
| 09:37 | paul: (because sometimes there are still missing 090 fields and zebra indexing will crash if they are missing) | |
| 09:37 | tumer: please proceed with your plan and feel free to commit to HEAD | |
| 09:38 | tumer | kados:it will break everything itsa a complete new api |
| 09:38 | kados | tumer: that's the point |
| 09:38 | tumer: there is no official HEAD api yet | |
| 09:38 | tumer: what you are doing is closest to my vision of it | |
| 09:39 | tumer | ok but head has lots of junk old script in it, i have cleaned mine |
| 09:39 | how can i delete from head | |
| 09:39 | kados | good question |
| 09:39 | I wonder if savannah supports subversion yet | |
| 09:39 | that would allow this | |
| 09:39 | you can also do: | |
| 09:39 | cvs delete file.pl | |
| 09:40 | tumer | does that put them in archive? |
| 09:40 | paul | tumer: yes |
| 09:40 | kados | yes, you can't actually delete them |
| 09:40 | paul | (in Attic directory) |
| 09:41 | tumer | so what i will do is submit new biblio which will break all record handling ok? |
| 09:41 | paul | you plan to break everything ? sounds cool to me :D |
| 09:42 | kados | tumer: ok |
| 09:42 | tumer | i think thats the only way to actually get good clean code |
| 09:43 | kados | tumer: if you commit it I will take a look immediately |
| 09:43 | tumer: and tell you if I don't like something :-) | |
| 09:43 | (note that HEAD is already completely broken) | |
| 09:43 | (so it won't change anything :-)) | |
| 09:47 | tumer | i am currently working on it hope to get it fully functional by this weekend and put it to production |
| 09:48 | then i will commit | |
| 09:49 | btw it was not zebra problem zebra was crashing cuase this new M:F:X was not giving me xml_as_record | |
| 09:49 | i did not understand why | |
| 09:58 | kados | weird |
| 09:58 | what new M:F:X? | |
| 09:58 | is it the newest from SF? | |
| 09:58 | tumer | yep |
| 10:00 | i write $record->as_xml_record() and still get <colection> wrapper | |
| 10:00 | paul | kados : I can't get missing090.pl work correctly. |
| 10:00 | it calls MARCgetbiblio with a biblionumber as parameter. | |
| 10:00 | in rel_2_2, the parameter must be a bibid. | |
| 10:01 | and if I try with PERL5LIB pointing to dev_week, it fails, because the KOHA_CONF is not xml, but the old .conf file | |
| 10:02 | so, I have to run it from dev_week 100% : | |
| 10:02 | - copy rel_2_2 DB | |
| 10:02 | - run updater/updatedatabase | |
| 10:02 | - run missing090.pl | |
| 10:03 | the good news being that i don't have any missing 090 | |
| 10:03 | kados | excellent |
| 10:03 | paul | oups, no, I have a few. |
| 10:03 | kados | ahh...good for me :-) |
| 10:04 | paul | 10 for a 14000 biblio DB |
| 10:04 | tumer | but should be 0 |
| 10:05 | paul | right tumer |
| 10:05 | it's really a lot | |
| 10:06 | kados : you've missed some of my questions it seems : | |
| 10:06 | - update to the latest bib framework | |
| 10:07 | means "update to marc21 from thomas" ?if yes what is interesting for me to know for unimarc ? | |
| 10:07 | (hello owen) | |
| 10:07 | owen | Hi paul |
| 10:08 | tumer | paul i dont think you need it and infact should not otherwise you will loose your mappings |
| 10:08 | paul | - biblio_framework.sql, phrase_log.sql are already partially in updatedatabase. Is it OK if I put everything there ? |
| 10:08 | kados | yes |
| 10:08 | everything should be in dev_week updatabase | |
| 10:09 | eventually I would have put it in but didn't get to it | |
| 10:09 | paul | ok, i take care of it & update the wiki |
| 10:09 | kados | thx |
| 10:09 | tumer | biblio_framework update is not an essential part of this upgrade is it? |
| 10:09 | kados | yes |
| 10:09 | it's poorly named | |
| 10:09 | tumer | it merely adds more field definitions to what we already have and which we will not use |
| 10:09 | kados | biblio_framework.sql is what alters biblio and moves the frameworkcode as well as adding some columns |
| 10:10 | tumer | ahhh |
| 10:10 | paul | things that are already in udpatedabatase (like utf-8 conversion) |
| 10:10 | kados | utf-8 conversion should not be in updatedatabase |
| 10:10 | paul | why ? |
| 10:10 | kados | the wiki is not up to date with my latest tests |
| 10:11 | because depending on the version of mysql you are migrating from, converting to utf-8 could mangle all your data | |
| 10:11 | if you are running rel_2_2 on 4.0 | |
| 10:11 | there is no character set support | |
| 10:11 | paul | right. but we require 4.1 isn't it ? |
| 10:11 | kados | but you table and database definitions are probably set to latin1 |
| 10:11 | I speak of migration | |
| 10:11 | for new installs the procedure is different | |
| 10:12 | paul | so we should add a test to check for 4.1 when starting updatedatabase ? |
| 10:12 | kados | you can't |
| 10:12 | paul | I can't what ? |
| 10:12 | kados | you'd have to test the mysqldump to see if the data was coming from 4.0 or 4.1 |
| 10:12 | paul | add a test or require 4.1 ? |
| 10:12 | kados | 4.1 is required for dev_week |
| 10:12 | but most libraries will be migrating from 4.0 | |
| 10:13 | if you migrate from 4.0 you must do special things to preserve your character sets | |
| 10:13 | paul | but I thought we have said previously that 4.1 will be required for Koha 3 |
| 10:13 | kados | yes |
| 10:13 | 4.1 _is_ required for 2.4 and 3.0 | |
| 10:14 | paul | se a library migrating from Koha 2.2 will have to deal with mysql upgrade if needed. |
| 10:14 | kados | but most libraries are running 2.2 on mysql 4.0 |
| 10:14 | paul | before upgrading. |
| 10:14 | kados | yes |
| 10:14 | but that is a complicated process | |
| 10:14 | paul | and we could check this in updater. |
| 10:14 | kados | I doubt it |
| 10:14 | there are so many cases | |
| 10:14 | what encoding they started on, what they want to end up with, etc. | |
| 10:14 | paul | so, in updater, if mysql 4.0 => stop immediatly, if 4.1 => continue |
| 10:15 | kados | if 4.1, make sure the mysqldump is from 4.1 or stop immediately |
| 10:15 | paul | but everybody & everything will be in utf8 in 3.0 |
| 10:15 | kados | yes, but you need to convert it to utf-8 _and_ tell mysql that it is utf-8 |
| 10:15 | paul | and mysql alter table know where it comes from isn't it ? |
| 10:16 | kados | http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]ncodingscratchpad |
| 10:16 | ok | |
| 10:16 | I will give you NPL as an example | |
| 10:16 | paul | yes, i've read, but that's not enough for me |
| 10:16 | ok, listening | |
| 10:16 | kados | before Koha NPL had MARC_8 encoded records |
| 10:16 | they imported them into a mysql 3.23 db | |
| 10:16 | the database was set up for latin1 defaults | |
| 10:16 | so ... | |
| 10:17 | when NPL migrated from 1.9 to 2.0 using mysqldump | |
| 10:17 | all of the data was mangled by mylsql | |
| 10:17 | so now NPL has a database that thinks it has latin1 data | |
| 10:17 | but actually has marc8, mangled once in a conversion | |
| 10:18 | to upgrade, NPL must: | |
| 10:18 | paul | what does 'mangled' means ? |
| 10:18 | kados | alter the mysql tables and convert to binary or blob |
| 10:18 | (so now mysql doesn't know the encoding) | |
| 10:18 | (mangled means the characters have been re-encoded) | |
| 10:18 | (as was common when moving from 3.23 to 4.0 (which started having some character set support)) | |
| 10:19 | (so now mysql doesn't know the encoding because the data is of type blob, etc.) | |
| 10:19 | so now we can run mysqldump without mangling the data | |
| 10:19 | (again) | |
| 10:20 | now we need to convert everything to utf8 | |
| 10:20 | then we need to tell mysql that the tables are utf8 | |
| 10:20 | and in the case of the MARC data, we need to update all the leaders | |
| 10:21 | but every Koha migration will be different | |
| 10:21 | depending on the mysql version and encoding defaults they are using | |
| 10:21 | and the type of MARC | |
| 10:22 | paul: make better sense? | |
| 10:22 | paul: for a new install it's much simpler | |
| 10:22 | paul | yes partially make sense now. |
| 10:22 | kados | paul: a library must simply make sure that mysql 4.1 is set up with the correct encoding |
| 10:23 | paul: and that all their data is in utf8 before importing | |
| 10:23 | paul | to rewrite it : depending on what you really have and what mysql think you have, you will be in a big pain ;-) |
| 10:23 | kados | yep :-) |
| 10:23 | esp for french libraries | |
| 10:23 | who have many non-ascii characters | |
| 10:24 | paul | to transform from one to another encoding, is iconv enough (on the dump) ? |
| 10:24 | kados | you can transform within mysql itself |
| 10:24 | I don't know about iconv | |
| 10:24 | paul | how do you do to know what is the real encoding ? |
| 10:24 | kados | hehe |
| 10:24 | there is no way to know | |
| 10:24 | unless you know beforehand :-) | |
| 10:25 | paul | really nice... |
| 10:25 | kados | you can examine the hex :-) |
| 10:25 | the reason I know all of this | |
| 10:25 | paul | but we don't have any hex in mysql |
| 10:26 | kados | is because with WIPO, I was losing hair trying to get mysqldump to export utf-8 data to their db |
| 10:26 | because I didn't know that mysql thought it had latin1, not utf-8 | |
| 10:26 | very frustrating | |
| 10:26 | no hex in mysql | |
| 10:26 | you need to export to a file | |
| 10:26 | paul | ah, I understand now why you don't have your long hairs anymore... |
| 10:26 | kados | well ... even that could change it |
| 10:26 | some tests will need to be done | |
| 10:27 | mysqlhotcopy will take a snapshot of the db | |
| 10:27 | without touching the encoding | |
| 10:27 | so you can set up a test environment | |
| 10:27 | on another server | |
| 10:28 | it's a really big problem, unfortunately, maybe too big a job for updatedatabase :( | |
| 10:28 | but it's also unreleated to zebra :-) | |
| 10:28 | it's a problem we created ourselves :-) | |
| 10:28 | paul | do you know how we created it ? |
| 10:28 | kados | yes |
| 10:29 | because we said 'koha can run perfectly on any version of mysql with any settings' | |
| 10:29 | and not 'make sure you are running mysql 4.1 with encoding set to the same as your data' | |
| 10:29 | paul | mmm... I never said that... but I agree that I never checked ;-) |
| 10:30 | kados | (we of course, didn't say it, it was a sin of omission :-)) |
| 10:30 | paul | my problem is that I think I alway had iso8859 datas, but I was probably wrong, and I'll discover it soon |
| 10:30 | another question : | |
| 10:30 | if the datas where not iso8859, how is it possible to have correct MARCdetail ? | |
| 10:30 | (with proper accented chars) | |
| 10:30 | kados | hehe |
| 10:30 | that's just the best part | |
| 10:31 | mysql will let you store any encoding | |
| 10:31 | it doesn't care what you put in | |
| 10:31 | except when you try to mysqldump or convert to another encoding | |
| 10:32 | so you may have correctly encoded values | |
| 10:32 | but to get them out you must trick mysql | |
| 10:32 | paul | but when you put it on a web page, if it's not 8859, the page should be wrong in the browser isn't it ? |
| 10:33 | kados | isn't 8859 eq latin1? |
| 10:33 | paul | yep |
| 10:33 | kados | so if your encoding is 8859, and your db is 8859, and your meta tag is 8859, it's all good |
| 10:34 | paul | but you said that I could not be sure of my real encoding. So, if mysql = latin1, meta=latin1 and the pages are OK, then I have real latin1 datas ? |
| 10:34 | kados | sounds like it |
| 10:34 | paul | if yes, then all my libraries are ok ! |
| 10:35 | that's what is nice with a language that uses accents : any problem is easy to find ;-) | |
| 10:35 | kados | :) |
| 10:35 | so you can probably convert to utf8 before mysqldump | |
| 10:35 | (use a test db first of course) | |
| 10:36 | paul | of course. |
| 10:37 | bon appetit ! | |
| 10:45 | kados : how do you export your datas ? | |
| 10:46 | because export/export.pl is buggy (compilation failure) | |
| 11:07 | kados | paul: in rel22 it should work |
| 11:10 | paul | forget this, my copy was wrong. i had updated from something locally modified, so I got some cvs errors. restarting from a fresh copy |
| 11:11 | thd | kados: did you understand from reading the logs what tumer had done for holdings |
| 11:11 | ? | |
| 11:11 | paul | hello thd. |
| 11:11 | thd | hello paul |
| 11:16 | kados | thd: yes, and I approved it |
| 11:16 | ToinS | paul : updatedatabase has not been merged between rel_2_2 & head |
| 11:17 | kados | thd: it will be in head as soon as tumer deems it stabler :-) |
| 11:17 | ToinS: I did it yesterday | |
| 11:17 | ToinS | kados ah ok |
| 11:17 | thd | kados: he is not using it in production yet? |
| 11:18 | kados: did you see my message about how there are only about 3 fields for the librarian to worry about in standard MARC 21 holdings? | |
| 11:18 | kados | thd: no |
| 11:18 | thd: tell me | |
| 11:18 | thd | kados: or 3 at a time |
| 11:19 | kados: acquisitions would need 541, 583, and 876 that is just 3 fields with 877-8 for very special cases | |
| 11:19 | dewey | i already had it that way, thd. |
| 11:20 | kados | mainly dev_week and rel_2_2 are merged |
| 11:20 | thd | kados: cataloguing would need 852 or 856, and sometimes 863-868 |
| 11:20 | kados | there are a few that need to be manually merged |
| 11:20 | like biblio.pm, if there was anything in there | |
| 11:20 | thd: if they are defined in tab 10 they will show up I think | |
| 11:21 | even in the current scheme | |
| 11:21 | thd | kados: only 952 is defined in tab 10 |
| 11:22 | kados: would you not use the MARC editor to load a holdings record? | |
| 11:23 | kados: that would give the librarian access to whatever is needed | |
| 11:24 | kados: a holdings framework would in the case of MARC 21 be a very trimmed down bibliographic framework | |
| 11:25 | kados | ahh ... |
| 11:25 | right | |
| 11:25 | thd | kados: the fields are all there it is just a question of unhiding them |
| 11:25 | kados | so the regular MARC editor would be used |
| 11:26 | thd | kados: although, tumer has spotted an editor bug for filling a field from an authority field |
| 11:26 | s/field/record/ | |
| 11:27 | kados: tumer reports that if you add a repeated field the authorised heading fills the wrong field | |
| 11:29 | kados: in his case he found that an attempt to add an authorised heading was filling 690 instead of 700 after a repeatable field had been added | |
| 11:29 | kados | thd: I'll take a look |
| 11:29 | paul | kados/tumer/thd : which templates are OK for dev_week ? npl ? |
| 11:30 | thd | kados: will there be a meeting today? |
| 11:30 | now that paul is back | |
| 11:30 | kados | paul: only npl are tested |
| 11:30 | paul | i'm not back thd |
| 11:30 | thd | welcome back paul |
| 11:30 | no | |
| 11:30 | kados | paul: and don't expect searching to work except at opac-zoomsearch.pl |
| 11:30 | paul: :-) | |
| 11:30 | paul | i'm at ToinS home, so I will not be here everytime |
| 11:30 | thd | paul: you are still moving? |
| 11:31 | kados | thd: no time for a meeting today |
| 11:31 | paul | my move is done. but still no DSL |
| 11:31 | thd | paul: do you have dial-up |
| 11:31 | ? | |
| 11:32 | paul | i've DSL at ToinS home. I may be able to have a dial up, but it's very expensive |
| 11:33 | thd | paul: I have cheap dial-up because my building has the wrong too old equipment for cheaper DSL and the telephone company will not replace it. |
| 11:35 | paul: I will have optical fibre or a hole in a foundation wall before the telephone company will replace a circuit box from the 60s. | |
| 11:36 | monopolies in action | |
| 11:39 | kados: why was it so difficult to think of the simplest most efficient solution for standard holdings? | |
| 11:40 | kados | thd: sorry, got a lot on my plate right now |
| 11:40 | thd: I really want to resolve the standard holdings issues | |
| 11:40 | thd: and I think we're very close | |
| 11:40 | thd: but don't have the time today to discuss deeply | |
| 11:41 | thd | kados: tumer has it by not needing repeated fields just repeated holdings records |
| 11:42 | kados: OK I have to go now in any case | |
| 11:51 | paul | kados ? |
| 11:51 | dewey | kados is probably becoming a true Perl Monger... |
| 11:52 | paul | zebraidx -g iso2709 -c /koha/etc/zebra-biblios.cfg -d kohaplugin update /path/to/records => /path/to/records is the path to all records, right ? |
| 11:52 | so we have to export all of them in 1 big file (using export/export.pl) or 1 for each biblio ? | |
| 11:53 | kados | all in one file |
| 11:53 | tumer[A] | paul one big chunck |
| 11:53 | kados | file must be named *.iso2709 |
| 11:53 | and put in /path/to/records | |
| 11:53 | paul | the /path/to/record being a directory with only this file, or can contains other things ? |
| 11:53 | kados | it can contain other things |
| 11:54 | but they will be ignored | |
| 11:54 | tumer[A] | only with marc records |
| 11:54 | sometimes does not ignore them | |
| 11:54 | kados | only files with an excension of .iso2709 will be noticed |
| 11:54 | ahh ... tumer is probably right, i have not tested this extensively | |
| 11:55 | tumer | kados:it tries to read every file and sometimes goes crazy saying they dont have id's so best to have marc records only |
| 11:55 | kados | :-) |
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