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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:00 | pierrick_ | OK, I try your documentation and tell you later where I'm blocked ;-) |
| 11:00 | kados | sounds good :-) |
| 11:01 | (of course, you must replace references to sourceforge with savannah) | |
| 11:01 | pierrick_ | (I've already done the correct checkout) |
| 11:02 | |hdl| | pierrick_: for zebraserver, you have to change the call : zebrasrv localhost:2100/yourbase |
| 11:02 | rebooting | |
| 11:04 | kados | morning owen |
| 11:04 | owen | Hi |
| 11:05 | kados | owen: this afternoon I'll be setting up the new Koha server for NPL |
| 11:45 | |hdl| | hello again. |
| 11:45 | héhé | |
| 11:45 | paul | ca marche ! |
| 11:47 | |hdl| | je shuis en franchais chuiche, mais an utf-8 :) |
| 12:00 | kados : | |
| 12:00 | DBD::mysql::db do failed: Can't create table './kohazebra/#sql-cf8_d.frm' (errno: 150) at ../../updater/updatedatabase line 973. | |
| 12:01 | kados | |hdl|: what is this caused by? |
| 12:02 | |hdl| | my $sql="alter table $table ADD FOREIGN KEY $row->{key} ($row->{key}) REFERENCES $row->{foreigntable} ($row->{foreignkey})"; |
| 12:02 | $sql .= " on update ".$row->{onUpdate} if $row->{onUpdate}; | |
| 12:02 | $sql .= " on delete ".$row->{onDelete} if $row->{onDelete}; | |
| 12:02 | ||
| 12:02 | kados | you have mysql 4.1? |
| 12:02 | |hdl| | yes |
| 12:02 | paul | mmm... sounds like a mysql corruption |
| 12:02 | (or permission) | |
| 12:03 | kados | maybe myisamchk? |
| 12:04 | |hdl| | is not a Myisam DB :/ |
| 12:05 | InnoDB :) | |
| 12:06 | only bibliothesaurus is MyISAM | |
| 12:07 | paul | don't worry : |
| 12:07 | drop table bibliothesaurus ! | |
| 12:07 | it's useless | |
| 12:17 | |hdl| | paul kados : didyou know convmv ? |
| 12:17 | convmv is a PERL utility which converts filenames to a certain char set for me UTF-8 | |
| 12:43 | and get it into zebra.. | |
| 12:47 | kados | I didn't know of convmv |
| 12:48 | but hdl, the latest MARC::File::XML will automatically convert your MARC records to utf-8 | |
| 12:48 | and since it's the primary way we currently bulkmarcimport this should already happen | |
| 12:49 | I am 90% sure that that utf-8 problems are in fact just the system locale | |
| 12:49 | though I haven't had a spare moment to test this | |
| 12:58 | |hdl| | I spoke about this utility 'cause it is PERL and deals with encoding. |
| 13:06 | kados | |hdl|: try changing your system locale to utf-8 |
| 13:06 | |hdl|: i suspect it will work perfectly after this | |
| 13:06 | |hdl| | I did. |
| 13:06 | kados | still not working? |
| 13:06 | |hdl| | Always my warning Wide character in print. |
| 13:07 | kados | why does it work fine on koha.liblime.com? |
| 13:07 | |hdl| | when using rebuild_zebra_idx.pl |
| 13:07 | kados | using rel_2_2 |
| 13:07 | the only difference that I can tell is that head uses utf-8 encoding in mysql | |
| 13:07 | |hdl| | Americans donot have the same fancy characters as french :) |
| 13:07 | kados | and I don't know why that is necessary |
| 13:08 | |hdl|: but it works with chinese or french in koha.liblime.com | |
| 13:08 | |hdl|: try it yourself | |
| 13:08 | |hdl|: add a new branch with a french name (with fancy characters) | |
| 13:09 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]admin/branches.pl | |
| 13:11 | |hdl| | It is not a problem of base nor characters in base. |
| 13:12 | It is when writing UTF-8 files on disk for import into zebra :) | |
| 13:12 | In my case, at my point :) | |
| 13:16 | kados | back |
| 13:19 | |hdl| | open F,">:utf-8","$filename"; |
| 13:26 | no. | |
| 13:28 | kados | writing from where? |
| 13:28 | what are you doing exactly? | |
| 13:33 | paul | update_zebra_idx |
| 13:34 | to generate XML biblios in files, to be able to reindex zebraidx update biblios/ | |
| 13:40 | kados | why would you want to run zebraidx from the command line? |
| 13:41 | if biblios already exist in Koha, it should just be a matter of exporting as MARC::Record, converting to a MARC::XML::File object and indexing directly in zebra | |
| 13:41 | no need to write the files to disk | |
| 13:42 | paul | kados : |hdl|tried that because the zoom update_zebra was very slow. |
| 13:42 | kados | right |
| 13:42 | paul | maybe he should try the new one (and copy your zebra.cfg improvements to unimarc) |
| 13:42 | kados | i will commit the new Context.pm |
| 13:42 | paul | (like shadow register) |
| 13:43 | kados | shoudl be 5 times faster |
| 13:43 | but still quite slow in fact | |
| 13:43 | we are still working on this | |
| 13:43 | (shadow registers are probably required in fact) | |
| 13:45 | committed | |
| 13:45 | my load tests indicate that the slowest part of the import | |
| 13:46 | is converting from MARC::Record to MARC::XML::File | |
| 13:46 | especially the conversion from MARC-8 to UTF-8 | |
| 13:46 | paul | which xml parser do you use ? |
| 13:46 | (as the pure perl one is really slow :-( ) | |
| 13:46 | kados | I only use MARC::XML::File which uses MARC::Charset |
| 13:47 | can I change the default xml parser somehow? | |
| 13:49 | paul | I installed another one (search a mail about this on koha-zebra, or zebra, or perl4lib, from me) and it has been automatically choosen |
| 13:50 | kados | ok ... I will |
| 13:53 | paul | holidays / news commited on HEAD |
| 13:55 | kados | great! I will check it out asap |
| 13:58 | paul | (wait a minut, some missing files) |
| 14:06 | kados | thd-away: are you present? |
| 14:11 | |hdl| | kados : where are you zebra imporvements ? |
| 14:13 | kados | |hdl|: just to Context.pm |
| 14:13 | |hdl|: commented out the 'search' when checking for a Zconn | |
| 14:14 | paul_away | bye & see you on monday |
| 14:14 | |hdl| | bye paul_away |
| 14:14 | kados | bye paul_away |
| 14:14 | osmoze | i m following paul, bye all |
| 14:27 | |hdl| | Why is there always Record 0 Type XML ? Is this normal ? |
| 14:28 | in zebrasrv log. | |
| 14:31 | kados | I don't know |
| 14:31 | |hdl|: I can't remember if I tested rebuild_zebra.pl with the new subroutines | |
| 14:31 | |hdl|: I will check | |
| 14:32 | |hdl| | seems it works. But I am waiting for the results. |
| 14:32 | kados | it does not use new routines |
| 14:33 | in fact, it should be fixed | |
| 14:33 | I will do so and commit immediately | |
| 14:33 | pierrick_ | I'v encountered many problems installing ZOOM (because the available version was not compatible with my yaz version) and less than 50% of test during "make test" were satisfied :-/ I've run "make install" to finish the installation. I haven't done symbolic links yet. I'll do them on monday (or this week end if I feel like working on Koha ;-) See you on monday, enjoy your week-end |
| 14:34 | kados | pierrick_: you will need the most recent versions of yaz and zebra |
| 14:34 | pierrick_: and the tests will fail | |
| 14:34 | pierrick_: because currently the test server that it runs queries on is down | |
| 14:35 | pierrick_: but dont' worry, it works fine | |
| 14:35 | pierrick_ | (I realised that and downloaded the last version of yaz, ZOOM and zebra and compiled them from source) |
| 14:35 | kados | pierrick_: you MUST upgrade to latest version of yaz and zebra for perl-ZOOM to work |
| 14:35 | pierrick_: if you run debian this is quite easy | |
| 14:35 | pierrick_: as index data maintains a deb repo | |
| 14:36 | pierrick_ | I don't really run Debian at work (because my laptop graphic chipset was not very well recognized), so I installed Ubuntu |
| 14:37 | ... installing from source is not a problem. updating may be one... | |
| 14:38 | kados | pierrick_: I should be around most of the weekend if you need help |
| 14:38 | pierrick_: Monday I'll be in and out | |
| 14:38 | pierrick_: but here for the Koha meeting | |
| 14:38 | pierrick_: (will you attend it?) | |
| 14:38 | pierrick_: (it's great to have you on board btw!) | |
| 14:38 | pierrick_: (I look forward to working with you!) | |
| 14:38 | pierrick_ | (Paul told me it was at 21h, french hour) |
| 14:39 | (I hope Erwann, my 7 months son, will be sleeping) | |
| 14:40 | (very happy to work on the project, meeting with Paul was great, I learned many things at once) | |
| 14:41 | bye :-) | |
| 15:06 | thd | kados: I am present again |
| 15:07 | kados | thd: I'm working on a opac authorities search |
| 15:07 | http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]thorities-home.pl | |
| 15:07 | still quite early in the dev :-) | |
| 15:08 | my goal is to get it to be as functional as /authorities.loc.gov | |
| 15:08 | thd | kados: did you understand the problem that I had identified with subjects in MARC 21 that could need multiple $9s ? |
| 15:08 | kados | not fully |
| 15:09 | I am currently trying to expand the thesaurus frameworks | |
| 15:09 | thd | kados: Did you read the full MARC 21 authority doc? |
| 15:10 | kados | not all of it, but much of it |
| 15:10 | thd | kados: What are you adding to the thesaurus? |
| 15:10 | kados | leader and fixed fields :-) |
| 15:11 | (I hope they are supported | |
| 15:11 | thd | kados: Oh, I had imagined that you were adding columns to the controlling table |
| 15:11 | kados | do we need more columns? |
| 15:12 | thd | kados: We do for all frameworks to work very well but that is not a problem for minimal working. |
| 15:13 | kados | I'd like to see how far we can take the current model |
| 15:13 | so that 2.2.6 at least supports what Koha is capable of now | |
| 15:13 | thd | kados: It would still be the current model but we should get to minimal working first |
| 15:13 | kados | of course, once I understand what it can currently do and what the limitations are, that will enable me to decide on a path for 3.0 |
| 15:13 | thd | with the current columns if possible |
| 15:14 | kados | sounds like a plan |
| 15:14 | http://authorities.loc.gov/cgi[…]03130510&PID=3574 | |
| 15:14 | I'm going to add that record to Koha | |
| 15:14 | and see what I can do with it | |
| 15:14 | but first I need to add the frameworks support | |
| 15:15 | then, maybe tomorrow, I will begin working on bulkauthimport.pl | |
| 15:17 | thd | kados: how would you get an external record in without bulkauthimport.pl doing something? |
| 15:18 | kados | i will hand code it :-) |
| 15:18 | well ... copy/paste | |
| 15:19 | thd: in your opinion, should the tag 003 be marked mandatory? or should the subfield @ be marked mandatory? | |
| 15:19 | thd | kados: I cannot seem to get LC to open it for me. What is in the 1XX for that record? |
| 15:19 | kados | 953716 |
| 15:20 | thd | kados: if the field is a control filed then both should necessarily be mandatory. |
| 15:21 | kados: I think that you gave me the 001 but what is the 1XX? | |
| 15:21 | kados | Lewis, C. S. |
| 15:21 | sorry | |
| 15:25 | thd: is the marc21 leader plugin going to work for authorities too? | |
| 15:25 | thd | kados: well, with modification |
| 15:25 | kados | what modification will I need to make? |
| 15:26 | thd | kados: 000/06-07 at the very list are not the same |
| 15:26 | kados | ok ... I'll create a new plugin right now |
| 15:27 | thd | kados: you do not need to know the media type of a person or a concept |
| 15:28 | kados: the starting point should be the bibliographic plugin | |
| 15:28 | kados | yep |
| 15:32 | I wonder why a tag would ever be given an authorized value | |
| 15:41 | owen-away: when you get back ... I'm still having trouble adding an authority type using the npl templates | |
| 15:51 | thd | kados: the default should be 000: #####nz##a22#####o##4500 |
| 15:52 | where # is blank and ought to be filled by MARC::Record for most cases. | |
| 15:52 | s/cases/positions | |
| 15:52 | kados: http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/ecadldrd.html | |
| 15:52 | kados | k |
| 15:53 | thd | kados: The authorised values that you were most likely looking at were for the indicators |
| 15:53 | kados: That is something where more columns are needed | |
| 15:54 | kados | why? |
| 15:54 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?authid=5 | |
| 15:54 | I have cataloged it to the best of my ability given the limitations in the current auth editor | |
| 15:55 | (seems it's in an even worse state than the MARC editor) | |
| 15:55 | thd | kados: More columns to support separation of the indicators, and plugins instead of merely an authorised value list collectively for both independent indicators |
| 15:55 | kados: No one uses it therefore no fixes have been applied | |
| 15:55 | kados | I will fix it :-) |
| 15:56 | ok, so now I will find all books by C.S. Lewis in this collection | |
| 15:56 | and change the author to use the authorized value | |
| 15:57 | thd | kados: paul uses building from the bibliographic record and no one has the time to create their own references and tracings, especially on a buggy editor. |
| 16:00 | kados: remem,ber that the authorised value should be $a Lewis, C. S. $q (Clive Staples), $d 1898-1963 not merely $a Lewis, C. S. | |
| 16:00 | kados | ? |
| 16:01 | I believe that's what I entered | |
| 16:01 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?authid=5 | |
| 16:01 | thd | kados: I was just reminding you about the $a limitation currently. |
| 16:01 | kados | or do you mean that the thesaurus plugin does not currently put in the $q and $d? |
| 16:01 | ahh ... right | |
| 16:01 | so I'll need to fix that | |
| 16:02 | there is so much to fix :/ | |
| 16:02 | how can any library use this? | |
| 16:02 | it baffles me :-) | |
| 16:03 | so first, can tag 100 in a bib record have a $q and a $d? | |
| 16:03 | thd | kados: remember, they are using this where one library is not even using 200 which is the UNIMARC equivalent of 100 |
| 16:04 | kados | ok ... $q and $d added to default MARC framework on koha.liblime.com |
| 16:05 | thd | kados: that library is only entering the statement of responsibility in the title field, which is not supposed to be an authority controlled field. |
| 16:05 | kados | thd: it works! |
| 16:06 | thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?bib=1400 | |
| 16:06 | it filled in $q and $d automatically | |
| 16:06 | !!! | |
| 16:06 | wohooo! | |
| 16:06 | this IS a nice feature :-) | |
| 16:06 | I can't wait to show it to a client :-) | |
| 16:06 | but first we must prettify it :-) | |
| 16:07 | thd | kados: $q and $d are not the only considerations |
| 16:07 | kados | of course not |
| 16:08 | thd | kados: you should not necessarily have it fill every subfield, some could be special |
| 16:09 | kados: sorry I wrote that incorrectly | |
| 16:09 | kados | thd: 100$a should 'search also' 100$q right? |
| 16:10 | thd | kados: you should have it fill every subfield but you may need protection for the value returned used in searches except that it would find $9 and not matter. |
| 16:11 | kados: yes it should but it does not matter if $9 is there and populated. | |
| 16:11 | kados: oh except that the OPAC is not checking authorities. | |
| 16:12 | kados | it can now |
| 16:12 | well ... it will very soon | |
| 16:12 | thd | kados: so until the OPAC always uses authorities for every Koha install those other things are important |
| 16:12 | kados | http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]thorities-home.pl |
| 16:13 | do a search on Lewis | |
| 16:13 | yay, it's working! :-) | |
| 16:15 | thd | kados: you have not adjusted the code enough for the OPAC |
| 16:16 | kados | of course not |
| 16:16 | thd | kados: obviously the edit authority record should become view authority record in MARC |
| 16:16 | kados | yep |
| 16:17 | don't worry, it will :-) | |
| 16:17 | thd | kados: but the 6 bilio link must still be linked to the intranet file |
| 16:17 | kados: I get a file not found for search.pl | |
| 16:18 | kados | 'Used in' is working now |
| 16:18 | owen: http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]thorities-home.pl | |
| 16:18 | owen: search for 'Lewis' | |
| 16:19 | owen | Excellent. Summary and 'used in' both working! |
| 16:20 | thd | owen: Koha may surpass Sirsi while you blink :) |
| 16:21 | kados | I chose CS Lewis because that's such a problematic search currently |
| 16:23 | thd | kados: There are much mre problematic ones than him |
| 16:24 | owen | Funny... the authority search is basically a 'browse' search. |
| 16:24 | thd | kados: He at least has an English name |
| 16:24 | kados: Variant name transliterations are where the worst problems happen without authorised names | |
| 16:25 | kados | owen: it introduces something we don't have currently in collections like NPLs: a relationship between different records |
| 16:26 | owen: once you have an authorities catalog you can start doing all your author searches using the authorities search | |
| 16:26 | owen: same with subjects | |
| 16:26 | owen: so the patron then selects a given author/subject and then they get all the results that have that exact one | |
| 16:27 | thd | kados: Your collections do not seem to be old enough to see what has happened to transliterations of famous Russian names over time. |
| 16:28 | owen | thd: we have problems enough with names like John Le Carre, with or without the accent on the E |
| 16:34 | kados | w00t! |
| 16:34 | 'View Authority Record' now working | |
| 16:35 | http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]thorities-home.pl | |
| 16:42 | owen | ? |
| 16:55 | kados | owen: not working for you? |
| 16:55 | owen | Where is view authority record? |
| 16:56 | kados | search for Lewis |
| 16:56 | needs major template work :-) | |
| 16:56 | owen | Oh, okay. I swear it still said 'edit' last time I looked :) |
| 16:57 | How does this authority stuff fit into the general scheme of the opac? | |
| 16:59 | kados | well it should eventually be on the main search page |
| 16:59 | as a search type | |
| 16:59 | http://authorities.loc.gov/ | |
| 16:59 | that's the goal | |
| 17:00 | also, I think we'll need a syspref for 'OpacSubjectAuthorities' and 'OpacNameAuthorities' | |
| 17:00 | those will let us turn on/off a true authorities search when clicking on a Name in the OPAC | |
| 17:00 | rather than just a normal author search as is done now | |
| 17:01 | (I think in fact that people are surprised when they click on the name now and get results for items without that name) | |
| 17:03 | bbiab | |
| 17:04 | thd | kados: authorities.loc.gov is useful but left anchored searches are a big limitation |
| 18:19 | owen | Long drive ;) |
| 18:20 | kados | heh |
| 18:20 | well I've been here a while actually | |
| 18:20 | having some problems with installing the server | |
| 18:24 | thd: you consorting with the enemy? :-) | |
| 18:25 | thd | kados: yes |
| 18:26 | kados: I cannot get an answer from LC CDS for two weeks now but I want to solve this well | |
| 19:04 | kados: did you see the problem that I was describing on code4lib? | |
| 19:05 | kados: I mean the subject authority problem | |
| 19:09 | kados | no I didn't |
| 19:10 | thd: I'll read my log | |
| 19:13 | thd | kados: more authority records at http://batman.gsu.edu/pineshel[…]nes-authority.mrc |
| 19:13 | kados | thd: I don't see any discussion of problems with subject authorities |
| 19:13 | thd: maybe I didn't read back far enough | |
| 19:13 | thd: yea got that already :-) | |
| 19:13 | thd | kados: busy channel |
| 19:13 | kados | yep |
| 19:14 | this: | |
| 19:14 | I am having trouble finding subdivisions for subject authority records from http://authorities.loc.gov . I find no 180 fields for example only 150. | |
| 19:14 | edsu: I want to find the records with 180 etc. as opposed to 150. | |
| 19:15 | thd | kados: that and posts before and after |
| 19:15 | kados | right |
| 19:15 | I don't quite comprehend the problem | |
| 19:15 | thd | kados: mostly after |
| 19:15 | kados | but I think I see your goal |
| 19:16 | currently Koha's authorities system will only allow you to fill values within a single tag | |
| 19:16 | unless I'm wrong | |
| 19:16 | thd | kados: the problem that I did not relate on code4lib is just what you said. |
| 19:17 | kados | cool |
| 19:17 | I don't think it will be that hard to fix that | |
| 19:17 | thd | kados: With repeatable $9 ? |
| 19:17 | kados | the trick will be how to map which tags in the auth record match which tags in the bib record |
| 19:18 | one way to do it is to hard-code the mapping in the thesaurus plugin | |
| 19:18 | this would probably be the quickest solution | |
| 19:18 | thd | kados: it is multiple authority records for a single bibliographic field with subdivided subjects |
| 19:18 | kados | but long-term I think we would want a way to easily configure it |
| 19:18 | I dont' really understand subjects in marc | |
| 19:21 | so what possible tags in the bib records should get their values from the authority record for subjects? | |
| 19:21 | ie, what is the mapping? | |
| 19:21 | thd | kados: Subjects can be subdivided. in MARC 21 as in UNIMARC. |
| 19:22 | kados: There is a difference in the definition for authority records relating to subjects between MARC 21 and UNIMARC. | |
| 19:24 | kados: MARC 21 seems to specify different authority record types for various subdivisions of the main subject while UNIMARC has just one type of subject authority record no matter how a subject may be subdivided. | |
| 19:25 | kados so given 650 #0$aArchitecture$zIllinois$zChicago$xHistory$vPictorial works. | |
| 19:27 | kados: there ought to be a heading topical term authority using $a in 150 | |
| 19:27 | kados: that much is trivial | |
| 19:28 | kados | hmm |
| 19:30 | thd | kados: then the two $z would be repeated geographic subdivisions in a 150 or maybe two separate 150 authority records. |
| 19:31 | if they were two separate then $z would not be repeated within the 181 | |
| 19:31 | s/150/181/ on the line before | |
| 19:37 | kados: the general subdivision in $x would be in a separate 180 authority record that might include the $y as well, otherwise one more authority record is needed for the $y in a 155 | |
| 19:41 | kados: although I do see that the 155 examples have it all in one such as 155 | |
| 19:41 | ##$aDictionaries$xFrench$y18th century | |
| 19:44 | kados: how do I search a MARC file for the presence of records containing a particular field? | |
| 19:48 | kados | use dumpmarc.pl |
| 19:48 | it's in misc/ directory | |
| 19:48 | dumpmarc.pl -file marc.mrc |more | |
| 19:49 | then you can use the / to search once it's there | |
| 19:52 | thd | ok |
| 19:52 | kados: I may have been looking in the wrong place | |
| 19:53 | kados: I know MARC bibliographic well but I have not spent many years looking at authority records | |
| 19:53 | kados: the answer may be in 7XX rather than 1XX | |
| 20:08 | kados: The question is how to find the correct authority records to match a subdivided subject like the example and I think I know now. | |
| 20:13 | kados: there is also the search help qualification that I had guessed for authorities.loc.gov "This release does not include ... Search access to form, genre, and topical subject subdivisions" | |
| 21:34 | kados: are you around? | |
| 21:55 | kados | thd: I am now |
| 21:55 | thd: just got back from dinner | |
| 21:56 | thd | kados: the pines records do not have the right data for subject subdivisions |
| 21:56 | kados: Do you any from your authorities client? | |
| 21:57 | kados | let me see |
| 21:58 | here is an example: | |
| 21:58 | NUMBER 28 =>LDR 00102nz 2200037o 4500150 0 _aChildren _xPreparation for medical care _xJuvenile literature | |
| 21:59 | another: | |
| 21:59 | NUMBER 32 => | |
| 21:59 | LDR 00089nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 21:59 | 150 0 _aWitchcraft | |
| 21:59 | _zTexas | |
| 21:59 | _zTexas Hill Country | |
| 21:59 | _xFiction | |
| 21:59 | another: | |
| 21:59 | thd | kados: records with type 180, 181,182,185 |
| 21:59 | kados | NUMBER 36 => |
| 21:59 | LDR 00139nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 21:59 | 151 0 _aWest (U.S.) | |
| 21:59 | _xSocial life and customs | |
| 21:59 | _xStudy and teaching | |
| 21:59 | _xActivity programs | |
| 21:59 | _vJuvenile literature | |
| 21:59 | ahh | |
| 21:59 | I see no 180s | |
| 22:00 | thd | kados: although I see $x and $v |
| 22:00 | kados | I still don't fully understand subjects in MARC :-) |
| 22:00 | thd | kados: and $z |
| 22:00 | kados | yep |
| 22:01 | and repeated $x | |
| 22:01 | though I don't really understand the significance of this | |
| 22:01 | or what the expectations are for how an ILS will treat them | |
| 22:03 | thd | kados: I understand LCSH reasonably well for bibliographic records but I have a gap for how that applies perfectly well to authority files. |
| 22:05 | kados: There is someone from Canada on the autocat list who knows systems. | |
| 22:05 | kados: These questions need to be asked Monday through Wednesday to get a good answer | |
| 22:07 | kados: Very few to know systems actually do what we are intending so knowledge about this is scarce. | |
| 22:07 | s/know/no/ | |
| 22:09 | kados: This really could be a great leap forward from how even the most sophisticated systems manage authorities. | |
| 22:09 | kados | cool |
| 22:10 | I've got about 20 minutes of work to do setting up a new cvs repo for openncip | |
| 22:10 | then i intend to spend the rest of the evening on authorities | |
| 22:10 | so bear with me for a bit | |
| 22:10 | thd | kados:I will fetch food |
| 22:23 | kados | hey rach |
| 22:23 | good to hear from you | |
| 23:57 | thd | kados: is your cvs server merely down or are you struggling with how Debian has packaged cvs files? |
| 23:58 | s/files/related software/ | |
| 00:07 | kados | I just can't get the server to bind to the proper port |
| 00:09 | thd | kados: Are you trying to change from the default port? |
| 00:11 | kados | nope |
| 00:11 | s'all good ... I'll just register a new project at SF | |
| 00:11 | i've wasted too much time on it :-) | |
| 00:11 | ok ... so ... authorities | |
| 00:12 | thd | kados: Is it as easy to register at Savannah? |
| 00:13 | kados | I did ... but that was about two weeks ago |
| 00:13 | and I haven't heard back :/ | |
| 00:13 | ok ... first thing I'm going to do is commit my authorities work thusfar | |
| 00:13 | thd | I guess that means it is much more difficult |
| 00:15 | kados: Why not just create a test tag in the Koha cvs? | |
| 00:15 | kados | cause it's for openncip |
| 00:19 | thd | kados: I had confused your authorities work thusfar with opencip |
| 00:21 | will be back shortly | |
| 00:26 | kados | k |
| 01:07 | thd | kados: so I found what may be part of the solution for subject authorities |
| 01:08 | kados: are you still there? | |
| 01:11 | kados: It is necessarily still multiple authorities but I have seen an applicable authority for my example 650 | |
| 01:35 | kados | thd: I'm here |
| 01:35 | thd: been doing some cleaning in rel_2 | |
| 01:35 | so what is the solution (and first, in simple language, what is the problem?) | |
| 01:38 | thd | so it requires subdividing the 1XX |
| 01:38 | kados: chopping it right in the middle | |
| 01:42 | kados | I don't understand what you mean and I don't understand the problem fully |
| 01:44 | there are apparantly 7 types of authority records: | |
| 01:44 | http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Auth0077.htm | |
| 01:46 | thd | kados: now I am off phone |
| 01:46 | kados | though I do see that LOC has 'Title' authorities |
| 01:46 | but I don't see that on the MARC Authorities pages of the Cataloger's reference | |
| 01:47 | thd | kados: uniform tittles and series |
| 01:47 | kados | thd: do you know why LOC has only four 'types'? |
| 01:47 | ahh ... types of headings | |
| 01:48 | thd | kados: by LOC you mean authorities.loc.gov ? |
| 01:48 | kados | yep |
| 01:48 | so should Koha support all types of headings? | |
| 01:48 | thd | kados: there is also the search help qualification that I had guessed for authorities.loc.gov "This release does not include ... Search access to form, genre, and topical subject subdivisions" |
| 01:49 | Koha should support authorities completely. | |
| 01:49 | kados | we currently don't distinguish between established and unestablished headings |
| 01:49 | i don't think | |
| 01:50 | thd | kados: by established you mean authority controlled and not authority controlled? |
| 01:51 | for established and not established? | |
| 01:53 | kados: what are you distinguishing with established and unestablished? | |
| 01:54 | kados: authority control applied, NACO heading used, authorised form used, or something else? | |
| 01:55 | kados | Established heading: A heading that is authorized for use in other MARC records as a main entry (1XX), added entry (700-730), or series added entry (440 or 800-830) field or as the lead element in a subject access (600-655; 654-657) field. |
| 01:55 | Unestablished heading: A heading that is not authorized for use in other MARC records as the lead element of a main, added, series, or subject access field. An unestablished heading may be a reference to a variant form of the established heading, a form of the heading used only for authority file organizational purposes, or a subject subdivision that is authorized for use with an established heading in an extended subject heading. | |
| 01:55 | http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/auth1532.htm | |
| 01:59 | is the unestablished heading where the 'see also' comes from? | |
| 02:00 | thd | kados: I believe that is a distinction between a heading conforming to the cooperative authorities database maintained by NACO for most AACR2 users and a local system heading |
| 02:01 | kados | but it says that 'An unestablished heading may be a reference to a variant form of the established heading' |
| 02:03 | thd | kados: well can you find an unestablished heading in records that you have? |
| 02:03 | kados | no |
| 02:03 | thd | kados: did you search for one already? |
| 02:06 | kados | no :-) |
| 02:08 | I wouldn't know how to look for that | |
| 02:15 | thd | Iam trying to construct the regeex for the MARC dump but it stops one character past the 008 |
| 02:15 | kados: does vim not use greedy matching? | |
| 02:17 | kados: I already have my 17k copy of pines authorities open but you could use grep | |
| 02:18 | kados: or awk or Perl if you like | |
| 02:23 | kados: in any case you want to find the tenth position past ^008 and then [find whatever the confused documentation claims is correct] | |
| 02:23 | the tenth position is 008/09 | |
| 02:26 | kados: well reading the documentation more closely, using the heading as the lead element is an established heading. | |
| 02:27 | kados: searching 008 is no help in that case since about every possibility applies | |
| 02:27 | kados: established headings start with $a | |
| 02:28 | kados: unestablshed headings do not start with $a | |
| 02:29 | kados: The lead element used for an authorised heading is always $a | |
| 02:32 | kados: I had forgotten to escape my \+ in vim. Why cannot every program agree on the one true regex standard? | |
| 02:34 | kados: If you have the following regex in your MARC dump then you have an unestablished heading | |
| 02:36 | kados: ^[14]\d\d....[^a] | |
| 02:37 | kados: that matches nothing in the pines authority file | |
| 02:38 | kados: oops should have been ^[14]\d\d...._[^a] | |
| 02:38 | typo | |
| 02:39 | as I originally typed it also matched nothing | |
| 02:40 | kados: you do however have extended subject headings | |
| 02:40 | kados | is that grep ^[14]\d\d...._[^a] AUTH.mrc ? |
| 02:41 | if so I have none | |
| 02:42 | thd | kados: yes that regex is grep compatible |
| 02:44 | kados: although do you not need grep /regex/ AUTH.mrc with the '/' for using a regex instead of a string match? | |
| 02:51 | kados: this will find your extended subject records with a vim regex ^[147]\d\d...._a[^_]\+\n[^_]\+_[vzxy] | |
| 02:52 | kados: grep probably does not need escaping the \+ but I do not no if it can match across the newline | |
| 02:54 | kados: there is an easier search for 008 that should match those in 1XX | |
| 03:03 | kados can you find any matches for ^008..............[^a] ? | |
| 03:04 | kados: I have no matches for the previous regex they are all for ^008..............[a] | |
| 03:05 | kados: which means that every record is an established heading record | |
| 03:07 | kados: are you still awake? I can tell you how this would work in my 650 example with architecture in Chicago | |
| 03:08 | kados | I'm here and listening |
| 03:08 | thd | kados so given 650 #0$aArchitecture$zIllinois$zChicago$xHistory$vPictorial works. |
| 03:09 | kados: If we want to create that record ... | |
| 03:10 | kados: we search for architecture history | |
| 03:10 | kados: you can succeed in finding that at authorities.loc.gov | |
| 03:10 | kados | lets actually do it in Koha |
| 03:11 | isn't that 'history of architecture'? | |
| 03:11 | 'in illinois and chicago'? | |
| 03:11 | thd | kados: yet we do not have the authority records there although we could create them |
| 03:11 | kados | lets create them |
| 03:11 | thd | ok |
| 03:12 | kados: what is the test server? | |
| 03:12 | kados | go ahead and use koha.liblime.com |
| 03:12 | or koha2.liblime.com | |
| 03:12 | (but if you use koha2.liblime.com it will not be in the live demo | |
| 03:13 | and also, I haven't fully fixed authorities on koha2.liblime.com | |
| 03:13 | thd | kados: well let us see if it will work where you have fixed them |
| 03:13 | kados | k |
| 03:14 | thd | kados: this cannot work yet. |
| 03:14 | kados: this requires 3 authority records | |
| 03:15 | kados: I will create the first one and describe what should happen where the second and later ones should be used | |
| 03:15 | kados | why three? |
| 03:17 | thd | There is no single authority record for $aArchitecture$zIllinois$zChicago$xHistory$vPictorial works. except maybe in UNIMARC authorities where there is only one type of subject authority |
| 03:17 | kados: That is built from information contained in 3 authority records | |
| 03:19 | kados: we can build all the required authority records but a change is needed to manage all 3 | |
| 03:19 | within a single 650 for the bibliographic record | |
| 03:20 | kados: shall I build the 3 authority record that would be needed? | |
| 03:21 | kados: or should I describe the process and then build them? | |
| 03:22 | kados | describe the process first |
| 03:22 | thd | kados: ok |
| 03:23 | kados: so the first record needed is 150 $aArchitecture$xHistory | |
| 03:24 | kados: Koha can now add both subfields to the 650 in the bibliographic record and link with $9 to the authority record | |
| 03:25 | the framework may need $x for 150 if it is not here yet | |
| 03:26 | kados: so I fill 650 with $aArchitecture$xHistory | |
| 03:26 | kados | ok |
| 03:26 | why not with $aArchitecture$zIllinois$zChicago$xHistory$vPictorial works.? | |
| 03:26 | thd | kados: now for the fun and confusion |
| 03:26 | kados | (really, you don't fill 650, you fill 150, right? |
| 03:27 | thd | kados: there is no such complete authority in the NACO database |
| 03:28 | kados: I believe that if NACO worked the way UNIMARC authorities must do that would be there in an authority record | |
| 03:29 | s/NACO/MARC 21 authorities | |
| 03:30 | kados: Instead we move our field position location to between the $a and $x in the 650 | |
| 03:31 | kados | wait ... I'm confused |
| 03:32 | where in the auth record are you storing the values? | |
| 03:54 | thd | kados: I will repost what only the ether saw |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: so right in the middle of $aArchitecture [right here] $xHistory we need a link to add more | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: actually we should have links before and after every subject subfield if not for many other types of fields as well | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: so now we will add the geographic subdivision in the correct place after $a | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: so we search for Chicago (ill.) | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: and we find it but instead of adding 151 $aChicago (Ill.) | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: in that same 151 geographic authority record is the form when used as a geographic subdivision | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: that appears as 781 $zIllinois$zChicago in that same 151 $aChicago (Ill.) authority record | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: so the system must know from the context when we are filling for a subdivision | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: then it will use the 7XX form | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados now we have 650 #0$aArchitecture$zIllinois$zChicago$xHistory with one more subfield to go and who knows how the authority records is tracked except by one $9 for each subfield applied | |
| 03:55 | <thd> so we go to the end of the subfield and search for picture books or something as a form subdivision | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: and it returns the form subdivision that is not searchable at authorities.loc.gov | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: that should been end of th field after the $x not end of the subfield one line above | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: our search returns the form subdivision authority 185 $vPictorial works | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: we append that to the end and we are done | |
| 03:55 | <thd> kados: the system probably has to supply the final full stop to the last subfield | |
| 03:57 | kados | hmmm |
| 03:58 | I think what you describe is possible in Koha | |
| 03:59 | but I'm not sure why or how to fully use it | |
| 03:59 | thd | kados: from your question 650 in the bibliographic record was filled from 3 different types of authority records 150 topical, 151 geographic, and 185 for subdivision |
| 03:59 | kados | ie, why would you _ever_ want three separate subject authority records for a single biblio? |
| 04:00 | those three are separate records? | |
| 04:00 | (are they separate _types_ of subject auth records?) | |
| 04:01 | thd | kados: You would want the UNIMARC way if you were designing this from nothing but we have NACO with MARC 21 authorities |
| 04:01 | kados: yes those were three separate authority records | |
| 04:02 | kados: before we say that MARC 21 is all bad consider this problem | |
| 04:03 | kados: UNIMARC authorities would need a system generating all possible authority records n advance or require the user to build them when they are missing much the way we would have done to fill our biblio in this example | |
| 04:06 | kados: MARC 21 systems will match against the pre-existing supply of 650 fields in biblio records but there are no authority records for very many common cases. | |
| 04:07 | kados: 3 authority records referenced would be uncommon but 2 would be common. | |
| 04:08 | 3 would not be unusual merely not prevalent | |
| 04:12 | kados: having a $9 for each subfield could work with quite a bit of code change | |
| 04:12 | kados: so you would have 5 $9 linking to 3 authority records for my example | |
| 04:13 | kados | hmmm |
| 04:13 | right now it is only possible to have a single authority record for a single bib tag ... right? | |
| 04:14 | that's what you're saying? | |
| 04:14 | thd | kados: yes |
| 04:14 | kados | I think you're also saying that it's only possible to have an authority record add values within a single tag -- whereas it should allow us to add values outside of a given tag |
| 04:14 | right? | |
| 04:16 | thd | kados you mean outside of a single subfield do you not? |
| 04:17 | kados | no ... because currently it will already add multiple values within a single tag |
| 04:17 | ie if I have a subject authority that contains $a and $x in 150 | |
| 04:17 | when I add it to the 650 | |
| 04:17 | it will populate $a and $x | |
| 04:18 | take a look at the auth record for Lewis, C. S. | |
| 04:18 | to see that in action | |
| 04:18 | (well ... look at the linked bib records off of that auth record) | |
| 04:18 | you can do so from the opac now | |
| 04:18 | opac.liblime.com | |
| 04:19 | thd | kados: I understand that you made that change earlier and that is all that is needed for the easy non-subject authorities |
| 04:19 | kados | the first thing I must do |
| 04:20 | is to fix the authorities editor | |
| 04:20 | so it is at least on par with the bib record editor | |
| 04:20 | thd | kados: that will also work for about half of subject fields maybe even a little more than that in the world of bibliographic records. |
| 04:20 | kados | so that's good ... but I think we can do better |
| 04:21 | but like I said, let me see how paul has it set up now | |
| 04:22 | thd | kados: so this is for the subject headings of all the interesting books and all the extremely boring books unless you are specialist in whatever and find them extremely interesting |
| 04:23 | kados: there is another aspect of how paul has it set up | |
| 04:24 | kados: Currently geographic 151 authority records would go with 651 subject headings but we needed to use them in our 650 as well. | |
| 04:25 | kados: The framework design would need extension to accommodate that change | |
| 04:26 | kados: Did you get enough funding for the generalised solution? | |
| 04:27 | kados | I still don't know what the generalized solution is :-) |
| 04:27 | thd | kados: I just gave it to you in a vague directional outline |
| 04:28 | kados | I'm still digesting it :-) |
| 04:29 | thd | kados: the thing troubles me is dividing $a from $x derived from a single 150 when adding the geographic qualification |
| 04:32 | kados | I don't quite understand that (having trouble parsing that sentence) |
| 04:32 | you mean that we currently have to divide $a from $x because of Koha's limitations? | |
| 04:32 | or that we should be able to divide them but Koha can't? | |
| 04:34 | thd | kados: It does not seem much of a great problem in the bibliographic record editor |
| 04:38 | kados: but when using bulkauthimport.pl to match the 150 $aArchitecture$xHistory to a record that had divided those two subfields with a geographic subdivision seems understandable but requires a level of search matching that requires extra thought. | |
| 04:40 | kados: I mean when importing authorities to set up $9 for records that do not have $9 yet and for newly copy catalogued bibliographic records | |
| 04:47 | kados: just to be clear separating $a from $x follows the practise used in existing records. My description had removed all the limitations from Koha. | |
| 04:50 | kados | thd: let's examine build_authorities.pl |
| 04:51 | thd: and make one that works for koha.liblime.com | |
| 04:51 | BEFORE RUNNING this script, you MUST edit it & adapt the %whattodo hash to fit your needs. It contains : | |
| 04:51 | * as key, the code of the authority to be created. It's the one you've choosen (or will choose) in Koha >> parameters >> thesaurus structure >> add). It can be whatever you want. NP/CO/NG/TI/NC in CVS refers to UNIMARC french RAMEAU category codes. | |
| 04:51 | * in values a sub-hash with the following values : | |
| 04:51 | \ttaglist : the list of MARC tags using this authority | |
| 04:51 | \tkey : the list of MARC subfields used as key for authority. 2 entries in biblio having the same key will be considered as the same. | |
| 04:51 | \tother : the list of MARC subfields not used as key, but to be copied in authority. | |
| 04:51 | thd | kados:do you men the poor man's way? :) |
| 04:51 | kados | \tauthtag : the field in authority that will be reported in biblio. Remember that all subfields in tag "authtag" will be reported in the same subfield of the biblio (in MARC tags that are in "taglist") |
| 04:51 | don't forget to define the itemfield. In UNIMARC, it should be 995, in MARC21, probably 852 | |
| 04:52 | yea | |
| 04:52 | I just want it to work on the demo | |
| 04:52 | (for now) | |
| 04:52 | so it doesn't seem like a broken feature :-) | |
| 04:52 | so we have two codes right now: | |
| 04:52 | SUBJECT | |
| 04:52 | AUTHOR | |
| 04:52 | should we create others? | |
| 04:53 | thd | kados: that script combined with bulkmarcimport.pl would be the starting point for bulkauthimport.pl as the existing code in bulkauthimport.pl is useless. |
| 04:53 | kados | right |
| 04:54 | thd | kados: we should also have UNIFORMTITLE |
| 04:54 | kados | # the list of MARC tags using this authority |
| 04:54 | taglist => "700|701|702", | |
| 04:54 | # the list of MARC subfields used as key for authority. 2 entries in biblio having the same key will be considered as the same. | |
| 04:54 | key => "a|b|c|d|f|x|y|z", | |
| 04:54 | # the list of MARC subfields not used as key, but to be copied in authority. | |
| 04:54 | other => "j", # the field in authority that will be reported in biblio. Remember that all subfields in tag "authtag" will be reported in the same subfield of the biblio (in MARC tags that are in "taglist") | |
| 04:54 | authtag => "200", | |
| 04:54 | do you understand what 'other' is? | |
| 04:55 | thd | kados: and SERIESTITLE |
| 04:55 | kados | (notice also that multiple tags can be specified in 'taglist' |
| 04:55 | thd | kados: where is the 'other' ? |
| 04:56 | kados | # the list of MARC subfields not |
| 04:56 | used as key, but to be copied in authority. | |
| 04:56 | 23:53 < kados> other => "j", | |
| 04:59 | thd: notice the last one in the has has comments that I pasted above | |
| 04:59 | thd | kados: what cvs dir is this in? |
| 05:00 | kados | misc/migration_tools |
| 05:00 | thd: what bib tags should use a SUBJECT authority? | |
| 05:00 | I know 650 ... but what others? | |
| 05:01 | thd: ? | |
| 05:01 | thd | kados 6XX except that we actually have multiple types of subject authorities even for $a |
| 05:02 | so 150 fills 650 $a for topical headings | |
| 05:03 | 151 fills 651 $a for geographic headings | |
| 05:05 | 100 fills 600 $a for personal name subject headings | |
| 05:05 | kados | so it seems like we need a different authority framework for each of these |
| 05:06 | thd | 110 fills 610 $a for corporate name subject headings |
| 05:06 | kados | but the problem is, there is no way to search across multiple authority frameworks is there? |
| 05:06 | so lets make a quick list of all the types of headings we'll need | |
| 05:06 | thd | kados: In what contest are you wanting to search across multiple subject headings |
| 05:07 | kados | I don't know yet |
| 05:07 | lets just get the data in and then we can see what it does :-) | |
| 05:07 | cause frankly I'm still confused by how subjects are supposed to work | |
| 05:07 | should we do a minimal test case? | |
| 05:08 | thd | kados: under current behaviour if you are filling 650 it will or should only search 150 authorities |
| 05:08 | although it needs to search others for subdivisions | |
| 05:08 | kados | thd: do you know what 'other' is for in the hash? |
| 05:09 | here is what I have so far: | |
| 05:09 | SUBJECT => { taglist => "650", | |
| 05:09 | key => "a|i|x|k|l|m|n|q|y|z", | |
| 05:09 | other => "", | |
| 05:09 | authtag => "150", | |
| 05:09 | }, | |
| 05:09 | AUTHOR => { | |
| 05:09 | taglist => "100", | |
| 05:09 | key => "a|b|c|d|f|x|y|z", | |
| 05:09 | other => "j", | |
| 05:09 | authtag => "100", | |
| 05:09 | }, | |
| 05:09 | thd | kados: I was looking for that when you pinged about the subsequent question for the multiple frameworks needed |
| 05:09 | kados | thd: what do I put in 'other' |
| 05:09 | thd: and what subfields should 650 have and what subfields should 100 have? | |
| 05:11 | thd | easy answer first |
| 05:11 | 650 should have at least $a $z $x $y $v | |
| 05:14 | kados: both are easy after reading | |
| 05:15 | except maybe I will read some more to be sure I am right | |
| 05:15 | kados: did you see an example from UNIMARC? | |
| 05:16 | kados: an example of the key and an example of the other? | |
| 05:17 | kados: I see an example and now check the UNIMARC documentation | |
| 05:20 | kados: having checked the UNIMARC documentation the other used in the example makes no sense | |
| 05:21 | kados: other should be empty or a numeric field | |
| 05:21 | s/field/subfield/ | |
| 05:21 | kados | I'm running it right now on just SUBJECT |
| 05:21 | with other as empty | |
| 05:22 | thd | kados: the example shows a key for an or boolean operating on all letter subfields |
| 05:25 | kados: I imagine it will be awhile building 650 for your 50k records :) | |
| 05:26 | kados | thd: it's not creating 'summary' |
| 05:26 | I wonder if that's what 'other' is for | |
| 05:26 | thd | kados: other is for excluded subfields |
| 05:27 | kados: other is empty in most examples given for UNIMARC | |
| 05:28 | kados | thd: http://opac.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]thorities-home.pl |
| 05:28 | thd | kados: summary is for the framework not the authority records themselves |
| 05:28 | kados | thd: do a search on Frontier |
| 05:30 | summary isn't getting populated for some reason | |
| 05:31 | thd | kados: maybe the templates were not fixed on this system or summary was empty all along for the subject authority framework |
| 05:32 | osmoze | hello |
| 05:33 | kados | hi osmoze |
| 05:33 | osmoze: are you familiar with paul's authorities system? | |
| 05:36 | osmoze | not really |
| 05:36 | thd | kados: it seems to be working well except for the value of the 1XX from the authority to appear in the template |
| 05:37 | kados | ? |
| 05:37 | ahh ... you mean the summary | |
| 05:37 | I have no idea why it's not | |
| 05:37 | since it is set up the same way as NAME | |
| 05:38 | thd | kados: summary actually was from the authority framework originally |
| 05:39 | kados | ? |
| 05:39 | what do you mean? | |
| 05:39 | thd | kados: I see that for Lewis, C.S. only 100 $a appears in the summary column |
| 05:39 | kados | right, but I could change that |
| 05:39 | what else do you want to show up there? | |
| 05:40 | thd: ? | |
| 05:40 | thd | kados: summary is a framework column, it is not the right name for what ought to be called the authorised heading column |
| 05:41 | or something like authorised heading | |
| 05:41 | kados | ok I'll change it |
| 05:41 | what fields should show up for the NAMES authorized heading? | |
| 05:41 | thd | kados: summary as a column may have been mean to show the framework type originally |
| 05:42 | kados | $a $q $d according to LOC |
| 05:42 | ok ... they should show up now | |
| 05:43 | thd | kados: more than that although that was there in the case of CS Lewis |
| 05:44 | kados: there is some code for cremating the correct HTML in Biblio.pm that can be adapted from 6XX use | |
| 05:46 | kados: that will capture all the subfields in that may be present in the correct order. | |
| 05:48 | kados | thd: got it! |
| 05:48 | thd: so lets talk about what the authorized heading should look like for SUBJECT | |
| 05:48 | what subfields should it have in what order? | |
| 05:54 | thd | kados well that is easy do not need to even change the code really |
| 05:55 | kados: you do not inform the system what order the subfields should be in you read that from the system | |
| 05:55 | s/from the system/from the record/ | |
| 05:55 | kados | we don't have that choice unfortunately |
| 05:56 | thd | kados we do have a choice and the code is already written |
| 06:01 | sorry not Biblio.pm but SearchMarc.pm | |
| 06:01 | kados: getMARCsubjects | |
| 06:04 | kados | ok ... |
| 06:04 | so the authorized heading should be built using that SQL? | |
| 06:05 | thd | kados: obviously you need only one known 6XX to match one authority framework starting at $a |
| 06:05 | kados | that will require re-writing paul's use of ISBD for display of the authorized heading |
| 06:06 | thd | kados: oh yes the whole ISBD system in Koha is backwards |
| 06:07 | kados | :-) |
| 06:07 | how so? | |
| 06:07 | thd | kados: everything throughout Koha should follow the model of getMARCsubjects |
| 06:08 | kados | for display you mean |
| 06:08 | thd | kados: order should be read from the record not set by the system |
| 06:09 | kados | before we start that ... what should the subfields be for a NAME authorities record? |
| 06:09 | so I can restart the batch process | |
| 06:10 | then I will take a look at ISBD | |
| 06:10 | thd | kados: the system should only display which fields and subfields are included not their relative order within a field or repeated set of fields |
| 06:14 | abcdefghjklmnopqrstvxyz | |
| 06:14 | kados | thd: are you getting that from here: |
| 06:15 | http://www.loc.gov/marc/author[…]head.html#mrca100 | |
| 06:15 | ? | |
| 06:15 | thd | kados: well that is one place but most of those would never be found in a record |
| 06:18 | kados: abcqd are the most common | |
| 06:19 | with e for good measure | |
| 06:19 | kados | do all of the heading types listed on that page corospond to the tags in bibliographic records? |
| 06:19 | ie, do they map exactly? | |
| 06:20 | thd | kados: it is a one to many mapping |
| 06:21 | kados | er? |
| 06:21 | so you mean that tag 100 in an authority record maps to may bib record tags? | |
| 06:22 | thd | kados: authority 100 maps to bibliographic 100, 600, 700 commonly and maybe others less commonly |
| 06:23 | kados | but the value in 100 and 600 and 700 is always the same right? |
| 06:23 | it's that problem of MARC not being normalized? | |
| 06:23 | (ie, the same value is in three places) | |
| 06:24 | thd | kados: not the same value in the same record unless it is an autobiography |
| 06:24 | kados: and then there would be no 700 | |
| 06:25 | kados | so it only goes in one place then |
| 06:25 | how do we know which place it goes in? | |
| 06:26 | ie, personal names ... do they always go in 100 $a? | |
| 06:26 | thd | kados: authority 100 is for a personal name and goes in at least 100, 600, and 700 if applicable for that bibliographic material being catalogued |
| 06:27 | kados | so it _does_ put the same value in multiple places |
| 06:27 | thd | kados: 700 is for an additional author if there is a co-author |
| 06:28 | kados | http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/ecadintr.html |
| 06:28 | thd | kados: the same value would only be the case where the author 100 and the subject 600 were the same |
| 06:28 | kados | thd: so should we have a separate authority type for each individual type? |
| 06:28 | ie for name there are many types: | |
| 06:28 | * Personal names (X00) | |
| 06:28 | * Corporate names(X10) | |
| 06:28 | * Meeting names (X11) | |
| 06:28 | * Names of jurisdictions (X51) | |
| 06:28 | * Uniform titles (X30) | |
| 06:28 | * Name/title combinations | |
| 06:28 | thd | kados: yes |
| 06:29 | kados | should we try to pack them all into NAME? or should they all be separate authority types? |
| 06:29 | thd | what is NAME? ? |
| 06:29 | kados | http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/ecadintr.html |
| 06:29 | NAME would be a higher-level grouping of all of those types | |
| 06:30 | and SUBJECT would be a higher-level grouping of the types: | |
| 06:30 | * Chronological terms (X48) | |
| 06:30 | * Topical terms (X50) | |
| 06:30 | * Geographic names (X51) | |
| 06:30 | * Names with subject subdivisions | |
| 06:30 | * Terms and names used as subject subdivisions | |
| 06:31 | thd | kados: name is an authority concept that is not helpful to OPAC users |
| 06:31 | kados | or should all of those types have their own auth types? |
| 06:31 | thd | kados: OPAC users often expect to search all author types or all title types |
| 06:32 | kados: although it can be useful for searching names as subjects | |
| 06:33 | kados | so we need 'auth group' |
| 06:33 | so we can group together the individual types for searching | |
| 06:33 | thd | kados: so name authorities can be useful to OPAC users |
| 06:34 | kados: this grouping that you are describing is not part of Koha now is it? | |
| 06:34 | kados | no |
| 06:35 | thd | kados: except for branches |
| 06:35 | kados | how do we tell when to put the values from 100 into 600 and 700? |
| 06:35 | thd | kados: in what context? |
| 06:36 | kados: for bulkauthimport.pl ? | |
| 06:36 | kados | yes |
| 06:36 | (so I will delete NAME and SUBJECT and create the many types i listed above ... sound right to you?) | |
| 06:38 | thd | kados: you search each 100, 600, 700 in the bibliographic record for a matching 100 authority record or the other way around |
| 06:39 | kados: yes we need several types in the current flat arrangement that could be hierarchical with a few more columns for the framework | |
| 06:42 | kados: I had thought that there may have been a problem with build_authorities.pl not showing the subject because the key had an or connector. Try building where the key is only 'a'. | |
| 06:44 | kados | thd: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]dmin/authtypes.pl |
| 06:44 | thd: does that look right? | |
| 06:44 | thd: is that what you had in mind? | |
| 06:47 | thd: ? | |
| 06:48 | thd | kados: series is missing |
| 06:48 | kados | I don't see it in the concise authorities list |
| 06:50 | thd | kados: no and I do not see jurisdiction name |
| 06:51 | kados: there is genre/form though | |
| 06:51 | kados | http://www.loc.gov/marc/authority/ecadintr.html |
| 06:51 | Names of Jursdictions | |
| 06:51 | and also very tired | |
| 06:54 | thd | kados: authority uniform tile must also be used for series title when applied to the bibliographic record |
| 06:56 | kados | I will have to continue working on this tomorrow |
| 06:57 | I still don't understand how our framework even comes close to providing what we need | |
| 06:57 | but we can discuss it tomorrow :-) | |
| 06:57 | good night thd | |
| 06:57 | thd | kados: that name jurisdiction is what the geographic name is mapped to but I think it only need the 151 geographic name authority unless we need one authority type for every controlled bibliographic field |
| 06:58 | kados: you never had so much fun | |
| 06:58 | kados: the fun will be spoilt if you are tired though :) | |
| 06:59 | kados: I will see you at some mutually awake hour which will probably not still be the morning :) | |
| 06:59 | good night kados |
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