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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:02 | thd | paul: At the bottom of Encode::Arabic::Buckwalter POD is a comment "Perl is also designed to make the easy jobs not that easy ;)" |
| 11:29 | kados | hi everyeon |
| 11:29 | everyone even ;-) | |
| 11:29 | paul | hi kados |
| 11:29 | kados | paul: do your libraries have a report to show 'items on hold'? |
| 11:30 | paul: how do they know if a patron makes a reserve? | |
| 11:33 | paul: you around? | |
| 11:36 | paul | kados, was on phone |
| 11:37 | reserves are usually done only on issued items. so when the book is returned, the librarian is warned. | |
| 11:37 | however, I agree we should integrate into Koha a report like the php one you use in NPL | |
| 11:41 | thd | paul: This Arabic question looks very tricky. I see the problem more fully now. The problem as your English examples showed relates to prefix and suffix characters attached to logical words that have a separate meaning as semantic words. Arabic is too inflected to be easily indexed with stop words. |
| 11:42 | paul: The prefix character for 'the' may have other meanings depending upon the base word to which it is attached. | |
| 11:43 | paul: There seems to be no widely accepted word stemming solution for Arabic. | |
| 11:48 | kados | paul: thanks |
| 11:48 | paul: one more small question | |
| 11:48 | paul: :-) | |
| 11:48 | paul | yes ? |
| 11:48 | kados | paul: if you have a moment |
| 11:49 | paul: I have noticed that 'request.pl' does not use permissions correctly | |
| 11:49 | paul: it requires 'paramaters' or 'superlibrarian' privs | |
| 11:49 | paul: but it should work with only 'reserveforothers' | |
| 11:50 | paul | right. |
| 11:50 | kados | paul: is this the problem line: flagsrequired => {parameters => 1}, |
| 11:50 | paul | fixed |
| 11:50 | kados | paul: ahh ... good |
| 11:50 | paul: thanks | |
| 11:50 | paul | yes, just replace by reserveforothers |
| 11:50 | kados | paul: I'll check CVS version then |
| 11:50 | k ... just making sure ;-) | |
| 11:50 | paul | (don't do it immediatly, i'm commiting now ;-) |
| 11:54 | kados | (ok ... I manually change it ;-)) |
| 11:57 | paul: another bug found for permissions you might want to know about | |
| 11:57 | paul: member-flags.pl | |
| 11:59 | paul: flagsrequired => {borrowers => 1}, should be | |
| 11:59 | flagsrequired => {permissions => 1}, | |
| 12:00 | paul: I'm happy to commit the fix unless you already have | |
| 12:00 | paul: (or if you plan to ;-)) | |
| 12:01 | paul | i'll commit on 2.2 |
| 12:02 | thd | paul: Having to determine the meaning of a base word in order to know whether a prefix should be a stop word or not is a significant amount of work for an indexing program. This does seem like a fun problem though now that I understand it. Too bad I do not know any Arabic at all :) |
| 12:02 | kados: are you still there? | |
| 12:02 | kados | thd: yea |
| 12:02 | thd: I've spoken with indexdata about arabic language | |
| 12:03 | thd | kados: yes |
| 12:03 | kados | thd: zebra is capable of doing all the stuff that would need to be done |
| 12:03 | thd: but there would need to be extensive configuration files written | |
| 12:04 | thd | kados: yes, I saw documentation about the configuration files. |
| 12:04 | kados: Do you know any Arabic? | |
| 12:04 | kados | thd: a few greetings ;-) |
| 12:05 | thd: and as a linguist I know a few odd characteristics of the language | |
| 12:05 | thd: but no, i don't _know_ arabic | |
| 12:06 | thd | kados: What about the problem where the 'the' prefix character changes its meaning to another word depending upon the base word to which it is attached |
| 12:06 | ? | |
| 12:06 | kados | yea ... so that's no problem in zebra |
| 12:06 | seb explained it to me | |
| 12:07 | let me see ... | |
| 12:07 | I think what happens is that you can setup envoronments in which a prefix is to be ignored | |
| 12:08 | thd | kados: Does not that require looking up every base word in a dictionary to determine the applicable part of speech or meaning for the prefix context to use the as a stop word? |
| 12:09 | kados | no ... you just specify the exact environments in the config gile |
| 12:09 | file even | |
| 12:10 | thd | kados: So, by your comment, Zebra cannot cope reliably with 'the' in Arabic? |
| 12:13 | kados: I would expect that very little software manages to identify 'the' in Arabic reliably. | |
| 12:13 | paul | kados : about members-flags.pl => i have already permissions=> 1 on my cvs copy |
| 12:14 | thd | kados: Have libraries ever asked you about title sorting without using leading articles? |
| 12:16 | Sylvain | hdl ? Quand on fait la liste des plus gros utilisateurs, pourquoi est-ce qu'on ne prend en compte que les prêts "retournés" ? |
| 12:17 | ou paul peut ête ? | |
| 12:17 | r | |
| 12:17 | paul | non, hdl |
| 12:17 | thd | kados: are you still there? |
| 12:17 | paul | ;-) |
| 12:17 | Sylvain | ok :) |
| 12:17 | paul | (joshua is never away, but often not 100% here ;-) ) |
| 12:18 | hdl | Je ne connais pas assez la pratique des bibliothèques pour savoir ce qui est le plus pertinent. |
| 12:18 | thd | paul: like you as well, when you are not marked paul_away? :) |
| 12:18 | paul | ;-) |
| 12:19 | hdl | Pour moi, je pensais que les prêts en cours n'avaient pas à être dans les stats. |
| 12:19 | Sylvain. | |
| 12:19 | thd | paul: I would settle for 50% of you or kados at times if that were possible :) |
| 12:19 | hdl | Mais ce n'est pas trop difficille de faire le plus. |
| 12:20 | large. | |
| 12:20 | Sylvain | oui pas compliqué hdl :) |
| 12:20 | c'est juste sur le plan fonctionnel ça me paraissait bizarre | |
| 12:21 | et c'est aussi que l'école des mines me demande pourquoi il ne voit pas d'utilisateurs dans cette liste ;) | |
| 12:21 | hdl j'essaierai de leur demander ce qu'ils en pensent et le changerais le cas échéant | |
| 12:22 | de la même manière pour les prêts au niveau des dates, le fait qu'on soit sur date < et non <= pour la date de fin les a troublé | |
| 12:22 | c'est vrai que c'est moins intuitif je pense | |
| 12:24 | hdl | Merci pour ces remarques. J'en tiendrai compte par la suite. |
| 12:25 | Sylvain | je demandé confirmation aux bibliothécaires concernés qu'ils sont bien de cet avis avant de faire la modif. |
| 13:32 | thd | kados: are you there? |
| 14:05 | kados | thd: yea ... what's up? |
| 14:07 | thd | kados: Did you receive the INEO and SAN contributed roadmap 3.0 features in their current English state? Did you have them in French and pass them through the babelfish? :) |
| 14:09 | kados: Or did they add them to the developer's wiki themselves, as they are now? | |
| 14:09 | kados | that's a secret ;-) |
| 14:10 | thd | kados: Why secret :) ? |
| 14:10 | kados | I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you ;-) |
| 14:11 | thd | kados: so tell now, kill very much later :) |
| 14:11 | kados | hehe |
| 14:11 | I added them after very rough translation with babelfish | |
| 14:12 | thd | kados: They have no one who writes English? |
| 14:12 | kados | they could use better translations |
| 14:12 | thd: right | |
| 14:12 | thd: feel free to translate ;-) | |
| 14:13 | thd | kados: To attempt a translation I would need the original text. |
| 14:13 | kados | yea ... and I can't give that to you unfortunately |
| 14:13 | because the anonymous folks who are planning to do that dev work have asked to remain anonymous | |
| 14:13 | thd | kados: Do you no longer have it? |
| 14:13 | kados | until they have committed to doing it for sure |
| 14:14 | and are ready to make an announcement ;-) | |
| 14:15 | thd | kados: Is it wrong for me to send them the message I have almost finished drafting about interpreting these features? |
| 14:15 | kados | please send it to me ... I'll pass it on |
| 14:17 | thd | kados: perhaps you could supply me with the original forms of the features without names attached. I could then ask the interpretation question much better if I still had one. |
| 14:20 | kados: yes, no, or maybe? for my suggestion above | |
| 14:25 | kados | maybe ;-) |
| 15:50 | chris | morning |
| 15:55 | owen | Hey chris, how's it going? |
| 15:55 | chris | doing good owen, busy ... but isnt everyone :) other than that good |
| 15:56 | owen | Yeah, busy here too |
| 15:56 | You hear much in the news over there abotu avian flu? It's a little closer to home there than here | |
| 15:58 | chris | there is a bit of hype |
| 15:58 | but very little in the way of facts | |
| 15:59 | owen | We're starting to see some 'not if but when' articles in the mainstream here, but none of the terrifying death tolls predicted in other more obscure sources |
| 15:59 | chris | mostly it seems to be "if this mutates and becomes a killer virus, it will be a killer virus" |
| 15:59 | which isnt rocket science :) | |
| 16:00 | crowded cities .. those will be the places to stay out of | |
| 16:02 | i suspect where you guys are would be quite a safe place :) | |
| 16:03 | got plans for xmas? | |
| 16:03 | owen | Not a trip to Bali like my wife wanted |
| 16:04 | chris | good thinking |
| 16:05 | bali is almost to nz .. just come here :) | |
| 16:05 | though, not this xmas, cos ill be pittsburgh so wont be here to show you round :) | |
| 16:05 | thd | chris: Then, I am in one of the most dangerous places on earth :) |
| 16:06 | chris | shanghai? ... or more likely new york city? |
| 16:06 | owen | thd, are you in one of the most crowded cities on earth? |
| 16:06 | chris | ahh |
| 16:07 | i have a soft spot for NYC | |
| 16:08 | bummer | |
| 16:09 | thd | chris: It is bad if on the subway everyone in the same car is coughing or otherwise manifesting some illness. |
| 16:09 | chris: Then it is unavoidable. | |
| 16:09 | kados | bradl: hey chris |
| 16:09 | oops ;-) | |
| 16:10 | chris | heya kados |
| 16:10 | kados | how's laurel? |
| 16:11 | chris | shes doing much better |
| 16:11 | had a good nights sleep last night | |
| 16:11 | kados | sweet |
| 16:12 | thd | sleep is very important |
| 00:00 | thd-away | chris: Is there any reason that branches.branchcode cannot be changed from varchar(4) to varchar(8) or something to support more flexible naming of virtual branches? |
| 00:03 | thd | chris: My idea is to have virtual branch codes better related to the branches to which they correspond. |
| 00:05 | chris: So, a virtual branch code for the branch MAIN might be MAINREPA or even MAINREPAIR. | |
| 00:06 | chris: Would such a change in the size of branches.branchcode break anything? | |
| 00:08 | rach | Chris is out at the moment |
| 00:09 | thd | rach: Do you know if my idea would break something? |
| 00:11 | rach: Do branch categories do anything meaningful? | |
| 00:11 | s/meaningful/functional/ | |
| 00:11 | rach | I think that's actually a question for paul, he put them in |
| 00:11 | I'm not sure what he uses them for | |
| 00:11 | chris | yes they do |
| 00:11 | im back | |
| 00:11 | rach | oh look he's back :-0" |
| 00:11 | chris | and i think i may have put those in |
| 00:12 | rach | shows what I know :-) |
| 00:12 | thd | chris: What do branch categories do then? |
| 00:13 | chris | well often ppl only want certain branches to show |
| 00:13 | for instance at hlt, only branches of type IS show at circulations | |
| 00:14 | thd | chris: how are the others hidden? |
| 00:15 | chris | you just tell get branches to only get branches that belong to a certain category |
| 00:15 | ahh now i remember | |
| 00:15 | i had category as a column | |
| 00:15 | thd | chris: With a custom modification of the code? |
| 00:15 | chris | paul made it a seperate table, which allows a branch to belong to more than one category (which is handy) |
| 00:16 | soon no thd, when i put the fix back in | |
| 00:16 | it used to work, but got busted when they got made a seperate table | |
| 00:16 | ive fixed it for 2.2 | |
| 00:17 | well the next release after this anyway | |
| 00:17 | thd | chris: So there should be a brarches.hidebranch column? |
| 00:17 | chris | no |
| 00:17 | you should just set a variable in the template | |
| 00:18 | which is used to determine what category should be showing | |
| 00:18 | thd | chris: Where is the variable stored? |
| 00:18 | chris | in the template |
| 00:18 | and passed as input | |
| 00:19 | eg <input type=hidden name="branchcategory" value="IS"> | |
| 00:19 | by default it will just show you all branches | |
| 00:20 | its not so much hidden branches, just some should only show on certain pages | |
| 00:20 | it doesnt hurt to have the others there | |
| 00:20 | thd | chris: How can that work without storing the invisible branch value somewhere? |
| 00:21 | chris | quite easily |
| 00:21 | its not an invisible branch | |
| 00:21 | is is category | |
| 00:21 | is a | |
| 00:22 | thd | chris: Invisible in OPAC category? |
| 00:22 | chris | no |
| 00:22 | for HLT IS = Issues | |
| 00:22 | you could have ZQ = Can circulate books | |
| 00:22 | or anything | |
| 00:23 | it doesnt matter what the actual code is | |
| 00:23 | getbranches($type) | |
| 00:23 | will find all branches belonging to $type | |
| 00:23 | getbranches() will find all branches | |
| 00:24 | thd | chris: How does getbranches() know which not to display in the OPAC? |
| 00:25 | chris | 2 ways, you can put a hidden input in the form that calls whatever page shows branches |
| 00:25 | to tell it | |
| 00:25 | or you can just whack it in the code | |
| 00:27 | opac-renew.pl is the only script that uses it | |
| 00:27 | sorry, opac-reserve.pl | |
| 00:29 | thd | chris: Yet the status of hidden must be stored somewhere after the original branch category creation form has been submitted and expired? |
| 00:29 | chris | why? |
| 00:30 | next time you submit the form you will be passing it to the script | |
| 00:30 | thd | chris: I hope the user only has to define branch categories once :) |
| 00:31 | chris | what user? |
| 00:31 | thd | chris: superlibrarian |
| 00:31 | chris | they can define them once, none, 20 times |
| 00:31 | its entirely up to them | |
| 00:32 | thd | chris: I mean every time that getbranches() runs there is no need to resubmit a branch categories form marking a category hidden :) |
| 00:33 | chris | no no no |
| 00:33 | you dont mark a category hidden | |
| 00:33 | you tell getbranches what category you want to show | |
| 00:33 | eg | |
| 00:34 | http://opac.rangitikei.katipo.[…]koha/opac-main.pl | |
| 00:34 | thd | chris: You make a custom modification of the script? |
| 00:34 | chris | no |
| 00:34 | you make a modification of the template of script which calls the script | |
| 00:34 | thats showing all branches | |
| 00:35 | thd | chris: sorry template, yes. |
| 00:38 | chris: would it not be easier to define branchcategories.hidden, branchcategories.hiddenopactemplate, etc. ? | |
| 00:38 | rach | I think the short answer is "yes" If you use the same branch categories say as we do, and our templates, then you'll get the same branches showing in different places as we do |
| 00:39 | you could if things were more stable - but there are a lot of different places you want different things to show | |
| 00:40 | so you want different categories to show in isuues, returns, transfers, different places in the opac as well I think | |
| 00:40 | thd | rach: There would seem to be an advantage for default templates to support maximally useful default behaviour. |
| 00:41 | rach | so this isnt' necessarily how it will always be, but we haven't necessarily achieved consesus on what you would show where |
| 00:41 | I suspect it is easier (for people who have been doing the development) not to try and abstract them out yet | |
| 00:42 | at the moment it's very flexible if you're working with a bigger library | |
| 00:42 | because realistically you're in | |
| 00:42 | thd | chris: I originally wanted to ask the following. Is there any reason that branches.branchcode cannot be changed from varchar(4) to varchar(8) or something to support more flexible naming of virtual branches? |
| 00:42 | rach | "touching |
| 00:42 | templates anyway - and it makes it quick and easy to get it right | |
| 00:44 | would naming them differently imply then that they were something they aren't? | |
| 00:44 | like if you give them a "plain english" name, would that fool you into thinking that they were going to display? | |
| 00:46 | thd | rach: Never mind my suggestion. Templates may well be the right place to implement this. However, template configuration features need their own documentation that does not depend upon the prospective adopter hunting for comments in every template :) |
| 00:46 | rach | yeah, I'm not arguing that if all you want to change is this one thing it's a royal pain to work it out |
| 00:47 | the branchcode thing may be a hangover from our original development | |
| 00:47 | i'm pretty sure the codes from HLT's old system were all 4 | |
| 00:47 | thd | rach: I have to know that there is something there designated for configuration unless I reinvent a new method every time. |
| 00:47 | chris | thd: its not hidden its exactly the opposite from hidden |
| 00:48 | thd | chris: Sorry, what is not hidden? |
| 00:49 | chris | branches of a certain category |
| 00:49 | you can tell it to only show branches of a certain category | |
| 00:49 | of course a branch can belong to mulitple categories | |
| 00:50 | thd | chris: I see, that is opposite, 'non-hidden' :) |
| 00:50 | chris: visible | |
| 00:50 | chris | yep, by default koha just displays all, with a bit of tweaking its easy to make it display different ones in different places |
| 00:50 | depending on what you want | |
| 00:51 | rach | but that is the sort of thing that isn't very well documented for the DIYer I suspect |
| 00:52 | if you're thinking that you can get a setup like NPL or HLT without "touching" the templates I guess we should disabuse people of that notion | |
| 00:53 | thd | rach: 4 character standard library names are universal I was just trying to find a way for using a mnemonic in a branch code for a virtual branch with the same mnemonic for associating the virtual branch with the branch. |
| 00:55 | chris | in what way rach? |
| 00:55 | rach | um that sounds like cheating :-) |
| 00:55 | sorry 2 thoughts going | |
| 00:55 | thd | rach: Many sophisticated proprietary systems may have extensive configuration options for the user who is not allowed to touch the closed code. |
| 00:55 | chris | then again they may not |
| 00:55 | rach | um I think koha differes from commercial systems in that you are expected to alter the templates directly |
| 00:56 | chris | or are in fact allowed to |
| 00:56 | rach | rather than do everything through extensive configuration options |
| 00:57 | thd | rach: However, proprietary systems can leave out user options for special expensive custom configuration that the user has no ability to configure himself because of no access to the code. |
| 00:57 | rach | and we tend to move variables to configuration options only when we've got a clear understanding of what htey should do |
| 00:57 | so in the begining htere where almost no configuration options, each release there are more | |
| 00:57 | chris | thd: exactly thats what i was trying to say :) |
| 00:58 | thd | rach: yes, of course, you should have a clear idea from experience about what options people want rather than turning the system administration into an airline instrument panel :) |
| 01:01 | rach: system behaviour has to conform to something useful practise model learnt from experience otherwise the user will crash Koha at first outing and look elsewhere for an ILS :) | |
| 01:02 | rach: Crashing is a little too easy with MARC 21 Koha. MARC 21 Koha has to catch up to UNIMARC Koha with basic safety defaults. | |
| 01:04 | chris: Would any change in the size of branches.branchcode break anything? | |
| 01:06 | chris | nope that should be safe enough |
| 01:06 | ok, ive gotta go sort out some dinner | |
| 01:07 | thd | chris: There might be a simpler means of implementing my idea with branch categories but I cannot think of that well enough yet. |
| 01:07 | chris: happy nourishment | |
| 04:23 | Malin | hi |
| 04:24 | paul | who is Malin ? |
| 04:24 | Malin | guess koha 2.2.4 isn't released yet? |
| 04:24 | paul | should be in 2 days |
| 04:24 | Malin | cool |
| 04:24 | paul | (maybe monday) |
| 04:24 | Malin | paul, FYI: i'm a librarian from Poland :-) |
| 04:25 | paul | a polish librarian using Koha ? |
| 04:25 | Malin | no, not using koha |
| 04:25 | i'll be just writing about it | |
| 04:26 | although there are some libraries in Poland using koha afaik | |
| 04:30 | ok, gotta go | |
| 04:30 | thanks for the info | |
| 04:30 | see ya :-) | |
| 10:03 | paul | hdl_away : bonne nouvelle dans ta boite mail ;-) |
| 10:35 | Sylvain | hi all ! |
| 10:37 | paul j'ai une petite question (comme à chaque fois, c'est ce qui me fait penser à lancer irc :)). A l'ENSMP ils m'ont fait une remarque pas idiote c'est que pour les prêts, ça serait bien que le titre de la page soit différent pour les sorties et les retours. T'en penses quoi ? Pour, Contre, Sans opinion ? (ça oblige à rajouter une un xx-top dans les includes) | |
| 10:37 | paul | plutôt une bonne idée. |
| 10:38 | mais comme on reprend toute l'ergonomie dans la 3.0, ca va peut être etre inutile | |
| 10:38 | comme remarque | |
| 10:38 | Sylvain | ok. |
| 10:38 | je vais peut être me contenter de leur faire la modif chez eux alors |
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