jabber.ttllp.co.uk← Previous day | Today | Next day → | Search | Index
All times shown according to UTC.
| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:34 | Ryanbisd | its quiet in here now.. |
| 12:37 | owen | Getting late for folks in France, and still too early for folks in New Zealand |
| 12:43 | Ryanbisd | ahh... |
| 13:21 | thd_ | What is done in Canadian libraries to bridge the MARC21 or CANMARC divide with UNIMARC? I would think good format interoperability would be very important for libraries there. |
| 13:32 | owen | We used to have a Canadian contributor, but he hasn't been heard from in a long time |
| 14:17 | Ryanbisd | I take it you can edit the different themes? |
| 14:17 | put in your own logos etc? | |
| 14:18 | thd_ | owen: The Koha Québec map is especially sparsely populated. |
| 14:19 | owen | Ryanbisd, you can muck around with templates to your heart's content |
| 14:19 | Ryanbisd | haha |
| 14:19 | owen | The TMPL files are mostly plain HTML |
| 14:20 | The best way to go is to copy and rename the whole directory (e.g. \intranet-tmpl\default\en) | |
| 14:20 | ...to /intranet-tmpl/ryan/en or something unique | |
| 14:20 | Then switch templates in system preferences | |
| 14:23 | thd_ | Ryanbisd: Of course you would need to add template 'ryan' to the value list that appears on the same system preferences page. |
| 14:26 | owen | No, those are automatically generated |
| 14:29 | thd_ | owen: realy, it reads the file system? |
| 14:29 | owen | Yes |
| 14:29 | thd_ | owen: well that is very nice :) |
| 14:30 | owen: will it design my templates for me? :) | |
| 14:31 | owen | No, sorry. Maybe in v. 5.0. |
| 14:32 | thd_ | owen: be sure to add that to the roadmap :] |
| 14:33 | owen | ...right between "Makes cappuccino" and "cures Athlete's Foot" |
| 15:42 | slef | hi all |
| 15:43 | jcamins | Hello. |
| 15:45 | slef | Anyone else here for the installer? |
| 15:46 | jcamins | I am. (Jared Camins... although you probably guessed) |
| 15:46 | slef | cool... good to see you |
| 15:47 | jcamins | I didn't think I'd be able to make such good time; sorry you had to reschedule to later on my account, and then have me show up early. |
| 15:47 | slef | no worries... early evenings aren't great for me, really |
| 15:48 | (it's now 21:45 local time) | |
| 15:49 | jcamins | It's going to take me a while to get used to working with people outside my timezone. It's 16:45 in New Jersey. |
| 15:50 | slef | on today's list traffic: what is TCL? Does it mean Tcl? |
| 15:50 | jcamins | I believe so. That was my assumption, anyway. |
| 15:51 | Presumably someone who's more familiar with Zebra could actually tell you for sure. | |
| 15:51 | slef | well, I guess it's an abbreviation really, like laser |
| 15:54 | jcamins | Did anyone else say they were planning on coming to this meeting? |
| 15:55 | slef | not yet, but I guess we'll see |
| 15:55 | would have been better if I'd been able to email the list last week | |
| 15:55 | I'm still waiting for a summary to return to me :-/ | |
| 15:55 | jcamins | A summary of what? |
| 15:56 | slef | 2.3 development work |
| 15:56 | jcamins | Ah. |
| 15:56 | As you know, I'm new to Koha, so I'll be playing catch-up for quite a while, I suspect. | |
| 15:57 | slef | hey, I still am :-/ |
| 15:57 | the whole z39.50 side is a mystery to me | |
| 15:58 | jcamins | Actually, that's one of the few things I understand. Well, to some extent. |
| 15:59 | slef | So, why is it so tricky to get running? ;-) |
| 15:59 | jcamins | Oh, that I don't know. I understand from the library's point-of-view. |
| 15:59 | slef | well, I get how the protocol and concept works |
| 16:00 | jcamins | I have most of my experience with Voyager. If something doesn't work right with Voyager, the incredibly expensive service contract takes care of it. ;) |
| 16:01 | slef | I just don't understand why we keep the daemon. Maybe zebra will help that? |
| 16:02 | so, who's here? slef, jcamins, anyone else? | |
| 16:02 | What topics do we want to cover? | |
| 16:03 | thd_ | I am here but ... |
| 16:04 | slef | owen, thd_: jump in if anything occurs |
| 16:04 | I suggested: general structure, auto-install and localisation. | |
| 16:04 | hah, let's wait for a few moments :-/ | |
| 16:06 | jcamins | Oops. |
| 16:06 | slef | welcome back jcamins. The X closes the window. ;-) |
| 16:06 | jcamins | This is the first time using xchat, and apparently whatever keys I just hit are not supposed to be hit. |
| 16:06 | slef | I suggested: general structure, auto-install and localisation. |
| 16:06 | jcamins | Sounds good to me. |
| 16:06 | slef | Any other topics we should cover? |
| 16:07 | jcamins | None come to mind. |
| 16:07 | slef | So, shall we aim for 15 minutes for each, or does one need more time? |
| 16:08 | jcamins | I think 15 minute each is probably reasonable. |
| 16:09 | slef | I'll introduce the current situation, then ask where we should go. |
| 16:10 | Currently, there's Install.pm containing the functions that do the actual installing, the messages displayed (english only so far) and a few helper routines. | |
| 16:11 | Then there's install.pl and koha.upgrade (different authors, so different naming styles) which call those functions in an order to do an install or upgrade. | |
| 16:11 | Finally, there are some .sql files to create the database and updatedatabase which upgrades old koha databases to the current schema. | |
| 16:12 | Obvious problems are that it doesn't make for easy packaging and it isn't a good example of software engineering (low cohesion and poor coupling) | |
| 16:13 | So, what do we want from an installer? | |
| 16:13 | jcamins | Just to check, the most recent versions of all those files ARE the ones in the koha/misc module, right? |
| 16:13 | slef | yes |
| 16:13 | I think updatedatabase might be elsewhere in the tree. | |
| 16:14 | jcamins | Yeah. koha/updater |
| 16:14 | thd_ | postgres support |
| 16:15 | slef | jcamins: what's motivating your improvements? |
| 16:15 | thd_: I think that needs the other teams to agree, too. Postgres support in the installer wouldn't be too hard IMO. | |
| 16:15 | jcamins | My goal is to create a port that can be a part of the FreeBSD ports collection. |
| 16:16 | slef | thd_: support in the installer won't make the rest of koha use it, though. |
| 16:16 | jcamins | (a "port" in this sense is basically a Makefile specifying how to install the files; one of the requirements for getting a port committed is that user intervention not be required at installation) |
| 16:16 | slef | jcamins: would it be easier to have a configure/build/install division? |
| 16:16 | jcamins | Yes. |
| 16:17 | thd_ | I have not asked about postgres before. I found other questions more pressing. |
| 16:17 | jcamins | The ports collection is designed around such a configuration (configure/build/install), although, of course, there are ways to get around that, such as eliminating the configure stage. |
| 16:17 | slef | thd_: I'll talk to you about it in 32minutes, if you want. |
| 16:18 | thd_ | slef: please do |
| 16:19 | slef | jcamins: the main steps in the installation are figuring out the configuration (from httpd.conf and so on), writing the configuration files (= build?) and installing files and database |
| 16:20 | actually, it checks dependencies first | |
| 16:20 | jcamins | Writing files to the system is always part of the "install" phase in the FreeBSD ports system. |
| 16:21 | slef | sure. I mean creating the files with the right contents... they could be copied to /etc in the install |
| 16:21 | jcamins | Yeah, I'd agree. |
| 16:22 | slef | Are other perl webapps packaged for freebsd? |
| 16:22 | jcamins | I'm sure. Let me see if I can find an example |
| 16:22 | slef | preferably something pretty complicated |
| 16:22 | jcamins | I'd say Webmin qualifies. |
| 16:23 | thd_ | everything should utimately be packaged for a particular OS if one has the resources to do so |
| 16:23 | slef | (wow, zabriskie crashed on near-final corner of Tour de France TTT) |
| 16:24 | jcamins: do you have a URL for webmin's ports makefile? | |
| 16:24 | jcamins | Hold on a moment. I'll find it. |
| 16:24 | thd_ | there once was a Debian package and a Red Hat package |
| 16:25 | what happened to their maintainers? | |
| 16:25 | jcamins | http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvs[…]/sysutils/webmin/ |
| 16:25 | slef | I don't know. I'd adopt a debian and upload it (I am a DD) |
| 16:25 | thd_ | slef: DD? |
| 16:26 | jcamins | I'm willing to do the RPM, unless there's someone more qualified. |
| 16:26 | slef | would it be better to call ./installer.pl --configure or to have three scripts doing configure, build and install? |
| 16:26 | thd_: Debian Developer | |
| 16:27 | chris | there was a .deb for 1.2 .. steve tonnessen did it |
| 16:27 | jcamins | Hm... I've seen ports which do things both ways. The advantage to splitting it up into multiple scripts is that it would be easier for a developer to find the part that s/he is looking for. The advantage to not splitting it is that the developer is more likely to remember all three stages. |
| 16:27 | thd_ | what happened to steve tonnessen? |
| 16:27 | chris | he got busy |
| 16:28 | slef | jcamins: I think I can see other benefits, in that we could be conservative which prerequisites are needed in configure, but use all the toys in build and install |
| 16:30 | jcamins | That's a good point. Split it, then? |
| 16:30 | slef | If we have configure/build/install, what does auto-install mean? Does it just become some input to the configure stage? |
| 16:30 | jcamins | Yeah, I think that would be about it. |
| 16:31 | slef | Cool. So, time for an extra question: can MakeMaker do this for us, or is that for C bindings? |
| 16:31 | jcamins | I'm not familiar with MakeMaker. |
| 16:32 | Oops. You meant the Perl MakeMaker. | |
| 16:32 | slef | me neither... I'm trying to see how apps are packaged for cpan.org and failing to navigate it. |
| 16:33 | CPAN only accepts modules and scripts, not multi-script applications. | |
| 16:33 | jcamins | I found a tutorial on MakeMaker from IBM, just using Google. |
| 16:33 | slef | URL? |
| 16:34 | jcamins | http://www-106.ibm.com/develop[…]brary/l-make.html |
| 16:34 | Actually, this looks very similar to the way the FreeBSD ports system works. | |
| 16:35 | slef | ; man ExtUtils::MakeMaker |
| 16:36 | jcamins | Wow that's embarrassing. In my defense, up until recently I primarily used Perl on Windows. ;-) |
| 16:36 | slef | oh, I often miss the blindingly obvious |
| 16:38 | jcamins | I'm not clear on whether or not the configuration can be done with MakeMaker. The installation of files certainly could be. |
| 16:38 | slef | Me neither. One to research. |
| 16:39 | jcamins | Yeah. It would be great, though, to use a standard installer. |
| 16:39 | slef | Probably be more useful for koha developers to learn, and more attractive to potential developers |
| 16:40 | jcamins | Lower the barrier for entry, and reassure the sysadmins who don't like custom scripts. |
| 16:40 | slef | I'll probably take a look and post any notes to koha-devel |
| 16:40 | (unless someone beats me to it) | |
| 16:41 | jcamins | Great. I'll look as well, although it'll probably take me a while to understand it. Perl is not one of the language I have a lot of experience in. |
| 16:41 | slef | I've a while doing perl, but koha is a bigger scale than most I've done |
| 16:41 | jcamins | Localization is something that I have no experience whatsoever with. |
| 16:42 | slef | At the moment, the installer reads all its messages from strings set in Install.pm |
| 16:42 | They're stored in a two-level hash and {en} is one of the keys, so I think someone intended l10n later | |
| 16:43 | I'm not sure that a hash of format strings is the best way of doing it. | |
| 16:43 | jcamins | Is there any standard for specifying translations in an external file? |
| 16:43 | thd_ | I do not know the tool, but is gettext a standard tool for command line localisation? |
| 16:44 | slef | In perl 5.8, Locale::Maketext is in the core. The installer could use that, but it would make koha need perl 5.8. |
| 16:44 | thd_: gettext is a common tool, but I don't think it's in perl core. Maketext's man page has a rant about gettext. | |
| 16:45 | man Locale::Maketext::TPJ13 | |
| 16:45 | jcamins | gettext also seems to be backwards-incompatible every other version. |
| 16:45 | thd_ | I seem to remeber a discussion advocating perl 5.8 as a minimum for future versions of koha |
| 16:46 | slef | I'm not sure this is such a big issue if we can pull off configure/build/install |
| 16:46 | rather than having the installer be a Q&A session | |
| 16:46 | jcamins | That's true. |
| 16:46 | Also, I'd think there would be some way to fall-back to English if localization wasn't available? | |
| 16:46 | slef | thd_: can you find that discussion? |
| 16:47 | jcamins: most ways allow fallback to original language (hey, I may decide to write the original in esperanto, just to annoy the latin crowd ;-) ) | |
| 16:48 | jcamins | slef: You know Esperanto? |
| 16:48 | slef | jes |
| 16:48 | learnt it last autumn | |
| 16:48 | jcamins | Useful, is it? |
| 16:49 | slef | to sum up the plan: study MakeMaker and see if it's possible; split installer into the three stages; leave l10n until later |
| 16:50 | jcamins: pli | |
| 16:50 | jcamins | Yeah. |
| 16:50 | Sounds good to me. | |
| 16:51 | slef | thd_: I've asked for postgres in the past, but until 2.2 at least, MySQLisms were fairly well ingrained all through koha. |
| 16:51 | chris | its getting less |
| 16:52 | jcamins | The optimizations that were discussed a couple of weeks ago would strengthen the requirement on MySQL, though, wouldn't they? |
| 16:52 | slef | jcamins: I can't learn all the world's languages, so it's useful for s.america and asia via gxangalo.com and raporto.info |
| 16:52 | chris | most of the mysqlism were to try to get the search faster .. which if we move to using zebra as the base, we wont need |
| 16:52 | i dont think so jcamins .. should be the opposite id be hoping | |
| 16:53 | jcamins | There was something about MySQL 4.1 being required for some sort of index... Zebra would eliminate that? |
| 16:54 | thd_ | I had hoped koha was DBI abstracted |
| 16:54 | slef | early mysqls were pretty low on features... I still think postgres has more in most ways |
| 16:54 | chris | yeah, i wrote koha with postgres first |
| 16:54 | jcamins | I don't know. We always used MySQL because of the early Windows port. |
| 16:55 | chris | ported to mysql in about november 99 |
| 16:55 | just for speed | |
| 16:55 | mysql has gained features postgres has gained speed | |
| 16:55 | jcamins | I'd be happy to learn Postgres and help out with that if people want to give me some pointers (and this is something that is going to be done). |
| 16:55 | chris | they have nearly met in the middle now |
| 16:55 | there should be too many mysqlisms in the code i wrote, but i dont know how much of that is left anymore :) | |
| 16:56 | slef | thd_: DBI is only half the struggle. There's still a question of what sql strings you feed it. Until the security update, a lot of bits of koha were doing things like $dbh->do("select * from here where a = '".mysqlquote($foo)."'"); |
| 16:56 | chris | i doubt there is any of that anymore |
| 16:56 | but it wouldnt hurt to do an audit and kill whatever there is | |
| 16:56 | slef | if there is, someone's been adding them again :-/ |
| 16:57 | chris | C4::Biblio |
| 16:57 | would be my guess | |
| 16:58 | the code makes use of mysqls auto_increment in some places .. but you can do the same with postgres | |
| 16:59 | i think if we can move to more independence without sacrificing speed then that should be a goal for the next major release | |
| 16:59 | but its easy to say that :) | |
| 17:00 | anyway, i better get back to work | |
| 17:00 | slef | Is it on the roadmap? |
| 17:00 | chris | not sure slef |
| 17:00 | slef | ok, thanks for the comments :) |
| 17:00 | thd_ | did you have speed issues before related to postgres specifically? |
| 17:01 | chris | a long time ago |
| 17:01 | and that may have been due to my ineptitude more than postgres | |
| 17:01 | but i did manage to speed koha up a lot by throwing mysql at it | |
| 17:02 | thd_ | it seems that postgres may not optimise well with limited ram |
| 17:02 | chris | and since it was november and it had to go live jan 3 2000 .. that was the solution that stuck :) |
| 17:02 | thd_ | but both postgres and mysql should be options if nothing is tied to one |
| 17:02 | slef | It's not on http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes although there are other database comments |
| 17:02 | talk to kados, see if you can get it in | |
| 17:03 | chris | will do |
| 17:03 | jcamins | Well, if you want to make Postgres and MySQL an option, those with more RAM can use Postgres, those with less RAM Mysql, right? |
| 17:03 | slef | I'd say I'd help, but I've already other things I want to do during 2.3 |
| 17:03 | chris | yeah, me too, but if we get it on the map, someone might step up |
| 17:04 | thd_ | an effort needs to be made to control the db flavour specific code to keep it from reappearing |
| 17:04 | jcamins | I'd help out as best I'm able, after the installer is finished, but I don't know that my help would necessarily be an asset to the effort. |
| 17:05 | slef | thd_: if you have time, you can follow koha-cvs list posts and correct/LART offences |
| 17:06 | chris: I'm not sure whther kados will start to cull tasks without developers | |
| 17:07 | thd_ | slef: I found the require 5.8 discussion. You were there participating. |
| 17:08 | slef: I will retreive a link. | |
| 17:08 | chris | yeah slef, we might need to do an orphaned tasks email and see if we can get some voluteers |
| 17:10 | jcamins | slef: how/when are we going to follow up on dividing the installer into configure/build/install? |
| 17:12 | slef | jcamins: first thing is to test MakeMaker and send notes to the list. After that, just start hacking the installer and sending patches. If you want to ask my opinion, drop me an email and I'll report or come on IRC, or you can jabber at mjrjabber.ttllp.co.uk |
| 17:13 | jcamins | slef: Okay. Sounds good. Thanks! |
| 17:13 | slef | warn me if you're starting any really big surprises |
| 17:14 | If MakeMaker can't do it, I'd suggest making installer.pl into the install stage | |
| 17:14 | thd_ | slef: I guess there was not much more than this 25/06/05 07:14:49+-5<slef:#koha>I'm wondering whether koha should start moving towards Locale::Maketext now that it's in the perl core since 5.8 |
| 17:14 | slef | and writing new configure.pl and build.pl scripts |
| 17:14 | thd_: heh. | |
| 17:15 | jcamins | I will, but I'm inclined to doubt that I'll do anything very large or very surprising without pestering you for feedback. ;-) |
| 17:17 | slef | Ah, it's "Where eagles dare" |
| 17:17 | "Agenten sterben einsam" just doesn't suggest that to me | |
| 17:25 | Genji | hiya all! |
| 17:27 | slef | hi genji |
| 17:28 | Genji | how goes it? |
| 17:34 | slef | slowly |
| 01:28 | osmoze | hello all |
| 06:13 | glatp | was the meeting over? |
| 07:42 | Ryanbisd | Good mornin all.. |
| 07:51 | jean | hi |
| 08:14 | Is there a need to upgrade the 2.2 database when moving to 2.3 ? | |
| 08:20 | hdl | No. |
| 08:21 | Nothing changed ;) | |
| 08:21 | jean | ok thx :) . Nice answer |
| 08:39 | kados | hdl: I installed Koha 2.2.3 last night ... and got an error from the installer: |
| 08:39 | hdl: DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'aqbudgetid' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1117.DBD::mysql::st execute failed: Invalid default value for 'id' at scripts/updater/updatedatabase line 1117. | |
| 08:39 | hdl: this was a new install | |
| 08:40 | hdl | kados : Odd ! I didnot commit anything for quite a few days now. |
| 08:41 | But I am working onbudget. | |
| 08:43 | wait !! | |
| 08:43 | I saw a line in updater : aqbudget : aqbudgetid... | |
| 08:45 | kados : Was the base a brand new one from 2.0 ??? | |
| 08:46 | I cant see any aqbudgetid addition in cvs logs... | |
| 08:58 | kados | hdl: very strange |
| 08:58 | hdl: I downloaded 2.2.3 and installed using the installer | |
| 08:58 | hdl: on a brand new system | |
| 08:59 | hdl: so base was not from 2.0 | |
| 09:01 | hdl | did you try to look into the databse to see whether aqbudgetid was already there ? |
| 09:02 | Brand new system ? | |
| 09:02 | Which version of mysql ? | |
| 09:02 | Maybe a change in autoincrement management system ? | |
| 09:02 | Would you investigate in that direction ? | |
| 09:50 | kados | hdl: the db was brand new |
| 09:50 | hdl: so aqbudgetid was not there | |
| 09:50 | hdl: version 4.1 of mysql | |
| 09:51 | thd | I noticed the same issue installing 2.2.2b |
| 09:51 | hdl | Is TinyInt allowed as auto_increment variable in this mysql version. |
| 09:52 | kados | hdl: hmmm ... not sure |
| 09:52 | hdl | I had no problems of that kind. |
| 09:54 | thd | Also, there was a discussion as part of yesterday's installer meeting about removing Mysql specific code to support Koha in Postgres |
| 09:55 | kados | hdl: not a bad idea |
| 09:56 | thd | chris had removed some mysql specific code but others had been reintroducing such code |
| 09:58 | hdl | I always installed kohabase from older bases... So no idea to know if mysql would be qmsldk with updatedatabase. |
| 10:34 | kados | owen: I suspect googlebot or some other bot |
| 10:35 | owen | Damn you googlebot!!!!1 |
| 10:36 | kados | :-) |
| 10:52 | tim | Were you able to dig up my Athena ramblings from the mailing list kados? |
| 11:07 | thd | tim: were referring to these http://lists.katipo.co.nz/publ[…]/2005/004610.html http://lists.katipo.co.nz/publ[…]/2004/003234.html ? |
| 11:40 | tim | thd: Yeah. the first link was one of 'em. |
| 11:46 | thd | tim: what issues are you having with your record migration? |
| 11:51 | tim | The MARC records seem to be in there ok now. |
| 11:51 | Patron records and current issues seem to be there too. | |
| 11:52 | But overdues don't print, so I probably have something wrong there. | |
| 11:52 | I'm looking into reserves |
← Previous day | Today | Next day → | Search | Index
