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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:08 | hdl | kados ? |
| 12:08 | I need some information here. | |
| 12:09 | Which fields do you link to | |
| 12:09 | itemtype | |
| 12:09 | bibliosubject | |
| 12:09 | author (100$a guessed) | |
| 12:09 | in MARC-21 | |
| 12:10 | itemcalnumber needed too. | |
| 12:18 | kados | thd: some of my clients use both DDC and LCC |
| 12:19 | thd: so use 'dewey' to may the DDC and 'classification' to map the LCC (I think) | |
| 12:21 | hdl: I've got to run on a service call | |
| 12:21 | thd | kados: I see that would be the simplest way of doing it |
| 12:22 | kados | hdl: thd can answer your question (as we're trying to decide how to handle this currently) |
| 12:22 | thd: do you think it's a good way? | |
| 12:23 | thd | kados: it does not conform with what chris had for range search |
| 12:23 | kados | thd: I'll be back in ten minutes |
| 12:24 | thd | kados: range search might work with LCC but maybe the letters would need conversion to numbers |
| 12:29 | hdl | thd : can you answer my question ? |
| 12:30 | MARC-21 is quite confusing to me. | |
| 12:31 | thd | hdl: yes I can probably answer |
| 12:31 | hdl: UNIMARC is more logical | |
| 12:32 | hdl: There is no proper standard MARC field to link to biblioitems.itemtype in either MARC 21 or UNIMARC | |
| 12:33 | hdl | 200$b seems to be the one we generally use |
| 12:33 | I saw 942$c for itemtype | |
| 12:34 | thd | hdl: This is because the field that you would want to map for general material designation with is 245 $h in MARC 21 is not used for books. |
| 12:34 | s/with/which/ | |
| 12:35 | hdl | 942$k for itemcallnumber ? |
| 12:36 | thd | kados: for books Anglo American cataloguing Rules specify that books are assumed when nothing is specified and I am certain that the rule is the same for French bibliographic rules |
| 12:36 | hdl sorry above | |
| 12:37 | hdl | 700$q for author ? (seems always empty would 100$q be more accurate ?).... . |
| 12:38 | thd | hdl: Therefore, a separate field is needed which could be filled by a script in MARC 21 from 245 $h and if 245 $h were not present then BOOK would fill the special field. |
| 12:38 | hdl | 650$a bibliosubject. |
| 12:39 | thd: Is such a script designed already ? | |
| 12:39 | thd | hdl: items are currently in a nonstandard 952 by default |
| 12:40 | hdl: so currently 952 $k by default | |
| 12:41 | hdl | is 942 a standard for items ? |
| 12:41 | thd | hdl: No there is no such script yet but since paul has told kados the secret of writing cross field scripts and he is currently working on the record editor I expect there will be a script soon |
| 12:42 | paul | ;-) |
| 12:42 | kados | I can confirm that :-) |
| 12:43 | thd: however, currently what I need is just a basic mapping that will work in the time being | |
| 12:43 | thd | hdl: 942 is used for biblioitems not items and is an invention of paul but fortunately does not conflict with any other uses |
| 12:44 | hdl: 952 is used for items and conflicts with the world's second largest library network RLIN so I intend to move that. | |
| 12:45 | paul | it's a proposal from NPL |
| 12:46 | thd | paul: Is there anything in Koha that would cause a problem for 95k with a letter instead of 952? |
| 12:46 | kados | thd: we won't move 952 in rel_2_2 I don't think |
| 12:46 | thd: as it's completely unnecessary | |
| 12:47 | thd: if we find a client that uses RLIN records we can just re-map the values using our import scraipt | |
| 12:47 | thd: script I mean | |
| 12:47 | thd | kados: It would be very simple with a little thought to write the SQL |
| 13:00 | pierrick | read you all tonight at the meeting :-) |
| 13:01 | (I have some topics to discuss on) | |
| 13:02 | paul | I leave too. |
| 13:02 | not sure to be here tonight, but i'll try | |
| 13:02 | pierrick | paul: will you be there tonight ? |
| 13:02 | cross post... | |
| 13:02 | paul_away | you've got the answer ;-) |
| 13:13 | thd | kados: If you look at 952 as my email had suggested, it can almost be used as if it were 852, 876-8 and I am much more interested in rearranging the subfields according to my recommendation so that the match to 852, 876-8 is more perfect but I left the ones you already had where they were. |
| 13:14 | kados | thd: checking now |
| 13:15 | thd: dewey 942 k Classification base (DDC to decimal or LCC letter class padded after single letter classes with trailing 0 | |
| 13:15 | ? | |
| 13:16 | thd: 942K should not be LCC ... it should be DDC | |
| 13:16 | thd | kados: that is how chris intended to use it for range searching which does not really work with LCC |
| 13:16 | kados | thd: 942J is still marked as obsolete |
| 13:16 | thd: forget searching by classification in rel_2_2 | |
| 13:16 | thd | kados: you do not need 942 j |
| 13:17 | kados | thd: what I'm woried about is display |
| 13:17 | thd | kados: it never existed before so just do not fill it |
| 13:17 | :) | |
| 13:17 | kados | hmmm |
| 13:17 | NBBC uses that | |
| 13:17 | classification is LCC | |
| 13:18 | dewey is DCC | |
| 13:18 | DDC I mean | |
| 13:18 | thd | kados: NBBC has it mapped to 050 |
| 13:18 | kados | that's fine as long as it will display! |
| 13:18 | which is the whole point | |
| 13:19 | 050 for classification? | |
| 13:21 | thd | kados: the map that you gave me had 050 $a mapped to items.classification and 050 $b mapped to items.subclass. |
| 13:21 | kados | thd: I believe I mapped it that way because you told me to some months back :-) |
| 13:21 | thd: why don't you like that method now? | |
| 13:21 | thd | kados: What I did is allow the framework to be agnostic as to DDC or LCC |
| 13:22 | kados | thd: but many clients use both DDC and LCC |
| 13:22 | thd: so the framework has to support both simultanously | |
| 13:22 | thd | kados: you discovered plugins and 942 should be filled with a plugin so the cataloguer never has to touch it |
| 13:23 | kados | thd: itemtype needs to be manually set |
| 13:23 | thd: also, you aren't taking into account local classifications | |
| 13:23 | thd: or locations | |
| 13:23 | thd: both of which some libraries use | |
| 13:24 | thd | kados: I may have been a little mistaken about the mapping months ago but you did not seem to have enough time then to see how the plugins worked in French else we may have had a very different conversation at the time |
| 13:25 | kados | there are three things to keep in mind |
| 13:26 | wait ... nevermind | |
| 13:26 | thd | kados: oh yes but if the question is joining all the matches in a unified manner at the biblio level and not the item level the classification system does not even matter much |
| 13:27 | kados | ok ... the problem with classifications and call numbers and locations is that every library does it differently |
| 13:27 | some use classification and call number interchangably | |
| 13:28 | some have multiple classifications but only one call number | |
| 13:28 | some have call numbers at the record level AND at the item level | |
| 13:28 | etc etc. | |
| 13:29 | there may be a standard way to represent classification / call number / location in MARC21 but I've yet to see a library that uses it | |
| 13:29 | thd | kados: call number is the classification system number plus the item number plus prefixes and suffixes |
| 13:29 | kados | thd: not in actual practice |
| 13:29 | thd: that may be the 'standard' but I've never seen a library do it that way | |
| 13:30 | thd | kados: at standards based libraries that are afraid to try or are still to large for Koha it is done that way. |
| 13:30 | kados | ok, but we're not going to conform to standards to the exclusion of libraries like NPL that don't use them |
| 13:31 | we need to be all inclusive | |
| 13:31 | thd | kados: but most libraries in the world are not as standard as they might be |
| 13:32 | yes, I agree but I do not see how anything broke except that I was trying to thick of what would allow the system to work for any library with the least cataloguer effort | |
| 13:34 | kados | thd: the latest file you sent me has the following in the record editor's 942 field: |
| 13:34 | - ADDED ENTRY ELEMENTS (KOHA) | |
| 13:34 | Item type * | |
| 13:34 | Classification base (DDC to decimal or LCC letter class padded after single letter classes with trailing 0 | |
| 13:34 | Classification subclass (DDC after decimal or LCC number after letters | |
| 13:34 | thd | kados: if the library is using a nonstandard classification that is fine there are MARC 21 fields for that and they can also be captured by a plugin if filled and inserted into 942 |
| 13:35 | kados: I was trying to think of how the range search that chris devised could work for LCC | |
| 13:35 | kados | NBBC has: |
| 13:35 | Institution code | |
| 13:35 | item type | |
| 13:35 | dewey | |
| 13:35 | (LCC is autofilled by 050) | |
| 13:35 | (I suppose dewey could be autofilled as well) | |
| 13:36 | thd | kados: I think the range search is numeric so LCC would need some manipulation |
| 13:36 | kados | thd: why don't we just map the 'dewey' and 'classification' koha fields directly to the marc fields 030 and 080? |
| 13:36 | thd: the range search is being fixed by Tumer in head | |
| 13:36 | thd | kados: like I said the cataloguer should never have to touch 942 even if the library has its own special system |
| 13:37 | kados | thd: it's never worked with LCC classification or with the MARC version of Koha and I won't have time to fix it |
| 13:37 | thd: so just forget about it for rel_2_2 I think | |
| 13:37 | thd | kados: it does do something with DDC if it is mapped the way I described |
| 13:38 | kados: the reason it did not work is that it was not mapped correctly | |
| 13:38 | kados | thd: fine, but that's the last thing I'm thinking about |
| 13:38 | thd: none of my clients have every asked for such a search | |
| 13:38 | thd | kados: my parenthetical comments were really meant as partial instructions for writing a plugin |
| 13:39 | kados | thd: what is highest priority is ensuring that the classification / call number / location are clearly visible on the results pages |
| 13:39 | thd: so that people can actually find the items they're looking for on the shelves :-) | |
| 13:39 | thd: we can deal with the search issues later | |
| 13:40 | thd: so should we map Dewey to 080 and Classification to 050? | |
| 13:40 | thd | kados: Koha works fine as long as itemtypes is filled and you could write a plugin for the classification parts of 942 in an hour and save cataloguers a lot of work |
| 13:41 | kados: do you mean 082 DDC or 080 UDC? | |
| 13:42 | kados | thd: 082 DCC |
| 13:43 | thd | kados: The search issues were not really my greatest focus as much as releaving cataloguers of work |
| 13:43 | kados | gotcha |
| 13:43 | ok, I can work on that plugin | |
| 13:43 | I still dont' quite understand what it should do | |
| 13:43 | but first, how should we map things? | |
| 13:45 | thd | kados: it should search for the local cataloguing system fields to see if they were filled and then fill from the standard field that is specified in a system preference or with the possibility of modification by a per record flag for those libraries that want several different classifications in addition to the default |
| 13:46 | kados: that was the broad overview | |
| 13:48 | kados: inspect 084 for a value if a system preference allows 084 to be used for a less common classification system. | |
| 13:52 | kados: oops first check if some field ,942 whatever has overridden the usual pattern by 942 $whatever so that any record can do something different | |
| 13:53 | kados: resuming, If 084 is empty even if other classifications are allowed then go to the common standard classification specified by a classification preference | |
| 13:55 | kados: if the preference specifies DDC then the 3 digits before the decimal from 082 $a fill 942 $k biblioitems.dewey | |
| 13:57 | kados: and the digits form 082 $a after the decimal fill 942 $l biblioitems.subclass | |
| 13:58 | kados | thd: ok, hang on |
| 13:59 | thd: we need to determine how to map things first | |
| 13:59 | thd: we'll discuss the specifics of the plugin later when I have time :-) | |
| 13:59 | thd | kados: how to map what? |
| 13:59 | kados | koha tables to MARC tables for classification |
| 14:01 | should we map 'dewey' to 082? | |
| 14:01 | should we may 'classification' to 050? | |
| 14:01 | thd | ok kados: but it is very simple and similarly you can fill values for 952 in the same way so the cataloguer presses a few buttons and everything is done as if by magic :) |
| 14:01 | kados | thd: i don't have time to do that today |
| 14:01 | thd: that's a weekend project :-) | |
| 14:02 | thd | kados: weekends and the days between are all the same to me :) |
| 14:02 | kados | hehe |
| 14:03 | thd | kados: the mapping is stable as long as you are not moving the framework between DDC and LCC or whatever |
| 14:04 | kados | thd: what mapping? |
| 14:04 | thd | kados: If you let the plugin do the work according to a preference then you can have a single default framework |
| 14:06 | kados: biblioitems.classification was intended for the equivalent of 852 $c or 852 $k | |
| 14:08 | kados: biblioitems.dewey does not map cleanly to MARC because it was meant for part of 082 $a but you can certainly fill it consistently from a plugin | |
| 14:10 | kados: biblioitems.subclass does not map cleanly to MARC because it was meant for the latter part of 082 $a but you can certainly fill it consistently from a plugin | |
| 14:12 | kados: splt the $a string by the decimal if DDC and by the space if LCC or local system with spaces | |
| 14:12 | s/decimal/decimal point/ | |
| 14:14 | kados: that algorithm will work every time so the cataloguer should only have to ensure that there is something in 050, 082, or 084 as needed | |
| 14:18 | kados: if you are migrating records without such fields then you map the values from where they are in 852, 090, 092, 096 or wherever; or else you upgrade the records with a script that will be easy once we have struggled a bit for a well tested method | |
| 14:22 | oh yes 090 has to move absolutely because it can very easily complicate copy cataloguing | |
| 14:51 | kados | thd: back from lunch |
| 14:55 | thd | kados did you see my posts about mapping above? |
| 14:59 | kados | thd: yes |
| 14:59 | what would the syspref be? | |
| 14:59 | what would the possible values be? | |
| 15:01 | thd | One preference for defaultClassificationSystem |
| 15:01 | values | |
| 15:01 | DDC | |
| 15:01 | UDC | |
| 15:01 | LCC | |
| 15:02 | NLM | |
| 15:03 | kados | what about systems like NPL where there is more than one classification/call number system active at the same time? |
| 15:03 | also, what about systems that distinguish between classification and call number and location? | |
| 15:03 | thd | National Library of Agriculture (I do not know th e abbreviation) |
| 15:04 | kados: other systems are coming and then concluding with local system | |
| 15:04 | kados | ?? |
| 15:05 | thd | http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/en/0xx/098.shtm |
| 15:05 | kados: lastly local custom system | |
| 15:08 | kados: I left out government document classification | |
| 15:11 | kados: another boolean system preference would be allowOtherClassSystem for using an alternate classification system if filled. | |
| 15:11 | kados: classification systems are the fun part of library science | |
| 15:11 | kados: that OCLC list is very very short | |
| 15:12 | not that all of library science is not fun but the most fun of all can be had with classification systems | |
| 15:14 | kados | thd: I'm just going to manually set up my client's classification system |
| 15:14 | thd: can't wait any longer :-) | |
| 15:14 | thd | :) |
| 15:15 | did you get my email with the small changes? | |
| 15:32 | kados | barcode and 942$j? |
| 15:38 | thd | kados: yes that one |
| 15:54 | hdl | hi |
| 15:54 | kados | hi hdl |
| 16:02 | pierrick | is anybody here? |
| 16:02 | hdl | yes |
| 16:03 | and kados and thd-back-soon | |
| 16:03 | ooops thd-back-soon will bbs :) | |
| 16:03 | kados | we can postpone the mtg until next week unless either of you have anything to report |
| 16:03 | I don't have anything new ... been struggling to get zebra 'sort' to work ... | |
| 16:04 | hdl | But pierrick said he had. |
| 16:04 | kados | ahh ... ok |
| 16:04 | pierrick: what's up? | |
| 16:04 | pierrick | well... yes I still have questions :-) |
| 16:05 | first topic : the bugtracker | |
| 16:05 | there seems to remain very old items | |
| 16:06 | kados | yep, I'm sure there are :-) |
| 16:06 | pierrick | and in 2 weeks, only one update |
| 16:06 | kados | it's not frequently used I'm afraid |
| 16:06 | pierrick | what is the current status of the bugtracker ? |
| 16:06 | kados | I think 2.2 is quite stabliized (except for the many bugs that noone wants to work on) |
| 16:07 | for 3.0 it's too early to begin using it since we don't even have a running system | |
| 16:07 | pierrick | having a bugtracker is a very good point, but keeping very old items unresolved is not a good point at all :-/ |
| 16:07 | kados | once 3.0 stabilizes a bit more it will become more important |
| 16:07 | pierrick: I agree, but the problem is noone seems willing to fix the old items | |
| 16:07 | russ | morning |
| 16:07 | kados | pierrick: morning russ |
| 16:07 | oops :-) | |
| 16:08 | paul2 | hello world ! |
| 16:08 | kados | so guess we'll have a meeting after all |
| 16:08 | paul's here even :-) | |
| 16:08 | pierrick | wouldn't it be useful to close too old items that nobody will fix ? |
| 16:08 | kados | pierrick: they still exist :-) |
| 16:08 | pierrick: so I think it wouldn't be that useful | |
| 16:09 | pierrick | old bugs still present, I suppose there are really minor bugs |
| 16:09 | does the bugtracker also use as "request tracker" ? | |
| 16:09 | kados | pierrick: in fact, some are not very minor |
| 16:09 | pierrick: sometimes it's used as an RT | |
| 16:10 | russ | i hope that during the dev week in may we will be able to do a bit of a tidy up |
| 16:10 | kados | yea, it's a very good point |
| 16:11 | for a while we were doing weekly bug squasing sessions | |
| 16:11 | maybe we need to revisit that | |
| 16:11 | pierrick | btw kados, closing a bug does not mean it's fixed, we can justify the close as "won't be fixed" (in the general case, I don't have an example in mind) |
| 16:11 | kados: BSP would be great | |
| 16:11 | russ | you can resolve as "later" as well - but i am not sure if that is all that usefeul |
| 16:12 | kados | I count 174 unresolved bugs |
| 16:12 | for Koha>2.2.2 | |
| 16:12 | pierrick | oldest ? |
| 16:12 | thd | pierrick: that means that you did not try hard enough to fix it or it is a feature :) |
| 16:12 | kados | we can ignore Koha<2.0 |
| 16:12 | as those branches aren't maintained any longer | |
| 16:12 | pierrick | no customer still in koha<2.0 ? |
| 16:13 | thd | kados: I suspect some of Katipo's customers would hope you are wrong about 1.X not being maintained |
| 16:14 | russ | well i dont thing we have anyone on the 1.x series anymore |
| 16:14 | kados | hmmm ... well russ'll have to speak to that |
| 16:14 | paul | at least they are not officially maintained ! |
| 16:14 | thd | except that Katipo has its own bug tracking system in addition to bugs.koha.org |
| 16:14 | kados | (as do all Koha companies I suspect :)) |
| 16:14 | russ | i think it is fairly safe to assume that those people using the older versions either don't notice the bugs, have fixed them or developed work arounds |
| 16:15 | paul | just one note : I wake up at 4AM tomorrow. and it's already 9:15PM in France. So I won't stay for more than 45mn. |
| 16:15 | going to bed at 10 for sure. | |
| 16:15 | russ | yikes 4am |
| 16:15 | kados | ok, so I will post a message about reinstituting the weekly bug squashing meeting |
| 16:15 | anything else to discuss? | |
| 16:16 | paul: yowser! | |
| 16:16 | russ | i have put the conference pages live on the koha site |
| 16:16 | paul | pierrick : no probl you didn't know : I come to see flc, not you ;-) |
| 16:16 | russ | paul - i sent a test message to the form last night |
| 16:16 | kados | russ: cool |
| 16:16 | paul | I recieved it russel. |
| 16:16 | thd | russ does that have the complete schedule? |
| 16:16 | russ | paul: great |
| 16:16 | no not at the moment | |
| 16:16 | pierrick | paul: hope you'll come to say hello at least :-) |
| 16:17 | paul | for sure ! |
| 16:17 | russ | it has broad details at the moment whilst the complete schedule is developed on the wiki |
| 16:17 | paul | what do you call "complete schedule" thd ? |
| 16:17 | pierrick | russ: I read KohaCon pages on koha.org today |
| 16:17 | thd | paul: please clarify what the schedule actually is for KohaCon and after |
| 16:18 | paul | ??? |
| 16:18 | thd | as complete as you would like to specify |
| 16:19 | paul: what dates are clearly or tentatively defined for what places | |
| 16:19 | ? | |
| 16:19 | pierrick | maybe thd wants to know the estimated length of each presentation... |
| 16:19 | russ | they are all confirmed |
| 16:19 | paul | russ : right. |
| 16:19 | ENSMP is OK, CMI too, so dates are definitive. Unless there is an earthquake in France. | |
| 16:19 | or a revolution. | |
| 16:19 | kados | or a riot :-) |
| 16:20 | heh, paul beat me :-) | |
| 16:20 | russ | yep closer to the time it would be good to publish a programme of speakers, topics and the schedule |
| 16:20 | paul | yep. |
| 16:20 | we should publish it in french this week. | |
| 16:20 | thd | paul: now I am trying to work out the possibility of attending and would need to purchase air fair before the ticket would become to expensive. Not that my passport has arrived yet |
| 16:20 | paul | I'll translate it for you. |
| 16:20 | kados | paul: thanks |
| 16:20 | paul | thd : you'll come too ? |
| 16:21 | good news, I didn't knew. | |
| 16:21 | thd | paul: not if I do not know the dates clearly |
| 16:21 | paul | you'll come for both weeks ? |
| 16:21 | thd | paul: yes |
| 16:21 | kados | thd: http://koha.org/community/conferences/index.html |
| 16:21 | thd | if I can |
| 16:21 | paul | easy : may, 2nd : meeting for everybody that want to discover Koha. Not useful for you.. |
| 16:22 | may, 3rd : meeting for all koha users in Europe. Mostly french I bet, but maybe some other, we will see. | |
| 16:22 | thd | I still want to discover the mysteries of Koha :) |
| 16:22 | paul | may 8th -> May 12 = developper week in Marseille. |
| 16:22 | you're welcomed, of course. | |
| 16:22 | there will be 2 other librarians. | |
| 16:22 | just beware that the hotel should be reserved ASAP | |
| 16:23 | all infos on www.koha.org/wiki | |
| 16:23 | KohaCon page. | |
| 16:23 | thd | paul: I am actually not a librarian nor have I ever been employed as a librarian |
| 16:23 | paul | pierrick : same note for you : reserve your hotel too. |
| 16:23 | ? really ? I thought, as you know everything from MARC21 & UNIMARC. | |
| 16:23 | pierrick | paul: all right, I'll do it tomorrow |
| 16:24 | thd | paul: I was formerly a bookseller with a library science background and some understanding of computer systems |
| 16:25 | paul: I wrote a system using MARC records for my bookshop at the same time that Koha was being created | |
| 16:25 | 1999 | |
| 16:25 | paul | did everybody look at http://www.flickr.com/photos/6[…]63@N00/115366281/ ? |
| 16:26 | pierrick | course I saw it, he send an email with it on koha-devel |
| 16:27 | thd | very pretty |
| 16:27 | kados | paul: yes, it will fit nicely on kohazilla.org when I finally launch it :-) |
| 16:27 | (the plugin I mean) | |
| 16:28 | pierrick | this is the maybe moment for my second question of the meeting : templates |
| 16:28 | kados | sure |
| 16:29 | pierrick | in current head, there are many template/language, why don't we work only on prog/en during development |
| 16:29 | kados | I think that's the plan |
| 16:29 | paul | we aare supposed to do that |
| 16:30 | everybody ONLY work on english at least. | |
| 16:30 | pierrick | Wouldn't it be easier to have only one template/language in CVS and other downloadable on koha.org as "extensions" ? |
| 16:30 | paul | pierrick ++ |
| 16:32 | pierrick | anybody would be able to add/update extensions |
| 16:32 | paul | although i'm still thinking that it would be best to have only 1 template. |
| 16:32 | with stylesheet + maybe header/footer specific. | |
| 16:32 | pierrick | thus encouraging participation from librarians |
| 16:34 | kados | right |
| 16:34 | very good ideas | |
| 16:34 | paul | "right" for who ? pierrick or me ? |
| 16:34 | kados | both :-) |
| 16:35 | paul | there is something very basic & needing manual setup on koha-fr.org, with stylesheets for css templates. |
| 16:35 | kados | it would be neat if we had a tool for translating templates online |
| 16:35 | pierrick | something like launchpad??? |
| 16:35 | thd | I suspect the reason that has not worked to date is that people want to use the template to support different features and presentation to an extent that exceeds mere stylesheet differences |
| 16:35 | kados | I don't know launchpad |
| 16:35 | pierrick | (rosetta more precisely) |
| 16:36 | paul | kados : we already have something : http://bureau.paulpoulain.com/kartouche/ |
| 16:36 | pierrick | launchpad is a kind of project manager for Ubuntu |
| 16:36 | paul | it just need something to "install" and "update" the text strings with koha tmpl_process3.pl |
| 16:36 | kados | ahh ... |
| 16:36 | paul | I never found the 2-3 hours needed to do this. |
| 16:36 | kados | we need to popularize the kartouche |
| 16:37 | paul | if someone has a better software for this, he can suggest : kartouche is a dead project It seems |
| 16:37 | kados | paul: will you have time before 3.0? :-) |
| 16:37 | pierrick | kartouche is exactly the same as what launchpad/rosetta offers |
| 16:37 | paul | no new release since 0.2 |
| 16:37 | kados | bummer |
| 16:38 | pierrick: does rosetta use 'PO' files for translation? | |
| 16:38 | pierrick | I suppose, but rosetta is not a free software :-/ we can't install it on koha.org |
| 16:38 | kados | hmmm |
| 16:38 | paul | so it's not a possible candidate :-( |
| 16:38 | pierrick | it's a servicve |
| 16:39 | thd | pierrick how unfree is it? |
| 16:39 | pierrick | thd: it is not donwloadable |
| 16:39 | kados | "No, Rosetta is not Open or Free Software at the moment. Rosetta will become open source sometime in the future but we don't have a date, although some parts of the Launchpad have already been released under the GPL by Canonical Ltd." |
| 16:39 | so it must still be in 'beta' | |
| 16:40 | pierrick | thank you kados for the fast search |
| 16:40 | kados | and they want to wait until it's fully functional before making a public release |
| 16:40 | understandable if that's the motivation | |
| 16:41 | so for now we all agree to only work on prog/en | |
| 16:41 | pierrick | would you be interested in an extension manager for koha.org ? |
| 16:41 | kados | and we'll continue to look for a good template translation system |
| 16:41 | pierrick: could you explain what you mean? | |
| 16:42 | paul | the only/main difficulty being to port templates from rel_2_2 to head. |
| 16:43 | pierrick | kados: imagine a new customer has decided to fully rewrite a new template, the extension manager would let this customer offer his work to the community |
| 16:43 | kados | right, that will require a lot of grunt work :-) |
| 16:43 | pierrick: that would be great! | |
| 16:43 | pierrick | kados: without adding it to CVS |
| 16:43 | kados | pierrick: in fact, that's how I envisioned kohazilla.org |
| 16:43 | pierrick: (doesn't exist yet) | |
| 16:44 | pierrick: kind of like Wordpress 'plugins' | |
| 16:44 | pierrick | kados: I'll work with you on this if you want... we developped such a tool on my other project |
| 16:44 | kados | pierrick: that'd be great! |
| 16:44 | russ | or oscommerce contributions |
| 16:44 | kados | right |
| 16:44 | ok ... don't want to keep paul up | |
| 16:44 | anything else ? | |
| 16:44 | pierrick | russ & kados: do WP and oscommerce give away their tool ? |
| 16:45 | paul | a question, about pierrick : what kind of official position could we give to ineo/pierrick ? |
| 16:45 | kados | paul: good question |
| 16:45 | pierrick: WP is open source | |
| 16:45 | QA Manager is up for grabs IIRC | |
| 16:45 | paul | pierrick : no need to stop speaking, you can have an idea ! |
| 16:45 | pierrick | kados: in know WP, but the plugin manager ? |
| 16:46 | kados | pierrick: what position would you like? :-) |
| 16:46 | pierrick: I think so ... | |
| 16:46 | pierrick | how do you define QA manager position on Koha ? |
| 16:46 | kados | very loosely :-) |
| 16:47 | responsible for ensuring high quality of the project code | |
| 16:47 | russ | how do you define any position in Koha |
| 16:47 | paul | the guy that we could kick if we have bugs on a stable reelase! |
| 16:47 | russ | very loosely |
| 16:47 | kados | hehe |
| 16:47 | paul | lol |
| 16:48 | pierrick | paul: you meant "the guy who would be allowed to kick if coders let bugs in their code" |
| 16:48 | kados | pierrick: if you are QA manager I can assign you with the task of organizing the Bug Squashing sessions :-) |
| 16:48 | thd | the guy responsible for ensuring that there is no stable release until all bugs are fixed |
| 16:48 | paul | no pierrick : I mean the guy that libraries can kick if he accept a release that has bugs. |
| 16:48 | kados | hehe |
| 16:49 | pierrick | not sure I see this role as you :-/ |
| 16:49 | thd | This is how Debian goes 3 years between stable releases |
| 16:49 | pierrick | thd: I agree |
| 16:49 | kados | pierrick: how would you define a QA manager? |
| 16:50 | better yet, what official role do you want to fill? :-) | |
| 16:50 | paul | I think the QA manager is responsible for heavy testing. and organising bug squashing. |
| 16:50 | pierrick | code reviewing, keeping an eye on the bugtracker so that no bug stays too long |
| 16:50 | kados | excellent |
| 16:51 | thd | pierrick: you can invent a role that has not been described yet |
| 16:51 | kados | pierrick: is it something you are interested in holding? or would you prefer something else? |
| 16:51 | pierrick | paul: I do not agree with you, QA manager do not have to heavy test the application, not in open source model |
| 16:51 | QA manager is an interesting position, as long as I do other things :-) | |
| 16:52 | russ | sounds like a good position to learn alot about koha |
| 16:52 | thd | pierrick: what is the distinction between open and closed source QA? |
| 16:52 | kados | pierrick: Koha may be different than other OSS systems because the software must be tested before placing into production as bugs would seriously comprimise a library's workflow |
| 16:52 | pierrick | if in 2 months QA is stil on the same level, it would mean I'm not made for this |
| 16:53 | kados | heh ... fair enough :-) |
| 16:53 | ok ... congratulations then pierrick, our new QA Manager | |
| 16:53 | russ | :-) |
| 16:53 | pierrick | let's make a try |
| 16:53 | kados | sounds good |
| 16:53 | anything else to discuss at the meeting? | |
| 16:53 | paul | maybe pierrick should ask for confirmation from ineo ? |
| 16:54 | pierrick | thd: I'll answer you later, but the question is very interesting, I've worked on the two sides |
| 16:54 | paul | as he's ineo employee. |
| 16:54 | russ | pierrick - perhaps to the list |
| 16:54 | paul | (although I already spoke of this many times to flc & jps) |
| 16:54 | russ | the devel list - i'd be interested to read your observations |
| 16:54 | pierrick | kados: yes I have another point |
| 16:54 | kados | ok |
| 16:55 | pierrick | koha project on Freshmeat has not been updated for a long time |
| 16:56 | kados | I didn't even know we were listed |
| 16:56 | pierrick | russ: OK, I'll make my comments on difference between open and closed source QA on koha-devel |
| 16:56 | russ | http://freshmeat.net/projects/koha/ |
| 16:56 | pierrick | we are :-) |
| 16:56 | kados | we need a PR manager :-) |
| 16:56 | russ | pierrick : thanks |
| 16:56 | pierrick | PR ? |
| 16:56 | kados | pierrick: I'll see if I can update the entry |
| 16:56 | Public Relations | |
| 16:57 | pierrick | a very hard task I suppose |
| 16:57 | thd | pierrick: the people who tell you that toxic sludge is good for you :) |
| 16:57 | paul | and probably not one for a non native english |
| 16:57 | thd | and do it with a smile |
| 16:58 | kados | yep, thanks for that russ |
| 16:58 | paul | and if he's really good, once you're ill, he sell you the medicine to help you... |
| 16:58 | pierrick | an unusual position in an opensource initiative |
| 16:58 | only big projects have that (Mozilla or Openoffice.org...) | |
| 16:59 | kados | right |
| 16:59 | russ | it something i'd like to talk about at the dev week |
| 16:59 | kados | yep, me too |
| 16:59 | paul | russ : http://www.koha.org/community/[…]discoverkoha.html |
| 16:59 | you write "May, 3rd" when speaking of may 2nd. | |
| 16:59 | russ | doh!! |
| 17:00 | 2 secs | |
| 17:00 | paul | http://www.koha.org/community/[…]registration.html |
| 17:00 | the form contains 3rd & 4th of may, instead of 2nd and 3rd | |
| 17:00 | kados | it's 3rd and 4th in NZ :-) |
| 17:01 | pierrick | kados: impressive |
| 17:01 | paul | "we will contact you to arrange payment" + the price : it will be free of charge |
| 17:01 | as we would have to pay ENSMP if the meeting is not free. | |
| 17:01 | + it would be highly more complex for ENSMP as well as for us. | |
| 17:02 | so, we have decided to have it for free. | |
| 17:02 | thd | paul: formerly you spoke of fees to ensure attendance but now that has changed? |
| 17:02 | paul | yes. |
| 17:02 | russ | ok that should all be fixed now |
| 17:02 | paul | when we spoke to Pascale Nalon, ENSMP, she explained to us that |
| 17:03 | ENSMP can't (legally) host such a meeting for free if it's not free. | |
| 17:03 | ENSMP is a school from french government. | |
| 17:03 | so very heavy on administrative rules ! | |
| 17:04 | thd | paul: free software should have free meetings but I understand your reasoning to ensure larger attendance |
| 17:04 | paul | that was my opinion (+ we hope this meeting will provide us some customers !), but not ineo one. |
| 17:05 | finally, it's ENSMP that forces the choice ! | |
| 17:05 | thd | as people would be disinclined to waste something for which they have paid |
| 17:05 | paul | right |
| 17:05 | pierrick : in fact, I think that pate, our previous kaitiaki was quite a good PR guy. | |
| 17:06 | it's 10:10. anything else ? | |
| 17:06 | thd | paul: is there some way to substitute something that is not money but would function in the same way for the purpose of larger attendance? |
| 17:06 | paul | if you have an idea, let me know, we are open to any ! |
| 17:08 | thd | paul: you might ask for a confirmation of attendance by email, telephone etc. |
| 17:08 | paul | that's what we plan to do. |
| 17:08 | pierrick | another very small point: would it be possible to log your commits on the Wiki ? |
| 17:09 | thd | paul: If you could extract a promise or intention of attendance then people may be reluctant to break there declaration of intention. |
| 17:09 | pierrick | (add a small summary when you create a new version of a page) the RSS feed becomes far more readable |
| 17:11 | thd | paul: we have in English the passive closing of an invitation with the abbreviation of the French phrase RSVP |
| 17:12 | paul | ??? |
| 17:12 | thd | paul: But you could be more aggressive and attempt to personally contact anyone who was sent an invitation or announcement |
| 17:13 | pierrick | thd: good idea |
| 17:13 | paul | I think that Ineo plans to invite all important libraries in France personnaly. |
| 17:13 | with a mail & maybe a snailmail as well. | |
| 17:13 | russ | paul - are you going to do an email for the koha and koha-devel lists? |
| 17:14 | paul | for sure. |
| 17:14 | pierrick | on the last free (gratis) open source conference I went to, I had to register and I was called by phone to confirm |
| 17:14 | thd | paul: r?pondez s'il vous pla?t is RSVP |
| 17:14 | russ | ok i gotta go |
| 17:14 | back in an hour or two | |
| 17:15 | pierrick | bye russ |
| 17:15 | russ | bye all |
| 17:15 | thd | pierrick: I expect to see all the important librarians in France there |
| 17:15 | pierrick | good night paul |
| 17:16 | thd | good night paul |
| 17:16 | hdl | good night paul |
| 17:16 | pierrick | thd: INEO expects that too, but not biggest libraries |
| 17:16 | paul: and see you tomorrow :-) | |
| 17:16 | paul | bye all. |
| 17:19 | thd | perrick: will no one from BNF be there? |
| 17:20 | pierrick | BNF ??? I can't be 100% sure but I don't think so |
| 17:21 | thd | pierrick: They should have some computer systems person who is curious |
| 17:21 | pierrick | thd: it's not how I understood this meeting, IMO it was for potential customer, and BNF is not a potential customer |
| 17:21 | thd | pierrick: yes you are correct |
| 17:21 | pierrick | thd: but I may be wrong, we'll see on May, 2nd :-) |
| 17:22 | thd | of course I have not seen the announcement notice that you would have sent |
| 17:23 | pierrick | meeting status ? |
| 17:23 | (I've got nothing to add) | |
| 17:24 | thd | kados must have wandered already as he is too busy today |
| 17:25 | pierrick | OK, it's 22h24 here, I go back home to help my wife and the baby, good night #koha :-) |
| 17:26 | thd | good night pierrick |
| 17:57 | kados: are you around? | |
| 17:58 | kados | thd: barely |
| 20:33 | russ | mason - what is the uid/pass for http://koha.hollows.katipo.co.[…]/koha/mainpage.pl |
| 20:34 | ack | |
| 20:34 | wrong # | |
| 22:06 | thd | kados: what are you seeing that I did not or that I did? |
| 22:06 | kados | thd: nevermind that, I've got it resolved |
| 22:07 | thd: what I'd like to discuss is itemcallnumber if you have a couple of minutes | |
| 22:07 | thd | kados: stared at the problem and it evaporated |
| 22:07 | ok | |
| 22:07 | kados | thd: paul has a syspref for itemcallnumber but I'm not clear on what it's supposed to do |
| 22:08 | thd: or how to relate his syspref to the 952 spec you created | |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: it did until quite recently fill items.itemcallnumber with the contents of whatever field/subfield was given in the preference |
| 22:09 | kados | thd: it doesn't do that now? |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: I had suspected your great bugfixes to the editor of breaking it |
| 22:09 | kados | thd: hmmm ... |
| 22:09 | that could be | |
| 22:10 | hmmm | |
| 22:10 | well actually, I don't see how | |
| 22:10 | because I've never edited additem.pl or .tmpl except one minor change | |
| 22:10 | that only affected encoding | |
| 22:11 | thd | kados: no it does nothing now but formerly you could set 050a in the preference and it would fill half of the LC call number in whatever field/subfield had been set to item.itemscallnumber |
| 22:11 | kados | thd: as with MARC subjects, I'm very confused about how classifications are supposed to work |
| 22:12 | thd | kados: It had the defect of being limited to one subfield when what you would want is 050 $a space $b |
| 22:13 | kados: $a is the classification number for the base classification | |
| 22:14 | kados | what is the purpose of splitting up the classification in the record, is there any advantage other than that's the standard way to represent it? |
| 22:15 | thd | $b is a number to distinguish a particular title from all the other titles sharing the same place in the classification system and is usually derived form the author's last name according to rules in a table |
| 22:16 | kados | but why split it up? why not just have everything in a single field? |
| 22:16 | thd | kados: the splitting allows treating the separate elements separately and it is certainly an advantage for searching |
| 22:17 | kados | in simple cases, like the client I'm working with now, there are only a few hundred items in the collection |
| 22:17 | I think a minimal holdings and classification system is needed to deal with this case | |
| 22:18 | thd | kados: everything in a single field gives false matches when you want to search only the classification hierarchy and not the silly number that distinguishes multiple biblios occurring in the same place |
| 22:18 | kados | homebranch/holdingbranch, cost, classification, date acquired, public note |
| 22:18 | I think those 6 fields are all that are needed | |
| 22:20 | thd | kados: several of the subfields should be filled by a plugins so there is no work for the catalaloguer |
| 22:21 | kados: the cataloguer should not even need to fill any classification fields for copy catalogued records | |
| 22:22 | kados | thd: unless they want item-level classification |
| 22:25 | thd | kados: classification subfields should cascade from the front of the record maybe a value list for JUV prefix or appending the copy number after the suffix or something might be needed but then there is no need do anything for items.itemcallnumber because that would auto-fill from concatenating the other subfields with space or slash separation. |
| 22:26 | so a copy number usually establishes the item | |
| 22:27 | kados: 741.53 A54 copy 2 | |
| 22:29 | kados:852 $h741.53$iA54$t2 | |
| 22:31 | kados: the spine label would be 741.53\nA54\nc. 2 | |
| 22:33 | kados: certainly different copies would need different barcodes where preprinted barcodes are usually the most efficient with scanning them in rather than trying to print a known number. | |
| 22:34 | although barcodes are not required by MARC | |
| 22:34 | only by the Koha framework | |
| 22:35 | after I changed it back earlier :) | |
| 22:37 | however 003 is mandatory within the system. http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0002.htm | |
| 22:38 | kados | ok |
| 22:40 | thd | obviously LC is not exporting records with 03 but that may be Eneavor Voyager's fault. |
| 22:47 | kados: so if the appropriate subfields are minimised for items or not appearing then the cataloguer should not have to do much more than scan in a preprinted barcode as anything else relevant such as holding branch can be set from context unless all cataloguing is centralised. | |
| 22:48 | kados: are you still there? | |
| 22:51 | kados | thd: kindasorta |
| 22:51 | thd | kados: are you still awake? |
| 22:51 | kados | thd: barely :-) |
| 22:52 | thd: I agree the cataloger should hardly have to add anything but the barcode | |
| 22:52 | thd: but that plugin will be a weekend job unfortunately :-) | |
| 22:52 | thd: I've got several clients that need some love this week :-) | |
| 22:52 | thd | kados: let us leave the other question until tomorrow if you will have some time then when you are fully awake |
| 22:52 | kados | ok |
| 22:56 | thd: do you happen to know if there is an authoritative list of non-filing words/characters for MARC21 in English? | |
| 22:56 | thd: The the a A obviously, any others? | |
| 22:56 | (not stopwords but rather words that are not used for sorting) | |
| 22:57 | thd | kados: you use the indicator position if you are reading a preexisting record |
| 22:57 | kados | thd: we can't do that with zebra |
| 22:57 | thd: we need to rely on a list of words that should be ommitted for sorting (but not for searching) | |
| 22:58 | thd | kados: so are you speaking about a plugin for setting that position in the editor when creating an original record? |
| 22:58 | kados | thd: no, I'm talking about a zebra configuration file that specifies which words to omit for sorting |
| 22:59 | thd | kados: there may be an AACR list for both possibilities as the answer would be the same. |
| 23:01 | kados: I think it is simple in English but French is tricky because they contract their prepositions | |
| 23:01 | kados | yep |
| 23:03 | thd | kados:s/prepositions/articles/ |
| 23:04 | kados | prepositions ... you sure? |
| 23:05 | 1-9 Number of nonfiling characters present. A field begins with a definite or indefinite article that is disregarded in sorting and filing processes. Enter the number of characters in the article, plus spaces, punctuation, diacritical marks and special characters that precede the first significant word. | |
| 23:05 | Any diacritical mark or special character associated with the first filing character is not included in the count of nonfiling characters. | |
| 23:05 | from: http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/en/7xx/793.shtm | |
| 23:05 | thd: so just articles The and a then | |
| 23:05 | w00t, got that working already | |
| 23:09 | thd | horay and I could not find the rule in my old printed copy of AACR2, suggesting that it was a MARC and systems question at least in 1978. |
| 23:13 | kados | heh |
| 23:34 | thd | kados: did you miss 'an'? |
| 23:34 | kados | thd: yes, thanks :-) |
| 23:46 | rach | good work on presuring perick into taking on qa :-) |
| 23:46 | well persuading | |
| 00:18 | thd | kados: INITIAL ARTICLES |
| 00:18 | For languages: Arabic, Dutch, English, French, German, Hebrew, Hungarian, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Yiddish | |
| 00:18 | http://library.ucr.edu/?view=d[…]ols/initiala.html | |
| 00:18 | kados | thd: nice, thanks! |
| 00:20 | thd | kados there may be something in Cataloger's Desktop. Have you tried using it? |
| 00:21 | kados | thd: not yet, but I'll give it a show asap |
| 00:21 | thd | unfortunately frames retard sharing links |
| 04:14 | osmoze | bonjour :) |
| 04:27 | hdl | bonjour osmoze |
| 09:34 | pierrick | thd: I've answered your question about proprietary Vs OSS regarding QA, on koha-devel |
| 10:11 | kados | morning all |
| 10:11 | pierrick | hello Johsua |
| 10:11 | Joshua even | |
| 10:12 | kados | pierrick: nice email sent to koha-devel |
| 10:12 | pierrick | kados: thanks :-) |
| 10:12 | very personnal point a view, need to be discussed | |
| 10:12 | kados | yep ... |
| 10:13 | one problem I forsee with no QA testing is that many clients don't want to run buggy software to discover the bugs | |
| 10:13 | pierrick | I saw Paul his morning just to say hello, he won't be online until friday |
| 10:13 | kados | ahh |
| 10:14 | Koha is not like many other OSS applications because it is actually quite difficult to convince a library to use it :-) | |
| 10:14 | pierrick | I didn't mean no QA testing, I mean QA testing with involved customers |
| 10:14 | oh OK :-/ | |
| 10:15 | kados | ahh ... yes the customer who sponsored a feature should be heavily involved in QA testing, I agree |
| 10:16 | pierrick | IMO, we can't garantee the 100% stability having such an open development model |
| 10:16 | did you test the commits I made ? | |
| 10:16 | who did ? | |
| 10:16 | hdl | hi kados |
| 10:16 | pierrick | If I didn't, nobody did it I suppose |
| 10:17 | (hi hdl) | |
| 10:19 | hdl | kados or thd : For authors, you can have up to Three major subfields : 100$a, 245$c and 700$a, what is the rule ? |
| 10:19 | kados | hdl: there are more than three :-) |
| 10:19 | but 100$a is the most important one | |
| 10:20 | 700$a is where additional authors go | |
| 10:20 | 245$c puts author as it appears on title page of the book | |
| 10:29 | pierrick | kados: when you have time and if you're still interested, you can ask m about the extension manager... |
| 10:32 | hdl | kados: For our customers, what is commonly used is 200$f which could be related to your 245$c |
| 10:32 | That is why I am quit confused. | |
| 10:32 | kados | hdl: thd is the expert, I just dabble :-) |
| 10:34 | hdl | But when linking to Koha NonMARC field, I know only ONE MARC-subfield should be linked. |
| 10:34 | unless results could be quite awful. | |
| 10:48 | kados | I think 100$a is the 'one' to link |
| 10:50 | pierrick | kados: if you answer to my mail about QA management, could you explain what *you* are expecting from a QA manager please? |
| 10:51 | kados | sure |
| 10:51 | I will try to find the time today | |
| 10:51 | and about extension manager, maybe we can discuss it on Thursday? (today I'm strapped for time and tomorrow I have a demo of perl-zoom for NPL) | |
| 10:51 | pierrick | :-) not a high priority, do it when you have time |
| 10:52 | kados | BTW, hdl and pierrick, chris and I got perl-zoom to sort last night |
| 10:52 | pierrick | thursday, I'm visiting a big customer to see what is the usual work of INEO |
| 10:52 | kados | cool |
| 10:53 | hdl | Great ! |
| 10:53 | (kados and chris) | |
| 10:54 | pierrick | sort on Dewey you mean ? I saw something like that in CVS |
| 11:00 | kados | well, the index now supports sort by Dewey |
| 11:00 | but the code's not there I don't think | |
| 11:00 | unless chris got to it while I was sleeping | |
| 11:00 | now, for some breakfast | |
| 11:02 | osmoze | by all |
| 11:02 | hdl | bon apettit. |
| 11:02 | osmoze | e |
| 11:02 | hdl | bye osmoze |
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