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All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:20 | |hdl| | hi kados |
| 12:21 | hi owen | |
| 12:22 | owen | Hi hdl |
| 12:22 | |hdl| | kados : my new overduenotice would send mail twice. On for borowers'branch" and one for default branch if a default policy is defined. |
| 12:32 | owen | Is everyone else getting a bunch of duplicate mailings from Koha-cvs? |
| 12:40 | kados | yea, it looks like it to me |
| 12:40 | there are definitely major mailing list probs at savannah | |
| 12:40 | some messages posted to koha-devel about 4 days ago haven't made it through yet | |
| 12:41 | |hdl|: congrats on the new home :-) | |
| 12:41 | |hdl|: any pics? | |
| 12:42 | |hdl| | not yet :) Still working on latest touch and on getting my office in our home. |
| 12:58 | kados | btw: I committed what I think is a fully bug free MARChtml2xml subroutine this morning |
| 12:58 | I believe for the first time ever we have a valid MARC editor :-) | |
| 13:04 | thd | hooraaay |
| 13:04 | great work kados and chris | |
| 13:06 | kados: are you there? | |
| 13:07 | kados | thd: yep |
| 13:09 | thd: thanks for your email re: cataloger's desktop content | |
| 13:10 | I'll wait a couple of days to see if I hear back from them | |
| 13:10 | if I don't I'll ping you for those emails :-) | |
| 14:59 | owen | kados: did you get a chance to look at that javascript I mentioned last night? |
| 15:22 | kados | owen: I didn't ... could you give me the link again? |
| 15:23 | thd: are you there? | |
| 15:23 | owen | Heres the page that has an example of it: http://www.sitepoint.com/artic[…]markup-javascript |
| 15:24 | And this I think is the official write-up: http://www.scottandrew.com/web[…]ticles/cbs-events | |
| 15:24 | kados | ooh, that does look nice |
| 15:25 | esp for the MARC editor | |
| 15:25 | owen | I don't fully understand it, but it looks very useful for instances where we want more than one onload event |
| 15:25 | kados | yea ... |
| 15:26 | my personal preference is to test the method | |
| 15:26 | like the OPAC does | |
| 15:27 | I don't have any clients using browsers other than firefox on the Intranet | |
| 15:27 | so I'm kinda ok with firefox-specific stuff there | |
| 15:27 | and eventually, the Intranet will probably be a firefox plugin anyeay | |
| 15:27 | anyway even | |
| 15:30 | does that make sense? or am I missing the point? :) | |
| 15:37 | owen | Like I said, I don't really fully understand what the addEvent function does in the small details, because it's a little over my head. |
| 15:37 | I'm not sure the advantages of it vs. your kohajs() function | |
| 15:49 | kados | thd: I've got a question for you if you're around |
| 15:50 | thd | yes kados |
| 15:52 | kados: I am here | |
| 15:52 | kados | thd: I've got a client who has some records in an excell spreadsheet (title, author, etc) |
| 15:52 | thd: and they are interested in doing conversion on them to full MARC records (properly cataloged, etc.) | |
| 15:53 | thd | kados: That sounds like fun |
| 15:53 | kados | thd: i know I could probably find a jobber to do this ... but thought you might be interested |
| 15:53 | thd | kados: how many records are there |
| 15:53 | ? | |
| 15:53 | kados | thd: less than 1000 I think |
| 15:55 | thd | kados: are they too obscure to be in LC, MELVYL, etc.? |
| 15:56 | kados | thd: 90% of them will be |
| 15:56 | but there may be a few that will require original cataloging | |
| 15:57 | thd: I think you should propose a pricing structure to me | |
| 15:57 | thd: based on whether the record is known or requires original cataloging | |
| 15:57 | thd: if you're interested | |
| 15:58 | thd: ie, X ammount if the record can be downloaded, Y amount if it must be cataloged from scratch | |
| 15:58 | thd | kados: we could script the 90% and try to do a better job than your previous script had done. |
| 15:58 | kados: What level of cataloguing do they need? | |
| 15:59 | kados | thd: they don't know the first thing about it |
| 15:59 | thd | kados: Do they already have call numbers? |
| 15:59 | kados | thd: so you'd need to make a recommendation |
| 15:59 | thd: don't think so | |
| 16:00 | thd | kados: Do they want call numbers? |
| 16:00 | kados | I assume yes |
| 16:00 | it would be part of this job to make recommendations about this to them | |
| 16:00 | as an agent of LibLime :-) | |
| 16:00 | (a secret agent I might add :-)) | |
| 16:00 | thd | kados: LCC, DDC, UDC, or something else? |
| 16:01 | kados | thd: you'd have to pick one I think, but I suspect DDC |
| 16:02 | thd | kados: I am always happy to hide in the shadowland for LibLime. |
| 16:02 | kados | :-) |
| 16:03 | thd | kados: you should get the world to convert to LCC because DDC is proprietary. |
| 16:03 | kados | thd: i didn't know that |
| 16:03 | thd: anyway, if you can give me some figures (ie, money) I will respond to the client | |
| 16:04 | thd | kados: OCLC bought Forrest press several years ago and has been the mean owner of DDC ever since then. |
| 16:12 | kados: what kind of time-line do they need? | |
| 16:13 | kados | thd: asap i think |
| 16:13 | hi tim | |
| 16:13 | thd: I need an answer today | |
| 16:13 | thd: work might start in a week or so | |
| 16:13 | thd | kados: you mean before next week. |
| 16:14 | kados | thd: they are also wondering how long it would take (ie a rate of X number of records per day, etc.) |
| 16:14 | thd: sure, if it will take you that long to come up with an answer :-) | |
| 16:14 | tim: ready for patron images in the Intranet? | |
| 16:14 | tim: I'm getting ready to install them right now | |
| 16:14 | tim | hi kados |
| 16:15 | kados: Any time is fine with me. | |
| 16:15 | thd | kados: I was last cataloguing 50 records a day but that was archival cataloguing with lots of careful checking of things. |
| 18:09 | kados; you sent the file to library at agogme.com instead of liblime at agogme.com but I managed to just avoid bouncing messages. | |
| 18:13 | kados | thd: oops ... sorry :-) |
| 18:13 | thd: unfortunately, this client is very impatient for an answer :-) | |
| 18:14 | thd | kados: no worry, all is safe. |
| 18:14 | kados | thd: how did you trip to the Bank go? :-) |
| 18:14 | thd: good | |
| 18:14 | thd | kados: everything is fine |
| 18:18 | kados: are you still there? | |
| 18:33 | kados | thd: ok ... I'm back |
| 19:15 | tim | Is anyone working on an AJAX circ interface? |
| 19:15 | kados | we've toyed with the idea |
| 19:16 | it would require pretty much a complete rewrite of the intranet scripts | |
| 19:16 | maybe even some new routines in the modules | |
| 19:16 | in any case, it would be an expensive job :-) | |
| 20:58 | thd | kados: authorities matching for UNIMARC in $3 which paul adapted for Koha in $9 would normally match a standard national set of authority records control numbers using $3 if my presumption is correct. |
| 20:59 | kados | thd: so how does it work with USMARC? |
| 20:59 | thd: there must be some way for the authority list to map to the record | |
| 21:00 | thd | kados: USMARC or MARC 21 systems usually use string matching which may seem crazy but that is how it is done. |
| 21:01 | chris | eeewww |
| 21:01 | thd | kados: UNIMARC had the advantage of coming later to do some things much better. |
| 21:01 | kados | wow, that is crazy |
| 21:01 | thd | chris: string matching is fun :) |
| 21:01 | chris | computationally intensive though |
| 21:02 | thd | The only way to set up proper authorities at least initially in a MARC 21 system is string matching. |
| 21:02 | chris | right |
| 21:03 | thd | chris: It is computationally intensive but authority files change infrequently so that is not as bad as it might seem at first. |
| 21:03 | chris | good point |
| 21:04 | thd | chris: But eeewww is right. UNIMARC does it better. |
| 21:05 | kados | so first and foremost we need a way to do that |
| 21:05 | cause as far as I know there isn't one now | |
| 21:06 | thd | paul's use of $9 guarantees that it will work on any MARC system the same way. |
| 21:06 | kados | but how do we take an authorities file from a client and import it so that the client's records use it? |
| 21:07 | (not new records, but already existing records)? | |
| 21:07 | thd | the only problem with what paul has done is that it only retrieves and fills the value for $a from the authority record. |
| 21:10 | kados: you read the field containing the authorised heading and search all bibliographic records for the use of that heading in the relevant fields to match the authority type then add a matching $9 with the record control number for the authority. | |
| 21:10 | kados | I guess that's not _too_ bad |
| 21:11 | thd | kados: different authority types use different feds for the authorised heading. |
| 21:12 | kados: the problem comes with subject authorities. | |
| 21:13 | kados: If you had all the authority records from LC you would not have every possible permutation of subdivisions in a different authority record. | |
| 21:14 | kados | but I assume if a client gives me bib data with an authority file it's going to match up |
| 21:15 | thd | kados: In that case only $a is guaranteed an authority record, although, subdivisions often match authority records themselves. |
| 21:15 | kados | thd: would you enjoy writing the script that did that matching? |
| 21:16 | thd: as a secret agent of LibLime? :-) | |
| 21:16 | thd | subdivisions are authorised but the combined permutation of subdivisions do not match a subdivided authority record. |
| 21:17 | kados: Do I not get credit if the script works? | |
| 21:17 | kados | of course |
| 21:17 | you retain all copyrights on it | |
| 21:17 | thd | kados: How secret do I have to be :) |
| 21:17 | kados | not secret at all actually |
| 21:17 | I just thought it sounded better :-) | |
| 21:18 | thd | kados: I do like being anonymous. |
| 21:18 | kados: I tried to be secret with Follett and they disapproved. | |
| 21:19 | kados | heh |
| 21:20 | thd | kados: They insist on direct relationships with the end user library but were happy to answer my question anyway except that everyone had left for the day. |
| 21:21 | kados: I wish to be unanonymous as soon as Koha supports standards close enough to my satisfaction. | |
| 21:22 | kados: Till then I can have a lot of fun as a secret agent. | |
| 21:23 | kados: Afterwords I can still creep into the shadows. | |
| 21:26 | kados: That scri[pt would be fun to write. I have had a design in mind for how bulkauthimport.pl would work if it worked. | |
| 21:26 | kados | sweet |
| 21:27 | thd | kados: Do you have a library that has all the LC authority records or even all the authorities for the ones they use? |
| 21:30 | kados: have you committed your debugged MARC editor code to the authority record editor? | |
| 21:31 | kados | no |
| 21:32 | I have a library that has authority records for subject and author, though I have no idea if it's LC or not | |
| 21:32 | thd: you said you had got authorities working in Koha before, could you help me to get them going on koha.liblime.com? | |
| 21:34 | thd | kados: I used the authorities record editor to manually create some authorities and linked them to the bibliographic editor. |
| 21:35 | kados: authorities require their own frameworks for different types of authorities. | |
| 21:37 | kados | thd: by authorities record editor do you mean this: |
| 21:37 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]horised_values.pl | |
| 21:39 | thd | kados: each authority is then linked from the bibliographic record using $9 in the authority controlled field. |
| 21:39 | kados: no I will give you the link | |
| 21:41 | kados: I have to change templates. The current NPL template should have them for 2.2.5, although, it had not included authorities previously. | |
| 21:44 | kados: http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]es/authorities.pl | |
| 21:45 | kados: your npl template is the LibLime custom version and does not have the right links as far as I could see. | |
| 21:46 | kados | wow, I've never seen this page |
| 21:46 | I'm going to see if we even have a npl template for it | |
| 21:46 | thd | kados: separate frameworks are needed for each authority type as I stated. |
| 21:48 | kados: It is now accessible in the standard colourless npl intranet templates from 2.2.5. | |
| 21:48 | kados | right |
| 21:48 | looks like this could use some work | |
| 21:48 | as well as a link to it from somewhere | |
| 21:49 | thd | kados: presumably this has all the deficiencies that you have recently corrected in the MARC bibliographic editor. |
| 21:49 | kados | what am I missing in the drop-down boxes in the upper-left of the screen |
| 21:49 | thd: I'll check the code | |
| 21:49 | thd: it doesnt' use MARChtml2marc | |
| 21:50 | thd: ahh ... but it _does_ have an AUTHhtml2marc | |
| 21:50 | thd | kados: it must be a copy of some version of that with some authority modification. |
| 21:50 | kados | I'll check that out |
| 21:51 | yea, it's the same routine I think | |
| 21:51 | I'm assuming that there are some differences in the logic | |
| 21:52 | if MARC authorities have different rules | |
| 21:52 | thd | kados: careful not to wipe out the special authority magic section |
| 21:52 | kados | which section is that? |
| 21:53 | thd | kados: I have not looked at the code. The authority magic could all be external. |
| 21:54 | kados | yea, I've checked it with diff |
| 21:54 | thd | s/external/external to anything that the record editor needs to do/ |
| 21:54 | kados | it's identical except that MARChtml2marc handles a leader |
| 21:55 | do MARC authorities have leaders? | |
| 21:55 | thd | kados: all MARC records have leaders if they are MARC records :) |
| 21:55 | kados | heh ... ok so looks like we're going to need to create some AUTH frameworks too |
| 21:56 | with plugins, etc. | |
| 21:56 | thd | kados: yes it should draw frameworks from a separate place form the bibliographic frameworks. |
| 21:56 | kados | it doesn't currently? |
| 21:57 | or are there currently no frameworks for authorities | |
| 21:57 | thd | kados: It does currently |
| 21:58 | kados: Even you custom LibLime templates provide access to the thesaurus editor for editing bibliographic frameworks. | |
| 21:58 | kados | how do you create authority types? |
| 21:58 | thd | s/bibliographic/authority/ |
| 21:58 | kados | ahh ... I see them now |
| 21:59 | wow ... so as soon as you're done with the default MARC framework | |
| 21:59 | we need to get to work on the AUTH framework | |
| 21:59 | thd: are there any limitations on whether Koha could support full MARC Authorities given the proper framework? | |
| 21:59 | thd | kados: different authority types are specified with the correct authority framework and use different fields for main entry in their authority files. |
| 22:01 | kados: The only problem with paul's otherwise excellent design is that they only work for $a of the authorised heading. | |
| 22:02 | kados: So that is a problem for example with authors where other subfields containing birth and death dates, titles, etc. are needed to distinguish one author from another. | |
| 22:03 | kados: Actually, in UNIMARC it should be a worse problem because first name and last name belong in separate subfields for UNIMARC. | |
| 22:04 | kados: paul cheats and omits the other subfields from his UNIMARC bibliographic frameworks and his libraries do not mind. | |
| 22:07 | kados: Of course those UNIMARC records with everything in $a could easily be fixed with a script if the authorises system in Koha could manage more than $a. | |
| 22:07 | kados | interesting ... |
| 22:08 | so what are the authorities actually used for? | |
| 22:08 | ie, can they be used to improve searches? | |
| 22:08 | we really need to get a few examples going so I can understand how it's supposed to work | |
| 22:09 | thd | kados: You can create some authority records and see how magnificent it is. |
| 22:10 | kados: so you have the authorised form of the authority in one field of the authority record. | |
| 22:10 | kados: other fields contain references and tracings to other fields. | |
| 22:11 | kados: The current Koha system does not allow transversing from one authority record to another related one but that could always be added. | |
| 22:12 | kados: other fields contain references and tracings in other fields. | |
| 22:13 | kados: the references and tracings may be other forms of the authority or other names by which the authority is sometimes known | |
| 22:14 | kados: you can search authorities using the term that comes to mind | |
| 22:15 | kados | hang on ... phone |
| 22:15 | thd | kados: the search returns a list of matching authority records that includes reference and tracing matches |
| 22:38 | kados: let me know when you are back | |
| 22:48 | kados | thd: I'm back |
| 22:49 | thd: so I'm gonna pull up some auth records from the file my client sent me | |
| 22:50 | NUMBER 1 => | |
| 22:50 | LDR 00066nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 22:50 | 100 10 _aCarmichael, Ian, | |
| 22:50 | _d1920- | |
| 22:50 | NUMBER 2 => | |
| 22:50 | LDR 00053nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 22:50 | 100 10 _aHale, Gena | |
| 22:50 | NUMBER 3 => | |
| 22:50 | LDR 00062nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 22:50 | 100 10 _aGold, Alison Leslie | |
| 22:50 | NUMBER 4 => | |
| 22:50 | LDR 00058nz 2200037o 4500 | |
| 22:50 | 100 10 _aValeska, Shonna | |
| 22:50 | so first I assume I've got to add an authority type for authors | |
| 22:50 | thd | kados: are those the whole records? |
| 22:50 | kados | yep |
| 22:51 | thd | kados: I guess only the very famous would have long standard records |
| 22:51 | kados | thd: Report tag |
| 22:52 | thd: is this 100a? | |
| 22:52 | thd | kados: yes |
| 22:52 | kados: well where are you where you see that? | |
| 22:52 | kados | huh ... doesn't look like the type I created was saved |
| 22:52 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]dmin/authtypes.pl | |
| 22:53 | click on 'Add Authority Type' | |
| 22:53 | yea, I can't get it to create a new authority type | |
| 22:53 | wonder why | |
| 22:54 | don't see any | |
| 22:54 | weird | |
| 22:56 | thd: have you had success in adding authority types in the past? | |
| 22:57 | thd | kados: yes it works fine but you should leave out the a just use 100 |
| 22:58 | kados | I tried that |
| 22:58 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]dmin/authtypes.pl | |
| 22:58 | it does not show up | |
| 22:58 | thd: can you create a new one on koha.liblime.com? | |
| 22:59 | thd | kados: I think the problem is a template issue. |
| 22:59 | kados | I'll try to track it down |
| 23:03 | thd | kados: It works fine in the default template |
| 23:07 | kados | thd: why would report tag be 150 for subject? |
| 23:07 | shouldn't it be 650? | |
| 23:08 | thd | kados: use the field form the authority record standard |
| 23:09 | kados | I see some 150s, some 130s and some 151s |
| 23:09 | in the data I have for subjects | |
| 23:09 | ok, what's the next step? | |
| 23:09 | do we need to edit the framework? | |
| 23:10 | thd | kados: In the case of personal authors they happen to be the same field number as main entry personal author in the bibliographic format |
| 23:10 | kados | (I also see some authors in the subject authorities file) |
| 23:11 | thd: do we need to edit the frameworks to continue? | |
| 23:13 | thd | kados: there are titles in author names authorities but I do not know why authors would appear in subject authorities |
| 23:14 | kados: I think you may only need a link in the authorities framework if building authorities from the existing set of bibliographic data. | |
| 23:15 | kados: I did not try that because building scripts only exist for UNIMARC. | |
| 23:17 | kados: The correct method of authority control checks national/international standard authority records which can be stored on the local system and updated periodically | |
| 23:18 | kados | ok ... |
| 23:18 | I still don't understand what the next step is | |
| 23:18 | thd | kados: Locally created authority files can supplement the standard set of authorities. |
| 23:19 | kados: I think the next step is to create an authority record in the authority record editor | |
| 23:20 | kados: It should be to import the authority records but bulkauthimport.pl does nothing useful | |
| 23:20 | kados | ok, I'll create a few here |
| 23:22 | thd | kados: by the way I am seeing something that is suggesting that $9 may not work properly for MARC 21 subject subdivisions. |
| 23:22 | kados | this form is HUGE |
| 23:22 | thd | kados: really, and I did not even set it up. |
| 23:22 | kados | I suspect the NPL templates are quite buggy for authorities |
| 23:22 | thd | :) |
| 23:24 | kados | the javascript on the page takes so long that firefox complains :-) |
| 23:25 | ok, one created: | |
| 23:25 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?authid=1 | |
| 23:25 | now how do I link it to an actual item? | |
| 23:26 | i suspect I need to set up authorities in my MARC Bibliographic framework, right? | |
| 23:26 | thd: do you know how to do this? | |
| 23:27 | thd | kados go to the authorities record editor |
| 23:27 | kados: choose a framework | |
| 23:27 | kados | I'm gonna delete a bunch of the frameworks fields for Author |
| 23:28 | thd | kados: then create an authority record |
| 23:28 | kados | I think all I need is 100 and 110 |
| 23:28 | for Author | |
| 23:28 | thd | kados: nooooo |
| 23:28 | kados: the 4XX 5XX | |
| 23:28 | fileds are what give authorities their real value | |
| 23:29 | kados | hehe |
| 23:29 | ok ... I just deleted a few of them :-) | |
| 23:29 | for author | |
| 23:29 | thd | kados: ordinarily you never have to create your own authority records so it is not much of an issue |
| 23:29 | kados | right |
| 23:30 | thd: so I have created an authority record | |
| 23:30 | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?authid=1 | |
| 23:30 | thd | kados: without 4XX 5XX you cannot see really what authorities do for you |
| 23:30 | kados | now what do I do ? |
| 23:31 | thd | kados: look up an authority record here to see what they look like when you have a well known author or common subject |
| 23:32 | kados: http://authorities.loc.gov/ | |
| 23:35 | kados: maybe this does not work because I cannot share my session ID but look at http://authorities.loc.gov/cgi[…]1213312&PID=12371 | |
| 23:35 | if you can | |
| 23:36 | maybe remove the last couple of parameter strings | |
| 23:37 | kados: that is meant to be a link to the subject authority for United States | |
| 23:38 | kados | wow, quite complete |
| 23:38 | so what's the next step for our example on koha.liblime.com? | |
| 23:38 | thd | which is 151? |
| 23:39 | kados: you should just put some alternate names like US and USA for United States into 4XX fields | |
| 23:40 | kados: That allows you to see searching for USA allows you to find United States | |
| 23:41 | kados: If you have deleted all the 4XX 5XX etc. fields from your framework that would not work :) | |
| 23:42 | kados: Oh yes, 151 is a geographical name | |
| 23:45 | kados | thd: understand that all i have in my records right now is 100 and 010 |
| 23:45 | thd: and I would like to get a demo going tonight for just those :-) | |
| 23:46 | thd: so I can go back to a client and say "here's how this works ..." | |
| 23:46 | thd: because right now I can't figure out how to use authorities in Koha | |
| 23:46 | thd | kados: ok but those are not nearly as much fun :) |
| 23:46 | kados | thd: does that make sense? |
| 23:46 | thd | kados: yes |
| 23:46 | kados | http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bi[…]etail.pl?authid=1 |
| 23:46 | so, given that authority record, how can I use it in Koha? | |
| 23:47 | do I need to modify my MARC Bibliographic Framework? | |
| 23:48 | thd | kados: let us add something small to the authority record |
| 23:48 | kados | what's that? |
| 23:50 | thd: ? | |
| 23:51 | thd | kados: I added Kerr, Kathy in a 4XX just for fun |
| 23:52 | kados | k |
| 23:52 | now what? | |
| 23:52 | thd | kados now we edit the bibliographic framework to use the authority |
| 23:53 | kados | ok, I'm in subfields for 100a now |
| 23:53 | thesaurus AUTHOR ... is it that simple? | |
| 23:54 | ok, I added that | |
| 23:54 | now what? | |
| 23:55 | thd | we both added it |
| 23:55 | kados | that should be ok |
| 23:56 | what's the next step? | |
| 23:56 | thd | kados: now create a new bibliographic record or edit an existing one |
| 23:57 | when you come to 100 $a you can fill it from the authority record | |
| 23:57 | kados: you can even search for Kathy Kerr and find the correct authorised value | |
| 23:58 | kados | I can't seem to find Kathy Kerr on the authorities search |
| 23:59 | thd | kados: use the values or '...' at 100 |
| 00:00 | kados | yea, i am |
| 00:00 | I can't find Kerr | |
| 00:01 | thd | kaos: yes I cannot find the main name even searching the main authorities search |
| 00:02 | kados | I suspect this search suffers from the same problems as the search of the repository |
| 00:02 | thd | kados: what is wrong with repository searches |
| 00:02 | kados | here's the mysql: |
| 00:02 | thd | ? |
| 00:02 | kados | select distinct m1.authid from auth_header,auth_subfield_table as m1 where m1.authid=auth_header.authid and auth_header.authtypecode=? and (m1.subfieldvalue like 'Kerr, Kathleen%' and m1.tag+m1.subfieldcode in ('100a')) |
| 00:02 | thd: they often cannot find things in the repositry :-) | |
| 00:03 | thd | kados: this worked perfectly when i tried it under 2.2.4 |
| 00:04 | kados: and it had made me very happy with only a little frown when I found that it was restricted to $a | |
| 00:06 | kados | mysql> select * from auth_header; +--------+--------------+-------------+--------------+------------+| authid | authtypecode | datecreated | datemodified | origincode |+--------+--------------+-------------+--------------+------------+| 1 | | 2006-03-01 | NULL | NULL | |
| 00:06 | mysql> select * from auth_subfield_table; | |
| 00:06 | +------------+--------+-----+----------+---------------+--------------+---------------+----------------+ | |
| 00:07 | | subfieldid | authid | tag | tagorder | tag_indicator | subfieldcode | subfieldorder | subfieldvalue | | |
| 00:07 | | 2 | 1 | 100 | 25 | 10 | a | 1 | Kerr, Kathleen | | |
| 00:07 | | 3 | 1 | 400 | 43 | | a | 1 | Kerr, Kathy | | |
| 00:07 | looks like it's missing authtypecode in auth_header | |
| 00:07 | that could be the problem | |
| 00:09 | thd | kados: did you create that without selecting the author framework? |
| 00:20 | kados: I think something went worng when you created that authority record. | |
| 00:21 | kados: I created a record for Joshua M. Ferraro | |
| 00:21 | kados: I can find that record by searching on kados | |
| 00:23 | kados | hehe |
| 00:23 | I may has set it up wrong | |
| 00:23 | let me see if I can fix it | |
| 00:25 | thd | kados; I think you need the default template for it to work well though |
| 00:27 | kados | yep |
| 00:27 | switching back :/ | |
| 00:27 | I'll bug owen tomorrow to fix it | |
| 00:31 | thd | kados: did you turn MARC off? |
| 00:31 | The MARC editor is gone | |
| 00:34 | kados | I didn't |
| 00:34 | but someone may have | |
| 00:36 | ok, I'm going to see if I can get owen to take a stab at fixing npl templates | |
| 00:36 | to work with authorities | |
| 00:36 | thanks for walking through it with me thd | |
| 00:36 | i think I get the basic idea | |
| 00:37 | even if I can't get it to actually work :-) | |
| 00:37 | thd | kados: It is a fantastic feature |
| 00:38 | paul did a very good job with the minor qualification of the $a limitation | |
| 00:39 | kados: Currently, there is no support for tracings and references searches in the OPAC so that searches for kados can find Joshua | |
| 00:41 | kados: paul had suggested that he would add it to the OPAC for 3.0 | |
| 00:48 | kados | cool |
| 00:49 | so what's the point of having so many fields in an authority record if we can only use $a? | |
| 00:50 | thd | kados: $a is a subfield. You can use subfield $a in many fields |
| 00:51 | kados | right, but in the framework I see lots of other subfields |
| 00:51 | thd | kados: Of course the $a restriction should be corrected. That is a bug/design error. |
| 00:51 | kados | I guess my question is |
| 00:51 | I understand that I can create a authority record for 'Joshua Ferraro' | |
| 00:52 | and then, in the OPAC I should be able to search for the authority record, then pull up all the records that are linked to that authority | |
| 00:52 | but what else can authorities be used for? | |
| 00:53 | thd | filling the authorised value when creating records |
| 00:53 | kados | right |
| 00:53 | but what did you do where you could search for 'kados' | |
| 00:54 | thd | kados: changing all the authorities at once when you acquire some distinguished title like King Joshua |
| 00:55 | kados: All the bibliographic records should then change to match the authority | |
| 00:55 | kados | ooh ... I like that feature :-) |
| 00:55 | thd | kados: Of course titles go in a different subfield from $a |
| 00:55 | kados | so what is the $a restriction? |
| 00:56 | thd | kados: as do dates to distinguish you from all the other Joshua M. Ferraros in the world. |
| 00:58 | kados: single subfield restrictions are an artifact of separating everything in a record into separate SQL rows by subfield | |
| 00:58 | kados: There is no reason that could not be fixed even with records in SQL | |
| 01:00 | kados | why wasn't the AUTH framework identical to the MARC BIB framework so it wouldn't have this limitation> |
| 01:00 | thd | kados: the returned result just needs to be a composite of all subfields needed from the required field just as it is now in the subject searching for subdivided subjects |
| 01:01 | kados: the same limitation is really present in the bibliographic frameworks | |
| 01:01 | kados | I don't understand the limitation |
| 01:01 | could you explain it in simple language :-) | |
| 01:01 | thd | kados: the starting point and filling point is based around individual subfields rather than fields as a whole |
| 01:02 | kados | what are the starting point and filling point? |
| 01:03 | thd | kados: starting point is where Koha tables links to a single MARC field/subfield pair. |
| 01:04 | kados: So biblio.author is linked to 100a | |
| 01:04 | kados: when really it should be linked to 100 as a whole in the bibliographic record. | |
| 01:05 | kados: yet as paul implemented MARC in SQL the anchor or starting point is 100a not 100 | |
| 01:07 | kados: Then you add see also references, plugins etc. to 100a not to 100 as a whole or to the groups of relevant subfields. | |
| 01:08 | kados | I see |
| 01:08 | thd | kados: Therefore when filling 100a from a plugin only 100a is filled not all applicable subfields in 100 |
| 01:09 | kados | so you end up needint more than one plugin and you must repeat the authorities search to fill the other values, eh? |
| 01:09 | it seems like you should be able to fill the other values based soley on the id of the authority | |
| 01:09 | using the technique paul told me about to fill other subfields with a single plugin | |
| 01:09 | thd | kados: authorities only work on $a. More than one plugin is not the solution. |
| 01:09 | kados | would that fix the problem as you see it? |
| 01:10 | what if the $a plugin was able to pull out values for all the subfields and populate them | |
| 01:10 | thd | kados: yes fill multiple subfields with one plugin |
| 01:10 | kados | ok ... once I get owen to fix the authorities support in the npl template I'll work on a few authorities plugins |
| 01:11 | in the meantime, I've got a couple of scripts from hdl | |
| 01:11 | thd | kados: and search multiple subfields with one plugin |
| 01:11 | kados | one called buildEditors.pl |
| 01:11 | and one called build_authorities.pl | |
| 01:11 | looks like they are used to build authorities lists from existing data | |
| 01:11 | I'm wondering if it is possible to build such authorities | |
| 01:12 | thd | kados: I presume those are UNIMARC only so you would need to modify them for MARC 21. |
| 01:12 | kados | and then append a new list as you recieve new authorities from your cataloging source |
| 01:12 | yes I will need to modify them | |
| 01:12 | perhaps you can help me | |
| 01:12 | want me to mail them to you? | |
| 01:13 | mail sent | |
| 01:13 | liblime at agogme.com :-) | |
| 01:13 | thd | kados: hdl sent them to me too when I asked. They are just updated versions of what has already been there I presume. |
| 01:13 | kados | ahh |
| 01:13 | sorry to fill up your inbox then :-) | |
| 01:14 | thd | kados: There are others and a script to manage it all documented in something paul wrote that appears on kohadocs.org |
| 01:15 | kados: I have plenty of space in that box. | |
| 01:15 | kados: As long as you do not send a 20MB attachment. | |
| 01:16 | kados: authorities built from the bibliographic record are the poor man's weak authorities. | |
| 01:17 | kados: They necessarily contain no tracings and references. They have only the authorised form. | |
| 01:17 | kados: Therefore, you cannot find United States by searching for USA | |
| 01:19 | kados; The right thing to do is create a working bulkauthimport.pl and acquire a complete set of authorities from LC. | |
| 01:19 | kados: you can then give away authority records to all your customers. | |
| 01:21 | kados: You could even charge a fee for the authority records. | |
| 01:22 | kados | how can I obtain a set of authorities from LC? |
| 01:22 | can I simply use my current customer's authority records? | |
| 01:23 | thd | kados: You could possibly make an arrangement with a MARC records reseller for LC authority records that may be limited to redistribution to your customers. That should lower the cost significantly. |
| 01:24 | kados: They are free to copy if you can find them anywhere. | |
| 01:26 | kados: the average patron or even the average librarian cannot be expected to know the required authorised heading for a successful search much of the time. | |
| 01:26 | kados: good authority records in a system able to use them can correct that. | |
| 01:27 | kados: Sirsi Unicorn had been about the only ILS that uses authority searching in the OPAC. | |
| 01:28 | maybe the only one absolutely | |
| 01:29 | kados: Koha should be even better than Sirsi Unicorn | |
| 01:30 | kados | I'm sure it will be once we get a decent authorities file in there |
| 01:31 | thd: we've made good progress over the past few weeks | |
| 01:31 | thd | kados: fantastic progress |
| 01:32 | kados | thd: should we work on a bulkauthimport.pl next? |
| 01:34 | thd | kados: In terms of priorities I would think that fixing MARC-8 and ISO 5426 at least for UNIMARC in rel_2_2 is more important to correct the obvious bug. |
| 01:34 | kados | thd: didn't you hear? |
| 01:34 | thd | kados: I know MARC-8 is fixed for XML |
| 01:34 | kados | thd: the new version of MARC::File::XML automatically converts MARC-8 to UTF-8 |
| 01:35 | and since we run all edited records through MARC::File::XML, that problem is solved | |
| 01:35 | thd | kados: That does not help rel_2_2 or UNIMARC even in 3.0 |
| 01:35 | kados | ? |
| 01:35 | why not? | |
| 01:36 | maybe I don't understand the problem | |
| 01:36 | thd | kados: are you running all edited records through XML in rel_2_2? |
| 01:36 | kados | yep |
| 01:36 | thd | kados: Ok but UNIMARC never uses MARC-8. |
| 01:37 | kados | if position 9 in the leader says it's MARC-8, MARC::XML::File changes it to utf-8 |
| 01:37 | otherwise it leaves it alone | |
| 01:37 | so what's the problem? | |
| 01:37 | thd | kados: UNIMARC has several possible encodings rather than one comprehensive one. |
| 01:38 | kados: ISO-5426 is the encoding usually used for European languages in UNIMARC. | |
| 01:40 | kados: It has been possible to obtain records from BNF in ISO-8859-1, which is not a standard UNIMARC encoding so the problem has been partially mitigated. | |
| 01:41 | kados | thd: I don't have any UNIMARC clients and I don't expect I ever will :-) |
| 01:41 | thd: so that's a problem for paul to address :-) | |
| 01:42 | thd | kados: OK, I want my multi-MARC library system that can freely translate between one MARC and another so I can obtain record from anywhere. |
| 01:43 | kados: There is a Perl module for translating ISO-5426. | |
| 01:44 | kados: It was originally written for German MAB records. | |
| 01:45 | kados: So bulkauthimport.pl is next along with more and better plugin support in the record editor and improving the framework. | |
| 01:45 | kados | thd: cool, so we can just pre-process UNIMARC records with that perl module |
| 01:45 | ok ... | |
| 01:46 | so you're almost done with the framework right? | |
| 01:46 | thd | kados: yes it works just like the similar MARC-8 module from Ed Summers. |
| 01:47 | kados: Although it only covers European characters with diacritical marks. | |
| 01:47 | kados: yes, almost done with the framework | |
| 01:49 | kados: Also a better Z39.50 module is needed. I had been working on that until I started working on the framework. | |
| 01:51 | kados: Your most likely customers would probably have more appreciation of a better record editor and a better Z39.50 client than authority support. | |
| 01:52 | kados: Also, good authority support is likely to mean investing money in a subscription to authority records to realise the advantage for your customers. | |
| 01:55 | kados: Software that present Koha customers look at has no authority support but definitely have better Z39.50 clients. | |
| 01:56 | kados | yep |
| 01:56 | our z-client is pretty bad | |
| 01:57 | thd | kados: It should be easy to surpass the Z39.50 clients in competing software but you would need the right documentation from Mike Taylor to make that work in Perl::Zoom. |
| 01:58 | kados: I have a good amount of understanding invested in PHP/Yaz | |
| 01:59 | kados: Perl::Zoom is the way to go if you can get Mike to document non-blocking queries of multiple targets. | |
| 02:00 | kados: I have been experimenting with Z39.50 clients since BookWhere was born. | |
| 02:02 | kados: BookWhere which was based on the free software CanSearch uses Z39.50 explain to find what syntax the targets support and reduce errors from using the wrong syntax on a client that does not support it. | |
| 02:03 | kados: Of curse that is advanced, functionality. | |
| 02:06 | kados: My user interface has not been rewritten for drop down fielded forms and I am downloading all records instead of choosing one so far. | |
| 05:37 | osmoze | hello |
| 06:09 | |hdl| | hello osmoze |
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