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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:06 | kados | shaun: that's great news |
| 12:07 | shaun: I'll be sending out an email today | |
| 12:07 | shaun: calling an IRC meeting | |
| 12:07 | so stay tuned ;-) | |
| 12:37 | slef | kados: can you approve me back onto koha-manage? |
| 12:37 | (changed email address) | |
| 12:37 | that's assuming I should be there still ;-) | |
| 12:48 | shaun | I have run into some problems about what we sell ourselves as |
| 12:49 | (after talking to shedges yesterday about it) | |
| 12:49 | kados | slef: I haven't gotten my superpowers yet ;-) |
| 12:50 | shaun | to recap: "maintained by a team of volunteers" suggests two things: "nerds" and "unprofessional" to a conservative user |
| 12:50 | (or at least a potential user, which is most damaging) | |
| 12:51 | "open source" needs to be considered - there are plenty of ILS running on things like ASP, but not GPL-compliant | |
| 12:51 | kados | shaun: how's this: |
| 12:51 | Koha, the first "free and open-source" integrated library system | |
| 12:51 | Developed initially in New Zealand by Katipo Communications Ltd. and first | |
| 12:51 | +deployed in January of 2000, Koha's development is currently steered by a | |
| 12:51 | +growing community of libraries collaborating to achieve their technology goals. | |
| 12:51 | +Koha is a full-featured ILS including: a catalogue, OPAC, circulation, | |
| 12:51 | +acquisitions, cataloging, administration and reporting. It is fully MARC | |
| 12:51 | +compliant and supports Z39.50 (client and server). | |
| 12:52 | I'd like to focus on the 'steered by libraries' ... Koha is software built FOR librarians | |
| 12:52 | they pick what gets done | |
| 12:52 | shedges | I think slef had some other language (irc a couple of days ago) -- more than just libraries |
| 12:52 | shaun | good - that's also what I have been focusing on in my (now 11 pages, *sigh*) report to DHSB Library |
| 12:54 | owen | That's your school library shaun? |
| 12:55 | kados | shedges: it's true that agencies other than libraries are doing the work on Koha ... but I'd like to focus on the fact that it's the libraries that are 'steering' that development |
| 12:55 | owen | I think that's a fair thing to say, kados. |
| 12:55 | shedges | gotcha |
| 12:56 | shaun | yes - devonport high school for boys, http://www.dhsb.org/ --hopefully there'll be some opac on there ;-) |
| 12:56 | owen | shaun, are you proposing some kind of formal support contract with them? |
| 12:57 | shaun | I was hoping I could find an agency to do it - anybody know TTLLP's rates? |
| 12:58 | me being a student there, I will probably pop in and feel the warmth coming from the server every now and then though. | |
| 12:59 | indradg | kados, shedges, slef, shaun : now that various agencies across the world are contributing to Koha can I suggest something abt this "maintained by a team of volunteers" biz |
| 13:00 | provides rach and others at Katipo are OK with it | |
| 13:00 | shaun | aha - kados, have you considered opening up a task group for implementations in educational establishments? particularly secondary schools, as they could benefit hugely from koha, provided it has support. |
| 13:00 | indradg | how about "Developed and maintained by the Koha Consortium" ? |
| 13:01 | owen | open a task group? What does that mean? |
| 13:01 | kados | shaun: not sure what you mean |
| 13:01 | shaun | a la the ones kados mentioned in his e-mail to the list |
| 13:01 | shedges | most of the code comments recognize "Koha Development Team" |
| 13:01 | (often misspelled) | |
| 13:01 | owen | shaun, I don't think we have enough school-oriented users right now to form such a group |
| 13:02 | shaun | e.g. website/interface design, documentation, i18n etc. |
| 13:03 | indradg | i think owen has a point here |
| 13:03 | shaun | imo, it's the second largest potential "market" though |
| 13:03 | owen | Sure, but those of us working on koha have to be selfish in what we work on. It has to be relevent to our own organizations |
| 13:06 | kados | shaun: I think it's a good thing to talk about within the context of our 'interface design' discussion |
| 13:06 | i.e., should we include different templates based on the library type | |
| 13:07 | shaun | why's that? one template should rule them all |
| 13:07 | kados | but I don't think we have enough designers to form a new 'focus group' devoted to just that design |
| 13:07 | owen | I was wondering this morning if we should investigate how to do a customized home page, letting users choose which nagigational elements they wanted |
| 13:07 | indradg | kados, remember I mentioned AACR2 style cataloging templates in a priv msg to you during the meeting? |
| 13:08 | kados | shaun: although I believe seperating content from presentation is a good goal, it's not always possible |
| 13:08 | indradg: yep | |
| 13:08 | shaun | It's just the "sales structure" that should be more specific - have a look at softlink (www.softlink.co.uk) - they have it right, i.e. they sell the same ILS products but with different highlighted features. |
| 13:08 | indradg | well... being a non-librarian, libraries across India (the automated ones) use one or two particular s/w developed in India |
| 13:09 | shaun | e.g. a school would find inline display pictures of the members /very/ useful, whereas a public library does not - so it can be turned on or off in parameters |
| 13:09 | indradg | In these s/w, the cataloging interface apparently resembles the catalog card style followed by AACR2 standard |
| 13:09 | kados | shaun: if that's all we're talking about than I tend to agree |
| 13:10 | indradg | the Koha interface is quite removed from that, and librarians trained on those s/w react negatively to Koha's interface... |
| 13:10 | shaun | kados: the only other bugbear is support - somebody needs to support this thing so that schools can afford it. |
| 13:11 | shedges | indrag, can you get all of a MARC record in AACR2? |
| 13:11 | kados | shaun: liblime.com ;-) |
| 13:11 | shaun | kados: you international now? :p |
| 13:11 | slef | "free and open source software"? |
| 13:11 | indradg | shaun, I'm displaying the member pic + specimen signature on the intranet interface at one of my installation |
| 13:11 | kados | shaun: sure ... but since you're in UK I'd check wtih slef first |
| 13:12 | slef | shaun: what you after a rate for? |
| 13:12 | feel free to msg if you prefer | |
| 13:12 | I'm sort-of here | |
| 13:12 | kados | :-) |
| 13:12 | indradg | all u really need is to add a couple of extra fields in the borrowers table and two extra lines in the tmpl file |
| 13:12 | slef | Anyone else notice the kohaweb address barfs an error back? |
| 13:12 | shaun | slef: a secondary school - do you do professional support? |
| 13:12 | owen | slef: which address? |
| 13:13 | slef | shaun: yes, either hourly or long-term contract. I'm very suspicious of schools, though (bad experiences). |
| 13:13 | owen: kohawebsupport.katipo.co.nz |
|
| 13:13 | shaun | slef: do you have a website for that? |
| 13:14 | owen | oh... haven't tried it. Maybe they neglected to get it set up yet |
| 13:14 | slef | shaun: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha/ and http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha.html I think, but the second isn't very up to date. Our own web site comes last. |
| 13:14 | owen: it says: | |
| 13:14 | RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow | |
| 13:14 | for the creation of a new user for your email. | |
| 13:14 | shedges | i sent some stuff, slef -- didn't bounce (2 days ago?) |
| 13:15 | slef | shedges: it must just not like me, then. :-/ |
| 13:15 | kados | someone must hav eforgot to run postalias ;-) |
| 13:15 | shaun | slef: which one are you? |
| 13:16 | slef | shaun: MJ Ray (sorry, I forgot to set IRCNAME again) |
| 13:16 | shaun | aah, i know you now ;-) |
| 13:17 | slef | Should I be scared and/or watch for the contract killers? |
| 13:17 | I've got to leave my terminal for a few minutes. Back in 20 or so. | |
| 13:23 | shaun | hehe... i'll be very surprised if this renders properly in IE without tweaking... |
| 14:31 | either it was a very long 20 minutes, or slef isn't verbose now. | |
| 15:04 | kados: you still there? 7PM GMT cuts off the people in New Zealand - that's 7AM in Wellington | |
| 15:05 | but all the same, 8PM is much better for me ;-) | |
| 15:08 | owen | It doesn't cut them off, it just makes it more inconvenient ;) |
| 15:08 | Just ask indradg | |
| 15:09 | shaun | hehe... but somehow i doubt whether the people at katipo (russ, rach and chris at least) will want to come into work early... |
| 15:11 | owen | I'm not saying you're not right about the time being to early, but I think they all telecommute :) |
| 15:15 | shaun | hehe |
| 15:16 | ah, the site is looking beautiful... i will have a first draft of the hp up on my staging server by the meeting, if the time stays the same. | |
| 15:16 | indradg | i should hit the bed... early day at work tomorrow |
| 15:19 | slef | Didn't notice anyone talking to me. I unset myself /away and then went to cook dinner |
| 15:21 | Can someone boot "KISS Madeleine \(OPOCE\)" <Madeleine.Kisscec.eu.int> from the list until she learns htf to use an autoreply? |
|
| 15:27 | shaun | how many international sites do we have now? |
| 15:28 | kados | how many international sites? |
| 15:29 | there's slef, paul, and liblime, then there's chris's blog and my blog | |
| 15:29 | if that's what you mean | |
| 15:31 | shaun | well, that makes two true international links, so i'll do a links list |
| 15:31 | is your blog a personal one or at liblime? | |
| 15:32 | indradg | slef, u been spew anti-s/w patent vitriol on the list ;) |
| 15:32 | s/spew/spewing/ | |
| 15:33 | g'nite folks... i'm off for good! | |
| 15:36 | kados | shaun: http://kados.org/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/blog/koha |
| 15:36 | shaun | ah, good old kados.org ;) |
| 15:37 | i can't remember what the outcome was of that discussion about communal blogging | |
| 15:37 | kados | owen has a blog ... it's just in chech ;-) |
| 15:37 | owen | Yeah, I wish. |
| 15:38 | kados | well I think it would be great to have a place on koha.org that grabbed our feeds in RSS and displayed them for all to see |
| 15:39 | owen | In fact I found a a blog entry that linked to me today, and it was all in Czech. I could barely read a word of it |
| 15:39 | shaun | thing is, how many devs can be bothered to set up rss feeds?... |
| 15:40 | owen | kados and chris, so far :) |
| 15:41 | kados | blogs.koha.org |
| 15:42 | hehe | |
| 15:42 | just an idea ;-) | |
| 15:42 | owen | I like the rss-grab idea, kados. |
| 15:43 | shaun | how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site |
| 15:44 | owen | It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account |
| 15:44 | If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed | |
| 15:45 | kados | yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented |
| 15:45 | shaun | having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo |
| 15:46 | kados | all koha.org would need is an xml parser |
| 15:46 | owen | shaun: Why do you say that? |
| 15:47 | shaun | then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...) |
| 15:48 | owen | Yeah, that's a good argument. |
| 15:48 | kados | chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed |
| 15:48 | shaun | I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems |
| 15:49 | owen | Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning |
| 15:50 | shaun | Then it could be more like a comfortable. passive medium between IRC and mailing lists - outsiders see what's actually going on. |
| 15:52 | it keeps katipo buildings warm.... especially if it uses flatfiles ;-) | |
| 15:53 | owen | ? |
| 15:55 | I guess shedges and I can't be logged in at the same time from this host :( | |
| 15:55 | kados | must be |
| 15:56 | shaun | doing the website... have you got any ideas for what navigation categories to use? at the moment I have * About |
| 15:56 | * The Product | |
| 15:56 | * Get Koha | |
| 15:56 | * Support | |
| 15:56 | * Documentation | |
| 15:56 | kados | * Demos |
| 15:56 | shaun | plus links to developers, test drive and downloads at the top |
| 15:56 | kados | * News |
| 15:56 | shaun | and links on the side |
| 15:57 | kados | faq |
| 15:57 | shaun | and news down the right hand column |
| 15:57 | faq, that's the one | |
| 15:57 | kados | how is 'about different than 'the product'? |
| 15:58 | shaun | hmm, i suppose it could be the disambiguation of "the Koha project" and "the Koha product" |
| 15:59 | i.e. about has how it came about, where it is used, while the product focuses on technical specifications, capabilities or features? | |
| 15:59 | kados | I understand the distinction ... but I'm not sure those terms are best to make it |
| 16:00 | shaun | Just "about" then? |
| 16:01 | kados | how about 'features' |
| 16:01 | and 'about the project' | |
| 16:01 | shaun | With the new site, I really want to change the attitude - to make Koha into something that you want to buy for your library and get shocked by the fact that it's free. |
| 16:01 | that's good, I'll use that | |
| 16:01 | kados | I agree |
| 16:02 | shaun | so hence I would like to separate off the developers' stuff - while still keeping it a friendly community. |
| 16:03 | kados | yep ... it would be good to have a development site and a 'koha marketing' site |
| 16:03 | let's hold off on this discussion until we have our real discussion -- you can jump start it by bringing it up in reply to my meeting call | |
| 16:03 | owen | So maybe a 'get involved' or 'for developers' link |
| 16:04 | shaun | this is more stuff that you should know about as RM than stuff specific to the design |
| 16:05 | kados | there's going to be a lot of overlap at our meetings |
| 16:05 | shaun | I will keep a "developers" link in the top right-hand corner - and when you go to download it there could be a "You can contribute to Koha..." message |
| 16:07 | The developers link should be to do with things like #koha, the mailing lists, CVS, job requests, and of course the blog ;-) | |
| 16:07 | kados | the koha mailing list is for the public |
| 16:07 | shaun | koha-dev, sorry |
| 16:07 | kados | right |
| 16:11 | shaun | how does documentation work? i.e. where does it stay at the moment, where is it going etc.? |
| 16:11 | kados | all documentation is at kohadocs.org |
| 16:12 | if you want you could do some fancy xml parsing of the docbook and make it look pretty for the main site | |
| 16:12 | shaun | so documentation would be better placed as a link, rather than a section of the site then... |
| 16:12 | kados | kinda like the mysql documentation |
| 16:12 | for now ... unless you want to get fancy | |
| 16:12 | shaun | but the site will use kea... |
| 16:13 | kados | whaat are you using kea for? |
| 16:13 | shaun | idinno, but the katipo people do |
| 16:14 | owen | shaun, have you talked to Russel about all this? |
| 16:14 | shaun | I would use good old php/mysql myself, but kea will be the choice i suppose... if the magic is all done at katipo |
| 16:15 | no - russel is inconveniently at the opposite time zone to me... | |
| 16:15 | kados | email ;-) |
| 16:16 | owen | shaun, all your plans aren't going anywhere if you don't get in touch with Russel, I'm guessing. |
| 16:16 | Spooky. | |
| 16:16 | shaun | hi russ |
| 16:16 | uncanny... | |
| 16:16 | russ | morning |
| 16:17 | kados | russ must have been tipped of by someone at katipo |
| 16:17 | shaun | the design is beautiful, russ... but i suppose that's a matter of opinion |
| 16:18 | so, can we talk about kea? | |
| 16:18 | russ | yeah si tipped me off :-) |
| 16:18 | yep sure | |
| 16:18 | i have to go in about 20 mins though | |
| 16:18 | to do some kea training for clients, as it happens | |
| 16:19 | shaun | I'm not sure how kea works... 'spose you don't do free copies ;) |
| 16:19 | russ | ah we would love to be in a posistion to open source kea |
| 16:20 | but it doesnt have a simple installer that you can run | |
| 16:20 | owen | shaun, start with "I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site?" ;) |
| 16:20 | russ | and we need to do some tidying up on it |
| 16:20 | shaun | what language is it in? |
| 16:20 | I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site. Very, very interested. | |
| 16:20 | russ | ok cool |
| 16:21 | what is your skill set shaun - i am a web developer / designer how has migrated into project management | |
| 16:21 | s/how/who | |
| 16:22 | kados | russ: is that the only reason it's not open source? ;-) |
| 16:22 | russ | no you'd have top ask chris more on that one |
| 16:23 | crikey you can tell i havent had a coffee this morning - my typing is lousy | |
| 16:23 | chris | kados: its an inhouse project, and as such has all the problems inherent with that |
| 16:23 | kados | gotcha |
| 16:23 | chris | basically its never been released |
| 16:24 | russ | on reflection we should have open sourced it 3-4 years ago |
| 16:24 | but anyway... | |
| 16:24 | chris | so its a bit of a mess :) |
| 16:24 | shaun | I started out in design, I do web development now too - php is my first language, then english, and im learning perl for the purpose of koha. my open source experience includes contributor to apache forrest and leader of fles. |
| 16:24 | russ | cool |
| 16:26 | ok so where to start i guess | |
| 16:26 | shaun | I was also doing the openoffice.org redesign for a while... but stopped because they are all closed-minded b******s |
| 16:26 | russ | if you want to read some stuff about kea, we have broucherware type stuff on the katipo website |
| 16:27 | http://www.katipo.co.nz/soluti[…]gement/index.html | |
| 16:27 | and we have online tutorials | |
| 16:27 | http://www.katipo.co.nz/clients/helpdesk/ | |
| 16:27 | shaun | yes, i have read through all of that - I am interested in the tech specs - how templates are integrated, how it manages content and what formats it uses etc. |
| 16:28 | kados | chris: is kea built off html::template? |
| 16:29 | russ | before we go too far down this path - we here at katipo aren't too fussy about koha.org continuing to use kea |
| 16:29 | chris | not really no |
| 16:30 | shaun | what could we use? |
| 16:30 | kados | i like html::template |
| 16:30 | ;-) | |
| 16:30 | shaun | my personal opinion: PHP/MySQL all the way... |
| 16:30 | kados | that's what the liblime site uses |
| 16:30 | russ | i'd have to talk to chris about other systems |
| 16:30 | shaun | what are the advantages of using kea? |
| 16:31 | chris | tons |
| 16:31 | shaun | hehe... carry on |
| 16:31 | chris | you have a live site and edit site |
| 16:31 | russ | i think we better do up an email to the list |
| 16:31 | chris | changes you make dont go live until you trigger them |
| 16:31 | its backended by cvs | |
| 16:31 | russ | it generates real html pages so proper urls |
| 16:31 | chris | so you can revert to any version of any page |
| 16:32 | shaun | so as the backend does it use xml? |
| 16:32 | russ | you can set up page reviews to remind you that you need to go and check a page |
| 16:32 | chris | no |
| 16:32 | shaun | what does it use? |
| 16:32 | kados | sounds sweet |
| 16:32 | chris | whatever the file is |
| 16:32 | kados | I like the cvs backend |
| 16:32 | chris | html, pdf, etc |
| 16:32 | shaun | so how do you do templating? |
| 16:33 | chris | with a mysql database to track the files and cvs |
| 16:33 | you build some kea templates | |
| 16:33 | russ | we use html pages constructed with ssi |
| 16:33 | chris | and when you choose in kea to create a new page, you choose which template |
| 16:33 | russ | it also has some smart tags that do things like navigation and breadcrumbs for you |
| 16:34 | chris | what? |
| 16:35 | im not sure what you mean shaun | |
| 16:35 | shaun | nvm, regionalised joke |
| 16:36 | so can kea manage multiple sites (e.g. "sales" and developer sites)? | |
| 16:36 | chris | its managing about 70 sites at the moment |
| 16:36 | russ | something like 300 users |
| 16:36 | by user i mean content editors | |
| 16:37 | owen | Man, to heck with open-sourcing this thing. Sounds like you need to sell it! ;) |
| 16:37 | shaun | I meant, like subdomains... developers.koha.org, www.koha.org |
| 16:37 | chris | yep thats no problem shaun |
| 16:37 | having talked kea up, i also think koha.org would be a good site to try opencms on | |
| 16:38 | russ | yeah like i said before - we are keen to try something else |
| 16:38 | and opencms looks pretty cool | |
| 16:38 | shaun | and can particular parts be dynamic by themselves, e.g. www.koha.org/blogs or blogs.koha.org which use a separate php system, for example? and, even better, can kea grab dynamic content from another system with a database backend? (i suppose that asks a bit much) |
| 16:39 | russ | well cos you have two websites |
| 16:40 | you can have kea triggering to the sales website and then if you want other stuff installed on the live site you can do that | |
| 16:40 | for all our dynamic stuff - like koha for example | |
| 16:40 | we store the template files in a kea site so that we can roll back and manage who is editing them | |
| 16:41 | shaun | hmm... i have been blind so far, concentrating on the design - should i assume that the cms will be able to cope? |
| 16:41 | russ | but i think if a website redesign is what everyone is after |
| 16:41 | then dont worry about the cms | |
| 16:41 | yeah that is always our approach shaun | |
| 16:41 | our designer is not a technical person at all | |
| 16:41 | slef | uh |
| 16:42 | blogs | |
| 16:42 | shaun | excellent |
| 16:42 | blogs... yes | |
| 16:42 | slef | did no-one want me to set up an otherwayup aggregator of them? |
| 16:42 | shaun | russ and chris, have you seen the logs for today (this morning for you)? |
| 16:42 | russ | no sorry - i have been watching the british lions play the pumas (rugby) :-) |
| 16:43 | slef | otherwayup is running schycyroll/mabloss, which I know is theoretically sound in its blog calculus |
| 16:43 | shaun | owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados. |
| 16:43 | shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site | |
| 16:43 | owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account | |
| 16:43 | owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed | |
| 16:43 | kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented | |
| 16:43 | shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo | |
| 16:43 | kados all koha.org would need is an xml parser | |
| 16:43 | owen shaun: Why do you say that? | |
| 16:43 | shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...) | |
| 16:43 | owen Yeah, that's a good argument. | |
| 16:43 | * owen wonders if it could be both at once... | |
| 16:43 | kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed | |
| 16:43 | shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems | |
| 16:43 | slef | it can accept RDF Site Summary and (at a push) Really Simple Syndication |
| 16:43 | shaun | owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning |
| 16:44 | slef | shaun: paste error |
| 16:44 | shaun | sorry! |
| 16:44 | russ: wdyt? | |
| 16:48 | russ | sorry guys i have to go |
| 16:48 | i'll be back in a couple of hours and read the logs | |
| 16:48 | shaun | ok bye russ, i'll be gone by then though |
| 16:50 | I'm off to bed | |
| 16:50 | bye all | |
| 16:50 | kados | cya |
| 16:59 | rach | morning |
| 16:59 | kados | morning rach |
| 16:59 | is that time slot too early for you? | |
| 17:00 | I got my NZ time confused by an hour | |
| 17:00 | rach | it'll be 7am |
| 17:00 | so not too bad | |
| 17:00 | just might not be too coherant until the cafine kicks in :-) | |
| 17:00 | kados | cool |
| 17:00 | :-) | |
| 17:01 | shedges | hi rach |
| 17:01 | rach | hi stephen |
| 17:01 | it's good - should be all done by the time the phone starts ringing here around 9am | |
| 17:28 | morning rosalie | |
| 17:39 | rosa | hi rach |
| 17:39 | 7am meeting?? | |
| 17:39 | rach | yerg |
| 17:39 | lucky it's a 2 min commute and we don't have web cams here :-) | |
| 17:40 | rosa | :-) |
| 19:02 | kados | chris around? |
| 19:02 | chris | slightly |
| 19:02 | kados | I"m working on this Koha install and I've run into something I've not seen before ... I"ve ot Options +FollowSymLinks in my koha.conf file but I'm getting the error: ymbolic link not allowed: |
| 19:02 | yikes on the spelling ;-) | |
| 19:03 | any ideas? | |
| 19:03 | chris | you have <Location /> |
| 19:03 | Options +FollowSymLinks | |
| 19:03 | </Location> | |
| 19:03 | ? | |
| 19:03 | kados | ahh ... that must be it |
| 19:03 | chris | might not be |
| 19:03 | kados | it's lilnked to a directory? |
| 19:04 | I thought it was a virtualhost setting | |
| 19:04 | chris | you usually define it for a location or a directory |
| 19:04 | (it works on all below as well of course) | |
| 19:04 | so <Directory /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs> | |
| 19:04 | would be another way .. at least thats the habit im in | |
| 19:05 | kados | cool thanks |
| 19:05 | chris | lemme know if it works |
| 19:05 | i just go for the easy answer first :) | |
| 19:07 | kados | <Directory /var/www/koha22> |
| 19:07 | Options +FollowSymLinks | |
| 19:07 | </Directory> | |
| 19:07 | still get the same error | |
| 19:07 | chris | maybe ur not allowed to override |
| 19:08 | kados | ahh ... that would be in the main httpd.conf |
| 19:08 | chris | yeah |
| 19:08 | worht checking | |
| 19:09 | kados | <Directory /> |
| 19:09 | Options FollowSymLinks | |
| 19:09 | AllowOverride none | |
| 19:09 | </Directory> | |
| 19:09 | that's in the main httpd.conf | |
| 19:09 | I changed it to 'all' and it still gives me the error after restarting apache | |
| 19:09 | chris | hmm dunno whats up then sorry |
| 19:10 | kados | ta |
| 19:27 | I found the problem | |
| 19:27 | really strange | |
| 19:28 | my symlinked dirs were linnked to dirs in /root | |
| 19:28 | apparantly someone didn't like that ;-) | |
| 19:28 | and it wasn't selinux cause that's disabled | |
| 19:35 | chris | cool |
| 19:35 | kados | Bristol said they would move to Koha if they could get rid of itsmarc |
| 19:35 | i said that Koha's cataloging tools aren't up to par (cause they aren'tfor MARC) | |
| 19:36 | but it might not take much to get them there | |
| 19:36 | chris | nope |
| 19:36 | kados | (and the state might sponser it) |
| 19:36 | chris | just a nicer interface |
| 19:36 | kados | yep |
| 19:37 | it looks like they maintain their own mirrors of free databases | |
| 19:38 | I don't see an ITSMARC- database | |
| 19:44 | plucene note: we could have an index on 'shelf location' and automatically launch a search for nearby items for each of the results | |
| 19:44 | chris | hmm yeah |
| 19:45 | i was thinking that plucene will be most useful stuff that doesnt change | |
| 19:45 | frequently | |
| 19:45 | so no item based fields | |
| 19:45 | if that makes sense | |
| 19:45 | kados | yep |
| 19:45 | chris | we dont want to tell someone something is on the shelf when its just been loaned out |
| 19:45 | kados | I agree ... unless there's some really fast way to do indexes that's undocumented |
| 19:45 | also ... it's kinda pokey | |
| 19:46 | (15 minutes till I optimize the index | |
| 19:46 | chris | so query plucene for biblio data |
| 19:46 | kados | (then we can do real tests) |
| 19:46 | chris | and then once u have a bunch of biblionumbers |
| 19:46 | u can find out item stuff | |
| 19:47 | kados | exactly |
| 19:47 | chris do you think I could just run optimize without rebuilding the inde? | |
| 19:49 | chris | yeah i reckon so |
| 19:50 | not sure how tho :) | |
| 19:50 | 2 secs | |
| 19:50 | man will tell me | |
| 19:50 | my $writer = Plucene::Index::Writer->new($path, $analyser, $creat | |
| 19:50 | e); | |
| 19:50 | This will create a new Plucene::Index::Writer object. | |
| 19:50 | The third argument to the constructor determines whether a new index is | |
| 19:50 | created, or whether an existing index is opened for the addition of new | |
| 19:51 | documents. | |
| 19:51 | so i reckon | |
| 19:51 | kados | ahh ... so 1 is create |
| 19:51 | chris | yep |
| 19:51 | and im guessing 0 is use existing | |
| 19:51 | kados | ok ... I'll give it a shot |
| 19:54 | shedges | kados: Bristol could keep their Bibliofile software for a fraction of the cost of the complete ITSMarc. |
| 19:54 | kados | well ... it's doing something ;-) |
| 19:54 | what kind of fraction? | |
| 19:54 | :-) | |
| 19:54 | shedges | I'd have to look at the numbers for NPL |
| 19:54 | I think it's about 1/10 | |
| 19:54 | kados | would their cataloging workflow be affected? (I really need to talk with the catalogers someday soon) |
| 19:55 | well that would probably do it | |
| 19:55 | chris | thats a goodly saving |
| 19:55 | shedges | right, 'cause they've already done what Bristol wants to do! |
| 19:55 | kados | Bibliofile is TLS? |
| 19:56 | shedges | yep |
| 19:56 | kados | TLC even? |
| 19:56 | shedges | (the old name) |
| 19:56 | kados | so ITSMARC is just a TCL-maintained database ... the library can still use Bibliofile to access free sources |
| 19:56 | it's amazing how many libraries are falling for this ;-) | |
| 19:56 | shedges | They don't advertise that you can still buy a license for just Bibliofile |
| 19:57 | You need BookWhere to grab records, but that's cheap. | |
| 19:57 | kados | maybe we should set up a mirrored database of LOC and some other large Z39.50 databases and charge to access it ;-) |
| 19:57 | shedges | Bibliofile is the MARC editor / saver |
| 19:57 | kados | ahh |
| 19:57 | gotcha | |
| 19:57 | brb ... dinner overheating ;-) | |
| 19:58 | shedges | if only there was a way to speed up Koha's cataloging... |
| 19:59 | (biab) | |
| 20:23 | kados: I remember now that WebClarity Software (the BookWhere people) also have started offering a MARC editor that can be added to BookWhere -- http://www.webclarity.info/pro[…]/marcnotepad.html | |
| 21:05 | dean2 | Richard, you there? |
| 21:06 | http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aaq | |
| 21:06 | http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aap?full=1 | |
| 21:06 | chris | dean .. wrong channel |
| 21:06 | u want to be over in #katipo :) | |
| 21:06 | dean2 | lol |
| 21:07 | oops | |
| 21:50 | kados | well after the optimize I think it's faster |
| 21:50 | http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]h.cgi?query=bears | |
| 21:50 | but still not fast enough | |
| 22:17 | chris: from the lucene list I'm getting the feeling the plucene is not as fast as lucene ... I may try to install the java version and see how that works | |
| 22:22 | chris | i suspect that will make integration quite a bit harder |
| 22:24 | but it might be worth it if the speed is a big improvement | |
| 22:24 | i reckon u can still halve the speed by not handing the template all the results | |
| 22:24 | sorry double the speed | |
| 22:25 | kados | right ... but even with a small result set searches are taking 4 secs ... I was hoping for instant searching like with google |
| 22:25 | chris | right |
| 22:25 | kados | we're only talking about 150,000 items here |
| 22:25 | chris | yep |
| 22:25 | kados | we should be able to return stuff really fast |
| 22:25 | chris | hmm |
| 22:26 | there is all sorts of overhead | |
| 22:27 | and google have some serious hardware and an algortithm they wont tell anyone about | |
| 22:27 | its a good aim .. but will be hard to achieve | |
| 22:27 | 2 seconds id be happy with | |
| 22:29 | indradg | kados, chris : wat exactly are u planning with a plucene / lucene search? |
| 22:29 | chris | im not really planning anything ye |
| 22:29 | t | |
| 22:29 | just exploring possibilities | |
| 22:29 | indradg | sorry if I dont make sense... just woke up and yet to have my first cup of tea :P |
| 22:30 | kados | right ... indradg have you seen my arguments for switching our search engine from SLQ to textual? |
| 22:30 | indradg | right |
| 22:30 | chris | i dont know if thats even the way to go too |
| 22:30 | it may be that we need to build special search tables | |
| 22:30 | kados | http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.p[…]rmnotes#searching |
| 22:30 | right ... | |
| 22:30 | chris | basically we want to speed up searching |
| 22:31 | kados | and add functionality |
| 22:31 | chris | and we are looking for any ideas on how to do it |
| 22:31 | kados | boolian, etc. |
| 22:31 | chris | yep |
| 22:31 | add features while not slowing down | |
| 22:31 | kados | we need a KOha search syntax |
| 22:31 | chris | i could do boolean tomorrow, but searches would take longer .. thats the problem |
| 22:31 | indradg | have u tried out Namazu ? |
| 22:31 | chris | i havent |
| 22:32 | indradg | do check it out... in case you are looking at full-text indexing |
| 22:33 | chris | its a tricky one |
| 22:33 | and what makes it tricky to do in sql is like '%something' | |
| 22:33 | since as soon as you do that | |
| 22:33 | kados | no indexes |
| 22:33 | chris | bang mysql cant use an index |
| 22:34 | and unfortunately patrons never remember the names of authors and books properly ;) | |
| 22:34 | if we could do author='something' | |
| 22:34 | no problem :) | |
| 22:35 | joshua, u might know this | |
| 22:35 | in marc_word | |
| 22:35 | is author split up? | |
| 22:35 | chris,cormack | |
| 22:35 | becomes 2 rows | |
| 22:35 | kados | yep |
| 22:35 | chris | right |
| 22:35 | kados | so we need to do a join |
| 22:35 | and that's costly | |
| 22:36 | chris | oh its split over 2 tables? |
| 22:36 | kados | no ... but you need a join to do two terms |
| 22:36 | chris | you do? |
| 22:36 | im thinking | |
| 22:36 | kados | :-) |
| 22:36 | chris | i type |
| 22:36 | chris cormack | |
| 22:37 | indradg | i'm using Namazu for a full-text indexed search through about 25 GBs of autofs-mounted ISO images which are linked to 856u field in my catalog |
| 22:37 | kados | well you can't do select from marc_word where tagsubfield=245a and value=chris and value=cormack |
| 22:37 | chris | ahh theres no ordering involved? |
| 22:37 | kados | you need to join on the same table |
| 22:37 | chris | yikes |
| 22:37 | kados | ordering? |
| 22:37 | chris | thats a big table |
| 22:37 | kados | yep ... it's huge |
| 22:38 | chris | and then u double it |
| 22:38 | kados | yep |
| 22:38 | or triple | |
| 22:38 | etc. | |
| 22:38 | chris | i was thinking it was 245a 1 and 245a 2 |
| 22:38 | indradg | hmmm |
| 22:38 | kados | nope |
| 22:38 | chris | suck |
| 22:39 | if it was you could do it with ors and and | |
| 22:39 | kados | it gets even more complicated with the 'see also' |
| 22:40 | so you normally just do 245a ... but there's a bunch more places author can be stored in MARC | |
| 22:40 | chris | ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=chris) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=2 and value=chris)) and ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack)) |
| 22:40 | somethign like that | |
| 22:40 | kados | and you don't want to miss any of them |
| 22:40 | chris | yeah |
| 22:40 | we should look at namazu | |
| 22:40 | 25gb is a lot | |
| 22:40 | is it fast indradg ? | |
| 22:41 | kados | hehe |
| 22:41 | indradg | chris, yep! |
| 22:42 | kados | it's got deb packages too ;-) |
| 22:42 | indradg | the initial index creation is a bit of a killer.... too abt 6 hrs or so to finish... so I left it on as an over-night job and went home ;) |
| 22:43 | s/too/took/ | |
| 22:43 | chris | right |
| 22:44 | kados | indradg: so you've integrated this with Koha already? |
| 22:44 | chris | id expect that .. my theory is that if you want fast searches building hte indexes will take time |
| 22:44 | indradg | kados, not really... I integrated the namazu cgi interface into my CMS frontend to the library |
| 22:45 | kados | can we try it out somewhere? |
| 22:52 | chris: http://lucene.apache.org/java/[…]s/benchmarks.html | |
| 22:54 | it's entirely possible that the reason it takes google so long to update is that it's index is running thw hole time ;-) | |
| 22:54 | whole even ;-) | |
| 22:54 | rankings that is ... not new stuff | |
| 22:54 | chris | yeah |
| 23:00 | kados | huh ... wikipedia uses lucene |
| 23:23 | indradg | kados, got disconnected... did u get my last msg |
| 23:24 | kados | indradg: no |
| 23:24 | indradg | indradg kados, try this -> http://59.93.161.79/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi |
| 23:24 | indradg CSS is screwed up at the moment | |
| 23:24 | indradg and use the ICONIP repository and u can search on genes, algorithms, gene expression, genome, artificial intelligence | |
| 23:26 | kados | that's the kind of speed I'm talking about! |
| 23:26 | so could you send me your indexer? | |
| 23:27 | (and the cgi too) | |
| 23:27 | indradg | brb... on oh |
| 23:27 | ph | |
| 23:27 | kados | k |
| 23:36 | indradg | back |
| 23:38 | kados | cool |
| 23:38 | indradg | kados, i haven't done anything extra in this demo ... d/led Namazu, dumped a CD full of documents, used the cmd-line indexer of Namazu, put the CGI script in the place u want and bingo! ur search engine is ready, sans any customization |
| 23:38 | kados | right |
| 23:38 | so we'd have to dump out the titles into files right? | |
| 23:38 | indradg | yes |
| 23:39 | kados | I wonder if we can put 150,000 files in one directory |
| 23:39 | chris | be worth looking at the docs |
| 23:39 | indradg | yep |
| 23:39 | kados | and how does it know 'title' 'author' 'date' etc? |
| 23:39 | were the files XML? | |
| 23:40 | chris | rtfm :) |
| 23:40 | kados | :-) |
| 23:40 | indradg | nope... the files in my case are pdfs and rpms |
| 23:40 | chris | i havent had the chance to say that for ages :) |
| 23:40 | kados | hehe |
| 23:40 | indradg | namazu will index thru the text desc in RPM headers as well |
| 23:40 | chris | thats cool |
| 23:41 | indradg | we might need a marc file indexer |
| 23:41 | chris | im hoping there is a framework you can use to build a harverster that it can use to index |
| 23:41 | yeah | |
| 23:41 | indradg | but what is MARC.pm for ? ;) |
| 23:43 | chris | Document filters |
| 23:43 | mknmz automatically identifies target file types and performs the appropriate document filtering. For HTML documents, filtering includes the extraction of <title> or the deletion of HTML tags. The filtering is dealt with by document filters in $(datadir)/$(PACKAGE)/filter. The standard document filters are described below. | |
| 23:43 | so we could use kohas export to marc feature | |
| 23:43 | and then write a marc filter perhaps | |
| 23:43 | kados | I think there's a MARC2XML somewhere out there |
| 23:44 | if that would make it easier | |
| 23:44 | I"ve really got to get some sleep ;-) | |
| 23:44 | indradg: thanks for the tips | |
| 23:44 | indradg | np :) |
| 23:44 | chris | night kados |
| 23:45 | indradg | nite kados |
| 23:45 | rach | nite |
| 23:45 | kados | g'nite all |
| 02:38 | paul | (hdl, tu m'appelles en visio ?) |
| 02:38 | hdl | hi |
| 02:40 | michael | bonjour ;-) |
| 02:44 | j'aurais une contribution à proposer concernant Koha | |
| 02:44 | une contribution typiquement "discothécaire" il s'agit d'une "liste d'autorité" | |
| 02:44 | il serait possible que je la saisisse afin qu'elle puisse être réutilisable après coup par des BM | |
| 02:46 | ... il s'agit de l'index PCDM 4 qui est utilisé dans le champ 686 pour indexer les docs sonores musicaux | |
| 02:46 | http://discothecaires.ouvaton.[…]hp3?id_article=74 | |
| 02:46 | cette index PCDM 4 = Principe de Classification des Documents Musicaux version 4 | |
| 02:46 | est présent dans le livre "pro" Musiques en bibliothèques (éd. Cercle de la Librairie) | |
| 02:47 | je ne veux pas vous importuner mais je me disais que si qqn (moi en l'occurence) pouvait saisir cette liste fermée | |
| 02:47 | et l'exporter sous forme .sql ça pourrait franchement faire gagner du temps à d'autres bibliothèques qui souhaiteraient indexer leurs fonds de docs sonores | |
| 02:47 | avec cette indexation PCDM 4... vous voyez où je veux en venir? | |
| 02:47 | ou je suis pas clair du tout ? | |
| 02:48 | la PCDM4 est comme une Dewey bcp moins complexe mais adpatée aux docs sonores | |
| 02:51 | cette liste pourrait être saisie là : ../admin/authorised_values.pl | |
| 02:51 | et si elle est exportable en .sql c'est royal ;-) | |
| 02:51 | après i faut "l'associer" au champ UNIMARC 686... et elle est full-fonctionnelle | |
| 02:58 | bieng... je pars au travail... je vais voir si c'est vraiment viable comme idée et pense le proposer sur la liste ? | |
| 02:58 | bon courage pour cette semaine ;-) | |
| 03:19 | hdl | paul, on m'a dit qu'un mémoire avait été fait à Bordeaux mis en ligne sur Wikipédia et qui parle de Koha de façon élogieuse et développée. Tu savais ? |
| 03:19 | paul | non. |
| 03:19 | hdl | on = fr. Vianney |
| 03:20 | et que Linux Pratique y avait consacré un article. | |
| 03:20 | C'est pour ajouter au Linux Today de S Hedges. | |
| 03:22 | Au fait, il y a des lists bibliothèques Fr auxquelles il faut que je m'abonne... Tu peux m'indiquer lesquelles ? | |
| 03:23 | paul | je trouve pas sur wikipedia |
| 03:23 | http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/C[…]iblioth%C3%A8ques | |
| 03:23 | ADBS-INFOS | |
| 03:23 | et biblio-fr | |
| 03:23 | et puis il y a biblioacid.org | |
| 03:24 | (tenu par nicolas Morin, entre autres) | |
| 03:24 | Sylvain | hdl tu as eu le lien avant que je ne sois déconnecté ? |
| 03:31 | ?? | |
| 03:34 | paul | (rien vu) |
| 03:34 | (sylvain) | |
| 03:35 | Sylvain | http://wikisource.org/wiki/Les[…]_en_documentation pour le mémoire de Sébastien Thébault, je pense que c'est cleui dont tu parlais (tu l'as peut être trouvé depuis ...) |
| 03:44 | hdl | merci sylvain. |
| 03:50 | biblioacid.org n'est pas référencé sur Google.fr | |
| 04:08 | rach | bonjou - what is "Diffusion de contenu en ligne" |
| 04:08 | http://216.239.39.104/translat[…]%25C3%25A9vidents | |
| 04:08 | and only the wiki has it | |
| 04:09 | si | Diffusion of contents on line |
| 04:10 | is what babelfish has to say | |
| 04:10 | rach | yes I got that - but what do you think it means? |
| 04:10 | si | but I suspect that doesn't help a great deal |
| 04:10 | Sylvain | It seems to be the ability for users to publish themselves |
| 04:10 | si | that was what I was going to guess |
| 04:10 | Sylvain | it would be correct as only mediawiki gets the cross for it |
| 04:10 | si | sbstitute distribution for diffusion |
| 04:10 | Sylvain | s/would/should |
| 04:10 | rach | ah yes |
| 04:12 | ta | |
| 07:41 | kados | hello all |
| 08:34 | paul | hi kados (perfect french in your mail to infos ;-) ) |
| 08:40 | kados | thanks ;-) |
| 09:37 | slef | can someone set a text colour on the irc logs, please? |
| 09:37 | yellow on yellow is a bit hard to read :-/ | |
| 09:54 | kados | http://www.oclc.org/research/p[…]xisbn/default.htm |
| 09:55 | owen | What's the ISBN problem? |
| 09:55 | kados | well like with amazon content ... if we don't have the exact edition that amazon has we can't display their content for the item (even if it's the same 'biblio') |
| 09:56 | xISBN finds all 'related' ISBNs given one ISBN | |
| 09:56 | owen | So you could list similar versions of a book when looking at the detail screen |
| 09:56 | kados | right |
| 09:57 | there are lots of possibilities ... | |
| 09:57 | this is one of those things that I was going to start myself (that I probably would never have gotten around to) | |
| 09:58 | kinda like my idea for the P2P cataloging software with integrated MARC editior ;-) | |
| 09:58 | owen | Yeah, written in XUL! |
| 09:58 | kados | there's an idea I had what ... like 5 years ago |
| 09:58 | yea .. XUL would be the way to go ;-) | |
| 09:59 | owen | slef: I don't see any yellow on yellow in the logs |
| 10:01 | hdl | paul : Pour les grilles, ca yest, j'affiche cela dans le mar_top.inc. Mais je voudrais utiliser un tableau pour faire apparaître cela dans la même ligne que le login. Mais le tableau me donne automatiquement des bordures, même quand je les paramètres à 0... ! |
| 10:01 | paul | commite en l'état, je regarderai |
| 10:07 | Sylvain | Little question : what is for you the best way to store titles of a cd for example or novels in a book in order to help the search for member ? |
| 10:08 | owen | Doesn't a keyword search pick these up if they're in a notes field? |
| 10:08 | Sylvain | er maybe, in fact it's a question which has been asked to me, I've never done cataloguing so I was looking for an idea |
| 10:08 | ;) | |
| 10:09 | I'm going to have a look at note field | |
| 10:10 | owen | One of the problems we ran into was that the notes weren't displayed by the details screen. |
| 10:11 | Sylvain | :( it is less intersting then ... |
| 10:15 | owen | Sylvain: I'm wrong--it looks like 2.2 displays all the notes correctly |
| 10:15 | http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]ail.pl?bib=143335 | |
| 10:16 | Sylvain | ok, thanks a lot, seems to be a good answer for my custoer |
| 10:16 | +m | |
| 10:20 | owen | friendly time-zone-appropriate greeting, shaun! |
| 10:21 | shaun | hi (it works all the time) |
| 10:23 | darn... rach joined about 8 minutes after I left last night... | |
| 10:25 | Sylvain | 2.2.3 roadmap seems intersting paul :) |
| 10:25 | paul | ;-) |
| 10:26 | Sylvain | 2 times I try writing interesting in 3 lines and two times I miss it :) |
| 10:27 | shaun | is there anybody knowledgeable/authoritative about the new site's launch date? I was thinking about making it accompany 2.4 - make it something big |
| 10:28 | get slashdotted ;-) | |
| 10:31 | owen | I guess it all depends on when you finish it, shaun ;) |
| 10:32 | shaun | the concept art consists of quite a bit of stuff advertising the 2.4 release |
| 10:37 | slef | owen: it's actually default-on-yellow, but my default text colour is yellow-on-navy (easier to read, usually). |
| 10:59 | hdl | Paul : Pourquoi ne pas permettre de lier des types d'éléments à des fwk pour aider à la saisie ?? On aurait un élément Type dans les biblio_Framework et on l'ajouterait automatiquement au 686 a ou autre champ MARC type de document...? Une idée en passant. |
| 11:00 | paul | on me l'a déjà suggéré, hdl ;-) (à voir plus tard, sur la 2.4, vu que ca change la BD) |
| 11:17 | hdl | OK paul. Pour obtenir la valeur d'une liste de choix <Select> dans une page HTML, on fait comment ? |
| 11:28 | Kados, how do you use a selected value in the same HTML page ? Does One HAS TO use a Javascript ? Or Can you get the vaule with an HTML Trick ? | |
| 11:28 | owen | hdl, what do you mean? (I think kados is away from his computer) |
| 11:32 | hdl | One has a select choice to make in an HTML page, |
| 11:33 | For Instance, Mr or Mrs, Can I make the value appear elsewhere in th HTML Page... without using Javascript .... | |
| 11:33 | owen | No. You've got to use Javascript. |
| 11:34 | hdl | Thanks for playing anyway. |
| 11:34 | ;) | |
| 11:34 | owen | Why not use Javascript? |
| 11:34 | hdl | While saying this, it seemed so Obvious. |
| 11:35 | I didn't want to make too many little Javascript Functions. | |
| 11:35 | Sorry. | |
| 11:35 | owen | Yeah, I know what you mean. |
| 11:41 | hdl | Moreover, I am touching Code within buttons and didn't want to break anything !!! |
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