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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:23 | osmoze | bye |
| 17:02 | kados | chris: any thoughts on Paul's koha-devel email? |
| 17:02 | rach, russ ? | |
| 17:02 | russ | hi kados |
| 17:03 | kados | mornin ;-) |
| 17:03 | russ | can someone forward that to me again please? |
| 17:03 | what is it evening for you? | |
| 17:03 | chris | thats the template email kados? |
| 17:04 | paul | I can stay for a few minuts before going to bed if you want to speak of it kados. |
| 17:04 | chris | forwarded it russ |
| 17:04 | russ | cheers chris |
| 17:04 | paul | hello chris & russ & kados |
| 17:04 | kados | hehe |
| 17:05 | evening paul | |
| 17:05 | I see you perked right up ;-) | |
| 17:05 | paul | perked ? |
| 17:05 | rach | help |
| 17:05 | erg | |
| 17:05 | kados | perked = became alert ;-) |
| 17:05 | rach | hello :-) |
| 17:05 | freudian slip there :-) | |
| 17:06 | kados | hehe |
| 17:06 | russ | does someone have koha up and going with owen's templates somewhere? |
| 17:06 | kados | owen: still around? |
| 17:06 | russ | i havent seen them |
| 17:06 | kados | I don't ... |
| 17:06 | sorry | |
| 17:06 | I think paul's problem is that they are not user friendly enough for a programmer right paul? | |
| 17:06 | paul | i was just wandering near my computer when I heard the irc noise that occurs when someone type my name ! |
| 17:06 | kados | for testing and such? |
| 17:07 | hehe | |
| 17:07 | paul | right. |
| 17:07 | most pages are dead end. | |
| 17:07 | quite unusable. | |
| 17:07 | kados | owen's contention (and mine since I'm dealing with more than just NPL now) is that it's too hard to maintain a template with more complex templates |
| 17:08 | now katipo just designed a whole new set of templates for rangitiki right chris? | |
| 17:08 | chris | would it be more easy if we used includes more? |
| 17:08 | designed is a bit strong | |
| 17:08 | rach | yes we did new templates, we did plain ones, |
| 17:08 | kados | plain? |
| 17:08 | chris | we took npl templates, ripped all the colours out |
| 17:08 | rach | but probably not as plain as I think Owen was doing - so they still had some menues |
| 17:08 | kados | right |
| 17:08 | owen | And lots of visual formatting (tables, etc) |
| 17:08 | chris | yes |
| 17:08 | rach | black and white - no colours, other than links, but still with formating |
| 17:09 | chris | and then we coloured them back in |
| 17:09 | rach | but the least formating that we thought we could get away with |
| 17:09 | chris | one for rangitikei |
| 17:09 | kados | I see |
| 17:09 | chris | and one for hlt |
| 17:09 | kados | yea that's basically what LibLime's client tempaltes are like |
| 17:09 | NPL with different colors ;-) | |
| 17:09 | but even still, as new things are developed it's a bear to update the templates | |
| 17:09 | it's almost a full-time job | |
| 17:09 | rach | you saw them I think - basically with no colours, and less menus |
| 17:10 | kados | for each set of templates |
| 17:10 | chris | http://koha.rangitikei.katipo.[…]/koha/mainpage.pl |
| 17:10 | thats it coloured back in | |
| 17:10 | rach | yep we certainly found that |
| 17:10 | russ | i hear that kados - the bulk of our effort for rangitikei and hlt upgrade was updating templates |
| 17:11 | rach | that it's a big job doing the templates, I can tell you it takes about 40hrs I think to update a set of templates each new version of KOha |
| 17:11 | kados | yep ... and it will continue as you maintain it ;-) |
| 17:11 | rach | might actually be more than that it's true |
| 17:11 | russ | rach i think 40hrs is probably ligt |
| 17:11 | kados | rach: that's maybe even a bit of a low estimate ... |
| 17:11 | russ | light |
| 17:11 | paul | rach said something important I think. maintaining intranet template is a BIG work. |
| 17:11 | kados | agreed |
| 17:11 | paul | and I don't see how it can not be. |
| 17:12 | chris | yes its just like redesigning a medium sized website |
| 17:12 | kados | yep |
| 17:12 | rach | yep |
| 17:12 | paul | (for OPAC it's different as there is less than 20 templates) |
| 17:12 | chris | yes |
| 17:12 | kados | cool ... so we all agree mostly about at least the Intranet template |
| 17:12 | rach | that it's a lot of work :-) |
| 17:12 | paul | So I think we should clearly define what we need in intranet template. |
| 17:12 | kados | now the PROG templates were supposed to alleviate the processes of weeding through _changes_ |
| 17:12 | paul | and define what kind of CSS styles we need. |
| 17:13 | then, everybody can have it's own css | |
| 17:13 | and be happy ;-) | |
| 17:13 | rach | yep the idea of programmer templates, was one set that the programmers could make functionality changes too |
| 17:13 | kados | because IMO we won't really ever agree on what our clients' want in their tempaltes |
| 17:13 | rach | that were useful enough to test agains |
| 17:13 | against | |
| 17:13 | kados | for instance, rangitiki doesn't have the left-hand navbar |
| 17:13 | russ | kados: and nor would we want to, i see it as a feature of koha |
| 17:13 | kados | wheras NPL and LibLIme's clients depend on that |
| 17:14 | rach | it doesn't have your left hand sidebar :-) we tend to favour 2 bars |
| 17:14 | kados | russ: agreed |
| 17:14 | paul | I have a solution for such problems with my customers : I explain how much work is needed when a new release is released, and that they would have to pay ! |
| 17:14 | thus, every body in France has default templates for librarian interface ;-) | |
| 17:15 | kados | rach: well ... more than that even ... ranji doesn't have any 'shortcut' keys or quickscan options in their nav bar |
| 17:15 | paul: makes sense for a small community I think | |
| 17:15 | rach | yep we could easily put those back in |
| 17:16 | chris | we probably will for hlt |
| 17:16 | they were quite taken by the idea of quick keys | |
| 17:16 | rach | yep - rangitikei are quite "low tech" |
| 17:16 | kados | paul: but eventually it might be more expensive for multiple clients to have to have their templates updated than it would be to go with a proprietary system |
| 17:17 | paul: IMO we need to take advantage of code reuse more in the templates | |
| 17:17 | but I must admin | |
| 17:17 | admit even | |
| 17:17 | rach | yes - so I guess the question is, is there enough in common between the templates that we could actually "agree" on a default set? |
| 17:17 | kados | I'm not sure what the best way to approach code reuse is |
| 17:17 | or even, is our whole approach to templates thusfar deficient in some way | |
| 17:18 | for instance, | |
| 17:18 | how do other projects handle multiple templates | |
| 17:18 | mambo for instance, or gallery, or ... | |
| 17:18 | etc. | |
| 17:18 | owen | I think to a certain extent they treat alternate templates as solely the responsibility of the author |
| 17:19 | kados | one question that I've been interested in is whether we could accomplish all our different designs in CSS only |
| 17:19 | owen | I think there's only so much you can do with CSS |
| 17:19 | You reach a point where you really do have to move stuff around on the page. | |
| 17:19 | rach | I think that we have a somewhat different issue - I think that we are adding features (and major ones) at a fearsome rate |
| 17:19 | compared to other systems | |
| 17:20 | kados | yep |
| 17:20 | rach | so that while that still continues, we're going to have a problem |
| 17:20 | kados | makes sense |
| 17:20 | rach | I would think (although maybe we will continue which would be cool :-) that after the next release we might get a bit more of a hiatus |
| 17:20 | kados | I think that's where the PROG template idea emerged |
| 17:21 | rach | on the feature front - or at least less major features being added |
| 17:21 | kados | PROG might alleviate the process of updating all the templates if it's used |
| 17:22 | owen | The idea with the prog templates being, a DIFF will more easily show what has been changed if you don't have to sift out the presentational aspects |
| 17:23 | rach | yep that was the idea |
| 17:23 | kados | so would it make sense to say that we each will develop new functionality using our own templates |
| 17:23 | but when we commit code we agree to commit to the PROG templates as well as our templates? | |
| 17:23 | paul | mmm... sounds quite ambitious to me... |
| 17:23 | rach | and (for me anyway) I wanted something that might be easier to test with |
| 17:24 | kados | paul: yes it's problematic because it requires coders to commit twice :-/ |
| 17:24 | paul | i'm not sure we would have enough ressources to test enough each release with each set of templates |
| 17:24 | rach | yep |
| 17:25 | kados | ok ... so ... other suggestions? |
| 17:25 | paul | and that would be quite hard to say : if you want featureX you need template katipo, while featureY is with template liblime. |
| 17:25 | kados | can we modify the role of PROG templates? |
| 17:25 | rach | well that's pretty much what we do now |
| 17:25 | kados | exactly |
| 17:25 | rach | if you want non marc with normal acquisitions, then you go for hte katipo templates |
| 17:26 | at the moment, it's kinda ok for "us" ie paul/joshua/katipo, because we all have templates we're familiar with | |
| 17:26 | paul | and my problem is that i'm not sure that marc=off and acqui=normal works fine with default templates. |
| 17:26 | so I don't suggest it to my libraries... | |
| 17:26 | rach | yep - it doesn't :-) |
| 17:27 | russ | it certainly doesnt :-) |
| 17:28 | kados | we need a $100,000 USD grant to hire some QA folks ;-) |
| 17:28 | rach | and none of us are very confident that anything works in windows :-) |
| 17:28 | kados | ha! |
| 17:28 | one problem that I can forsee with LibLime | |
| 17:29 | is that the ammount of customization that each library requires | |
| 17:29 | makes Koha not much cheaper than some of the smaller proprietary solutions | |
| 17:29 | (in fact, it's more expensive than the really small ones) | |
| 17:29 | I'm not sure whether that's just the nature of the beast | |
| 17:29 | chris | yep, but it is that ability to customise that makes koha better |
| 17:29 | rach | yep it pretty much is I think |
| 17:30 | chris | i think competing on price only gets so far |
| 17:30 | kados | chris: in some ways I agree ... but in many cases I think it could work better 'out of the box' |
| 17:30 | not that it's anyone's fault | |
| 17:30 | we're all strapped for time and resources | |
| 17:30 | rach | yep |
| 17:30 | chris | yep, the installer could set up more stuff |
| 17:31 | russ | yeah we were talking about that werent we chris? |
| 17:31 | chris | i think time is the biggest resource we are short of |
| 17:31 | well me anyway :) | |
| 17:32 | kados | hehe |
| 17:32 | you are the biggest resources we are short of chris ;-) | |
| 17:32 | resource even ... | |
| 17:33 | so any more ideas about the PROG templates? | |
| 17:33 | paul can you imagine a way that they could be useful? | |
| 17:34 | paul | could we developp a "template compiler" (a XSL stylesheet ?) that transforms PROG into something else ? |
| 17:34 | chris | that would be cool |
| 17:34 | we could make the PROG template xml | |
| 17:34 | kados | hehe ... |
| 17:34 | paul | yep, i'm afraid ! |
| 17:35 | kados | that may be a Koha 4.0 thing |
| 17:35 | owen | We might as well just chuck the prog templates if the only solution is that complicated (given our lack of time) |
| 17:35 | kados | go 100% XML |
| 17:35 | yep | |
| 17:36 | paul | chuck ? |
| 17:36 | kados | paul: get rid of ;-) |
| 17:36 | russ | chuck = throw |
| 17:36 | owen | (sorry paul) |
| 17:36 | paul | maybe, but the main thing ppl said with koha is : it' not nice/fun/pretty ... |
| 17:37 | so we need to have a 3.0 really nice. | |
| 17:37 | kados | paul: you say in your email: |
| 17:37 | chris | i think our aim for 3.0 |
| 17:37 | paul | and that needs rewritting templates, not making default one evolving. |
| 17:37 | kados | in my idea, the PROG templates should give a framework for template designers |
| 17:37 | russ | man after going to the lianza conference |
| 17:37 | chris | is we should consider pretty templates as important as other features |
| 17:37 | kados | chris: agreed |
| 17:37 | russ | i dont think there are any ils that can say they are nice/fun/pretty |
| 17:37 | chris | ie, we should make sure koha looks nice as well as works before a release |
| 17:38 | kados | <quoting paul>in my idea, the PROG templates should give a framework for template designers</quoting> |
| 17:38 | chris | as russ says |
| 17:38 | kados | do we all agree with this? |
| 17:38 | chris | other library systems are butt ugly, lets not join them :-) |
| 17:38 | kados | is that the purpose of PROG templates? |
| 17:38 | rach | indeed |
| 17:39 | chris | hmm |
| 17:39 | kados | from the point of view of a template maintainer ... is it useful to have such a framework? |
| 17:39 | rach | yes - the ideal would be, IMO of course :-) that with the addition/use/changing of some includes and some css files, people could get functional non hideous templates from the programer templates |
| 17:39 | without having to actually make new .tmpl files | |
| 17:39 | chris | IMHO just one set of templates that are known to work would do |
| 17:40 | it would make making/maintaining other sets easier | |
| 17:40 | kados | owen: your thoughts? |
| 17:40 | chris | if there was one that worked |
| 17:40 | kados | chris: who does the template coding for katipo? |
| 17:40 | chris | not me |
| 17:40 | rach | coding or design? |
| 17:40 | chris | i wave my arms around and say make it pretty |
| 17:40 | kados | coding |
| 17:40 | rach | coding generally is bob |
| 17:40 | chris | and it just happens |
| 17:40 | :) | |
| 17:40 | kados | is he around? |
| 17:41 | owen | I could see modifying the programmer templates so that the addition of one or more include files would round it out to a fully functional template. |
| 17:41 | kados | might be interesting to get his perspective |
| 17:41 | owen | But a lot more subjective decisions would have to be made regarding formatting and navigation |
| 17:41 | rach | he would be, but he's on a tight deadline for another job |
| 17:42 | owen | You can't include from an include file in HTML:Template, can you? |
| 17:42 | russ | nah is not that tight, he has done some sterling work this morning |
| 17:43 | kados | morning bob |
| 17:43 | bob | hi everyone |
| 17:43 | chris | yep owen |
| 17:43 | kados | we're brainstorming for how to streamline the process of maintaing Koha tempaltes |
| 17:44 | and we're hoping you have some ideas ;-) | |
| 17:44 | chris | <!--TMPL_INCLUDE something something |
| 17:45 | you can even write a routine to html::template can use that parse <!--#include virtual .. and converts them to <!--TMPL_INCLUDE | |
| 17:45 | kados | bob: owen has worked up a set of minimal 'programmer' templates .. dunno how up to speed you are on them |
| 17:46 | bob: but the idea was that programmers would commit changes to these minimal templates and it would be easier to update a set of 'real' templates using them as a guide | |
| 17:46 | bob | umm, i don't know if i've seen them yet |
| 17:46 | kados | bob: but there are logistical problems with maintaining two sets of templates ... |
| 17:47 | bob: any thoughts? | |
| 17:47 | bob | it would be helpful to have at least a list of what variable a template could have |
| 17:48 | so not exactly a minimal template - could be a text file | |
| 17:49 | kados | interesting |
| 17:49 | I wonder if there's an automated way of generating that | |
| 17:49 | bob | that way i could know what i could display without altering perl code |
| 17:49 | kados | owen: would that be useful from your perspective too? |
| 17:51 | owen | I experimented with doing that with some of the prog templates |
| 17:51 | moremember.tmpl at least, as I recall | |
| 17:51 | But it wasn't automated at all | |
| 17:56 | russ | would it help if we asked bob to do a bit of a write up to the devel list? |
| 17:56 | paul | yep. |
| 17:56 | it's midnight for me, maybe time to go to bed. and maybe i'll dream the best solution ;-) | |
| 17:56 | russ | cos as kados pointed out, he is a little on the spot |
| 17:57 | chris | sleep well paul |
| 17:57 | owen | Thanks for staying up, Paul |
| 17:57 | rach | nice to see you paul :-) |
| 17:58 | russ | this template thing - is it stopping you from doing stuff paul? |
| 17:58 | paul | a little bit russ. |
| 17:58 | I mean i've some features to add, and i was wondering if it was better to wait a little or to write them on default or on PROG | |
| 17:59 | writing them on prog is probably too hard. | |
| 17:59 | maybe PROG would be useable if we just added a standard menu. | |
| 17:59 | kados | paul: do you plan to maintain your 'default' templates in 3.0? |
| 17:59 | paul | nope. |
| 17:59 | kados | owen: will you have time to add a standard menu? |
| 17:59 | paul: would you? | |
| 17:59 | paul | I plan to use a very nice one that someone else will develop ;-) |
| 18:00 | (I really love katipo "fall" theme) | |
| 18:00 | (& think liblime one is nice too) | |
| 18:01 | kados | owen's gonna jet on us ... he's off as of 1 minute ago |
| 18:01 | paul | that's another interesting question : should we wait until a decision has been taken & made reality, or continue with default for instance & port it after. |
| 18:01 | ? | |
| 18:01 | kados | good question |
| 18:01 | owen | I'm willing to make whatever modifications necessary to make the prog templates workable. But only insofar as they keep their functionality as programmer templates |
| 18:02 | ...And yes, gotta go! I'll catch up on the logs later | |
| 18:02 | paul | I agree owen. With a TMPL_INCLUDE, it could be quite easy to do something simple. |
| 18:03 | kados | lets think it over ... if anyone has any further ideas mail them to koha-devel |
| 18:03 | paul | ok, so I go to bed. Pls kados, as RM, don't forget to take a decision on this topic. |
| 18:03 | because it's slowing me & hdl atm. | |
| 18:03 | kados | I'll make a decision before end of week paul ;-) |
| 18:03 | paul | ok, great. |
| 20:13 | JustJoe | does anyone have experience setting up koha, i seem to be having a problem getting apache to show the website properly |
| 20:14 | when i am on the server, i can hit the website fine in lynx, however when i am connecting to it from another machine in a normal web browser i get apache's placeholder page | |
| 20:15 | it just seems funny that localhost forwards me to one place and being on the network forwards me somewhere else | |
| 20:19 | chris | what url do you hit it on when u check it locally |
| 20:19 | vs over the network | |
| 20:20 | cos if you have <Virtualhost localhost> | |
| 20:20 | ServerName localhost | |
| 20:20 | etc | |
| 20:20 | and then hit it on | |
| 20:21 | 192.172.12.1 (i just made that ip number up) | |
| 20:21 | its not going to match that virtualhost | |
| 20:21 | so you get the placeholder page | |
| 20:22 | what you probably need is | |
| 20:22 | a | |
| 20:22 | ServerAlias whatever.you.access.it.on.the.network | |
| 20:22 | in your apache config | |
| 20:25 | JustJoe | i use localhost when i hit it locally |
| 20:25 | chris | if you look at you koha-httpd.conf file |
| 20:26 | it probably says <Virtualhost localhost> ? | |
| 20:28 | JustJoe | <Virtualhost music-lib-svr:80> |
| 20:29 | chris | and in /etc/hosts |
| 20:29 | JustJoe | 127.0.0.1 localhost.localdomain localhost music-lib-svr |
| 20:30 | chris | there we go |
| 20:30 | and when you access it from the network, what url do you use? | |
| 20:30 | JustJoe | i just hit its network IP address |
| 20:30 | chris | right |
| 20:31 | in theory | |
| 20:31 | if you take music-lib-svr off that line in /etch/hosts | |
| 20:31 | then put one | |
| 20:31 | its.network.address music-lib-svr | |
| 20:31 | and restart apache | |
| 20:32 | then lynx http://music-lib-svr/ should work | |
| 20:32 | and from outside http://networkaddress/ should work | |
| 20:35 | JustJoe | thanks, that worked. Now i just got to figure out the hosts file correctly. This seems to be where the problem is. |
| 20:35 | chris | yep |
| 00:03 | indradg | chris. who uses lynx these days ? ;) |
| 00:03 | chris | not me, i use links :) |
| 00:03 | but its generally on most machines :) | |
| 00:04 | indradg | heh |
| 00:06 | chris, head over to http://foss.in/2005/ when u r free | |
| 00:06 | chris | links is cool because the mouse works in it |
| 00:06 | even over ssh | |
| 00:06 | which is really handy for testing stuff on ppls intranets | |
| 00:06 | indradg | i'll be talk about Koha (mostly) |
| 00:06 | chris, i agree | |
| 00:08 | chris | wow, in good company :) |
| 00:09 | indradg | yup! |
| 00:09 | chris | excellent |
| 00:09 | indradg | http://foss.in/2005/schedules/ |
| 00:10 | some really nice sessions in there | |
| 00:10 | chris | sure are |
| 00:10 | looks like a great conference | |
| 00:12 | indradg | last week at a conference a guy from MSFT Research chatted me up.... we ended up discussing device driver models in FreeBSD vs. Linux... the guy's fav platform is Mac OS X... which he uses at work :) |
| 00:13 | chris | i like OS X a lot |
| 00:13 | its a pity that macs cost so much | |
| 00:13 | i wouldnt mind an ibook laptop | |
| 00:14 | but im pretty fond of debian too :) | |
| 00:14 | indradg | yeah... even 2 years back a 128 MB RAM clip used to cost 16000 rupees (~ 3500 USD).... argh! |
| 00:14 | chris | yikes |
| 00:15 | indradg | sorry that would be 350 USD... extra zero ;) |
| 00:15 | chris | ahh thats better... still expensive though |
| 00:15 | so foss.in is an annual event? | |
| 00:16 | indradg | now things have changed... can get a decent mac laptop with DVD writer and stuff in india for about 1,700 USD in indian currency |
| 00:16 | chris, yes... FOSS.IN is an annual event... till last year it used to be called as Linux Bangalore... changed the name this year for an all india flavour | |
| 00:17 | chris | right |
| 00:17 | and usually in december? | |
| 00:17 | indradg | yes... the best time to visit india :) |
| 00:20 | chris | darn, india will be in south africa in december |
| 00:20 | indradg | lol |
| 00:20 | chris | i was hatching a cunning plan to combine a visit to india with foss.in and a cricket match :-) |
| 00:21 | indradg | :) |
| 03:48 | osmoze | hello |
| 09:28 | Sylvain | hi ! |
| 10:13 | paul ? |
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